22:35:04 ack ht 22:35:04 ht, you wanted to mention cocoon, XProc, docman tooling in general 22:35:12 dsinger has joined #html-wg 22:35:17 other examples are

turning into

at the DOM level 22:35:44 HT: there's a community of practice, esp in document management, that switched to all XML ~4 years ago... 22:35:45 MikeSmith, can't you sign HTML documents exactly like you'd sign any arbitrary stream of bytes? 22:35:52 and

becoming

at the DOM level, etc. 22:35:54 ... e.g. spec-prod [?] 22:36:00 gsnedders has joined #html-wg 22:36:00 webspinner has joined #html-wg 22:36:15 HT: we don't use a special serializer; we've just learned to be careful 22:36:24 ack kai 22:36:24 Kai, you wanted to ask, naively, what this would mean for our XHTML pages, served as text/html, our hundreds of partner companies and basically the whole structure of an XHTML 22:36:26 Hixie: wouldn't it be better for the tools to do that? 22:36:27 ... based world of portals 22:36:28 q+ to mention tidy and to protest against a doubling the toolsets 22:36:31 HT: I don't think so 22:36:38 [ETOOFAST] 22:36:52 silvia has joined #html-wg 22:37:00 s/think so/think so, in particular because we want to continue to process the output with generic XML tools/ 22:37:02 Kai: all we have is XHTML that we serve as text/html 22:37:23 ack danc 22:37:27 Kai: all we [who?] have is text/html... could someone explain the issue at a high level? 22:37:31 ack me 22:37:38 q+ 22:37:43 q+ 22:38:06 s/[who?]/at Deutsche Telekom/ 22:38:33 there is http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/HTML_vs._XHTML 22:38:34 Title: HTML vs. XHTML - WHATWG Wiki (at wiki.whatwg.org) 22:38:38 q+ 22:38:53 q+ to answer DanC's question 22:38:53 mostly written by people outside the polyglot community, but it should be accurate 22:39:02 DanC, ^^ 22:39:06 DanC: any volunteers, among in the community of people who want to write polyglot documents, who volunteer to write a document describing how to do this correctly? 22:39:36 karl, URL for your draft about polyglot documents? 22:39:51 Maciej: definition of the sliver matters 22:39:51 q? 22:39:57 q- 22:39:58 Maciej: it's not enough to just match both syntaxes; you have to avoid things that cause unexpected results... 22:40:02 some just say conforming to both syntaxes 22:40:13 others also want same tree (e.g no implied tags) 22:40:13 DanC, my HTML5 Reference also covers writing polyglot documents. There's a whole section devoted to it. 22:40:35 ... so one challenge to [writing this up] is explaining the motivation for it [?] 22:40:42 oh. I guess I forgot that, Lachy 22:40:45 q- 22:40:50 q+ timbl_ to talk about defining (a) a polyglot set of constrains and (b) the properties they have 22:40:50 Zakim, close the queue 22:40:52 ok, DanC, the speaker queue is closed 22:41:14 ack Mike 22:41:14 MikeSmith, you wanted to note that the case of drop-in HTML5 parsers in XML toolchains doesn't work for documents that need to be signed (because we have an XML document signing 22:41:18 ... mechanism but not an HTML document signing mechanism) 22:41:20 ack tvr 22:41:21 (Pure polyglot fails with the first tag by the way. ends up differently in the DOM.) 22:41:27 MikeSmith: if you're using signed documents, you're not going to be able to [missed; help, Mike?] 22:41:38 Without going on the queue, can someone confirm that e.g.
Hello world is not legitimately servable as text/html ? 22:41:43 http://www.la-grange.net/2009/07/05/html5-xhtml5/ <- HTML 5 and XHTML 5 - one vocabulary, two serializations 22:41:44 Title: HTML 5 and XHTML 5 - one vocabulary, two serializations (at www.la-grange.net) 22:42:23 ack timbl 22:42:23 timbl, you wanted to mention tidy and to protest against a doubling the toolsets 22:42:26 MikeSmith, you have been quicker than me 22:42:27 ht, yes,
Hellow world
would be needed 22:42:29 TVR: years ago when work on XHTML started, there was an expectation of smooth evolution toward cleaner markup; we can engineer HTML 5 to make it grow or shrink 22:42:35 q? 22:42:36 q? 22:42:37 masinter has joined #html-wg 22:42:44 ht, you need a DOCTYPE and the title element is also still required 22:42:45 Thanks anne, that's fine 22:42:46 Hixie: we're trying to make it grow; with HTML 4, it was empty. HTML 5 makes it significantly larger 22:42:58 s/[missed; help, Mike?]/process them with HTML5 parser frontend on an XML toolchain 22:43:15 TimBL: I use tidy to make XML... making an empty
or
isn't something I do as a matter of course... 22:43:33 I was just checking that expected error recovery "doesn't count" as far as legitimate use of the media types is concerned 22:43:34 Larry has arrived 22:43:37 q+ 22:43:39 ... and the insertion of
between
and doesn't bother me because I'm not doing scripting/xpaths. 22:44:04 ... so for lots of ordinary documents, it [polydocument document] is fine 22:44:37 TimBL: some shops have all sorts of content management with XML doing lots of things, one of which is the web site. 22:45:03 ack rubys 22:45:27 ... so I wouldn't want them to have to double their toolset [i.e. adding HTML 5 parsers] just to parse, e.g. HTML descriptions of people in HR systems 22:45:39 http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/infrastructure.html#extensibility => http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/11/05/Web3D 22:45:40 Title: 2 Common infrastructure HTML 5 (at www.w3.org) 22:46:05 ack timbl 22:46:05 timbl_, you wanted to talk about defining (a) a polyglot set of constrains and (b) the properties they have 22:46:12 q+ 22:46:28 SR: with years of practice in this space, it's [remarkably difficult] and the tools I develop show that people [mess it up in an amazing variety of ways] 22:46:35 Title: XHTML 1.0: The Extensible HyperText Markup Language (Second Edition) (at www.w3.org) 22:47:49 PaulC: the point about staying neutral makes sense, as does the request for somebody to write up how to write polyglot documents 22:47:56 http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/ 22:47:57 Title: HTML 5 Reference (at dev.w3.org) 22:48:08 Lachlan: a draft I'm working on has a section on how to write polyglot documents 22:48:19 Laura has joined #html-wg 22:49:04 Topic: text/html media type registration and IETF compatibility guidelines 22:49:04 it's related to http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/53 22:49:05 Title: ISSUE-53 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org) 22:49:09 q+ 22:49:15 note that karl's document uses the term "versatile documents" instead of "polyglot documents" 22:49:15 Zakim, open the queue 22:49:15 ok, DanC, the speaker queue is open 22:49:20 q+ 22:49:24 These documents are also useful for understanding polyglot documents http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/HTML_vs._XHTML http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Validator.nu_Useful_Warning_Requests#Polyglot_Document_Checking 22:49:24 +1 "versatile" 22:49:26 Title: HTML vs. XHTML - WHATWG Wiki (at wiki.whatwg.org) 22:49:39 PaulC: where are we on this? 22:49:50 SR: lots of discussion; little in the way of concrete proposals 22:49:52 bugmail: [Bug 8209] New: The term "XML document" needs xreffing throughout. <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0054.html> 4** [Bug 8208] New: The data-* attributes need to be clearer about their applicability to JS libraries, and in particular should have some suggestions about using unambiguous attribute names like data-dojo-range or data-jq-selector or whatever. <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzil 22:50:38 http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2854 22:50:41 FWIW, my comment was that "XML document" was an example of what may be many terms that would benefit from hyperlinks leading to definitions or clarifications. 22:50:47 Mainter: [missed some]... IETF media type guidelines prohibit changing a media type registration so as to invalidate content that was previously valid 22:50:53 s/Mainter/Masinter/ 22:51:21 s/on this/on the text.html media type registration/ 22:51:25 specifically: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4288#section-9 22:51:26 Title: RFC 4288 - Media Type Specifications and Registration Procedures (at tools.ietf.org) 22:51:46 "When review is required, a change request may be denied if it renders entities that were valid under the previous definition invalid under the new definition" 22:51:47 LMM: When Dan C. and I worked on the text/html media type RFC, we noted practice such as writing to specific implementations, with plugins, etc. .... 