IRC log of dap on 2010-01-06
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 14:44:13 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #dap
- 14:44:13 [RRSAgent]
- logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/01/06-dap-irc
- 14:44:15 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, make logs world
- 14:44:15 [Zakim]
- Zakim has joined #dap
- 14:44:17 [trackbot]
- Zakim, this will be DAP
- 14:44:17 [Zakim]
- ok, trackbot; I see UW_DAP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 16 minutes
- 14:44:18 [trackbot]
- Meeting: Device APIs and Policy Working Group Teleconference
- 14:44:18 [trackbot]
- Date: 06 January 2010
- 14:44:36 [fjh]
- Chair: Robin_Berjon, Frederick_Hirsch
- 14:44:44 [fjh]
- Present: Robin_Berjon, Frederick_Hirsch
- 14:45:26 [fjh]
- Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2009Dec/0298.html
- 14:47:48 [cardona507]
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- 14:48:46 [tlr]
- Present+ ThomasRoessler
- 14:48:58 [Dzung_Tran]
- Dzung_Tran has joined #dap
- 14:49:08 [Dzung_Tran]
- Present+ Dzung_Tran
- 14:49:47 [wonsuk]
- Present+ Wonsuk_Lee
- 14:51:43 [darobin]
- Present+ Robin_Berjon
- 14:52:17 [fjh]
- Regrets: Anssi Kostiainen, Marco Marengo
- 14:53:35 [paddy]
- Present+ Paddy_Byers
- 14:54:10 [paddy]
- fjh, sorry but my internet connection is going up and down all the time
- 14:54:22 [paddy]
- I will do it next time if it's ok
- 14:54:48 [paddy]
- snowbound, unable to reach office and working from home :)
- 14:55:41 [fjh]
- action: fjh fix Seoul time in agenda to be 24:00
- 14:55:41 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-78 - Fix Seoul time in agenda to be 24:00 [on Frederick Hirsch - due 2010-01-13].
- 14:56:22 [paddy]
- similarly, agenda says 1400 UTC, I think it is 1500 UTC
- 14:57:38 [Zakim]
- UW_DAP()10:00AM has now started
- 14:57:45 [Zakim]
- +[IPcaller]
- 14:57:55 [fjh]
- zakim, [IPcaller] is fjh
- 14:57:55 [Zakim]
- +fjh; got it
- 14:57:58 [Zakim]
- + +0148375aaaa
- 14:58:35 [Zakim]
- +??P16
- 14:58:47 [fhirsch]
- fhirsch has joined #dap
- 14:58:58 [cardona507]
- I am a member of the HTMLwg - but for some reason I am having trouble submitting the form to join this group - It looks like the form expired on new years - any ideas?
- 14:58:58 [Zakim]
- +maxf
- 14:59:07 [paddy]
- zakim, +0148375aaaa is paddy
- 14:59:07 [Zakim]
- +paddy; got it
- 14:59:23 [fjh]
- tlr can you pls help cardona507?
- 14:59:51 [cardona507]
- I am a student and "invited expert" - I don't represent a company per se
- 15:00:01 [paddy]
- I can scribe until my connection disappears
- 15:00:26 [fhirsch]
- paddy, perhaps you can scribe next week and we can choose someone else for today
- 15:00:40 [cardona507]
- dom - should I send an email to the chairs? and if so where?
- 15:00:43 [paddy]
- ok, thanks
- 15:00:49 [darobin]
- yeah, we don't want a scribe that drops off
- 15:01:00 [darobin]
- or gets caught in an avalanche
- 15:01:05 [LauraArribas]
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- 15:01:06 [schittur2]
- schittur2 has joined #dap
- 15:01:14 [Zakim]
- +wonsuk
- 15:01:28 [cardona507]
- thank dom - have a good meeting everyone
- 15:01:29 [schittur2]
- Present+ Suresh_Chitturi
- 15:01:29 [LauraArribas]
- Present+ Laura_Arribas
- 15:01:31 [dom]
- zakim, code?
