IRC log of CSS on 2010-02-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:29:43 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #CSS
16:29:43 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/02/10-CSS-irc
16:31:47 [glazou_sick]: Zakim, this will be Style
16:31:47 [Zakim]: ok, glazou_sick; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 29 minutes
16:31:58 [glazou_sick]: RRSAgent, make logs public
16:33:11 [plinss]: plinss has joined #css
16:54:01 [Zakim]: Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
16:54:08 [Zakim]: + +1.408.398.aaaa
16:54:33 [dsinger_]: dsinger_ has joined #css
16:54:47 [dsinger_]: zakim, who is here?
16:54:47 [Zakim]: On the phone I see +1.408.398.aaaa
16:54:48 [Zakim]: On IRC I see dsinger_, plinss, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou_sick, shepazu, anne, szilles, CesarAcebal, TabAtkins, Bert, karl, Hixie, fantasai, trackbot, krijnh, Lachy, arronei
16:55:29 [Zakim]: + +1.858.216.aabb
16:55:39 [plinss]: zakim, aabb is me
16:55:39 [Zakim]: +plinss; got it
16:55:48 [dethbakin]: dethbakin has joined #css
16:55:49 [dsinger_]: zakim, mute dsinger_
16:55:49 [Zakim]: sorry, dsinger_, I do not know which phone connection belongs to dsinger_
16:56:18 [plinss]: zakim, aaaa is dsinger_
16:56:18 [Zakim]: +dsinger_; got it
16:56:18 [dsinger_]: Zakim, 398.aaaa is dsinger_
16:56:19 [Zakim]: sorry, dsinger_, I do not recognize a party named '398.aaaa'
16:56:25 [sylvaing]: sylvaing has joined #css
16:56:33 [plinss]: rrsagent, make logs public
16:56:40 [oyvind]: oyvind has joined #css
16:56:43 [dsinger_]: zakim, mute dsinger_
16:56:43 [Zakim]: dsinger_ should now be muted
16:56:56 [dsinger_]: Zakim, thank you
16:56:57 [Zakim]: you are very welcome, dsinger_
16:56:57 [Zakim]: + +95089aacc
16:57:05 [glazou_sick]: Zakim: aacc is me
16:57:11 [Zakim]: + +1.617.650.aadd
16:57:12 [glazou_sick]: Zakim, aacc is me
16:57:12 [Zakim]: +glazou_sick; got it
16:57:33 [dethbakin]: +1.617.650.aadd is me
16:57:48 [Zakim]: + +1.206.324.aaee
16:57:56 [sylvaing]: Zakim, aaee is sylvaing
16:57:56 [Zakim]: +sylvaing; got it
16:59:45 [Zakim]: -dsinger_
17:00:17 [Zakim]: + +1.408.636.aaff
17:00:31 [smfr]: smfr has joined #css
17:00:45 [Zakim]: +dsinger_
17:01:03 [dsinger_]: dsinger_ has joined #css
17:01:17 [plinss]: zakim, who is on the phone?
17:01:17 [Zakim]: On the phone I see plinss, glazou_sick, +1.617.650.aadd, sylvaing, +1.408.636.aaff, dsinger_
17:01:24 [dsinger_]: zakim, mute dsinger_
17:01:24 [Zakim]: dsinger_ should now be muted
17:01:30 [plinss]: zakim, aadd is dethbakin
17:01:30 [Zakim]: +dethbakin; got it
17:01:40 [smfr]: Zakim, aaff is me
17:01:40 [Zakim]: +smfr; got it
17:01:47 [dsinger_]: zakim, who is here?
17:01:47 [Zakim]: On the phone I see plinss, glazou_sick, dethbakin, sylvaing, smfr, dsinger_ (muted)
17:01:50 [Zakim]: On IRC I see dsinger_, smfr, oyvind, sylvaing, dethbakin, plinss, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou_sick, shepazu, anne, szilles, CesarAcebal, TabAtkins, Bert, karl, Hixie, fantasai,
17:01:53 [Zakim]: ... trackbot, krijnh, Lachy, arronei
17:01:53 [Zakim]: + +34.60.940.aagg
17:02:19 [CesarAcebal]: zakim, aagg is me.