22:52:00 ... that seems valuable text to keep 22:52:27 LMM: [something about which version of HTML features were introduced in.] This history is useful. 22:52:55 q+ 22:53:08 q+ 22:53:20 q- 22:53:44 LMM: updating a media type registration requires going thru the same process that created the original. [scribe is losing the thread] 22:53:45 q+ to point to section 1.4 22:54:24 q- 22:54:32 LMM: a document that says "there were these versions of HTML; now there's a new one: HTML 5" 22:54:36 ... would be good. 22:55:08 Paul: I hear you saying (a) there's historical material in the text/html media type spec that shouldn't be removed 22:55:14 [scribe missed (b)] 22:55:44 annevk: "When review is required, a change request may be denied if it renders entities that were valid under the previous definition invalid under the new definition" -- RFC 4288 22:56:32 LMM: it's not only that old valid content should stay valid, but that old specifications as a whole are still relevant. 22:56:48 q? 22:56:54 q- 22:57:36 PaulC: so your suggestion is...? 22:57:52 ack 22:57:55 Zakim: ack 22:57:58 lets play HTML5 the movie 22:58:00 LMM: I asked that the media type registration be taken out and handled [later? after PR?] 22:58:08 ack Hixie 22:58:08 Hixie, you wanted to point to section 1.4 22:58:30 Hixie: I think section 1.4 of the current HTML 5 spec subsumes the history from the registration 22:59:22 Title: YouTube - HTML5 trailer - Find your Hero (at www.youtube.com) 22:59:33 TimBL: as Director, I point out that mime type registration should be *inside* the spec, not separate, to prevent inconsistencies. 22:59:40 PaulC: noted. 23:00:08 Topic: Embedding data in HTML Documents 23:00:09 It seems to me that Larry is asking for the MIME-type registration information to include the history of the previous specs. I think that also the spec says that it reckons to be back-compatibl anyway to a large extent. It seems reasonable to put the history in an appendix. 23:00:47 TimBl, the spec does not define things that were valid before, for instance @profile 23:01:07 NM paraphrases "General concern with inclusion of data capabilities ..." from http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2009/11/TAGHTMLTopicsList.html 23:01:08 Title: Discussion Topics for HTML / TAG working group meeting at TPAC 2009 (at www.w3.org) 23:02:10 for reference: 23:02:13 issue-53? 23:02:13 ISSUE-53 -- Need to update media type registrations -- RAISED 23:02:13 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/53 23:02:14 Title: ISSUE-53 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org) 23:02:41 Lachlan: use case for data-* : it's for data in a document for use by scripts. 23:02:49 q+ 23:02:57 NM: does it come in the source? or is it synthesized by scripts? 23:03:05 LH: both... [complicated?] 23:03:14 ack mjs 23:03:38 NM: to what extent do RDFa and data-* overlap? 23:03:48 q+ to talk about [data-value], not cross-site 23:03:50 timbl+ to mention name/clash/space issues from the TP debate 23:03:55 MJS: they do overlap somewhat, as well as microformats... 23:04:06 q+ timbl to mention name/clash/space issues from the TP debate 23:04:24 ... all these mechanisms provide data for consumption by 3rd parties... 23:04:24 mduran has joined #html-wg 23:04:56 [script got the above wrong, evidently...] 23:05:00 q- 23:05:07 MJS: the use case for data-* is for private-use data... 23:05:34 ... we found that script libraries made up invalid attributes to store data in... 23:05:44 ... so data-* is a way to make that usage conforming. 23:06:10 MJS: but could someone use this to publish data? well, sure, but that's not the intent.
can be abused too, of course. 23:06:19 ack timbl 23:06:19 timbl, you wanted to mention name/clash/space issues from the TP debate 23:06:40 TBL: so let's take FBML as an example... with ... 23:07:11 ... that's extending the language... it's part of the meaning of the page. 23:07:20 q+ 23:07:29 ... they're using script libraries to invent new elements [?] 23:08:25 ... it's private in the sense that it's not specified by the HTML spec, but from the point of view of someone using the extended language, they're [ETOOFARBEHIND] 23:08:28 q+ 23:08:31 q+ to mention practical experience of microformats FAQ re: use of data-* attributes. 23:08:32 q- 23:08:39 ack Lachy 23:08:46 Hixie: that would be abuse of data-*; other mechanisms serve that use case significantly better 23:09:21 it seems likely that a not-insignificant number of authors will in fact misuse the data-* attributes; at least it seems more likely that authors will misuse data-* attributes than that they will restyle a
element to become a list item [Maciej's example] 23:09:35 ack tantek 23:09:35 tantek, you wanted to mention practical experience of microformats FAQ re: use of data-* attributes. 23:09:47 Lachy, I missed what you said; help? 23:10:11 If we move on from this question, I think it's useful to agree on whether we have a direction that's likely to lead to consensus. Right now, I 23:10:18 I'm afraid I'm not hearing it. 23:10:28 tantek: after a small amount of initial confusion, the microformats community has learned not to misuse data-* 23:10:41 I hear Hixie et. al. saying "not to be used this way". Tim saying it will. 23:10:45 I said the difference between data-* and microdata/RDFa/microformats is that the latter provides shared vocabularies with shared semantics, whereas data-* attributes are completely private with no shared semantics 23:11:05 tx 23:11:41 Paul: so I hear "what are the plans for factoring microdata?" 23:12:01 MJS: we have a tracker issue and a change proposal to take it out; next step is a change proposal to keep it in 23:12:11 issue-76? 23:12:11 ISSUE-76 -- Concerns about Microdata section and inclusion/exclusion of RDFa -- OPEN 23:12:11 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/76 23:12:12 Title: ISSUE-76 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org) 23:13:13 NM: to TAG members, would it suffice to split out the microdata spec? 23:13:26 PC: could you give some argument/rationale for splitting it out? 23:13:33 TimBL: modularity... 23:13:47 ... it'll be easier for people to read the smaller bits 23:13:50 q+ 23:14:01 ack 23:14:07 ack Julian 23:14:25 Julian: a split out spec could still be normatively referenced... 23:14:38 MJS: noone is advocating that 23:14:41 q+ 23:14:41 23:14:52 q- 23:15:03 q+ 23:16:02 q- 23:16:32 moving on to the URI/IRI/WebAddr item 23:16:33 NM: how about data-*... does the same argument re factoring out apply? 23:16:51 [lack of response...] 23:16:54 DanC: I don't think so 23:17:01 Topic: URI/IRI/WebAddr 23:17:25 NM: I note LMM's change proposal, acknowledged in the HTML WG bug tracker 23:18:30 LMM: the technical issue I'm persuing is: does what browsers use for URLs match what other applications use? ... 23:18:56 ... if they don't match, [something about normative references; help?] 23:19:05 PC: is the intent in HTML 5 that they match? 23:19:22 Hixie: [carefully worded answer; help?] they're designed to be a superset. [?] 23:20:05 PC: [some question that prompted LMM to answer...] 23:20:28 LMM: I think I answered that in my msg [www-tag/2009Nov/0005] ... 23:20:56 ... we're trying to set up some confidence about the future; if we charter an IETF WG to meet some requirements, [ETOOFAST] 23:21:13 q+ to suggest that we meet at least until 3:45, given that a number of use showed up about 15 minutes late 23:21:17 ... I'd like to treat those [design differences between HTML 5 and IRIBIS?] as bugs... 23:21:32 LMM: you can't deadlock one behind the other [?] 23:22:45 TimBL had to leave 23:22:52 IH: HTML5's definition of URL was intended to be a superset of IRI, and its definition of "valud URL" was intended to be exactly equivalent to the definition of IRI where their processing would be equivalent 23:23:23 "To what extent is Web Address being moved into IRI-bis?" 23:23:26 PC: it's in progress 23:23:43 "is the timeline for IRI work consistent with the timeline for HTML 5?" 