14:44:13 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dap
14:44:13 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/01/06-dap-irc
14:44:15 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:44:15 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #dap
14:44:17 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be DAP
14:44:17 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see UW_DAP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 16 minutes
14:44:18 <trackbot> Meeting: Device APIs and Policy Working Group Teleconference
14:44:18 <trackbot> Date: 06 January 2010
14:44:36 <fjh> Chair: Robin_Berjon, Frederick_Hirsch
14:44:44 <fjh> Present: Robin_Berjon, Frederick_Hirsch
14:45:26 <fjh> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2009Dec/0298.html
14:47:48 <cardona507> cardona507 has joined #dap
14:48:46 <tlr> Present+ ThomasRoessler
14:48:58 <Dzung_Tran> Dzung_Tran has joined #dap
14:49:08 <Dzung_Tran> Present+ Dzung_Tran
14:49:47 <wonsuk> Present+ Wonsuk_Lee
14:51:43 <darobin> Present+ Robin_Berjon
14:52:17 <fjh> Regrets: Anssi Kostiainen, Marco Marengo
14:53:35 <paddy> Present+ Paddy_Byers
14:54:10 <paddy> fjh, sorry but my internet connection is going up and down all the time
14:54:22 <paddy> I will do it next time if it's ok
14:54:48 <paddy> snowbound, unable to reach office and working from home :)
14:55:41 <fjh> action: fjh fix Seoul time in agenda to be 24:00
14:55:41 <trackbot> Created ACTION-78 - Fix Seoul time in agenda to be 24:00 [on Frederick Hirsch - due 2010-01-13].
14:56:22 <paddy> similarly, agenda says 1400 UTC, I think it is 1500 UTC
14:57:38 <Zakim> UW_DAP()10:00AM has now started
14:57:45 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:57:55 <fjh> zakim, [IPcaller] is fjh
14:57:55 <Zakim> +fjh; got it
14:57:58 <Zakim> + +0148375aaaa
14:58:35 <Zakim> +??P16
14:58:47 <fhirsch> fhirsch has joined #dap
14:58:58 <cardona507> I am a member of the HTMLwg - but for some reason I am having trouble submitting the form to join this group - It looks like the form expired on new years - any ideas?
14:58:58 <Zakim> +maxf
14:59:07 <paddy> zakim, +0148375aaaa is paddy
14:59:07 <Zakim> +paddy; got it
14:59:23 <fjh> tlr can you pls help cardona507?
14:59:51 <cardona507> I am a student and "invited expert" - I don't represent a company per se
15:00:01 <paddy> I can scribe until my connection disappears
15:00:26 <fhirsch> paddy, perhaps you can scribe next week and we can choose someone else for today
15:00:40 <cardona507> dom - should I send an email to the chairs? and if so where?
15:00:43 <paddy> ok, thanks
15:00:49 <darobin> yeah, we don't want a scribe that drops off
15:01:00 <darobin> or gets caught in an avalanche
15:01:05 <LauraArribas> LauraArribas has joined #dap
15:01:06 <schittur2> schittur2 has joined #dap
15:01:14 <Zakim> +wonsuk
15:01:28 <cardona507> thank dom - have a good meeting everyone
15:01:29 <schittur2> Present+ Suresh_Chitturi
15:01:29 <LauraArribas> Present+ Laura_Arribas
15:01:31 <dom> zakim, code?
15:01:32 <tlr> zakim, call thomas-781
15:01:36 <Zakim> the conference code is 3279 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), dom
15:01:40 <tlr> zakim, I am thomas
15:01:40 <Zakim> ok, tlr; the call is being made
15:01:45 <tlr> zakim, mute me
15:01:46 <Zakim> +Thomas
15:01:52 <Zakim> ok, tlr, I now associate you with Thomas
15:01:56 <Zakim> Thomas should now be muted
15:02:10 <Zakim> +Suresh
15:02:42 <Zakim> +Laura_Arribas
15:02:42 <cardona507> cardona507 has left #dap
15:02:58 <Zakim> +Dom
15:03:05 <dom> Present+ Dominique_Hazael-Massieux
15:03:07 <jmorris> jmorris has joined #dap
15:03:17 <dom> zakim, mute m
15:03:17 <Zakim> maxf should now be muted
15:03:28 <cardona507> cardona507 has joined #dap
15:03:41 <jmorris> present+ John_Morris
15:03:51 <jmorris> yes
15:03:54 <fhirsch> zakim, who is here?