17:02:19 [Zakim]: +CesarAcebal; got it
17:02:45 [Zakim]: + +1.281.712.aahh
17:02:50 [dbaron]: dbaron has joined #css
17:02:51 [TabAtkins]: Zakim, aahh is me.
17:02:51 [Zakim]: +TabAtkins; got it
17:03:08 [Zakim]: +Bert
17:03:10 [Zakim]: +[Mozilla]
17:03:16 [ChrisL]: ChrisL has joined #css
17:03:26 [CesarAcebal]: acebal@uniovi.es
17:03:27 [Zakim]: +??P25
17:03:32 [dbaron]: Zakim, [Mozilla] has dbaron
17:03:32 [Zakim]: +dbaron; got it
17:04:20 [Zakim]: +ChrisL
17:04:27 [Zakim]: -CesarAcebal
17:04:53 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
17:04:54 [TabAtkins]: Scribenick: TabAtkins
17:04:56 [bradk]: bradk has joined #css
17:05:03 [arronei]: zakim, microsoft is me
17:05:03 [Zakim]: +arronei; got it
17:05:13 [TabAtkins]: plinss: Anything extra for the agenda?
17:05:36 [TabAtkins]: Topic: CSS 2.1 test suite
17:05:41 [TabAtkins]: plinss: Anything interesting?
17:05:48 [TabAtkins]: fantasai: Just fixing glitches in some of the publications
17:05:57 [TabAtkins]: arronei: I'll send in a few more errors I found. Simple stuff.
17:06:05 [TabAtkins]: fantasai: Any progress on metadata?
17:06:11 [TabAtkins]: arronei: I started it, but got sidetracked.
17:06:28 [TabAtkins]: fantasai: I put up documentation on reftests on the wiki: what it is, how to write one
17:06:46 [TabAtkins]: fantasai: There no reftests in the alpha right now, because there's no sensical indexing method right now.
17:07:17 [TabAtkins]: fantasai: Plan for the next day or two is to list everything that's wrong with build scripts so we can fix them.
17:07:30 [TabAtkins]: ChrisL: Since we can't have reftests at the moment, should we still be making them?
17:07:41 [TabAtkins]: fantasai: Yes, it's a good format, and we'll get it published.
17:08:03 [Zakim]: + +1.650.275.aaii
17:08:12 [TabAtkins]: fantasai: You can write a test that is both a reftest and a self-describing test.
17:08:42 [plinss]: zakim, aaii is bradk
17:08:42 [Zakim]: +bradk; got it
17:09:02 [TabAtkins]: plinss: Anything else in the test suite?
17:09:20 [TabAtkins]: Topic: FtF - reconfirming dates
17:09:29 [dsinger_]: Yes
17:09:29 [TabAtkins]: plinss: Current have March 29 - 31. Still the plan?
17:09:49 [TabAtkins]: ChrisL: I thought that one was fine, but the *next* one had a request to change it?
17:09:53 [TabAtkins]: fantasai: Yeah, we did.
17:10:06 [TabAtkins]: glazou_sick: I wanted it on the agenda so the SVGWG would know about the firm date we have.
17:10:16 [dsinger_]: zakim, unmute dsinger_
17:10:16 [Zakim]: dsinger_ should no longer be muted
17:10:44 [TabAtkins]: dsinger_: How do I get the official announcement out about location/suggestion to stay? How do I get peopel to announce they're coming so I can arrange everything?
17:10:59 [TabAtkins]: ChrisL: Just do a ??? form, it's easy. And you'll be on the CC list so you'll see when people register.
17:11:09 [dbaron]: s/??? form/WBS form/
17:11:13 [TabAtkins]: fantasai: Or just email the WG and say "respond if you're coming".
17:11:23 [TabAtkins]: glazou_sick: If you could publish a list of hotels asap, it would help.
17:11:35 [TabAtkins]: plinss: There's a page on the w3c server with a bunch of pertinent information from previous meetings.
17:11:36 [glazou_sick]: sylvaing: you can dream :)
17:11:55 [smfr]: sylvaing: bring your cheque book
17:12:01 [TabAtkins]: dsinger_: I assume it'll be a small enough group we can do lunch in the cafeteria.
17:12:06 [TabAtkins]: ChrisL: Sounds fine.
17:12:58 [TabAtkins]: plinss: and if we do a joint meeting with SVG, can you handle that on site?
17:13:04 [TabAtkins]: dsinger_: How many people are likely to join us?