- 15:01:32 [tlr]
- zakim, call thomas-781
- 15:01:36 [Zakim]
- the conference code is 3279 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), dom
- 15:01:40 [tlr]
- zakim, I am thomas
- 15:01:40 [Zakim]
- ok, tlr; the call is being made
- 15:01:45 [tlr]
- zakim, mute me
- 15:01:46 [Zakim]
- +Thomas
- 15:01:52 [Zakim]
- ok, tlr, I now associate you with Thomas
- 15:01:56 [Zakim]
- Thomas should now be muted
- 15:02:10 [Zakim]
- +Suresh
- 15:02:42 [Zakim]
- +Laura_Arribas
- 15:02:42 [cardona507]
- cardona507 has left #dap
- 15:02:58 [Zakim]
- +Dom
- 15:03:05 [dom]
- Present+ Dominique_Hazael-Massieux
- 15:03:07 [jmorris]
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- 15:03:17 [dom]
- zakim, mute m
- 15:03:17 [Zakim]
- maxf should now be muted
- 15:03:28 [cardona507]
- cardona507 has joined #dap
- 15:03:41 [jmorris]
- present+ John_Morris
- 15:03:51 [jmorris]
- yes
- 15:03:54 [fhirsch]
- zakim, who is here?
- 15:03:54 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see fjh, paddy, darobin (muted), maxf (muted), wonsuk, Thomas (muted), Suresh, Laura_Arribas, Dom
- 15:03:57 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see cardona507, jmorris, schittur2, LauraArribas, fhirsch, Dzung_Tran, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, wonsuk, paddy, arve, maxf, darobin, tlr, ilkka, blassey, shepazu, arg, dom,
- 15:03:59 [Zakim]
- ... trackbot
- 15:04:26 [Zakim]
- +jmorris
- 15:05:03 [darobin]
- Scribe: John Morris
- 15:05:08 [darobin]
- ScribeNick: jmorris
- 15:06:10 [fhirsch]
- Paddy will scribe next week
- 15:06:37 [marcin]
- marcin has joined #dap
- 15:06:46 [jmorris]
- minutes from dec. 16
- 15:06:51 [fhirsch]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2009Dec/att-0231/minutes-2009-12-16.html
- 15:06:53 [jmorris]
- topic: minutes approval
- 15:07:07 [jmorris]
- resolution: minutes from 16-dec approved
- 15:07:13 [jmorris]
- topic: policy
- 15:07:25 [fhirsch]
- ReSpec, added refNote and additionalCopyrightHolders
- 15:07:43 [jmorris]
- who?
- 15:07:45 [fhirsch]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2009Dec/0293.html
- 15:08:02 [fhirsch]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2009Dec/0295.html
- 15:08:04 [marcin]
- Present+ Marcin_Hanclik
- 15:08:06 [jmorris]
- some discussion of document on list
- 15:08:13 [fhirsch]
- action-63?
- 15:08:13 [trackbot]
- ACTION-63 -- Laura Arribas to review http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2009Nov/0044.html -- due 2009-11-25 -- CLOSED
- 15:08:13 [trackbot]
- http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/63
- 15:08:40 [fhirsch]
- TAG response
- 15:08:43 [tlr]
- topic: TAG response
- 15:08:50 [jmorris]
- topic: tag response
- 15:09:04 [fhirsch]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2009Dec/0297.htm
- 15:09:08 [darobin]
- FH: any objection to sending to the TAG?
- 15:09:10 [darobin]
- [none]
- 15:09:12 [fhirsch]
- will send this today, given no comment
- 15:09:14 [tlr]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2009Dec/0297.html
- 15:09:20 [jmorris]
- resolution: fhirsch to send tag response
- 15:09:29 [dom]
- ACTION-69?