23:24:34 MJS: eventually, yes, IRIBIS has to be done before HTML5 goes to REC... 23:25:00 ... but we can make a lot of orthogonal progress on HTML 5 before then. 23:25:18 "Are there pieces that need to stay in HTML 5?" 23:25:34 [what I heard was: we hope not.] 23:25:50 PC: we'll find out 23:26:04 IH: yes, we'll figure out the boundary at some time. 23:26:20 LMM: I'm happy for the HTML WG issue to be closed and the remainder to be handled as bugs 23:26:28 timbl has joined #html-wg 23:27:21 scribe mjs 23:27:26 Scribe: mjs 23:27:45 ScribeNick: mjs 23:28:00 Topic: Language Reference / Authoring Spec 23:28:15 q+ to swap Lachlan's document back in 23:28:21 q- 23:28:29 NM: I think having a good spec to a language is important 23:28:53 NM: the authoring spec is better than my worst fears 23:29:13 NM: not sure this is the best we could do, compared to something handwritten 23:29:39 NM: will this be a major deliverable with close review? 23:29:52 IH: first - there are two other documents we have being developed 23:30:04 IH: Lachlan's informative author's reference 23:30:11 my draft is at http://dev.w3.org/html5/markup/ 23:30:12 Title: HTML 5: The Markup Language (at dev.w3.org) 23:30:18 IH: Mike's markup spec draft 23:30:19 http://dev.w3.org/html5/markup/ 23:30:25 http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/ 23:30:26 Title: HTML 5 Reference (at dev.w3.org) 23:30:38 Hixie's authoring version: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/?style=author 23:30:40 Title: HTML5 (at www.whatwg.org) 23:30:45 IH: as far as my document - I haven't done as much quality assurance on the authoring annotations 23:30:50 DanC - the authoring specs have been very useful to those not familiar with reading typical W3C spec-ese. 23:31:00 (in my experience in talking/working with web designers) 23:31:06 IH: there has been some (Philip and I have both spotted errors) 23:31:30 tantek, have you looked at the authoring view that hixie has come up with? 23:31:44 NM: what I'm hearing is that you are treating this deliverable seriously, whether or not it meets my taste 23:31:47 do you know if others in the design community like it? 23:31:59 BTW re: data-* attributes and microformats community understanding - here is the URL we send folks that seems to convince them to avoid data-* for data interchange: http://microformats.org/wiki/html5#data_attributes 23:32:01 Title: html5 � Microformats Wiki (at microformats.org) 23:32:05 IH: one of the things I'm not sure of is who the target audience is 23:32:17 Zakim, status 23:32:17 I don't understand 'status', tantek 23:32:36 IH: I don't know of people who would are at high enough level to understand the spec, but aren't familiar with browsers 23:32:48 BryanSullivan has joined #html-wg 23:32:53 ack Hixie 23:33:22 a static view of the author view of the spec is at http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec-author-view/ 23:33:23 Title: HTML5 (at dev.w3.org) 23:33:35 NM: one thing I noticed is many UA requirements are imperative, are there a lot of cases where that remains in the author view, or is it more declarative? 23:33:40 I haven't updated that for a while, MikeSmith ; have you? 23:33:44 IH: fixed some cases of that, continuing to improve it 23:33:52 NM: thanks for the status report. let's open this up 23:33:58 DanC: it's automatically updated each time Hixie commits a change 23:34:31 HT: Henry was concerned that you couldn't create a good authoring spec from the current spec without adding more material 23:34:39 ok; thanks, Mike 23:34:39 s/HT/PC/ 23:34:46 adactio has joined #html-wg 23:34:52 PC: It sounds like you *have* added some material in the process, and are willing to add more 23:34:52 s/DanC:/DanC, 23:35:17 PC: it sounds like we should feed that back to Henry and ask him to state what's missing 23:35:45 kohei has joined #html-wg 23:36:04 q+ duplicate normative; reason for two types of content 23:36:10 q+ to say duplicate normative; reason for two types of content 23:36:16 DC: are you closer to done on the authoring guide? 23:36:18 ack DanC 23:36:18 DanC, you wanted to swap Lachlan's document back in 23:36:26 LH: there's lots of stuff, but much more is needed 23:36:31 weinig has joined #html-wg 23:36:49 q+ 23:37:11 PC: I've had many people approach me saying they could use a spec like this for software that generates HTML, and is not a browser 23:37:25 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 23:37:35 NM: maybe more BNF 23:37:55 IH: there is more BNF. I think this audience is somewhat different than what I have been targeting 23:37:59 should we change the media types slot now it has already been dealt with here? 23:38:09 q+ about writing API calls vs. implementing API calls 23:38:18 IH: on second thought, maybe emitting HTML does 23:38:23 q+ to ask about about writing API calls vs. implementing API calls 23:38:28 ack Hixie 23:38:28 Hixie, you wanted to say duplicate normative; reason for two types of content 23:38:29 IH: but to validate you need parts of both 23:38:34 ack hixie 23:38:46 annevk, perhaps we should - not sure there is more to discuss about it 23:38:49 q+ to respond 23:39:26 IH: I don't think that we as a working group should publish two documents that both claim to be normative for the same thing 23:39:28 ack bryan 23:39:40 (I disagree with Hixie on the "multiple normative documents" issue. I've done it successfully in OWL, SPARQL, and GRDDL) 23:39:57 BS: we view it very favorably, our product plans for HTML5 will benefit 23:40:10 q- 23:40:27 (but those were quite orthogonal; i.e. spec and test-suite-document) 23:40:55 LM: one thing that's important for creators of documents that use scripting is the programmer view of the API as opposed to the implementor view 23:40:56 BryanSullivan: radio buttons are at the top right of http://whatwg.org/html5 23:40:59 Title: HTML5 (at whatwg.org) 23:41:04 LM: example: image width 23:41:14 adactio has joined #html-wg 23:41:33 what was the "it" that Bryan was referring to? 23:41:39 LM: explained implementation details, was not so clear for someone trying to use the API rather than implement it 23:42:08 silvia, maybe you should make it another video slot :) 23:42:16 DanC, he didn't exactly specify but I assume BryanSullivan was referring to the authoring-focused specs 23:42:29 Correct 23:42:29 hm 23:42:44 But the guidance is appreciated 23:43:18 the TAG isn't of one mind on this. 23:43:22 non-normative is fine for me. 23:43:28 (having said that, it seems like I'll attend the bit on caching) 23:43:29 MS: I want to propose an action for the TAG: would it be acceptable to produce a language reference as a non-normative document? 23:44:15 NM: to ask for clarification, which document do you mean? 23:44:35 MS: I mean if there's a document that is not a view in the spec, just a definition of a conforming document 23:44:48 NM: I will put any proposal before the TAG that you can describe 23:45:04 I think of Mike's document as "a schema-based description of HTML 5" and I'd be happy to see it published non-normatively. 23:45:27 MS: specifically I mean my H:TML document, aimed at producers only 23:46:21 NM: for me personally, that's ok, and I'm willing to put that before the TAG 23:46:47 If the difference between these two documents is so subtle, it probably is not such a good idea. If it can be made clear what the diff is, then yes. 23:47:08 SR: would be useful to have the input because then we can decouple and execute 23:47:37 I'm all for MikeSmith's document being published non-normatively. Mike, have you changed your mind since http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20081118#l-207 ? 23:47:43 Title: IRC logs: w3c / #html-wg / 20081118 (at krijnhoetmer.nl) 23:48:05 hober: I change my mind all the time 23:48:15 :) 23:48:19 s/hober: /hober, 23:48:24 adjourned 23:51:00 Lachy has joined #html-wg 23:57:45 gurra has joined #html-wg 23:58:22 gurra has left #html-wg 00:00:40 weinig has joined #html-wg 00:03:59 Arron has joined #html-wg 00:04:08 shiki has joined #html-wg 00:05:08 Laura has joined #html-wg 00:05:35 MichaelC has joined #html-wg 00:07:23 noahm has joined #html-wg 00:08:04 Kai has joined #html-wg 00:10:39 Topic: Caching 00:10:44 scribe: MikeSmith 00:10:54 tantek has joined #html-wg 00:11:11 silvia has joined #html-wg 00:11:19 URL for Nikunj's slides? 