15:03:54 <Zakim> On the phone I see fjh, paddy, darobin (muted), maxf (muted), wonsuk, Thomas (muted), Suresh, Laura_Arribas, Dom
15:03:57 <Zakim> On IRC I see cardona507, jmorris, schittur2, LauraArribas, fhirsch, Dzung_Tran, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, wonsuk, paddy, arve, maxf, darobin, tlr, ilkka, blassey, shepazu, arg, dom,
15:03:59 <Zakim> ... trackbot
15:04:26 <Zakim> +jmorris
15:05:03 <darobin> Scribe: John Morris
15:05:08 <darobin> ScribeNick: jmorris 
15:06:10 <fhirsch> Paddy will scribe next week
15:06:37 <marcin> marcin has joined #dap
15:06:46 <jmorris> minutes from dec. 16
15:06:51 <fhirsch> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2009Dec/att-0231/minutes-2009-12-16.html
15:06:53 <jmorris> topic: minutes approval
15:07:07 <jmorris> resolution: minutes from 16-dec approved
15:07:13 <jmorris> topic: policy
15:07:25 <fhirsch> ReSpec, added refNote and additionalCopyrightHolders
15:07:43 <jmorris> who?
15:07:45 <fhirsch> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2009Dec/0293.html
15:08:02 <fhirsch> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2009Dec/0295.html
15:08:04 <marcin> Present+ Marcin_Hanclik
15:08:06 <jmorris> some discussion of document on list
15:08:13 <fhirsch> action-63?
15:08:13 <trackbot> ACTION-63 -- Laura Arribas to review http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2009Nov/0044.html -- due 2009-11-25 -- CLOSED
15:08:13 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/63
15:08:40 <fhirsch> TAG response
15:08:43 <tlr> topic: TAG response
15:08:50 <jmorris> topic: tag response
15:09:04 <fhirsch> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2009Dec/0297.htm
15:09:08 <darobin> FH: any objection to sending to the TAG?
15:09:10 <darobin> [none]
15:09:12 <fhirsch> will send this today, given no comment
15:09:14 <tlr> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2009Dec/0297.html
15:09:20 <jmorris> resolution:  fhirsch to send tag response
15:09:29 <dom> ACTION-69?
15:09:29 <trackbot> ACTION-69 -- Paddy Byers to provide use cases for the policy requirements document -- due 2009-12-11 -- OPEN
15:09:29 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/69
15:09:41 <dom> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2010Jan/0031.html Policy Use cases from Paddy
15:10:05 <Zakim> + +49.208.4.aabb
15:10:17 <marcin> Zakim, aabb is marcin
15:10:17 <Zakim> +marcin; got it
15:10:43 <jmorris> paddy: working on use cases
15:11:02 <jmorris> how does this relate to policy requirements documents
15:11:48 <jmorris> fhirsch:  these should go into requirements documents
15:12:09 <dom> +1 on integrating in requirements for now
15:12:25 <wonsuk> +1
15:12:26 <darobin> +1 too
15:12:41 <jmorris> fhirsch:  tlr did work on security in apis
15:12:42 <dom> [I think it would be useful if the use cases distinguished or highlighted which apply to widget vs open web apps]
15:12:50 <tlr> [+1 to dom]
15:12:55 <darobin> [me too!]
