SPARQL Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 20 March 2012

Agenda
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2012JanMar/0262.html
Seen
Andy Seaborne, Axel Polleres, Birte Glimm, Carlos Buil Aranda, Chimezie Ogbuji, Eric Prud'hommeaux, Gregory Williams, Lee Feigenbaum, Matthew Perry, Olivier Corby, Paul Gearon, Sandro Hawke, Steve Harris
Regrets
Gregory Williams, Chimezie Ogbuji
Scribe
Andy Seaborne
IRC Log
Original and Editable Wiki Version
Resolutions
  1. Add a DISTINCT modifier around full property paths to SPARQL 1.1 Query, and add work on counting & non-counting operators or partial paths to the future work list link
Topics
13:55:38 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/20-sparql-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/20-sparql-irc

13:55:40 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

13:55:42 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 77277

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 77277

13:55:42 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes

13:55:43 <trackbot> Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference
13:55:43 <trackbot> Date: 20 March 2012
13:55:48 <LeeF> zakim, this will be SPARQL

Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, this will be SPARQL

13:55:48 <Zakim> ok, LeeF; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, LeeF; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes

13:56:04 <LeeF> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2012JanMar/0262.html
13:56:10 <LeeF> Regrets: chimezie, kasei
13:56:30 <LeeF> Last week's minutes: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2012-03-13

Lee Feigenbaum: Last week's minutes: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2012-03-13

13:56:54 <LeeF> SteveH, any chance I could trouble you to scribe today?

Lee Feigenbaum: SteveH, any chance I could trouble you to scribe today?

13:57:19 <SteveH> LeeF, hm, think I did a stint not that long ago - it would be possible I think

Steve Harris: LeeF, hm, think I did a stint not that long ago - it would be possible I think

13:57:59 <SteveH> …depending on voice quality, it's a bit variable over voip

Steve Harris: …depending on voice quality, it's a bit variable over voip

13:57:59 <LeeF> I've no doubt that you're right - our scribe list is rather bit-rotted these days -- so no worries if you'd rather not

Lee Feigenbaum: I've no doubt that you're right - our scribe list is rather bit-rotted these days -- so no worries if you'd rather not

13:58:25 <SteveH> I would rather not, but if you can't get a volunteer I'll do it

Steve Harris: I would rather not, but if you can't get a volunteer I'll do it

13:58:29 <LeeF> thanks

Lee Feigenbaum: thanks

13:58:35 <LeeF> pgearon, any chance you could scribe for us today?

Lee Feigenbaum: pgearon, any chance you could scribe for us today?

13:58:49 <LeeF> zakim, code?

Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, code?

13:58:49 <Zakim> the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), LeeF

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), LeeF

13:59:38 <pgearon> LeeF, I may have problems

Paul Gearon: LeeF, I may have problems

13:59:38 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started

13:59:45 <Zakim> +LeeF

Zakim IRC Bot: +LeeF

13:59:46 <Zakim> +??P10

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P10

13:59:52 <SteveH> Zakim, ??P10 is me

Steve Harris: Zakim, ??P10 is me

13:59:52 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +SteveH; got it

14:00:03 <pgearon> I have JUST got a notification of "Tornado warning" for our neighborhood

Paul Gearon: I have JUST got a notification of "Tornado warning" for our neighborhood

14:00:10 <pgearon> like about 3 minutes ago

Paul Gearon: like about 3 minutes ago

14:00:15 <LeeF> wow

Lee Feigenbaum: wow

14:00:27 <Zakim> +Olivier_

Zakim IRC Bot: +Olivier_

14:00:38 <LeeF> good ol' "can't scribe; tornado". it's like the "dog ate my homework" of standards work

Lee Feigenbaum: good ol' "can't scribe; tornado". it's like the "dog ate my homework" of standards work

14:00:53 <pgearon> we have storms forecast for today, I'm just trying to figure out if it's supposed to be a drill or something

Paul Gearon: we have storms forecast for today, I'm just trying to figure out if it's supposed to be a drill or something

14:00:53 <SteveH> we've got guys with jackhammers outside the office, which means I'll have to keep muting

Steve Harris: we've got guys with jackhammers outside the office, which means I'll have to keep muting

14:01:04 <LeeF> seriously though, be careful, Paul!

Lee Feigenbaum: seriously though, be careful, Paul!