- 15:09:29 [trackbot]
- ACTION-69 -- Paddy Byers to provide use cases for the policy requirements document -- due 2009-12-11 -- OPEN
- 15:09:29 [trackbot]
- http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/69
- 15:09:41 [dom]
- -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2010Jan/0031.html Policy Use cases from Paddy
- 15:10:05 [Zakim]
- + +49.208.4.aabb
- 15:10:17 [marcin]
- Zakim, aabb is marcin
- 15:10:17 [Zakim]
- +marcin; got it
- 15:10:43 [jmorris]
- paddy: working on use cases
- 15:11:02 [jmorris]
- how does this relate to policy requirements documents
- 15:11:48 [jmorris]
- fhirsch: these should go into requirements documents
- 15:12:09 [dom]
- +1 on integrating in requirements for now
- 15:12:25 [wonsuk]
- +1
- 15:12:26 [darobin]
- +1 too
- 15:12:41 [jmorris]
- fhirsch: tlr did work on security in apis
- 15:12:42 [dom]
- [I think it would be useful if the use cases distinguished or highlighted which apply to widget vs open web apps]
- 15:12:50 [tlr]
- [+1 to dom]
- 15:12:55 [darobin]
- [me too!]
- 15:14:45 [jmorris]
- paddy: need detail in use cases and derive requirements from them
- 15:14:57 [jmorris]
- need to determine implied requirements in API
- 15:15:34 [jmorris]
- apis should be capable of being used without presumption of trust
- 15:15:38 [fhirsch]
- paddy suggests possible requirement - apis should be capabable of being mediated by policy but not required to be mediated by policy
- 15:15:43 [dom]
- q+
- 15:15:46 [dom]
- ack me
- 15:15:48 [fhirsch]
- ack dom
- 15:16:31 [fhirsch]
- dom asks whether use cases apply to non-trusted environment
- 15:17:03 [jmorris]
- fhirsch: there will always be non-trusted cases
- 15:17:24 [jmorris]
- paddy: there is not always a presumption of trust with web site
- 15:17:24 [Zakim]
- +??P6
- 15:17:34 [arve]
- Zakim, P6 is me
- 15:17:34 [Zakim]
- sorry, arve, I do not recognize a party named 'P6'
- 15:17:36 [dom]
- [paddy captured well the questions I had in mind]
- 15:17:42 [jmorris]
- with widget, one goes through an install process with some suggestion of trust
- 15:17:57 [cardona507]
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- 15:18:14 [jmorris]
- paddy: there is a difference between two environments, but the apis should be capable of both environments
- 15:18:41 [fhirsch]
- q+
- 15:18:44 [Dzung_Tran]
- I think we should strive for both environment
- 15:18:45 [jmorris]
- dom: wg should be able to set ground rules for use of APIs in trusted environments
- 15:19:05 [fhirsch]
- q-
- 15:20:09 [jmorris]
- fhirsch: dom put something on the list on this?
- 15:20:11 [schittur2]
- Robin - i dont think i saw one as well
- 15:20:21 [dom]
- zakim, mute me
- 15:20:21 [Zakim]
- Dom should now be muted
- 15:21:11 [dom]
- ACTION: Paddy to integrate his use cases in policy requirements
- 15:21:11 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-79 - Integrate his use cases in policy requirements [on Paddy Byers - due 2010-01-13].
- 15:21:12 [jmorris]
- fhirsch: paddy should work to integrate use cases in to requirements doc
- 15:21:40 [dom]
- ACTION-77?
- 15:21:40 [trackbot]
- ACTION-77 -- John Morris to provide a discussion of requirements for privacy -- due 2010-01-19 -- OPEN
- 15:21:40 [trackbot]
- http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/77
- 15:22:34 [jmorris]
- topic: api issues
- 15:22:58 [jmorris]
- darobin: lots happening
- 15:23:28 [paddybyers]
- paddybyers has joined #dap
- 15:23:56 [jmorris]
- [very hard time hearing you robin]
- 15:24:42 [dom]
- [I suggest sending the CfC now, with one week review]
- 15:24:49 [tlr]
- [+1]
- 15:24:52 [fhirsch]
- +1 to DOM
- 15:24:55 [jmorris]
- darobin: should we wait to discuss CfC today or next week?
- 15:24:57 [dom]
- s/DOM/Dom/
- 15:24:57 [tlr]
- s/DOM/Dom/
- 15:24:57 [schittur2]
- +1
- 15:24:58 [fhirsch]
- s/DOM/Dom
- 15:25:03 [jmorris]
- we will discuss nextr week
- 15:25:09 [jmorris]
- s/nextr/next/
- 15:25:33 [tlr]
- ack maxf
- 15:25:33 [dom]
- zakim, unmute maxf
- 15:25:37 [maxf]
- gah!