15:14:45 <jmorris> paddy:  need detail in use cases and derive requirements from them
15:14:57 <jmorris> need to determine implied requirements in API
15:15:34 <jmorris> apis should be capable of being used without presumption of trust
15:15:38 <fhirsch> paddy suggests possible requirement - apis should be capabable of being mediated by policy but not required to be mediated by policy
15:15:43 <dom> q+ 
15:15:46 <dom> ack me
15:15:48 <fhirsch> ack dom
15:16:31 <fhirsch> dom asks whether use cases apply to non-trusted environment
15:17:03 <jmorris> fhirsch:  there will always be non-trusted cases
15:17:24 <jmorris> paddy: there is not always a presumption of trust with web site
15:17:24 <Zakim> +??P6
15:17:34 <arve> Zakim, P6 is me
15:17:34 <Zakim> sorry, arve, I do not recognize a party named 'P6'
15:17:36 <dom> [paddy captured well the questions I had in mind]
15:17:42 <jmorris> with widget, one goes through an install process with some suggestion of trust
15:17:57 <cardona507> cardona507 has joined #dap
15:18:14 <jmorris> paddy:  there is a difference between two environments, but the apis should be capable of both environments
15:18:41 <fhirsch> q+
15:18:44 <Dzung_Tran> I think we should strive for both environment
15:18:45 <jmorris> dom:  wg should be able to set ground rules for use of APIs in trusted environments
15:19:05 <fhirsch> q-
15:20:09 <jmorris> fhirsch:  dom put something on the list on this?
15:20:11 <schittur2> Robin - i dont think i saw one as well
15:20:21 <dom> zakim, mute me
15:20:21 <Zakim> Dom should now be muted
15:21:11 <dom> ACTION: Paddy to integrate his use cases in policy requirements
15:21:11 <trackbot> Created ACTION-79 - Integrate his use cases in policy requirements [on Paddy Byers - due 2010-01-13].
15:21:12 <jmorris> fhirsch:  paddy should work to integrate use cases in to requirements doc
15:21:40 <dom> ACTION-77?
15:21:40 <trackbot> ACTION-77 -- John Morris to provide a discussion of requirements for privacy -- due 2010-01-19 -- OPEN
15:21:40 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/77
15:22:34 <jmorris> topic: api issues
15:22:58 <jmorris> darobin: lots happening
15:23:28 <paddybyers> paddybyers has joined #dap
15:23:56 <jmorris> [very hard time hearing you robin]
15:24:42 <dom> [I suggest sending the CfC now, with one week review]
15:24:49 <tlr> [+1]
15:24:52 <fhirsch> +1 to DOM
15:24:55 <jmorris> darobin:  should we wait to discuss CfC today or next week?
15:24:57 <dom> s/DOM/Dom/
15:24:57 <tlr> s/DOM/Dom/
15:24:57 <schittur2> +1
15:24:58 <fhirsch> s/DOM/Dom
15:25:03 <jmorris> we will discuss nextr week
15:25:09 <jmorris> s/nextr/next/
15:25:33 <tlr> ack maxf
15:25:33 <dom> zakim, unmute maxf
15:25:37 <maxf> gah!
15:25:37 <Zakim> maxf was not muted, dom
15:25:39 <Zakim> -maxf
15:25:45 <maxf> brb
15:26:16 <jmorris> darobin: not much work on other issues in past couple of weeks
15:26:27 <fhirsch> q+
15:26:27 <jmorris> [waiting for maxf to return]
15:26:28 <Zakim> +maxf
15:26:37 <jmorris> maxf:
15:26:59 <jmorris> maxf: discussions about what to put into each individual property about which we have info
15:27:14 <jmorris> questions are unlined by general principles....
15:27:25 <jmorris> are there use cases for properties we are going to include
15:27:30 <tlr> q+ to attempt framing the higher-level decision
15:27:34 <jmorris> decisions need to be made on case by case basis
15:27:41 <fhirsch> q-
15:27:51 <schittur2> q+
15:28:02 <jmorris> questions about how much privacy/security sensitivity with each property
15:28:10 <dom> zakim, mute robin
15:28:10 <Zakim> sorry, dom, I do not know which phone connection belongs to robin
15:28:14 <dom> zakim, mute darobin
15:28:14 <Zakim> darobin should now be muted
15:29:09 <jmorris> maxf:  need to hear from people who care
15:29:12 <tlr> ack thomas
15:29:14 <Zakim> Thomas, you wanted to attempt framing the higher-level decision
15:29:24 <jmorris> tlr: agree with max's framing
15:29:45 <jmorris> at least for subset of comments, one approach to ask is this in scope for work we want to do
15:30:08 <jmorris> broad question:  do we want to provide info for run time execution environment
15:30:16 <jmorris> e.g., cpu, etc.
15:30:42 <jmorris> other comments: network area - do we believe that network is taken as a given
15:30:57 <jmorris> or do we need more info on network connectivity
15:31:23 <jmorris> sub issue - detailed info on network can equal location info.... 