14:01:36 <Zakim> +??P20

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P20

14:01:46 <bglimm> Zakim, ??P20 is me

Birte Glimm: Zakim, ??P20 is me

14:01:46 <Zakim> +bglimm; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +bglimm; got it

14:01:55 <LeeF> zakim, who's on the phone?

Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, who's on the phone?

14:01:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see SteveH, LeeF, Olivier_, bglimm

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see SteveH, LeeF, Olivier_, bglimm

14:02:17 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me

Birte Glimm: Zakim, mute me

14:02:19 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bglimm should now be muted

14:02:26 <Zakim> +MattPerry

Zakim IRC Bot: +MattPerry

14:02:28 <Zakim> +??P26

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P26

14:02:32 <AndyS> zakim, P26 is me

Andy Seaborne: zakim, P26 is me

14:02:33 <Zakim> sorry, AndyS, I do not recognize a party named 'P26'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, AndyS, I do not recognize a party named 'P26'

14:02:37 <AndyS> zakim, ??P26 is me

Andy Seaborne: zakim, ??P26 is me

14:02:37 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it

14:03:00 <Zakim> +AxelPolleres

Zakim IRC Bot: +AxelPolleres

14:03:11 <bglimm> Zakim, unmute me

Birte Glimm: Zakim, unmute me

14:03:11 <Zakim> bglimm should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bglimm should no longer be muted

14:03:38 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me

Birte Glimm: Zakim, mute me

14:03:38 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bglimm should now be muted

14:03:51 <LeeF> zakim, who

Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, who

14:03:51 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who', LeeF

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'who', LeeF

14:03:54 <LeeF> zakim, who's here?

Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, who's here?

14:03:54 <Zakim> On the phone I see SteveH, LeeF, Olivier_, bglimm (muted), MattPerry, AndyS, AxelPolleres

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see SteveH, LeeF, Olivier_, bglimm (muted), MattPerry, AndyS, AxelPolleres

14:03:56 <Zakim> On IRC I see cbuilara, MattPerry, AxelPolleres, Zakim, RRSAgent, LeeF, Olivier, MacTed, bglimm, SteveH, pgearon, AndyS, NickH, trackbot, kasei, ya, ericP, sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see cbuilara, MattPerry, AxelPolleres, Zakim, RRSAgent, LeeF, Olivier, MacTed, bglimm, SteveH, pgearon, AndyS, NickH, trackbot, kasei, ya, ericP, sandro

14:04:17 <LeeF> cbuilara, ericP, sandro, NickH -- will you be joining us today?

Lee Feigenbaum: cbuilara, ericP, sandro, NickH -- will you be joining us today?

14:04:41 <AndyS> I'll scribe

Andy Seaborne: I'll scribe

14:04:56 <AndyS> but if the discussions get going, may need help.

Andy Seaborne: but if the discussions get going, may need help.

14:05:12 <AndyS> scribenick: AndyS

(Scribe set to Andy Seaborne)

14:05:17 <AndyS> topic: Admin

1. Admin

14:06:04 <AndyS> regrets: kasei, chimezie
14:06:06 <LeeF> Next meeting: March 27th, back to standard time everywhere

Lee Feigenbaum: Next meeting: March 27th, back to standard time everywhere

14:06:17 <bglimm> I am not around

Birte Glimm: I am not around

14:06:17 <sandro> LeeF, sorry, regrets --- this meeting conflicts with eGov IG this week due to time zone craziness.

Sandro Hawke: LeeF, sorry, regrets --- this meeting conflicts with eGov IG this week due to time zone craziness.

14:06:26 <bglimm> or at least at risk

Birte Glimm: or at least at risk

14:06:29 <LeeF> Regrets +sandro

Lee Feigenbaum: Regrets +sandro

14:07:08 <LeeF> sandro, if you have a feeling on the property paths options as summarized in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2012JanMar/0262.html, it would be awesome to have you share it in IRC :)

Lee Feigenbaum: sandro, if you have a feeling on the property paths options as summarized in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2012JanMar/0262.html, it would be awesome to have you share it in IRC :)

14:07:42 <AndyS> regrets: kasei, chimezie
14:08:03 <LeeF> LeeF: anything we're likely to change based on recent grammar / escaping changes?

Lee Feigenbaum: anything we're likely to change based on recent grammar / escaping changes? [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:08:10 <AndyS> topic: RDF-WG

2. RDF-WG

14:08:12 <LeeF> AndyS: not likely, editors not inclined to make changes -- nothing resolved in RDF WG yet

Andy Seaborne: not likely, editors not inclined to make changes -- nothing resolved in RDF WG yet [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:08:32 <AndyS> Turtle editors not inclined to make changes at this time but no decision yet.