00:12:00 http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/param/master/Invisible_Pink_Unicorn.svg?color=deeppink 00:12:02 Title: Invisible Pink Unicorn (at dev.w3.org) 00:12:10 Nikunj walks us through his slides 00:12:11 sylvaing has joined #html-wg 00:12:17 cyns has joined #html-wg 00:12:28 q+ 00:12:29 slide - Desired Offline Data Features 00:12:45 q? 00:12:53 ack masinter 00:12:53 masinter, you wanted to ask about about writing API calls vs. implementing API calls 00:12:56 ask MikeSmith 00:13:05 BryanSullivan: is the datacache on the device? 00:13:12 Nikunj: yes 00:13:18 q- 00:13:27 tlr: could just be the HTTP cache on the UA? 00:13:46 s/tlr/jr/ 00:13:59 q+ 00:14:09 Nikunj: the key part is that the cache can be controlled programatically 00:14:16 ack MikeSmith 00:14:16 MikeSmith, you wanted to respond 00:14:18 ack BryanSullivan 00:14:23 q- 00:14:31 BryanSullivan: so you want to make it transparent as possible? 00:14:53 Nikunj: Yes, to make it seamless 00:15:21 Lachy: how's that different from normal HTTP cache or offline-apps ApplicationCache mechanism? 00:15:39 MikeSmith, huh? 00:16:05 MikeSmith, I didn't say that 00:16:14 Lachy: feel free to fix it 00:16:19 I don't know who said it 00:16:41 s/Lachy: /???: / 00:16:47 s/Lachy: how/??: how/ 00:17:15 Kai has joined #html-wg 00:17:18 dbaron has joined #html-wg 00:17:43 NM: [discusses use case of off-line photo album] 00:17:57 NM: efficiency of updates is a concern 00:18:11 jun has joined #html-wg 00:18:28 NM: [explains HTML5 ApplicationCache] 00:18:39 q? 00:18:40 mnot has joined #html-wg 00:18:57 BryanSullivan: is the datacache going to act like a local server? 00:19:15 ... or not really 00:19:49 BryanSullivan: so you want controlled cache lifetime 00:19:53 ... application control 00:20:17 bugmail: [Bug 8210] New: Add drawFocusRing(x,y,w,h,element) which, if element is focused, draws a system focus ring at x,y,w,h. <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0055.html> 00:20:53 cardona507: is there a spec'ed limit on the size of an HTML5 application cache? 00:21:20 Hixie: no, [because the practical limit is device-dependent] 00:21:42 NM: [discusses off-line attachments use case] 00:22:51 NM: [discusses use case of offline data format conversion] 00:23:04 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 00:25:09 NM: [use case of blog client] 00:25:23 regarding the Off-line data format conversaion use case of converting to iCal - I know a few things about that ;) 00:26:02 e.g. http://h2vx.com/ics/ will convert pages with hCalendar to iCal format so that the events can be added to a native calendar application. 00:26:03 Title: H2VX: hCalendar to iCalendar (at h2vx.com) 00:26:33 q+ 00:26:50 also, in Firefox, it has already parsed the hCalendars on the page, so you could have a javascript: hyperlink extract that information from the DOM and redirect to a data: URL of type text/calendar with the iCal data inline. 00:27:00 (I think the name of the proposal is wrong. It's not a cache, it's data replication.) 00:27:39 it would be a proxy that allows offline work 00:27:44 Bert, I think cache is correct because he is implying ephemeral expectation of data availability, rather than reliable replication 00:28:23 BryanSullivan: so you are saying, "I am programatically queuing up data that will be sent to the server once you get back online?" 00:28:53 q- 00:29:34 Julian: I have a problem understanding how that will work in practice [for particular cases] 00:29:40 q+ to mention that Firefox + Operator solves the offline iCal format generation problem. 00:30:18 NM: what URI gets minted is up to the application 00:30:59 NM: [use case of co-existence and error recovery] 00:31:43 NM: you want the user to be alerted _before_ the sync cycle is complete 00:33:00 NM: reporting errors earlier reduces the problems with recovery 00:34:16 tlr has joined #html-wg 00:35:06 NM: [discussing offline authorization use case] 00:36:48 NM: DataCache API spec is in FPWD in WebApps WG 00:37:18 http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/DataCache/ 00:37:19 Title: DataCache API (at dev.w3.org) 00:37:30 q+ 00:37:39 ack tantek 00:37:39 tantek, you wanted to mention that Firefox + Operator solves the offline iCal format generation problem. 00:38:03 tantek: in practice this is one in a couple different ways 00:38:26 ... client-side plugin is one -- like Firefox Operator extension 00:38:38 ... other way is to do is on the server side 00:40:40 tantek: so how is this proposal better than existing mechanisms [that already address these use cases] 00:43:11 NM: effectively you can think of it as a portable local server that can respond to network requests 00:43:25 tantek: so it's like Opera Unite? 00:43:41 gavin has joined #html-wg 00:45:11 annevk: this is in the context of the Web application, whereas Opera Unite is a user-controlled mechanism 00:47:34 NM: it is possible to bypass the datacache, by the user.. and possible to bypass by XHR 00:47:40 ack Hixie 00:47:50 Hixie: I agree with all the use cases 00:48:12 ... and Google has many more use cases [for client-side caching] 00:48:52 Hixie: I think it fits pretty well with ApplicationCache, but I think it's too early to consider adding this [DataCache] to the platform 00:50:04 i/it is possible/cardona507: [asked if there was a similar network and fallback mechanism similar to appcache: NM responded, Not currently] 00:50:34 mjs: I agree with Hixie that we should be careful about how to stage the addition of new features 00:50:46 ... AppCache has been shipping for more than a year 00:50:53 ... people are building businesses around it 00:51:12 ... and building serious stuff on top of it 00:51:39 mjs: I would like to see two solid implementations of AppCache that we can demonstrate are interoperable 00:52:26 ... then look at the pain points that developers who are using AppCache have run into [and consider adding additional features to address those] 00:52:41 Yves has joined #html-wg 00:53:06 annevk: [discusses a case of how to handle a page with an image that gets removed from the cache] 00:53:37 Hixie: yeah, it's not yet bug-free.. which is why I worry about [putting new features into it now] 00:54:49 Hixie: [points out that existence of a draft spec can sometimes cause features to get implemented prematurely] 00:55:40 mjs: some features are of the kind where implementing the first 80% is pretty straightforward to implement, but last 20% is much more problematic 00:56:14 RRSAgent, make minutes 00:56:14 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith 00:56:17 Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 05 Nov 2009 (at www.w3.org) 00:58:36 [Nikunj completes his presentation ] 01:06:43 Arron has joined #html-wg 01:09:03 cardona507 has joined #html-wg 01:09:04 mjs has joined #html-wg 01:09:12 weinig has joined #html-wg 01:09:35 Eliot_Graff has joined #html-wg 01:14:44 Kai has joined #html-wg 01:20:32 bugmail: [Bug 8211] New: HTML 4 defined these as entities &name; where the ";" wasn't part of the entity name, and there wasn't a variation that some names don't have ";". If this is an example of error recovery, valid HTML should require the ;. <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0056.html> 01:24:06 Kai_ has joined #html-wg 01:26:49 wendy has joined #html-wg 01:27:02 MichaelC has joined #html-wg 01:30:16 Kai has joined #html-wg 01:30:35 shiki has joined #html-wg 01:31:52 tantek has joined #html-wg 01:32:14 dsinger has joined #html-wg 01:32:45 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 01:37:57 RRSAgent, make minutes 01:37:57 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith 01:37:58 Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 05 Nov 2009 (at www.w3.org) 01:39:04 adactio has left #html-wg 01:47:35 silvia has joined #html-wg 01:50:39 bugmail: [Bug 8212] New: gggfgfgfgfgfgfg <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0059.html> 4** [Bug 8210] Add drawFocusRing(x,y,w,h,element) which, if element is focused, draws a system focus ring at x,y,w,h. <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0058.html> 4** [Bug 8211] HTML 4 defined these as entities &name; where the ";" wasn't part of the entity name, and there wasn't a variation that s 01:58:03 jeanne has left #html-wg 02:01:20 Yves has left #html-wg 02:08:06 Bert has left #html-wg 02:20:02 noahm has joined #html-wg 02:24:30 Julian has joined #html-wg 02:33:35 Arron has joined #html-wg 02:48:43 timbl has joined #html-wg 03:21:29 Zakim has left #html-wg 03:49:25 dsinger has joined #html-wg 04:34:10 Arron has joined #html-wg 04:40:29 weinig has joined #html-wg 05:24:10 silvia has joined #html-wg 05:29:48 Arron has joined #html-wg 05:42:28 mjs has joined #html-wg 06:00:20 noahm has joined #html-wg 06:04:35 weinig has joined #html-wg 06:07:23 cardona507 has joined #html-wg 06:11:24 jun has joined #html-wg 06:17:25 Kangchan has joined #html-wg 06:26:42 Kangchan has left #html-wg 06:26:54 cardona507 has joined #html-wg 06:37:07 cardona507 has joined #html-wg 07:02:14 wonsuk has joined #html-wg 07:07:34 was it pointed out to the TAG that "XML document" in HTML5 means a tree while in XML 1.0 it means a stream? 