15:31:27 <tlr> zakjim, mute me
15:31:29 <tlr> zakim, mute me
15:31:29 <Zakim> Thomas should now be muted
15:31:36 <jmorris> schittur:
15:32:04 <jmorris> tend agree that properties like cpu, etc., are attributes that vendors do not want to expose
15:32:20 <jmorris> in practice, unlikely that apps will adjust based on these properties
15:32:31 <dom> [I think the uses cases are for applications whose role is actually to deal with these low-level details]
15:32:34 <jmorris> we should focus on more import things like displays, IO
15:32:37 <jmorris> storage
15:32:59 <dom> q+ to propose a framing
15:33:00 <tlr> dom, right -- the question is whether we assume CPU and network are managed by the runtime, or whether we think we're managing them.
15:33:01 <jmorris> prefer not to expose cpu, other details
15:33:08 <darobin> ack dom 
15:33:09 <Zakim> dom, you wanted to propose a framing
15:33:09 <jmorris> dom:
15:33:14 <schittur2> q-
15:33:19 <jmorris> dom: thanks maxf for work on this....
15:33:28 <darobin> indeed, thanks maxf!
15:33:38 <fhirsch> +1
15:33:53 <jmorris> good way to frame this this for v1 of spec -- we only focus on general purpose application features
15:33:56 <tlr> thanks maxf!
15:34:17 <jmorris> and we not focus on cpu and less general purpose properties
15:34:42 <jmorris> darobin:  this could be a separate spec versus a different version
15:34:54 <jmorris> darobin: agree with dom's framing
15:35:01 <fhirsch> q+
15:35:13 <tlr> :)
15:35:16 <jmorris> maxf: happy to focus on general purpose application features
15:35:25 <Dzung_Tran> for completeness don't we want to cover CPU, however I am fine with moving it to later version
15:35:59 <jmorris> maxf:  temperature is hard
15:36:17 <dom> Regrets+ DavidRogers
15:36:17 <fhirsch> does this principle mean, not include what is marked as "interna"
15:36:21 <jmorris> don't know how to simply draft with several thermometers
15:36:26 <fhirsch> s/interna/internal
15:36:32 <fhirsch> q?
15:36:44 <tlr> I'd drop thermo, battery, cpu, fan.
15:36:51 <wonsuk> +1 for moving general things to later version.
15:37:06 <jmorris> darobin: might make sense to have more complex thermal but simpler cpu
15:37:15 <Dzung_Tran> What is so hard about temperature?
15:37:15 <dom> [I think something should be kept when attached with a "generic" use case]
15:37:44 <tlr> I'm fine with keeping external temperature, but would drop internal temperature sensors.
15:37:47 <jmorris> fhirsch:  not sure what "general purpose application features" mean
15:37:49 <Dzung_Tran> Temperature is extremely important in mobile device
15:37:57 <jmorris> maxf: I could write proposal on list
15:37:59 <schittur2> q+
15:38:05 <darobin> ack fhirsch 
15:38:10 <tlr> Dzung, how about commenting on the phone?
15:38:20 <darobin> ack schittur2 
15:38:26 <darobin> ack schittur
15:38:30 <jmorris> action: maxf to write to list of properties to drop or simplify
15:38:31 <trackbot> Created ACTION-80 - Write to list of properties to drop or simplify [on Max Froumentin - due 2010-01-13].
15:38:51 <jmorris> s/list of/list on/
15:39:03 <Dzung_Tran> I can't join today, actually I need to drop right now, sorry
15:39:39 <darobin> q?
15:39:46 <tlr> ack thom
15:39:53 <schittur2> Input/Output, Codec support, Network coverage are fairly common and useful properties to have
15:40:11 <jmorris> tlr: device management applications are not a generic use case
15:40:12 <dom> zakim, am I muted?
15:40:12 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, dom.
15:40:14 <fhirsch>  not sure resolution is needed, but ok with me - still will have to make decisions of what it means
15:40:16 <dom> zakim, who's muted?