Turtle editors not inclined to make changes at this time but no decision yet.

14:08:43 <Zakim> + +1.917.522.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.917.522.aaaa

14:08:55 <cbuilara> zakim, +aaaa is me

Carlos Buil Aranda: zakim, +aaaa is me

14:08:55 <Zakim> sorry, cbuilara, I do not recognize a party named '+aaaa'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, cbuilara, I do not recognize a party named '+aaaa'

14:09:12 <cbuilara> zakim, +.aaaa is me

Carlos Buil Aranda: zakim, +.aaaa is me

14:09:12 <Zakim> sorry, cbuilara, I do not recognize a party named '+.aaaa'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, cbuilara, I do not recognize a party named '+.aaaa'

14:09:20 <Zakim> - +1.917.522.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.917.522.aaaa

14:09:36 <Zakim> + +1.917.522.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.917.522.aabb

14:09:44 <LeeF> topic: property paths

3. property paths

14:09:49 <LeeF> summary email: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2012JanMar/0262.html

Lee Feigenbaum: summary email: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2012JanMar/0262.html

14:09:51 <AndyS> Topic: Property Paths

4. Property Paths

14:09:59 <cbuilara> zakim, +1.917.522.aabb is me

Carlos Buil Aranda: zakim, +1.917.522.aabb is me

14:09:59 <Zakim> +cbuilara; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +cbuilara; got it

14:10:17 <AndyS> Goal - ask what people think currently and have a strawpoll.

Goal - ask what people think currently and have a strawpoll.

14:10:25 <AndyS> LeeF: Goal - ask what people think currently and have a strawpoll.

Lee Feigenbaum: Goal - ask what people think currently and have a strawpoll.

14:10:27 <Zakim> +pgearon

Zakim IRC Bot: +pgearon

14:10:37 <Zakim> +ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: +ericP

14:10:40 <AndyS> ... hopefully to choose a direction.

... hopefully to choose a direction.

14:11:07 <AndyS> ... Opt 1 - as 2LC.  Rewrite using SELECT DISTINCT subquery.

... Opt 1 - as 2LC. Rewrite using SELECT DISTINCT subquery.

14:11:22 <AndyS> ... no LC, no new issues from new designs.

... no LC, no new issues from new designs.

14:11:52 <AndyS> ... but objections may be raised so needs a justification to the director

... but objections may be raised so needs a justification to the director

14:12:00 <AndyS> ... 3 commenters involved

... 3 commenters involved

14:12:30 <AndyS> ... and it may not the best choice (from experience and theory).

... and it may not the best choice (from experience and theory).

14:12:39 <ericP> do we have any use cases from the potential objecters where rewriting in a DISTINCT subselect won't suffice?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: do we have any use cases from the potential objecters where rewriting in a DISTINCT subselect won't suffice?

14:13:16 <AndyS> Opt 2 -- DISTINCT, non-counting * and +, counting {*}, {+}

Opt 2 -- DISTINCT, non-counting * and +, counting {*}, {+}

14:13:33 <AndyS> ... addresses concerns (offlist private conversation had)

... addresses concerns (offlist private conversation had)

14:13:42 <AndyS> ... full range of possibilities.

... full range of possibilities.

14:14:02 <AndyS> ... but 3LC needed

... but 3LC needed

14:14:08 <AndyS> ... more implementation tax

... more implementation tax

14:14:20 <AndyS> ... new and quite late.

... new and quite late.

14:14:36 <AndyS> (dragons of various colors possible)

(dragons of various colors possible)

14:15:10 <AndyS> Opt 3 -- just add DISTINCT around path  (?? part paths or full path only)

Opt 3 -- just add DISTINCT around path (?? part paths or full path only)

14:15:23 <AndyS> ... some expressivity choices

... some expressivity choices

14:15:38 <AndyS> ... 3LC, and impl tax.

... 3LC, and impl tax.

14:16:13 <AndyS> Opt 4 -- Just */+ and {*}/{+}, no DISTINCT operator.

Opt 4 -- Just */+ and {*}/{+}, no DISTINCT operator.

14:16:33 <AndyS> ... 3LC, may not meeting comments.

... 3LC, may not meeting comments.