07:12:34 DanC has joined #html-wg 07:44:28 hsivonen: their complaint was that the term "XML document" was not linked to a definition, so I'm not sure citing different definitions would have helped 07:46:33 Arron has joined #html-wg 07:48:11 tantek has joined #html-wg 09:28:19 mduran has joined #html-wg 09:38:14 Arron has joined #html-wg 09:38:40 wonsuk has joined #html-wg 10:02:17 ROBOd has joined #html-wg 10:22:57 xover has joined #html-wg 10:24:23 Arron has joined #html-wg 10:27:34 xover has joined #html-wg 10:49:28 mjs has joined #html-wg 11:53:07 bugmail: [Bug 8212] gggfgfgfgfgfgfg <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0063.html> 4** [Bug 8216] New: editorial: Hide "The name must be one that is terminated by a U+003B SEMICOLON character (;)." and relevant rows in the entity table from the author view. [sp] <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0062.html> 4** [Bug 8211] HTML 4 defined these as entities &name; where the ";" wasn't par 12:19:04 gsnedders has joined #html-wg 12:48:50 myakura has joined #html-wg 12:48:54 webspinner has joined #html-wg 12:53:00 Laura has joined #html-wg 13:01:15 Arron has joined #html-wg 13:55:21 myakura has joined #html-wg 15:04:12 deltab has joined #html-wg 15:20:28 mjs has joined #html-wg 15:23:58 bugmail: [Bug 8218] New: No, this algorithm cannot be aborted, as there are no synchronous events from which to call load() <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0064.html> 15:24:45 weinig has joined #html-wg 16:01:41 Julian has joined #html-wg 16:21:06 MichaelC has joined #html-wg 16:21:40 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 16:27:25 myakura has joined #html-wg 16:27:51 cardona507 has joined #html-wg 16:28:55 http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Apvkq1IRZaQVdEFieXBXVHVkVWZaWlFNVDJpU1I2eGc 16:28:56 Title: Welcome to Google Docs (at spreadsheets.google.com) 16:29:02 thanks! 16:35:47 eric_carlson_ has joined #html-wg 16:36:43 timeless_mbp has joined #html-wg 16:36:58 jallan has joined #html-wg 16:38:59 kohei has joined #html-wg 16:39:30 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 16:40:15 myakura has joined #html-wg 16:40:33 tlr has joined #html-wg 16:44:10 adrianba has joined #html-wg 16:46:38 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 16:49:04 mth has joined #html-wg 16:50:45 MikeSmith has joined #html-wg 16:51:08 shepazu has joined #html-wg 16:51:39 does anybody recall who proposed the RDFa and Microdata session? 16:51:54 we need somebody to chair the session 16:55:08 annevk has joined #html-wg 16:59:46 brutzman has joined #html-wg 17:00:23 X3D slides (in wiki form) available at http://www.web3d.org/x3d/wiki/index.php/X3D_and_HTML5_Summary 17:00:25 Title: X3D and HTML5 Summary - Web3D.org (at www.web3d.org) 17:01:12 sylvaing has joined #html-wg 17:02:53 soonho has joined #html-wg 17:03:15 rubys has joined #html-wg 17:03:38 silvia has joined #html-wg 17:04:10 paulc has joined #html-wg 17:04:30 Julian has joined #html-wg 17:05:45 good morning everyone 17:05:50 X3D slides (in wiki form) available at http://www.web3d.org/x3d/wiki/index.php/X3D_and_HTML5_Summary 17:05:53 Title: X3D and HTML5 Summary - Web3D.org (at www.web3d.org) 17:06:15 satoshi has joined #html-wg 17:06:19 tantek has joined #html-wg 17:06:20 PIon has joined #html-wg 17:08:08 dsinger has joined #html-wg 17:08:28 Kai has joined #html-wg 17:09:01 Handing out Web3D DVDs 17:09:52 mjs has joined #html-wg 17:10:00 Eliot_Graff has joined #html-wg 17:10:05 plh has joined #html-wg 17:11:34 DanC has joined #html-wg 17:13:07 chaals has joined #html-wg 17:16:14 mnot has joined #html-wg 17:16:36 mnot has left #html-wg 17:16:41 timbl has joined #html-wg 17:20:45 +1 to mjs 17:21:08 weinig has joined #html-wg 17:21:28 Kai, we're using #html-wg2 ;-) 17:22:17 noahm has joined #html-wg 17:24:29 bugmail: [Bug 8210] Add drawFocusRing(x,y,w,h,element) which, if element is focused, draws a system focus ring at x,y,w,h. <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0065.html> 17:26:30 Arron has joined #html-wg 17:35:48 timeless_mbp has joined #html-wg 17:49:58 mjs has joined #html-wg 17:50:57 JonathanJ has joined #html-wg 17:52:57 mjs has joined #html-wg 17:55:13 rrsagent, draft minutes 17:55:13 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg-minutes.html JonathanJ 17:55:14 Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 05 Nov 2009 (at www.w3.org) 17:58:41 drunknbass_work has joined #html-wg 17:59:14 ACTION: Kai to document use cases *ON A WEB PAGE*, or you talk to Ivan and request that he document the use cases on a web page 17:59:14 Sorry, couldn't find user - Kai 17:59:55 shiki has joined #html-wg 18:01:08 http://www.web3d.org/x3d/ X3D for Developers Page 18:01:10 Title: X3D for Developers (at www.web3d.org) 18:03:34 cardona507 has joined #html-wg 18:05:33 mjs has joined #html-wg 18:06:33 shiki has joined #html-wg 18:06:51 weinig has joined #html-wg 18:07:37 cardona507 has joined #html-wg 18:08:13 jallan has joined #html-wg 18:08:54 marcin has joined #html-wg 18:09:03 Travis has joined #html-wg 18:09:20 Eliot_Graff has joined #html-wg 18:10:29 jallan has left #html-wg 18:11:39 mth has joined #html-wg 18:11:52 video talks on #video now 18:14:02 Julian has joined #html-wg 18:14:33 TabAtkins has joined #html-wg 18:14:57 scribe: Travis 18:15:01 scribeNick: Travis 18:15:30 JN: [presents tentative TC39 agenda] 18:16:24 weinig: Brief overview of WebIDL 18:16:46 dmcallis has joined #html-wg 18:16:53 ... Intent of WebIDL is to give unitified place for DOM + other specs a JavaScript binding. 18:17:01 ... want to give it as much clarity as possible 18:17:14 ... vs. previous IDLs which were more ambiguous 18:17:23 ... now it defines how prototypes interact... 18:17:41 ... getter/setters for collections (not same as accessors) 18:17:58 ... extra property semantics (e.g., [Replacable]) 18:18:12 ... would like to take it to Last Call ASAP, but understand there are more concerns. 18:18:27 MJS: discussed webidl in the WebApps WG meeting earlier this week. 18:18:35 tross has joined #html-wg 18:18:46 ... decided to first move existing semantics over to ES5 semantics. 18:19:23 AWB: Some TC39 concerns with current draft: ES binding is not what is classicly considered a language binding. 18:19:27 rrsagent, draft minutes 18:19:27 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg-minutes.html JonathanJ 18:19:28 Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 06 Nov 2009 (at www.w3.org) 18:19:38 MJS: maps to host object extensibilily 18:19:55 satoshi has joined #html-wg 18:20:00 AWB: could be interpreted as colliding with ES language definitions. 18:20:19 weinig: Also key idea is to define what behaviors allready exist in browsers 18:20:40 MM: TC39 understands that for things that already exist we do need a formalism for these things... 18:21:12 ... TC39 has been trying to narrow the gab between host objects and native objects. 18:21:25 s/gab/gap/ 18:21:46 ... HTML5 has used the WebIDL spec to spec things that are in the gab. Many of these things are considered bad practice (name getters) 18:22:04 ... Would like to have design contraints to see what should be avoided in future specs. 18:22:54 weinig: Discussed earlier this week, and decided to split out some of these "bad practices" into different parts of the spec (or make them clear) 18:23:21 AWB: Ideally, useful features that are host object extensions should come back into the native language. 