- 15:25:37 [Zakim]
- maxf was not muted, dom
- 15:25:39 [Zakim]
- -maxf
- 15:25:45 [maxf]
- brb
- 15:26:16 [jmorris]
- darobin: not much work on other issues in past couple of weeks
- 15:26:27 [fhirsch]
- q+
- 15:26:27 [jmorris]
- [waiting for maxf to return]
- 15:26:28 [Zakim]
- +maxf
- 15:26:37 [jmorris]
- maxf:
- 15:26:59 [jmorris]
- maxf: discussions about what to put into each individual property about which we have info
- 15:27:14 [jmorris]
- questions are unlined by general principles....
- 15:27:25 [jmorris]
- are there use cases for properties we are going to include
- 15:27:30 [tlr]
- q+ to attempt framing the higher-level decision
- 15:27:34 [jmorris]
- decisions need to be made on case by case basis
- 15:27:41 [fhirsch]
- q-
- 15:27:51 [schittur2]
- q+
- 15:28:02 [jmorris]
- questions about how much privacy/security sensitivity with each property
- 15:28:10 [dom]
- zakim, mute robin
- 15:28:10 [Zakim]
- sorry, dom, I do not know which phone connection belongs to robin
- 15:28:14 [dom]
- zakim, mute darobin
- 15:28:14 [Zakim]
- darobin should now be muted
- 15:29:09 [jmorris]
- maxf: need to hear from people who care
- 15:29:12 [tlr]
- ack thomas
- 15:29:14 [Zakim]
- Thomas, you wanted to attempt framing the higher-level decision
- 15:29:24 [jmorris]
- tlr: agree with max's framing
- 15:29:45 [jmorris]
- at least for subset of comments, one approach to ask is this in scope for work we want to do
- 15:30:08 [jmorris]
- broad question: do we want to provide info for run time execution environment
- 15:30:16 [jmorris]
- e.g., cpu, etc.
- 15:30:42 [jmorris]
- other comments: network area - do we believe that network is taken as a given
- 15:30:57 [jmorris]
- or do we need more info on network connectivity
- 15:31:23 [jmorris]
- sub issue - detailed info on network can equal location info....
- 15:31:27 [tlr]
- zakjim, mute me
- 15:31:29 [tlr]
- zakim, mute me
- 15:31:29 [Zakim]
- Thomas should now be muted
- 15:31:36 [jmorris]
- schittur:
- 15:32:04 [jmorris]
- tend agree that properties like cpu, etc., are attributes that vendors do not want to expose
- 15:32:20 [jmorris]
- in practice, unlikely that apps will adjust based on these properties
- 15:32:31 [dom]
- [I think the uses cases are for applications whose role is actually to deal with these low-level details]
- 15:32:34 [jmorris]
- we should focus on more import things like displays, IO
- 15:32:37 [jmorris]
- storage
- 15:32:59 [dom]
- q+ to propose a framing
- 15:33:00 [tlr]
- dom, right -- the question is whether we assume CPU and network are managed by the runtime, or whether we think we're managing them.
- 15:33:01 [jmorris]
- prefer not to expose cpu, other details
- 15:33:08 [darobin]
- ack dom
- 15:33:09 [Zakim]
- dom, you wanted to propose a framing
- 15:33:09 [jmorris]
- dom:
- 15:33:14 [schittur2]
- q-
- 15:33:19 [jmorris]
- dom: thanks maxf for work on this....
- 15:33:28 [darobin]
- indeed, thanks maxf!
- 15:33:38 [fhirsch]
- +1
- 15:33:53 [jmorris]
- good way to frame this this for v1 of spec -- we only focus on general purpose application features
- 15:33:56 [tlr]
- thanks maxf!