15:40:16 <Zakim> I see no one muted
15:40:22 <tlr> zakim, mute me
15:40:22 <Zakim> Thomas should now be muted
15:40:39 <schittur2> Internal, and sensor related properties are very low-level and not general purpose properties
15:40:55 <dom> "apps not directly targeted at monitoring the said sensors"
15:41:08 <darobin> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: use a "generic use case"/"apps not directly targeted at monitoring the said sensors" measurement to decide whether something is to be included in SysInfo or not
15:41:23 <tlr> good enough
15:41:33 <fhirsch> q+
15:41:46 <darobin> MF: sounds good
15:41:52 <dom> [maybe s/SysInfo/SysInfo v1/]
15:42:11 <tlr> oh, yes, webapps globally reconfiguring the keyboard! That's fun.
15:42:14 <jmorris> fhirsch:  what about keyboard, camera flash?  is that general?
15:42:15 <fhirsch> q-
15:42:38 <tlr> q+
15:42:42 <tlr> ack thomas
15:42:44 <jmorris> darobin: there is a general use case for knowing keyboard type
15:43:03 <jmorris> tlr: some settings are set-able
15:43:08 <jmorris> not all are just read-only
15:43:20 <jmorris> some will lead to misunderstanding
15:43:59 <paddy> paddy has joined #dap
15:44:01 <jmorris> tlr: if this value is useful for more than just itself, it may be "generic"
15:44:22 <jmorris> tlr: cpu fan value may monitor for itself 
15:44:50 <darobin> RESOLUTION: use a "generic use case"/"apps not directly targeted at monitoring the said sensors" measurement to decide whether something is to be included in SysInfo or not
15:44:55 <fhirsch> in essence resolution says use case driven material can be included,  platform specifics not included
15:45:14 <schittur2> q+
15:45:28 <tlr> q+ to ask whether to track the "encrypted" piece as issue
15:45:36 <jmorris> schittur: on calendar api, did sent out draft use cases and requirements
15:45:55 <jmorris> looking at intersection of different calendar apis
15:46:07 <jmorris> will send to whole group next week 
15:46:11 <jmorris> or soon after
15:46:19 <darobin> ack schittur
15:46:20 <schittur2> q-
15:46:28 <darobin> ack tlr
15:46:29 <jmorris> tlr: 2 questions:
15:46:44 <tlr> ack thom
15:46:44 <Zakim> Thomas, you wanted to ask whether to track the "encrypted" piece as issue
15:46:51 <jmorris> encrypted attribute on network interface
15:47:14 <jmorris> re net interfaces, some sensor data might permit to infer additional info
15:47:24 <fjh> link to suresh message on calendar use cases - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2009Dec/0241.html
15:47:26 <jmorris> such as net interfaces or location
15:47:49 <jmorris> darobin: open issues on these points
15:47:55 <jmorris> tlr: will do so
15:47:55 <fhirsch> +1 to opening issues
15:48:13 <jmorris> .... singing ...
15:48:25 <wonsuk> thanks
15:48:27 <Zakim> -Dom
15:48:28 <Zakim> -Laura_Arribas
15:48:28 <Zakim> -Thomas
15:48:29 <jmorris> closing call...
15:48:29 <Zakim> -Suresh
15:48:29 <Zakim> -darobin
15:48:30 <paddy> thanks
15:48:31 <Zakim> -maxf
15:48:31 <Zakim> -marcin
15:48:33 <Zakim> -fjh
15:48:34 <wonsuk> wonsuk has left #dap
15:48:36 <Zakim> -paddy
15:48:38 <Zakim> -jmorris
15:48:39 <Zakim> -wonsuk
15:48:40 <fhirsch> rrsagent, generate minutes
15:48:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/06-dap-minutes.html fhirsch
15:48:57 <Zakim> -arve
15:48:59 <Zakim> UW_DAP()10:00AM has ended
15:49:01 <Zakim> Attendees were fjh, darobin, maxf, paddy, wonsuk, Thomas, Suresh, Laura_Arribas, Dom, jmorris, +49.208.4.aabb, marcin, arve
15:51:43 <dom> Zakim, bye
15:51:43 <Zakim> Zakim has left #dap
16:06:37 <arve> arve has left #dap
16:15:16 <darobin> mmmm, I just remembered that if we publish Contacts, we need to publish Core Device
16:16:17 <tlr_> tlr_ has joined #dap
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