17:13:18 [TabAtkins]: glazou_sick: I think Doug said the SVGWG was fairly small, maybe 6-7 people
17:13:24 [TabAtkins]: dsinger_: Ok.
17:13:42 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
17:13:43 [TabAtkins]: plinss: Do we want to set the 31st as the joint meeting?
17:13:52 [TabAtkins]: glazou_sick: I suggest we ask the SVGWG what's most convenient.
17:13:57 [dsinger_]: zakim, mute dsinger_
17:13:57 [Zakim]: dsinger_ should now be muted
17:13:59 [TabAtkins]: plinss: We're okay with dedicating one day of our meeting?
17:14:03 [TabAtkins]: glazou_sick: Yes, I think so.
17:14:21 [TabAtkins]: plinss: Elika, can you set up a wiki page for the agenda, so we can start posting suggested topics?
17:14:27 [TabAtkins]: fantasai: Will do.
17:14:49 [TabAtkins]: Topic: Richard Ishida editor for ruby
17:14:52 [TabAtkins]: several: in favor
17:14:57 [sylvaing]: very in favor
17:15:10 [TabAtkins]: ChrisL: Not only would he be a good editor, but he'll make tests and write tutorials and such.
17:15:30 [TabAtkins]: glazou_sick: Does Richard know about it? ^_^
17:15:49 [TabAtkins]: fantasai: Is the ruby spec on dev.w3.org, or doees it need to be moved?
17:15:57 [howcome]: howcome has joined #css
17:16:00 [TabAtkins]: Bert: I think it's already there, but he knows how to move it if necessary.
17:16:04 [fantasai]: http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/cupertino-2010
17:16:25 [TabAtkins]: ChrisL: I'm sure he doesn't have a huge patent portfolio, but still, might as well have him join.
17:16:45 [TabAtkins]: Resolved: Richard Ishida will be editor of CSS Ruby spec.
17:17:09 [TabAtkins]: Topic: Doug Shepers about deprecating DOMActivate event
17:17:11 [plinss]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2010JanMar/0009.html
17:17:16 [TabAtkins]: plinss: Shepers sent an email a while back.
17:17:39 [dbaron]: s/Shepers/Schepers/g
17:18:12 [TabAtkins]: ChrisL: How does that affect CSS directly? Are there any pseudoclass defs that explicitly mention DOMActivate?
17:18:23 [TabAtkins]: plinss: There's a note about a potential issue with the :active pseudoclass.
17:18:30 [TabAtkins]: plinss: But I don't believe it's the same concept.
17:18:54 [TabAtkins]: plinss: Not hearing any objections, so I assume we should just say "Go for it"?
17:19:24 [TabAtkins]: Resolved: approve deprecating DOMActivate
17:19:27 [TabAtkins]: Topic: CSS3 values
17:19:38 [TabAtkins]: plinss: One thing we were etalking about is accepting scinot in numbers
17:19:52 [TabAtkins]: ChrisL: That relates to a response I made about the style attribute.
17:20:11 [TabAtkins]: plinss: And they were saying it would be nice to accept scinot across the board rather than special-casing it for SVG.
17:20:24 [TabAtkins]: ChrisL: I agree. Special-casing is harder to work than just doing it everywhere.
17:20:43 [TabAtkins]: plinss: There were some questions about precision, and roundtripping, and so on. I think it makes sense to allow scinot across the board.
17:21:01 [TabAtkins]: Bert: I don't see why we need scinot in, say, typography.
17:21:08 [TabAtkins]: plinss: It will probably come in handy in transforms.
17:21:18 [TabAtkins]: sylvaing: I don't quite see the use-case either.
17:21:28 [TabAtkins]: plinss: Do you see sufficient harm in including it?
17:21:47 [TabAtkins]: s/sylvaing/howcome/
17:21:56 [dsinger]: dsinger has joined #css
17:22:01 [TabAtkins]: howcome: There's a compatibility issue. Can someone point me to a use-case?
17:22:02 [dbaron]: In CSS1 and CSS2, '3.6e-10' is a dimension, where '3.6' is the number and 'e-10' is the unit :-)
17:22:13 [Zakim]: + +1.408.996.aajj
17:22:18 [TabAtkins]: smfr: [Gives example with transformations]
17:22:20 [dsinger]: zakiom aajj is [apple]
17:22:29 [dsinger]: zakim, [apple] has dsinger
17:22:29 [Zakim]: sorry, dsinger, I do not recognize a party named '[apple]'
17:22:42 [TabAtkins]: howcome: What does this look like? 2.6e4 or the like?