- 15:34:17 [jmorris]
- and we not focus on cpu and less general purpose properties
- 15:34:42 [jmorris]
- darobin: this could be a separate spec versus a different version
- 15:34:54 [jmorris]
- darobin: agree with dom's framing
- 15:35:01 [fhirsch]
- q+
- 15:35:13 [tlr]
- :)
- 15:35:16 [jmorris]
- maxf: happy to focus on general purpose application features
- 15:35:25 [Dzung_Tran]
- for completeness don't we want to cover CPU, however I am fine with moving it to later version
- 15:35:59 [jmorris]
- maxf: temperature is hard
- 15:36:17 [dom]
- Regrets+ DavidRogers
- 15:36:17 [fhirsch]
- does this principle mean, not include what is marked as "interna"
- 15:36:21 [jmorris]
- don't know how to simply draft with several thermometers
- 15:36:26 [fhirsch]
- s/interna/internal
- 15:36:32 [fhirsch]
- q?
- 15:36:44 [tlr]
- I'd drop thermo, battery, cpu, fan.
- 15:36:51 [wonsuk]
- +1 for moving general things to later version.
- 15:37:06 [jmorris]
- darobin: might make sense to have more complex thermal but simpler cpu
- 15:37:15 [Dzung_Tran]
- What is so hard about temperature?
- 15:37:15 [dom]
- [I think something should be kept when attached with a "generic" use case]
- 15:37:44 [tlr]
- I'm fine with keeping external temperature, but would drop internal temperature sensors.
- 15:37:47 [jmorris]
- fhirsch: not sure what "general purpose application features" mean
- 15:37:49 [Dzung_Tran]
- Temperature is extremely important in mobile device
- 15:37:57 [jmorris]
- maxf: I could write proposal on list
- 15:37:59 [schittur2]
- q+
- 15:38:05 [darobin]
- ack fhirsch
- 15:38:10 [tlr]
- Dzung, how about commenting on the phone?
- 15:38:20 [darobin]
- ack schittur2
- 15:38:26 [darobin]
- ack schittur
- 15:38:30 [jmorris]
- action: maxf to write to list of properties to drop or simplify
- 15:38:31 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-80 - Write to list of properties to drop or simplify [on Max Froumentin - due 2010-01-13].
- 15:38:51 [jmorris]
- s/list of/list on/
- 15:39:03 [Dzung_Tran]
- I can't join today, actually I need to drop right now, sorry
- 15:39:39 [darobin]
- q?
- 15:39:46 [tlr]
- ack thom
- 15:39:53 [schittur2]
- Input/Output, Codec support, Network coverage are fairly common and useful properties to have
- 15:40:11 [jmorris]
- tlr: device management applications are not a generic use case
- 15:40:12 [dom]
- zakim, am I muted?
- 15:40:12 [Zakim]
- I don't understand your question, dom.
- 15:40:14 [fhirsch]
- not sure resolution is needed, but ok with me - still will have to make decisions of what it means
- 15:40:16 [dom]
- zakim, who's muted?
- 15:40:16 [Zakim]
- I see no one muted
- 15:40:22 [tlr]
- zakim, mute me
- 15:40:22 [Zakim]
- Thomas should now be muted
- 15:40:39 [schittur2]
- Internal, and sensor related properties are very low-level and not general purpose properties
- 15:40:55 [dom]
- "apps not directly targeted at monitoring the said sensors"
- 15:41:08 [darobin]
- PROPOSED RESOLUTION: use a "generic use case"/"apps not directly targeted at monitoring the said sensors" measurement to decide whether something is to be included in SysInfo or not
- 15:41:23 [tlr]
- good enough
- 15:41:33 [fhirsch]
- q+
- 15:41:46 [darobin]
- MF: sounds good
- 15:41:52 [dom]
- [maybe s/SysInfo/SysInfo v1/]
- 15:42:11 [tlr]
- oh, yes, webapps globally reconfiguring the keyboard! That's fun.
- 15:42:14 [jmorris]
- fhirsch: what about keyboard, camera flash? is that general?