14:16:51 <AndyS> Opt 5 -- make PP non-normative

Opt 5 -- make PP non-normative

14:17:11 <AndyS> ... 3LC? (unclear), lower impl tax,

... 3LC? (unclear), lower impl tax,

14:17:23 <ericP> i think that would require a new LC as folks are expecting property paths to e.g. traverse lists

Eric Prud'hommeaux: i think that would require a new LC as folks are expecting property paths to e.g. traverse lists

14:17:40 <AndyS> ... but a significant feature, and in F&R, is removed

... but a significant feature, and in F&R, is removed

14:17:56 <AndyS> ... may lead to other objections

... may lead to other objections

14:17:58 <AndyS> q+

q+

14:18:00 <bglimm> q+ to ask about (2)

Birte Glimm: q+ to ask about (2)

14:18:02 <LeeF> ack AndyS

Lee Feigenbaum: ack AndyS

14:18:14 <bglimm> Zakim, unmute me

Birte Glimm: Zakim, unmute me

14:18:14 <Zakim> bglimm should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bglimm should no longer be muted

14:18:15 <ericP> q+ to ask if we have any use cases from the potential objecters where rewriting in a DISTINCT subselect won't suffice

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to ask if we have any use cases from the potential objecters where rewriting in a DISTINCT subselect won't suffice

14:18:26 <LeeF> AndyS: technical question when you say DISTINCT(path) in 2 - do you mean whole path or some part of the path?

Andy Seaborne: technical question when you say DISTINCT(path) in 2 - do you mean whole path or some part of the path? [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:18:42 <LeeF> LeeF: whole path

Lee Feigenbaum: whole path [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:18:50 <LeeF> ack bglimm

Lee Feigenbaum: ack bglimm

14:18:50 <Zakim> bglimm, you wanted to ask about (2)

Zakim IRC Bot: bglimm, you wanted to ask about (2)

14:18:53 <AndyS> Clarification of opt 2 : DISTINCT(path) means whole path not part of a path.

Clarification of opt 2 : DISTINCT(path) means whole path not part of a path.

14:18:58 <SteveH> q+ to ask about other people's comfort

Steve Harris: q+ to ask about other people's comfort

14:18:59 <AndyS> ack me

ack me

14:19:02 <LeeF> ack ericP

Lee Feigenbaum: ack ericP

14:19:02 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to ask if we have any use cases from the potential objecters where rewriting in a DISTINCT subselect won't suffice

Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, you wanted to ask if we have any use cases from the potential objecters where rewriting in a DISTINCT subselect won't suffice

14:19:21 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me

Birte Glimm: Zakim, mute me

14:19:21 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bglimm should now be muted

14:19:38 <AndyS> eric: question - any case where SELECT DISTINCT path does not work?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: question - any case where SELECT DISTINCT path does not work?

14:19:52 <AndyS> axel: bnodes in subj/obj.

Axel Polleres: bnodes in subj/obj.

14:19:55 <AndyS> q+

q+

14:20:16 <AndyS> (basically the projection is messed up as bnodes are a sort of projection)

(basically the projection is messed up as bnodes are a sort of projection)

14:20:30 <AxelPolleres> somthing like that one ....  { ?S DISTINCT(path) [ ... ] }

Axel Polleres: somthing like that one .... { ?S DISTINCT(path) [ ... ] }

14:20:46 <AxelPolleres> ... exactly, as andy says.

Axel Polleres: ... exactly, as andy says.

14:21:32 <LeeF> AndyS: The problem with that would be that you'd be expecting implementations to recognize the distinct subqueries and do something special with it, so implementation cost wouldn't be changed at all

Andy Seaborne: The problem with that would be that you'd be expecting implementations to recognize the distinct subqueries and do something special with it, so implementation cost wouldn't be changed at all [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:21:43 <AndyS> andy: Impl burden is not changed - assumes an impl spots an optimization

Andy Seaborne: Impl burden is not changed - assumes an impl spots an optimization

14:22:33 <AndyS> q-

q-

14:22:36 <LeeF> q?

Lee Feigenbaum: q?

14:22:38 <LeeF> ack SteveH

Lee Feigenbaum: ack SteveH

14:22:38 <Zakim> SteveH, you wanted to ask about other people's comfort

Zakim IRC Bot: SteveH, you wanted to ask about other people's comfort

14:23:13 <AndyS> SteveH: reservation about understanding of PP, and significant problems may yet arise.