17:22:45 [TabAtkins]: smfr: Yes.
17:23:06 [Zakim]: -dsinger_
17:23:07 [TabAtkins]: howcome: The notation has nothing to do with the precision. It has to do with what people type. I don't think people have to type e4 or whateveer.
17:23:16 [TabAtkins]: ChrisL: Are you going to object?
17:23:34 [TabAtkins]: howcome: I'm not going to object *yet*, but I'm not sure of the use-case.
17:23:56 [dbaron]: It also means reading things like '2.6e4em'
17:24:25 [TabAtkins]: plinss: The only thing it really precludes is us ever having a unit named "e".
17:24:34 [TabAtkins]: dbaron: Or starting with e and followed by numeric characters.
17:24:45 [TabAtkins]: howcome: My issue is really readability. I don't think it's intuitive.
17:25:52 [TabAtkins]: plinss: The use-case isn't really when it's like 2.6e-4, it's like 2.6e-30, which is way easier to read than .00000...26
17:26:01 [TabAtkins]: bert?: In what cases is that not 0?
17:26:07 [dsinger]: is allowing scientific notation *harmful*?
17:26:12 [TabAtkins]: plinss: In matrix transforms it's not equivalent.
17:26:16 [dsinger]: it may be unusual, but does that matter?
17:27:15 [TabAtkins]: ChrisL: We've already had apple and mozilla already say they want to do it to harmonize CSS and SVG.
17:28:02 [TabAtkins]: [argument about readability of scinot]
17:28:23 [TabAtkins]: sylvaing: We have a way of writing large numbers. When you get large enough it's no longer comfortable to use normal numbers.
17:28:24 [dbaron]: I'd note there were a few fun (though far from insurmountable) issues with implementing scientific notation (see Mozilla bug 302971): it requires more pushback in the tokenizer than anything else does (with the possible exception of URL, depending on how you implement it); according to SVG it's only allowed for <number> and not <integer>;
17:28:39 [TabAtkins]: fantasai: My problem is that SVG and CSS have two different syntaxes. I don't care about the details as much.
17:28:52 [TabAtkins]: glazou_sick: Proposal is to add scinot to values in CSS.
17:28:56 [dbaron]: If my memory is correct, the issue with SVG and CSS accepting different syntaxes applies only to SVG attributes and not actually CSS in SVG.
17:29:25 [TabAtkins]: fantasai: If it's an issue with SVG attributes only, I don't think it's as much of an issue.
17:29:51 [TabAtkins]: ChrisL: No, you can do things like put it in a style attribute, and it's weird for people to mix it with normal CSS and not be able to use notation broadly.
17:30:01 [TabAtkins]: fantasai: But if it's not there yet, it's not an issue yet.
17:30:27 [TabAtkins]: ChrisL: It is there yet. The problem is that the Style Attribute spec now disallows it, but before it was allowed to mix the notations.
17:30:31 [TabAtkins]: ChrisL: It's a blocking issue for SVG.
17:30:56 [TabAtkins]: ChrisL: 1) allow it everywhere, anywhere there's a number 2) disallow it
17:31:16 [TabAtkins]: fantasai: Anywhere there's a number, or numbers and dimensions
17:31:33 [TabAtkins]: dbaron: There's 3 things: number, integer, and dimension. SVG doesn't allow it for integer, but doees for the other two.
17:31:55 [TabAtkins]: ChrisL: If CSS wants to allow it for all 3, I'd be willing to take a change request back to SVG to harmonize it.
17:32:00 [TabAtkins]: dbaron: I'd rather avoid it for integers.
17:32:14 [TabAtkins]: glazou_sick: 1) Allow it only where it's permitted. 2) Allow it where SVG does. 3) Disallow it.
17:33:01 [TabAtkins]: ChrisL: ONly allow it where the individual property says it's allowed. Second option is to allow it everywhere that takes a number/dimension.