18:24:02 MJS: Goal at a high level is to ultimately converge. By extending ECMAScript on one hand, and carefully control what behaviors are availble in new specs (and what shouldn't be used). 18:24:28 ... WebIDL can be the bridge to what is considered appropriate. 18:24:43 paulc: Coming back to building an agenda. 18:26:45 MJS: Would like to add topic on Binary data and pushing it into core ECMAScript. 18:28:36 annevk: you have a proposal? 18:28:52 mjs has :) 18:29:21 yfukami has joined #html-wg 18:30:09 annevk: oh, you meant, "•annevk wants His binary data proposal" 18:30:30 ArtB has joined #html-wg 18:32:09 paulc: Last call on the agenda? 18:32:39 weinig, no, I just want to have an object in ECMAScript so I can use it :) 18:33:03 responseData (or whatever) on XHR 18:33:15 marcin has joined #html-wg 18:33:33 oliver has joined #html-wg 18:34:42 Topic: WebIDL (10 min) 18:35:03 Kai has joined #html-wg 18:35:13 paulc: Was some agreement on trying to mark the features that are not well liked... 18:35:37 ... Not wanting to use the word "deprecated". Call for discussion. 18:36:32 MM: Came up with a four-part classification for "to be avoided" 18:36:50 paulc: Four classes for all features or just the ones we don't like. 18:37:15 MM: Four categtories to mark all features (like, not like 1-3) 18:37:43 MJS: Possible dimensions:is this a legacy feature not recommended 18:38:36 tobyx has joined #html-wg 18:38:44 ... May be features in WebIDL that are highly experimental 18:38:52 AWB: List is: (5 items) 18:38:55 ... "Good parts" 18:39:03 ... "De Jour for legacy support" 18:39:16 ... "Deprecated" (like last one, but expectation of future removal) 18:40:16 ... "ES5's appendix B (normative (if you implement, it must be implemented as such)) 18:40:31 ... "Things considered, but rejected and why?" 18:40:45 MJS: Think it's worth documenting but not in WebIDL 18:41:00 paulc: I call this "out of scope" 18:41:17 AWB: I like "rejected" from IDL. 18:41:41 paulc: "rejected" category does not apply to anything in the WebIDL right now? 18:42:04 MM: If there is some feature in the current WebIDL, by inspection, we could mark such a feature right now. 18:42:08 samth has joined #html-wg 18:42:39 AWB: Also, something in one browser but not all, that thing might be considered in WebIDL, but was rejected even though it had an implementation. 18:42:48 shelleyp has joined #html-wg 18:43:01 paulc: Have we applied the 5 category taxonomy to the current WebIDL? 18:43:07 AWB: Not yet. 18:43:32 MJS: Might be more useful to wait to do this until after we've recast the current WebIDL spec into ES5 parlance. 18:43:36 drogersuk has joined #html-wg 18:44:09 MJS: I think distinction between "Requred for legacy" and "Deprecated" is not really sufficiently different. 18:44:51 paulc: Agreement on 1) recast in ES5, then 2) apply taxonomy. 18:45:06 MM: Let's not be too ridgid about it.. but we should get both of them done. 18:45:44 masinter has joined #html-wg 18:46:10 JO: Are there questions about what the semantics should be (currently are using internal hooks to ES specs) 18:46:24 ... May want to get agreement in this room? 18:46:27 BE: Use the list 18:47:56 paulc: [recap main points] 18:48:19 MM: Was a recent shift in WebIDL where some things moved from annotations into the main grammar 18:48:46 ... Was intended [the grammer] to be the language independent semantics; yet some of those things didn't actually apply to Java... 18:49:01 ... Should be careful to make the syntax more language independent 18:49:48 MJS: Design Principle: Language independent should be in the core syntax, other things should be extended attributes. 18:49:55 ... does this make sense Sam? 18:50:17 weinig: It can be fuzzy depending on the language (some have getter/setters, other don't) 18:50:47 Topic: Binary data in ECMAScript (15 min) 18:51:02 MJS: Goes to the sketchpad 18:51:25 ... Design goals were influenced by Web APIs that would like to use binary data. 18:51:34 ... In one case the UA has data in an internal buffer 18:51:50 ... Would like to achieve cross-thread transfer of data. 18:52:14 ... Approaches both point to having an immutable data store (makes it easy to transfer handles safely without copying data) 18:52:30 ... Some mutable tricks are possible but not necessarily thread-safe or performant. 18:52:38 JO: Examples? 18:53:09 MJS: XHR to retrieve binary data. 18:53:23 ... Would be nice to have a shared buffer 18:53:54 WH: What is needed over and above strings? 18:54:05 MJS: 1st point: lack of conceptual clarity 18:54:16 ... Binary data is a byte, others are unicode chars 18:54:18 tlr has joined #html-wg 18:54:30 ... Would be nice to not have to raise that question. 18:54:36 Julian has joined #html-wg 18:54:48 bugmail: [Bug 8220] New: Remove microdata <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0066.html> 18:54:51 ... Also, not having to use a 16 bit sequence to represent octet data. 18:55:18 ... Also ability to get immutable data out. 18:55:49 ... to base64 encode could be hard [clarification needed] 18:56:20 ... Other design point in my proposal was to get to the bare-minimum set of functionality 18:56:37 rrsagent, draft minutes 18:56:37 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg-minutes.html JonathanJ 18:56:38 Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 06 Nov 2009 (at www.w3.org) 18:56:47 ... Didn't want to have a cumbersome interface (e.g., with transcoding, hash computations, base64 encoding) 18:57:01 ... Would like to leave that stuff out because we don't know what's needed yet. 18:57:11
tH has joined #html-wg 18:57:16 is there a pointer to this oft-mentioned proposal? 18:57:20 WH: I see base64 encoding as necessary. 18:57:48 AWB: I like what you're suggesting--providing the right primitives and allowing libraries to extend. 18:58:04 MJS: Most primitive conversion would be toUTF16 and back. 18:58:22 dom has joined #html-wg 18:58:43 MM: First rollout would allow libraries to use, then see what libraries find useful then roll those things back into the standard. 18:58:50 tantek has joined #html-wg 18:59:08 WH: Must be careful--providing the wrong set of primitives could lead to bad performance problems... 18:59:53 MJS: Given three design proposals, what problems are left (that I see)? 19:00:04 ... Choosing the name (not trivial) 19:00:30 ... want to stay away from names that include the specific underlying data store... 19:01:16 MJS: If you think of these as a sequences, they are octet sequences (bytes) 19:01:39 AWB: Some scenarios may consider these 16-bit floats, other as larger sets. 19:02:20 OH: focus has been mostly on String/Binary 19:02:33 ... WebGL defines byte array, int array, etc. 19:03:07 ... Without the underlying data store, you have to use strings to transfer the data around. 19:03:21 MJS: Second issue: Immutable vs. Mutable. 19:03:29 ... Done via freeze() or via two types? 19:03:54 ... preference is to have two types. Should have continued discussion on the list. 19:04:05 ... Final issue, what operations are built in? 19:04:36 ... Byte level read/write, read (immutable), memcopy 19:04:50 ... Also see character transcoding, etc. that may be part of the initial set. 19:05:03 ... Would like to be more strict in the initial release. 19:05:13 WH: How would equality work? 19:05:36 tlr has joined #html-wg 19:06:16 MM: Equality--are these primitive types or object types? 19:06:53 ... If the data object is more like the string object, then it should be a value object (than a primitive type) 19:07:17 paulc: [moving on to next topic] 19:07:38 Topic: ECMAScript preventExtensions() and DOM objects 19:07:46 OH: Brought up on the list before. 19:07:59 ... DOM objects should not support this. 19:08:20 ... If they do not support it, then they "cannot" support it (no partial support) 19:08:58 MJS: Soley from a WebIDL interface, could mark it as supporting (or not) prevent extensions. 19:09:35 ScribeNick: fantasai 19:09:36 rrsagent, draft minutes 19:09:36 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg-minutes.html JonathanJ 19:09:37 Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 06 Nov 2009 (at www.w3.org) 19:10:30 ?: We're not talking just about preventExtension, we're also talking about (?) 