Steve Harris: reservation about understanding of PP, and significant problems may yet arise.

14:23:51 <AxelPolleres> q?

Axel Polleres: q?

14:24:02 <AxelPolleres> q+

Axel Polleres: q+

14:24:04 <AndyS> ... want to hear how comfortable people are with the draft text

... want to hear how comfortable people are with the draft text

14:24:16 <LeeF> ack AxelPolleres

Lee Feigenbaum: ack AxelPolleres

14:24:29 <AndyS> (andy can answer but want to hear others)

(andy can answer but want to hear others)

14:24:29 <ericP> I have not implemented them. sort of afraid of them

Eric Prud'hommeaux: I have not implemented them. sort of afraid of them

14:25:07 <AndyS> axel; Non-norm PP may address commenters concerns.

axel; Non-norm PP may address commenters concerns.

14:25:49 <pgearon> I have implemented DISTINCT property paths. Haven't done counted paths yet

Paul Gearon: I have implemented DISTINCT property paths. Haven't done counted paths yet

14:26:28 <AndyS> steveH: make new design non-norm??

Steve Harris: make new design non-norm??

14:27:00 <MattPerry> We have seen a lot of interest in property paths as a poor man's inference for transitive properties.

Matthew Perry: We have seen a lot of interest in property paths as a poor man's inference for transitive properties.

14:27:01 <pgearon> we're using property paths all the time. We use them for list membership

Paul Gearon: we're using property paths all the time. We use them for list membership

14:28:22 <AndyS> leef: see significant interest in the feature ... driven by some UCs that can't be addressed by SPARQL 1.0  e.g lists, trans properties

Lee Feigenbaum: see significant interest in the feature ... driven by some UCs that can't be addressed by SPARQL 1.0 e.g lists, trans properties

14:28:36 <LeeF> AndyS: I've found pp quite easy to implement

Andy Seaborne: I've found pp quite easy to implement [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:28:51 <LeeF> ... i've implemented a recursive evaluator that takes the operator tree straight from parsing and runs eval() on it

Lee Feigenbaum: ... i've implemented a recursive evaluator that takes the operator tree straight from parsing and runs eval() on it

14:29:23 <LeeF> ... some paths simply get rewritten into triple patterns and UNIONs

Lee Feigenbaum: ... some paths simply get rewritten into triple patterns and UNIONs

14:30:41 <LeeF> ... i've tried counting & non-counting versions on the Chileans examples (foaf:knows on clique graphs) makes huge implementation speed difference from just changing one or two lines of code

Lee Feigenbaum: ... i've tried counting & non-counting versions on the Chileans examples (foaf:knows on clique graphs) makes huge implementation speed difference from just changing one or two lines of code

14:30:52 <LeeF> ... any questions about how I've implemented this?

Lee Feigenbaum: ... any questions about how I've implemented this?

14:31:21 <LeeF> SteveH: our concerns are that it's not worth implementing unless it's optimized, and that seems to be way too much of a challenge

Steve Harris: our concerns are that it's not worth implementing unless it's optimized, and that seems to be way too much of a challenge [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:31:30 <LeeF> AndyS: I've optimized for certain use cases

Andy Seaborne: I've optimized for certain use cases [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:31:57 <LeeF> ... have not optimized for the case where subj and obj are both unconstrained, free variables

Lee Feigenbaum: ... have not optimized for the case where subj and obj are both unconstrained, free variables

14:32:44 <LeeF> SteveH: seems like it requires an entire regex engine and evaluator for an unknown language

Steve Harris: seems like it requires an entire regex engine and evaluator for an unknown language [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:32:59 <LeeF> AndyS: it's not doing regexes on strings

Andy Seaborne: it's not doing regexes on strings [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:33:04 <LeeF> SteveH: it's significantly easier?

Steve Harris: it's significantly easier? [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:33:09 <LeeF> AndyS: yes

Andy Seaborne: yes [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:33:25 <LeeF> SteveH: i don't have the intuition for why it's significantl yeasier - it still has the same backtracking problems

Steve Harris: i don't have the intuition for why it's significantl yeasier - it still has the same backtracking problems [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:33:37 <LeeF> AndyS: we don't have some regex features that makes them tricky, like capturing groups

Andy Seaborne: we don't have some regex features that makes them tricky, like capturing groups [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:33:51 <LeeF> ... this is jus the matching aspects of regexes

Lee Feigenbaum: ... this is jus the matching aspects of regexes

14:34:12 <LeeF> ... for non-counting, there's no backtracking because it's just a positive match, no negative features

Lee Feigenbaum: ... for non-counting, there's no backtracking because it's just a positive match, no negative features

14:34:39 <LeeF> q?