17:33:20 [TabAtkins]: glazou_sick: In favor of 2
17:33:22 [dbaron]: (1) is allow it when the property says it's permitted, and (2) is allowing it for all <number> / <dimension>
17:33:25 [TabAtkins]: ChrisL: 2 for me as well
17:33:27 [TabAtkins]: plinss: 2
17:33:38 [sylvaing]: 2
17:33:42 [bradk]: 1
17:33:42 [TabAtkins]: smfr, tabatking: 2
17:33:44 [arronei]: 2
17:33:50 [dbaron]: I think if we allow it we should do (2).
17:34:15 [bradk]: 2 is OK with me, but I think 1 would be more intuitive
17:34:16 [TabAtkins]: howcome: I don't think we should allow it. I think it's more readable and easier to parse.
17:34:18 [TabAtkins]: howcome: 3
17:34:27 [Bert]: 3 (It's just too costly, there are tons of implementations of CSS...)
17:34:35 [dethbakin]: 2
17:34:59 [TabAtkins]: ChrisL: Brad, would you be happy with 2?
17:35:06 [dbaron]: s/tabatking/tabatkins/
17:35:15 [TabAtkins]: bradk: 2 is fine
17:35:23 [TabAtkins]: fantasai: This is for css3 only, right?
17:35:40 [TabAtkins]: ChrisL: It would be for css3 only, but currently the style attribute for *any* language says you must align with css2.
17:35:45 [TabAtkins]: fantasai: We'll deal with that separately.
17:36:00 [TabAtkins]: Bert: What do you mean "css3 only"? This is a grammar question, not a property question.
17:36:03 [sylvaing]: so we are implicitly OK with 'new' style sheets tripping up older UAs right ? since the new values will not be limited to new features such as transforms...
17:36:26 [TabAtkins]: fantasai: What I mean is, I'm strongly against changing the css2.1 grammar to allow scinot. I want it in a new css3 grammar.
17:36:42 [TabAtkins]: Bert: The grammar in css2.1 says it's *the* grammar for CSS.
17:36:43 [fantasai]: s/ want/'m ok with/
17:37:04 [TabAtkins]: ChrisL: Right, the forward-compatible grammar allows it, css2.1 will disallow it. We've had those problems before.
17:37:14 [TabAtkins]: Bert: No, we only have 1 *core* grammar.
17:38:26 [TabAtkins]: sylvaing: Once you make the change you'll have UAs failing stylesheets with the new value.
17:38:52 [TabAtkins]: TabAtkins: Yeah, but that happens with any new property. Legacy UAs will just drop that property.
17:39:05 [TabAtkins]: sylvaing: I hate to point it out, but IE6 is still out there.
17:39:18 [TabAtkins]: Bert: There are other implementations.
17:39:44 [TabAtkins]: glazou_sick: I don't like that the first SVG harmonization effort is sidetracked by a large discussion over this small issue.
17:39:47 [TabAtkins]: fantasai: It's not small.
17:39:54 [fantasai]: and it's not the first
17:40:39 [TabAtkins]: TabAtkins: Still not seeing why this is any differenet from a new property being dropped in legacy UAs.
17:40:56 [TabAtkins]: sylvaing: It's not just new properties. I could do width:100e1px and have it ignored in old browsers. Is that fine?
17:41:17 [TabAtkins]: howcome: Is this change worth what you get back from it?
17:41:29 [TabAtkins]: howcome: This is a huge change in the core, and I don't see that it's worth it.
17:41:38 [TabAtkins]: glazou_sick: If you look at new pages using transformations, it's a big deal.
17:41:58 [TabAtkins]: ChrisL: Are we saying that Apple should go home with it's transitions spec because it requires us redefining the value of "number"?
17:42:13 [TabAtkins]: howcome: It's a change for *everywhere*, though. It's a huge change, and I don't think it's worth it for everything.
17:42:28 [TabAtkins]: sylvaing: So you want it only for the properties that specifically need it?
17:42:34 [TabAtkins]: howcome: I think that's a more reasonable proposition.
17:42:51 [TabAtkins]: sylvaing: You'll have to look at a property when you parse a number?
17:43:03 [TabAtkins]: Bert: You have to do that already, like with an+b
17:43:16 [TabAtkins]: sylvaing: Right, but it doesn't require you to look at the context.
17:43:26 [glazou_sick]: glazou
17:43:37 [TabAtkins]: Bert: You can say in the grammar that we can find a specific use-case for that property.