19:10:39 ?: readonly doesn't imply immutable. The host can change it 19:10:59 s/?/Mark Miller/ 19:11:14 ??: On the readonly question, in my rough translation of WebIDL to ECMASCRIPT5, most of the DOM properites become accessors sot hat the changeability of the underlying data ... 19:11:43 ??: on principle, I would really rather see a clearly defined way to preventExtensions work across all ... and not restrict it to [?] 19:11:53 ??: Web developers expect to see a consistent view of the world 19:11:57 s/??/Travis L/ 19:12:12 MJS: You would have to have ECMASCRIPT objects prevent state changes completely unrelated to ECMASCRIPT 19:12:22 s/??/Travis L/ 19:12:27 ???: We would .. preventExtensions and prevent Freeze 19:12:32 Paul interrupts 19:12:45 s/???/Waldemar/ 19:12:49 JasonO: I agre that it's better to have a language semantics that applies to all objects in the lang 19:13:03 JasonO: I think it's possible, and the ECMAScript committee should take that on. DOM is one of our major usecases 19:13:29 JasonO: Freeze on an object may not prevent new prop from appearing on the obj, but it certainly can apply to properties added by script 19:13:54 q+ 19:14:12 Waldemar: Part of what's freeze and friends do in ECMAScript is they ... which it throws, you can cache it. And you can do security analysis on it, if these things can change .. breaks 19:14:16 dsinger, wrong room? 19:14:37 Waldemar: We have additional issue swe have other issue.s For getters and setters ... what do these do if you call them something else ... consciously say that's not part fo the spec 19:15:05 Jason: I disagree that freeze by itself provides these invariants. 19:15:25 Jason: The ES5 spec says what freeze does. DOesn't say that there's an end-to-end variant that freeze causes to be true 19:15:28 disagreement 19:15:34 Jason: prototype vs itself 19:16:02 Jason: Given stat eo fDOM right now, calling reeze on dom obj, even if you call recusrsively on prot chain, it's not well-define 19:16:11 ?: It's well defined what the invariants are 19:16:20 s/?/Mark Miller/ 19:16:35 Jason: The behavior of getters and setters can depend on mutable state that's not visible anywhere else except on the object. 19:16:54 Jason: Calling it freeze if you don't know the impl of the getters and setters isn't predictable 19:16:59 MJS: ... 19:17:26 Waldemar: Freeze freezes the object. If an obj has getters and setters .. API. There asre still objects that can return different things 19:17:31 Waldemar: this is a non-issue 19:17:45 somebody says something 19:18:00 ??: The getter itself is the only thing that's guaranteed to be constant 19:18:16 s/??/OH/ 19:18:18 Mark: ... the local properties are unchanging 19:18:42 Mark: If the obj has getter bhavior that it chooses to describe as data behavior, it has the choice of either frezing its describe its bheavior or rejecting the attempt to freeze 19:18:54 Mark: If it accepts the attempt to freeze, then it can't describe as data prop 19:19:07 Jason: I object that freeze freezes the state of the obj in a very general sense 19:19:23 Allan: My inter of your points is that you're copying at different levels of abstraction 19:19:57 Allan: It's about the meta state 19:19:59 ... 19:20:08 s/Allan/Allen Wirfs-Brock/ 19:20:11 ??: If I have a nodelist w/ a linked property 19:20:22 ??: do I represent it as .. that's writeable, or do I expose as a getter 19:20:36 ?? ... guarantee quality of that getter.. may vary from one obj to another 19:20:52 Allan: I think that q falls into domain of ES binding. That's the decision you make when defining a lang binding 19:21:04 Allen: Do all prop with these charactersics behave this way 19:21:06 s/??/Oliver/ 19:21:20 Brendan: Do you have a problem with trying to propose a freeze that ... or ....... 19:21:23 :/ 19:21:45 ?: My op is that we take on the effort of ... 19:21:45 drunknbass_work has joined #html-wg 19:21:56 Brendan: Need to spec that if you freeze what happens 19:22:02 Brendan: .. netapi tells you about DOM properties 19:22:08 ?: I think that spec goes to web apps 19:22:18 ?: I believe those issues have to be addressed in the conversion 19:22:31 ?: I am satisfied with teh discussion 19:22:41 s/?/Travis/ 19:23:01 s/teh/the/ 19:23:16 ??: By defining how attributes in general work, whether they rep getter on the obj itself or on the prototype is something that's going to be intrinsic in converting to ES5. That concept wasn't in ES3, couldn't be desc in ES3. Once we have that tool we'll have a better understanding of interaction with these meta-apis wil lbe 19:23:22 Julian has joined #html-wg 19:23:33 ??: Without this new desc ,.. part of defining new desc will be talking with browser impl about .. 19:23:40 s/??/Sam/ 19:23:43 ??: There may be downsides to impl attributes as getters and setters 19:23:50 s/??/Sam/ 19:23:52 Paul: Seem to have anchored plan w/ webidl 19:24:05 scribe: Travis 19:24:12 scribeNick: Travis 19:24:35 Topic: Differences in Policy 19:25:15 JN: Secretary Genearl of ECMAScript should sit down with W3C contact and work out issues in IPR, other legal issues. 19:25:25 JN: These are way outside of my pay grade. 19:25:49 ... We wanted to point out that we have these issues before we work really closely. 19:26:06 paulc: Are there any issues going on today that are upsetting? 19:26:20 JN: No, no joint ventures today. 19:26:34 jorendorff has joined #html-wg 19:26:38 paulc: We do work, throw it over the fence, and this seems to work for now. 19:26:50 AWB: Hasn't necessary been the working model up until today. 19:27:06 ... In the past there was little to no communication between our groups. 19:27:31 paulc: Web developer expects to have symmetry 19:27:49 AWB: Many of us are associated with both affiliations (TC39/W3C) 19:28:18 PL: Thanks TC39 for accepting our invitiation to join. 19:28:28 s/PL/PLH/ 19:29:01 ... We are a technical organization. We can hand off any/all documents needed (e.g., IPR) 19:29:38 IS: One of the issues is the IPR policy. W3C IPR policy is very well known. Also should be royalty-free. 19:30:01 ... ECMAScript has current IPR policy--will be gettting a new one very much the same as the old. 19:30:30 ... going to royalty free. 19:30:52 ... Intention is to do something that matches W3C policy 19:31:05 ... May not need memoriandum of understanding. 19:31:24 ... Current status is not to sign such a memoriandum. 19:31:37 PLH: We offer the full spectrum of arrangements 19:32:16 IS: ECMAScript can disclose its policies (are archived already) 19:32:36 paulc: sounds like nothing further is needed (in this group) regarding IPR policy. 19:32:59 plh-salonA, the "IPR book" is a printout of HTML5? :) 19:33:05 JN: We have a discussion list (es-discuss) for all things "Harmony" (3 years out probably) 19:33:14 ... All work is going on that list 19:33:17 https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss 19:33:19 Title: es-discuss Info Page (at mail.mozilla.org) 19:33:20 annevk, yes :) 19:33:40 ouch 19:33:42 BE: Current work related is being cross-posted to public-script-coord 19:33:57 the printout is the html5 spoec as of Oct 9, 2009. 19:34:05 Julian has joined #html-wg 19:34:08 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-script-coord/ 19:34:09 Title: public-script-coord@w3.org Mail Archives (at lists.w3.org) 19:34:13 s/spoec/spec/ 19:34:20 ... public-script-coord is for info related to WebIDL binding issues, but exact lines of deliniation are murky. 19:34:22 might want to add a new spec status: "Critical Mass" 19:34:33 paulc: Should describe what lists are for what. 19:34:44 MM: Binary discussion should move to es-discuss. 19:35:26 MJS: Should go mostly to the es-discuss list. Not a lot of open issues in the scenarios/use cases. 19:35:36 paulc: participation issues? 19:35:44 rrsagent, draft minutes 19:35:44 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg-minutes.html JonathanJ 19:35:45 Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 06 Nov 2009 (at www.w3.org) 19:36:24 JN: Where some members are not also in W3C, there are some pariticpation issues. 19:36:40 ... personally, I stayed away from plenary day because I knew I couldn't get in. 19:36:48 ... we have at least one other member that can't really participate. 