Lee Feigenbaum: q?

14:35:01 <LeeF> zakim, who's on the phone?

Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, who's on the phone?

14:35:01 <Zakim> On the phone I see SteveH, LeeF, Olivier_, bglimm (muted), MattPerry, AndyS, AxelPolleres, cbuilara, pgearon, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see SteveH, LeeF, Olivier_, bglimm (muted), MattPerry, AndyS, AxelPolleres, cbuilara, pgearon, ericP

14:35:22 <LeeF> AndyS: Steve, does your organization have possible use cases for pp if they had been around?

Andy Seaborne: Steve, does your organization have possible use cases for pp if they had been around? [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:35:30 <LeeF> SteveH: it's an assumption - i'm sure we do but don't know what they are

Steve Harris: it's an assumption - i'm sure we do but don't know what they are [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:35:35 <LeeF> AndyS: OK

Andy Seaborne: OK [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:35:52 <LeeF> SteveH: we tend to have wacky use cases anyway

Steve Harris: we tend to have wacky use cases anyway [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:36:07 <ericP> q+ try to factor those who need exhaustive vs. those who need distinct

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ try to factor those who need exhaustive vs. those who need distinct

14:36:11 <LeeF> ack ericP

Lee Feigenbaum: ack ericP

14:37:39 <Zakim> -pgearon

Zakim IRC Bot: -pgearon

14:37:47 <AndyS> EricP: Do they think non-counting is more intuitive?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Do they think non-counting is more intuitive?

14:38:01 <AndyS> LeeF: it looks that way

Lee Feigenbaum: it looks that way

14:38:22 <AndyS> EricP: Who needs what?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Who needs what?

14:38:51 <AndyS> LeeF: It's about performance not wrong results.

Lee Feigenbaum: It's about performance not wrong results.

14:39:09 <AxelPolleres> q+

Axel Polleres: q+

14:39:32 <AndyS> EricP: axel says bnodes mean SELECT DISTINCT may have problems.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: axel says bnodes mean SELECT DISTINCT may have problems.

14:39:44 <AndyS> ack try

ack try

14:39:44 <Zakim> try, you wanted to factor those who need exhaustive vs. those who need distinct

Zakim IRC Bot: try, you wanted to factor those who need exhaustive vs. those who need distinct

14:39:56 <LeeF> ack AxelPolleres

Lee Feigenbaum: ack AxelPolleres

14:39:58 <AndyS> ack axel

ack axel

14:40:17 <AndyS> Axel: { ?s path [] }

Axel Polleres: { ?s path [] }

14:40:56 <ericP> { ?s path [] }

Eric Prud'hommeaux: { ?s path [] }

14:40:58 <AndyS> ... bnodes also generate dups so need careful handling (implicit projection).

... bnodes also generate dups so need careful handling (implicit projection).

14:41:10 <ericP> { ?s path [] } vs. { ?s path ?x }

Eric Prud'hommeaux: { ?s path [] } vs. { ?s path ?x }

14:41:16 <AndyS> ... DISTINCT(path) makes it easier to spot the right algorithm to use.

... DISTINCT(path) makes it easier to spot the right algorithm to use.

14:42:03 <Zakim> + +1.540.841.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.540.841.aacc

14:42:16 <AndyS> q+ to say there is a UC for non-counting

q+ to say there is a UC for non-counting

14:42:33 <AxelPolleres> { ?s path1 [ path2 ... [ ...  ] ] }

Axel Polleres: { ?s path1 [ path2 ... [ ... ] ] }

14:43:04 <ericP> { ?s path [] } -> { ?s path ?x } -> { { SELECT ?s { ?s path ?x } GROUP BY ?x } }

Eric Prud'hommeaux: { ?s path [] } -> { ?s path ?x } -> { { SELECT ?s { ?s path ?x } GROUP BY ?x } }

14:43:10 <AndyS> ... rewrite is hard - need to specially redo as generated named variables that get hidden but at a different point to how bnodes go away

... rewrite is hard - need to specially redo as generated named variables that get hidden but at a different point to how bnodes go away