- 15:42:15 [fhirsch]
- q-
- 15:42:38 [tlr]
- q+
- 15:42:42 [tlr]
- ack thomas
- 15:42:44 [jmorris]
- darobin: there is a general use case for knowing keyboard type
- 15:43:03 [jmorris]
- tlr: some settings are set-able
- 15:43:08 [jmorris]
- not all are just read-only
- 15:43:20 [jmorris]
- some will lead to misunderstanding
- 15:43:59 [paddy]
- paddy has joined #dap
- 15:44:01 [jmorris]
- tlr: if this value is useful for more than just itself, it may be "generic"
- 15:44:22 [jmorris]
- tlr: cpu fan value may monitor for itself
- 15:44:50 [darobin]
- RESOLUTION: use a "generic use case"/"apps not directly targeted at monitoring the said sensors" measurement to decide whether something is to be included in SysInfo or not
- 15:44:55 [fhirsch]
- in essence resolution says use case driven material can be included, platform specifics not included
- 15:45:14 [schittur2]
- q+
- 15:45:28 [tlr]
- q+ to ask whether to track the "encrypted" piece as issue
- 15:45:36 [jmorris]
- schittur: on calendar api, did sent out draft use cases and requirements
- 15:45:55 [jmorris]
- looking at intersection of different calendar apis
- 15:46:07 [jmorris]
- will send to whole group next week
- 15:46:11 [jmorris]
- or soon after
- 15:46:19 [darobin]
- ack schittur
- 15:46:20 [schittur2]
- q-
- 15:46:28 [darobin]
- ack tlr
- 15:46:29 [jmorris]
- tlr: 2 questions:
- 15:46:44 [tlr]
- ack thom
- 15:46:44 [Zakim]
- Thomas, you wanted to ask whether to track the "encrypted" piece as issue
- 15:46:51 [jmorris]
- encrypted attribute on network interface
- 15:47:14 [jmorris]
- re net interfaces, some sensor data might permit to infer additional info
- 15:47:24 [fjh]
- link to suresh message on calendar use cases - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2009Dec/0241.html
- 15:47:26 [jmorris]
- such as net interfaces or location
- 15:47:49 [jmorris]
- darobin: open issues on these points
- 15:47:55 [jmorris]
- tlr: will do so
- 15:47:55 [fhirsch]
- +1 to opening issues
- 15:48:13 [jmorris]
- .... singing ...
- 15:48:25 [wonsuk]
- thanks
- 15:48:27 [Zakim]
- -Dom
- 15:48:28 [Zakim]
- -Laura_Arribas
- 15:48:28 [Zakim]
- -Thomas
- 15:48:29 [jmorris]
- closing call...
- 15:48:29 [Zakim]
- -Suresh
- 15:48:29 [Zakim]
- -darobin
- 15:48:30 [paddy]
- thanks
- 15:48:31 [Zakim]
- -maxf
- 15:48:31 [Zakim]
- -marcin
- 15:48:33 [Zakim]
- -fjh
- 15:48:34 [wonsuk]
- wonsuk has left #dap
- 15:48:36 [Zakim]
- -paddy
- 15:48:38 [Zakim]
- -jmorris
- 15:48:39 [Zakim]
- -wonsuk
- 15:48:40 [fhirsch]
- rrsagent, generate minutes
- 15:48:40 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/06-dap-minutes.html fhirsch
- 15:48:57 [Zakim]
- -arve
- 15:48:59 [Zakim]
- UW_DAP()10:00AM has ended
- 15:49:01 [Zakim]
- Attendees were fjh, darobin, maxf, paddy, wonsuk, Thomas, Suresh, Laura_Arribas, Dom, jmorris, +49.208.4.aabb, marcin, arve
- 15:51:43 [dom]
- Zakim, bye
- 15:51:43 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #dap
- 16:06:37 [arve]
- arve has left #dap
- 16:15:16 [darobin]
- mmmm, I just remembered that if we publish Contacts, we need to publish Core Device
- 16:16:17 [tlr_]
- tlr_ has joined #dap
- 18:30:25 [Marcos]
- Marcos has joined #dap
- 19:01:18 [cardona507]
- cardona507 has joined #dap
- 19:11:11 [Marcos_]
- Marcos_ has joined #dap
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- drogers has joined #dap