17:44:06 [TabAtkins]: ChrisL: So you're proposal, Bert, is to change SVG to something new so you don't have to change CSS?
17:44:19 [TabAtkins]: Bert: SVG is an xml spec, css isn't.
17:44:40 [TabAtkins]: ChrisL: Then I'll take that back to the SVG, and we'll drop saying that the style attribute spec is for SVG.
17:45:00 [TabAtkins]: dsinger: I think the objection is "scinot is ugly and I don't want to see it".
17:45:39 [fantasai]: Bert: That's one objection, the main one is that it requires changing the core grammar
17:46:06 [TabAtkins]: TabAtkins: All the UAs that handle SVG *already* handle the notation.
17:46:55 [TabAtkins]: ChrisL: If particular-property is required, that's okay. But we can't just say something new that requires changing all of SVG.
17:47:12 [fantasai]: glazou says something about millions of users
17:47:24 [fantasai]: howcome: Nobody's asking for scinot in the width property.
17:47:38 [sylvaing]: i understand that the new notation can be used as a css level hack. (I raised it). but if the alternative is property-specific grammar and preserving arbitrary differences between SVG and CSS, it's a risk worth taking imo
17:47:48 [fantasai]: howcome: If it's per-property, then that's easier to swallow
17:48:14 [TabAtkins]: [discussion about required stability of the grammar]
17:48:34 [glazou_sick]: The Keepers of The Temple are back
17:48:51 [TabAtkins]: howcome: Bert points out that the Core Grammar has been stable, it's one of the core pillars. You need really good arguments to change it, and I haven't seen them.
17:49:36 [TabAtkins]: ChrisL: Where do we go from here? 9 votes for option 2, 2 votes for option 3. There's a lot hanging on this. Changing the CSS grammar, or requiring SVG to use a slightly different Style Attribute with subtle differences.
17:49:42 [TabAtkins]: sylvaing: Is this something we want to discuss ftf?
17:50:02 [glazou_sick]: CesarAcebal: you just rejoined the WG apparently :-) welcome back :-)
17:50:12 [TabAtkins]: fantasai: There are a lot of things that SVG allow sin their syntax and 5 years later we find out about it.
17:50:36 [TabAtkins]: howcome: There's a consensus route, where we ejust allow it in properties that specifically allow it.
17:50:36 [fantasai]: s/syntax/syntax that's incompatible with CSS/
17:50:47 [TabAtkins]: sylvaing: That's specific grammars. Is that okay with you?
17:51:14 [TabAtkins]: howcome: I don't think that's something new, with the specific grammars we use in different properties.
17:51:36 [TabAtkins]: smfr: Then you need a new length, in addition to a new number. It will spiral out of control.
17:51:58 [TabAtkins]: plinss: The other side of your argument is that I dont' know if it will make Bert happy. Bert, would you accept scinot in specific properties?
17:52:12 [TabAtkins]: Bert: I don't like it, but I wouldn't object if it was localized enough. I don't know where you'd need it, but sure.
17:52:14 [CesarAcebal]: Thank you, Daniel! :) Yes, fortunately I was able to talk to my representative and (rarely being the University of Oviedo) this time he acted quickly to solve the error. ;)
17:52:31 [TabAtkins]: ChrisL: So you don't see any place where you need it?
17:52:45 [TabAtkins]: Bert: The argument you gave, that I hear, is all about getComputedStyle.
17:53:12 [TabAtkins]: plinss: People would like to have something from getComputedStyle and roundtrip it back to a stylesheet.
17:53:39 [TabAtkins]: fantasai: Just have getComputedStyle return something proper for roundtripping
17:54:08 [TabAtkins]: fantasai: We discussed this a few weeks ago and concluded that we should specify a minimum accuracy. The first round will have some truncating, but after that there's no problem.
17:54:18 [TabAtkins]: smfr: The problem is that you may end up with a long series of 0s.
17:54:47 [TabAtkins]: dsinger: You'll be given a number in scinot, and you'll convert it to a number *wrongly*. It woudl be better to auto-translate it.
17:55:15 [TabAtkins]: Bert: I'd still like to see an example of where this is needed.
17:55:17 [ChrisL2]: ChrisL2 has joined #css
17:55:28 [TabAtkins]: Bert: Even if I dont' use it, it's still there. It's on the books.