14:43:20 <LeeF> ack AndyS

Lee Feigenbaum: ack AndyS

14:43:20 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to say there is a UC for non-counting

Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS, you wanted to say there is a UC for non-counting

14:44:00 <AxelPolleres> the common use case for non-counting is "reachability"

Axel Polleres: the common use case for non-counting is "reachability"

14:44:05 <LeeF> AndyS: the use case for non-counting is not that you can't write it the other way is connectivity

Andy Seaborne: the use case for non-counting is not that you can't write it the other way is connectivity [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:44:31 <LeeF> ...you can solve them the other way, but you're asking the query writer to transform a problem that was naturally expressed as reachability into counting and then back again

Lee Feigenbaum: ...you can solve them the other way, but you're asking the query writer to transform a problem that was naturally expressed as reachability into counting and then back again

14:44:37 <LeeF> q?

Lee Feigenbaum: q?

14:46:04 <AndyS> LeeF: strawpoll on all five options -- standard way.  Will write each out - please +1/0/-1(objection possible), only integer values

Lee Feigenbaum: strawpoll on all five options -- standard way. Will write each out - please +1/0/-1(objection possible), only integer values

14:46:23 <LeeF> STRAWPOLL on option 1, leave as-is in 2LC with no change

Lee Feigenbaum: STRAWPOLL on option 1, leave as-is in 2LC with no change

14:46:26 <ericP> +1

Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1

14:46:27 <SteveH> 0

Steve Harris: 0

14:46:29 <bglimm> 0 (concerned about formal objection)

Birte Glimm: 0 (concerned about formal objection)

14:46:30 <MattPerry> 0

Matthew Perry: 0

14:46:30 <cbuilara> 0

Carlos Buil Aranda: 0

14:46:34 <AndyS> 0

0

14:46:35 <Olivier> 0

Olivier Corby: 0

14:46:43 <LeeF> +1

Lee Feigenbaum: +1

14:47:16 <LeeF> pgearon: -1

Paul Gearon: -1 [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:47:36 <ericP> 0

Eric Prud'hommeaux: 0

14:47:56 <ericP> sorry, thouth it was already the next strawpoll

Eric Prud'hommeaux: sorry, thouth it was already the next strawpoll

14:48:02 <LeeF> STRAWPOLL on option 2, include both DISTINCT(full-path) and {+}/{*} operators

Lee Feigenbaum: STRAWPOLL on option 2, include both DISTINCT(full-path) and {+}/{*} operators

14:48:05 <SteveH> -1

Steve Harris: -1

14:48:07 <ericP> 0

Eric Prud'hommeaux: 0

14:48:08 <MattPerry> 0

Matthew Perry: 0

14:48:11 <Olivier> 0

Olivier Corby: 0

14:48:14 <LeeF> 0

Lee Feigenbaum: 0

14:48:16 <cbuilara> 0

Carlos Buil Aranda: 0

14:48:19 <AxelPolleres> 0

Axel Polleres: 0

14:48:19 <AndyS> What about DISTINCT(path component)?

What about DISTINCT(path component)?

14:48:31 <bglimm> 0

Birte Glimm: 0

14:48:53 <AxelPolleres> q+

Axel Polleres: q+

14:49:23 <LeeF> ack AxelPolleres

Lee Feigenbaum: ack AxelPolleres

14:50:10 <AndyS> +1 and pref general DISTINCT(path-component)

+1 and pref general DISTINCT(path-component)

14:50:10 <pgearon> opt 2: +1

Paul Gearon: opt 2: +1

14:50:37 <LeeF> STRAWPOLL on option 3, add DISTINCT(full-path) only

Lee Feigenbaum: STRAWPOLL on option 3, add DISTINCT(full-path) only

14:50:44 <SteveH> +1, but with reservations

Steve Harris: +1, but with reservations

14:50:45 <bglimm> +1

Birte Glimm: +1

14:50:46 <AxelPolleres> +1

Axel Polleres: +1

14:50:49 <MattPerry> +1

Matthew Perry: +1

14:50:49 <Olivier> +1

Olivier Corby: +1

14:50:52 <LeeF> +1

Lee Feigenbaum: +1

14:50:53 <pgearon> +1

Paul Gearon: +1

14:50:54 <ericP> 0

Eric Prud'hommeaux: 0

14:50:56 <cbuilara> +1

Carlos Buil Aranda: +1

14:50:58 <AndyS> 0

0

14:51:27 <ericP> (in +3 months)

Eric Prud'hommeaux: (in +3 months)

14:51:43 <LeeF> STRAWPOLL on option 5, mark property paths as non-normative

Lee Feigenbaum: STRAWPOLL on option 5, mark property paths as non-normative

14:52:11 <ericP> 0

Eric Prud'hommeaux: 0

14:52:15 <pgearon> -1

Paul Gearon: -1

14:52:16 <AxelPolleres> 0

Axel Polleres: 0

14:52:18 <LeeF> STRAWPOLL on option 5, mark our best guess at what property paths should be as non-normative

Lee Feigenbaum: STRAWPOLL on option 5, mark our best guess at what property paths should be as non-normative

14:52:19 <MattPerry> -1

Matthew Perry: -1

14:52:21 <Olivier> 0

Olivier Corby: 0

14:52:22 <LeeF> 0

Lee Feigenbaum: 0

14:52:24 <AndyS> -1

-1

14:52:24 <bglimm> 0

Birte Glimm: 0

14:52:25 <SteveH> +1

Steve Harris: +1

14:52:27 <cbuilara> 0

Carlos Buil Aranda: 0

14:53:00 <AndyS> Best consensus is opt 3.

Best consensus is opt 3.

14:53:01 <ericP> +1 to LeeF's impending proposal on option 3

Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 to LeeF's impending proposal on option 3

14:53:13 <Zakim> -ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: -ericP

14:57:16 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Add a DISTINCT modifier around full property paths to SPARQL 1.1 Query, and add work on counting & non-counting operators or partial paths to the future work list

PROPOSED: Add a DISTINCT modifier around full property paths to SPARQL 1.1 Query, and add work on counting & non-counting operators or partial paths to the future work list

14:57:47 <SteveH> seconded

Steve Harris: seconded

14:57:50 <AndyS> abstain

abstain

14:58:00 <Olivier> +1

Olivier Corby: +1

14:58:00 <pgearon> abstain

Paul Gearon: abstain

14:58:11 <bglimm> +1

Birte Glimm: +1

14:58:22 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Add a DISTINCT modifier around full property paths to SPARQL 1.1 Query, and add work on counting & non-counting operators or partial paths to the future work list

RESOLVED: Add a DISTINCT modifier around full property paths to SPARQL 1.1 Query, and add work on counting & non-counting operators or partial paths to the future work list

14:58:35 <LeeF> ACTION: Lee to add the counting/noncounting operators and distinct partial paths to future work list

ACTION: Lee to add the counting/noncounting operators and distinct partial paths to future work list

14:58:35 <trackbot> Created ACTION-604 - Add the counting/noncounting operators and distinct partial paths to future work list [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2012-03-27].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-604 - Add the counting/noncounting operators and distinct partial paths to future work list [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2012-03-27].

14:59:47 <AndyS> Birte - this affects entailment.  Need to restrict entailment to BGPs without PP?

Birte - this affects entailment. Need to restrict entailment to BGPs without PP?

14:59:48 <Zakim> -LeeF

Zakim IRC Bot: -LeeF

14:59:49 <Zakim> -Olivier_

Zakim IRC Bot: -Olivier_

14:59:53 <Zakim> -MattPerry

Zakim IRC Bot: -MattPerry

14:59:54 <Zakim> -bglimm

Zakim IRC Bot: -bglimm

14:59:54 <Zakim> -SteveH

Zakim IRC Bot: -SteveH

14:59:55 <bglimm> bze

Birte Glimm: bze

14:59:56 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres

Zakim IRC Bot: -AxelPolleres

14:59:58 <Zakim> -cbuilara

Zakim IRC Bot: -cbuilara

15:00:01 <Zakim> - +1.540.841.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.540.841.aacc

15:00:06 <AndyS> adjourned

adjourned

15:00:09 <Zakim> -AndyS

Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS

15:00:10 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended

15:00:10 <Zakim> Attendees were LeeF, SteveH, Olivier_, bglimm, MattPerry, AndyS, AxelPolleres, +1.917.522.aaaa, cbuilara, pgearon, ericP, +1.540.841.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were LeeF, SteveH, Olivier_, bglimm, MattPerry, AndyS, AxelPolleres, +1.917.522.aaaa, cbuilara, pgearon, ericP, +1.540.841.aacc



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This revision (#1) generated 2012-03-20 18:49:50 UTC by 'lfeigenb', comments: None