17:55:40 [ChrisL2]: rrsagent, here
17:55:40 [RRSAgent]: See http://www.w3.org/2010/02/10-CSS-irc#T17-55-40
17:55:47 [TabAtkins]: howcome: It can be used in harmful ways, for obfuscation or as a switch for browser compatibility.
17:56:20 [TabAtkins]: smfr: I talked about getComputedStyle when I first brought it up, but the real problem is that there's no number value api that doens't involve converting through a string.
17:56:39 [TabAtkins]: smfr: We don't strictly need scinot, but it's good to have it roundtrip through javascript.
17:57:00 [TabAtkins]: howcome: I think we should define that api.
17:57:08 [TabAtkins]: ChrisL2: That fixes that part of the problem, but not all of it.
17:57:21 [TabAtkins]: plinss: A very important part of the proposal is harmonization with SVG, and that's very important.
17:57:36 [TabAtkins]: plinss: This is the very first thing we're getting into here, we're going to say "No"?
17:57:39 [Zakim]: -glazou_sick
17:57:49 [TabAtkins]: howcome: So are you saying that we'll just say "yes" to every single harmonization effort?
17:58:03 [Zakim]: +glazou_sick
17:58:05 [TabAtkins]: dsinger: Right, but if the w3c was moderately consistent about what is a "number".
17:58:32 [TabAtkins]: plinss: We're not talking about svg coming up with a "foobar" property, that we can just say "Eh, keep it yourself". We're talking about SVG having to define a new language.
17:59:00 [TabAtkins]: sylvaing: What is the benefit for authors and implementors to have different grammars for numbers?
17:59:10 [TabAtkins]: sylvaing: What is the difference? Why not use the supersete?
17:59:22 [TabAtkins]: howcome: Because you make it more difficult to implement CSS.
17:59:55 [TabAtkins]: sylvaing: It's already implemented, though.
18:00:06 [TabAtkins]: howcome: Yeah, that's an argument for Opera, but not for everyone.
18:00:15 [glazou_sick]: TabAtkins: I want that to be minuted !!! :-)
18:00:25 [TabAtkins]: TabAtkins: The only major browser that doesn't do SVG is IE, and sylvaing is in favor.
18:00:39 [TabAtkins]: Bert: We're not talking about browsers, we're talking about CSS.
18:00:47 [Zakim]: -[Apple]
18:01:01 [TabAtkins]: width: 0x64px;
18:01:15 [fantasai]: that's hex, Tab
18:01:19 [TabAtkins]: Bert: If we harmonize the language, CSS would become an xml language. There will always be important details.
18:01:35 [ChrisL2]: strawman, no-one suggested that
18:01:56 [TabAtkins]: TabAtkins: But I don't think "how to write a number" is something that people expect to be different between languages.
18:02:13 [TabAtkins]: sylvaing: I still want to answer to what the benefit is for authors to ahve them work differently.
18:02:42 [TabAtkins]: sylvaing: Why should it be different? It's confusing for authors.
18:03:12 [TabAtkins]: howcome: I think the pain is minor to when people read stylesheets that used scinot to create browser-switches.
18:03:24 [TabAtkins]: plinss: I don't think obfuscation is a strong enough argument.
18:03:33 [TabAtkins]: howcome: I think the browser-switch is strong.
18:03:41 [TabAtkins]: howcome: It's a change in the core grammar.
18:03:52 [Zakim]: -dethbakin
18:03:54 [glazou_sick]: bye dethbakin
18:04:02 [TabAtkins]: sylvaing: I understand that, but if the problem is having property-specific grammars, I think it's worse.
18:04:16 [glazou_sick]: plinss: discussion going nowhere at this point
18:04:24 [dethbakin]: dethbakin has left #css
18:04:30 [TabAtkins]: howcome: We see the problem that IE comments has caused.
18:04:55 [TabAtkins]: plinss: This isn't going to be resolved. We'll pick it up later.
18:05:10 [TabAtkins]: howcome: I still think best is to use it where we need it.
18:05:19 [TabAtkins]: sylvaing: We should get SVG into this conversation as well.
18:05:40 [Zakim]: -smfr
18:05:41 [Zakim]: -ChrisL
18:05:45 [Zakim]: -sylvaing
18:05:46 [TabAtkins]: glazou_sick: Can ChrisL write it up, since he has interests on both sides?
18:05:46 [Zakim]: -arronei
18:05:47 [Zakim]: -[Mozilla]
18:05:48 [Zakim]: -plinss
18:05:50 [Zakim]: -Bert
18:05:51 [Zakim]: -glazou_sick
18:05:58 [Zakim]: -bradk
18:06:00 [Zakim]: -fantasai
18:06:02 [TabAtkins]: Resolved: ChrisL will summarize the discussion about scinot on www-style.
18:06:05 [Zakim]: -[IPcaller]
18:06:07 [Zakim]: -TabAtkins
18:06:08 [Zakim]: Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
18:06:10 [Zakim]: Attendees were +1.408.398.aaaa, +1.858.216.aabb, plinss, dsinger_, +95089aacc, +1.617.650.aadd, glazou_sick, +1.206.324.aaee, sylvaing, +1.408.636.aaff, dethbakin, smfr,
18:06:14 [Zakim]: ... +34.60.940.aagg, CesarAcebal, +1.281.712.aahh, TabAtkins, Bert, dbaron, fantasai, ChrisL, arronei, +1.650.275.aaii, bradk, [IPcaller], +1.408.996.aajj, dsinger
18:06:14 [ChrisL2]: zakim, list attendees
18:06:14 [Zakim]: sorry, ChrisL2, I don't know what conference this is
18:13:10 [glazou_sick]: glazou_sick has left #css
18:21:53 [fantasai]: dbaron: You tend to make a lot of useful and interesting notes on IRC.
18:22:06 [sylvaing]: yes, he does
18:22:14 [dbaron]: yeah, when it's not possible to get a word in on the phone
18:22:14 [sylvaing]: ..and not just on IRC
18:22:16 [fantasai]: dbaron: I suggest biasing a little more towards speaking up
18:22:22 [fantasai]: :)
18:22:48 [fantasai]: maybe you just have to be a little more agressive about getting airtime?
18:27:17 [shepazu]: shepazu has joined #css
18:30:46 [dbaron]: I think lately I've done a bit too much of calling in to meetings where most of the other people are there in-person. It's much harder to interrupt in that situation.
19:05:24 [smfr]: smfr has left #css
19:13:49 [fantasai]: shepazu: Where does SVG allow scientific notation?
19:14:19 [fantasai]: shepazu: just in SVG properties in SVG style attrs? In all properties in SVG style attrs? In all SVG properties everywhere? In all properties linked to an SVG document? Other?
19:14:53 [shepazu]: fantasai: I would have to confirm, but I think it's anywhere we allow an SVG-Length
19:15:25 [fantasai]: what's an SVG-Length?
19:16:36 [CesarAcebal]: CesarAcebal has left #css
19:17:57 [fantasai]: shepazu: Here's a better question,
19:18:13 [fantasai]: shepazu: which version of SVG allows scientific notation in properties (as opposed to attributes)?
19:18:24 [fantasai]: shepazu: because I'm not finding that in 1.1
19:18:44 [shepazu]: fantasai: sorry... distracted by telcon while in noisy Apple store... can we follow up by email?
19:19:08 [fantasai]: shepazu: sure
19:29:59 [Lachy]: Lachy has joined #css
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19:39:48 [fantasai]: Bert: Can you look into why the .htaccess for Test/CSS2.1/20100127 is not able to set charset headers?
19:52:57 [Bert]: Oh, yes, I saw you message. I'll try, fantasai.
19:58:15 [anne]: anne has left #css
20:25:26 [Bert]: Fantasai, I think I fixed it.
20:25:32 [Bert]: AddDefaultCharset only applies to text/html and text/plain, not to application/xhtml+xml or text/css.
20:25:38 [Bert]: I added "AddCharset utf-8 .xht .css" for those files.
20:25:47 [Bert]: But for that, I had to reduce the strength of a rule in a higher directory.
20:35:03 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #CSS
21:06:13 [fantasai]: Bert: I think reducing the strength of the higher rule was the important bit, the explicit Shift_JIS is now taking effect too
21:06:42 [fantasai]: Bert: Thanks
21:07:35 [Bert]: OK, I didn't test all the thousands of files :-) but if you find an error let me know.
21:07:56 [Bert]: (I may not see it tonight, but my computer stays on.)
21:28:27 [fantasai]: hehe, ok :)
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