19:37:07 paulc: to be clear--is this because of the IPR policy of the organisation? 19:37:28 JN: Just concerned if we get into a relationship where we are jointly building a specification. 19:37:41 paulc: can't imagine doing that with out a memoriandum of understanding. 19:38:31 Don Bruztman, Web3D 19:38:39 DB: X3D graphics seems to have re-hashed some of these issues. Perhaps some of our learnings can be shared. 19:38:52 paulc: Summary 19:39:17 ... Agreed upon an oral plan: Recast WebIDL in ECAMScript 5 and in parallel, describe taxonomy. 19:39:40 ... Also address issues of preventExtensions, etc. 19:39:59 ... Lies mostly on WebIDL delivery and specifically on weinig. 19:40:17 ... Binary data discussion to continue on es-discuss 19:40:47 ... Regarding Policy issues, moving to joint work will require more formalism (current ad-hoc and mailing list coordination seems OK) 19:41:08 ... So, what are a future plans for coordination? 19:41:50 JN: TC39 meets every other month (F2F) mostly in the bay area. 19:42:05 ... Try to get up to Redmond in July (it's nice there) 19:42:14 Julian has joined #html-wg 19:42:35 ... Next meeting TC39 is next January, then every other month. 19:42:57 PLH: One point of information is that next TPAC is in November in Europe (location pending) 19:43:55 AVK: WebApps have some targeted meetings for specific topics. 19:45:23 I like F2F. Can we set something else up for next year (given that TPAC will be in Europe)? 19:45:47 paulc: I will leave the final decisions up to WebApps WG and TC39. 19:46:26 PLH: AC meeting in March may be an option. If the TC39 and WebApps wanted to meet around that time, we could arrange some extra rooms. 19:47:05 JN: Doesn't have to be in the bay area, but would like to keep the every-two-months heartbeat meeting if possible. 19:47:45 rubys: Plenty of companies in bay area that could host. 19:48:07 gsnedders_ has joined #html-wg 19:48:28 paulc: I think we're done. Thank you all! 19:49:13 bye 19:49:21 soonho has left #html-wg 19:49:35 JN: Please send minutes to TC39 19:55:02 bugmail: "[Bug 8220] Remove microdata" (2 messages in thread) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0068.html> 20:07:14 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 20:09:56 silvia has joined #html-wg 20:13:37 Lachy has joined #html-wg 20:14:05 Lachy has joined #html-wg 20:16:38 tantek has joined #html-wg 20:18:23 Lachy has joined #html-wg 20:24:17 J_Voracek has joined #html-wg 20:38:18 silvia has joined #html-wg 20:55:18 bugmail: [Bug 8223] New: Won't this Doctype trigger Quirks Mode? <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0069.html> 20:56:38 cardona507 has joined #html-wg 20:57:20 timbl_ has joined #html-wg 21:02:07 RRSAgent, pointer? 21:02:07 See http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg-irc#T21-02-07 21:06:55 rubys has joined #html-wg 21:08:20 cardona507 has joined #html-wg 21:10:21 cardona507_ has joined #html-wg 21:11:14 plh has joined #html-wg 21:12:44 Laura has joined #html-wg 21:12:59 tlr has joined #html-wg 21:13:03 mjs has joined #html-wg 21:14:44 Kai has joined #html-wg 21:25:50 jorendorff has joined #html-wg 21:27:10 kohei has joined #html-wg 21:28:30 timbl has joined #html-wg 21:30:46 mjs has joined #html-wg 21:31:12 sylvaing has joined #html-wg 21:31:20 weinig has joined #html-wg 21:32:23 oliver has joined #html-wg 21:34:07 timbl has joined #html-wg 21:34:09 annevk has joined #html-wg 21:34:38 Arron has joined #html-wg 21:34:42 adrianba has joined #html-wg 21:38:20 MikeSmith has joined #html-wg 21:38:50 satoshi has joined #html-wg 21:38:51 Eliot_Graff has joined #html-wg 21:38:52 Julian has joined #html-wg 21:39:00 Topic: predefined Microdata vocabularies 21:39:05 scribe: MikeSmith 21:39:51 tantek: [asks if anybody in the room has tried out Microdata] 21:40:10 tc is tantek 21:40:33 tc: so we are not discussing the Microdata syntax or processing during this session 21:41:00 ... instead we're covering the related predefined vocabularies 21:41:01 TabAtkins has joined #html-wg 21:41:13 ... which are now in separate specs 21:41:30 ... which Hixie has requested to be published as WDs 21:41:38 Kangchan has joined #html-wg 21:42:01 tc: those are: vcard, vevent, license 21:42:36 tc: these are not new inventions 21:43:08 ... vcard and ical came from IETF specs 21:43:37 ... around 2004 I proposed creating hCard and hCalendar 21:44:15 ... which defined a way for representing vcard and ical in HTML 21:44:32 mth has joined #html-wg 21:44:37 ... (while the definitions of the semantics remain in the IETF specs) 21:45:27 tc: so Hixie based Microdata's vcard and vevent on hcard and hCalendar 21:46:47 tc: in the mean time, we have been working on making bug fixes to hCard and hCalendar 21:47:16 tc: so the original vocabs remain the same, and the rest of this is based on those 21:47:28 silvia has joined #html-wg 21:47:40 drogersuk has joined #html-wg 21:47:57 tc: but we had existing bugs, which Hixie replicated into Microdata's vcard and vevent 21:48:23 ... so those bugs in the Microdata vocab specs not to be fixed to address those bugs 21:48:39 that last line made no sense 21:48:49 need to be fixed? 21:48:56 Hixie, yep 21:48:58 s/not to be/need to be/ 21:49:02 thx 21:49:17 is there a uri to documentation on those bugs in the microdata vocabs? 21:49:23 (bugs, or e-mails, or something?) 21:50:07 tc: the bugs are documented on the Microformats side 21:51:23 i'm in paticular interested in how they were ported over 21:51:38 tc: the Microdata vocabs should reference the 1.01 versions of the hCard and hCalendar instead of duplicating them 21:51:44 i didn't really look that closely at hcard when writing the vcard vocabulary, i was mostly just porting the RFC straight over 21:51:54 so i'm surprised that i ported bugs over from hcard also 21:52:04 unless they're in the vcard rfc too :-) 21:52:05 tc: I am behind on an action item to provide feedback to the group about this 21:52:42 Hixie, I think Julian said that the RFCs have been updated also 21:52:57 They are currently being revised, IIRC 21:53:42 oh certainly the rfcs are being updated yes 21:53:50 Julian: Tantek, would you be interested in publishing the hcard and hcalendar specs as work products of the HTML WG? 21:54:26 tc: I would be fine with that, but maybe others would object. I guess it's a question that needs to be taken to the group. 21:54:39 Hixie: It's a questioned of updated/revised :) 21:55:02 s//being/ 21:55:11 Lachy has joined #html-wg 21:55:15 that's a very confusing regexp 21:55:23 tc: perhaps the larger question is whether the W3C should be publishing spec for these types of vocabs at all 21:55:25 and i expect it'll confuse rrsagent no end 21:55:34 Bert has joined #html-wg 21:56:03 tc: I personally am neutral on the question of whether these type of vocab specs should be at W3C or not 21:56:11 it's a magic-exactly-what-I-mean-IRC-regexp :) 21:56:49 Julian: the text that was in the HTML5 spec previously repeated or rephrased parts of the RFCs 21:57:40 ... so my complaint was that if the wording of those RFCs was not adequate or was incorrect, then the feedback should go to the editors of those RFCs 21:57:53 ... so the RFCs could be updated 21:58:01 RRSAgent, make minutes 21:58:01 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith 21:58:03 Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 06 Nov 2009 (at www.w3.org) 21:58:35 tc: vcard 4 is a new version with a ton of new features 21:58:46 ... it also has a number of bug fixes 21:59:13 tc: there are a couple of places where I diverged from the RFCs 21:59:35 ... because the RFCs did not match the use cases 22:00:28 tc: an example of a bug/deficiency in the RFCs where Web publishing differed from the schema restrictions in the iCalendar RFC 22:00:56 ... specifically, the RFC restricts events to having only one URL associated with them 22:01:58 ... and when Hixie made Microdata vEvent vocab, he replicated that same restriction that's out of sync with real-world use cases of Web publishing of events 22:02:12 noahm has joined #html-wg 22:02:34 ... whereas in hCalendar, we had made a change to allow an event to be associated with multiple URLs 22:03:10 yeah i just followd the rfc exactly 22:03:17 i'll fix it when the rfc is updated 22:03:20 which i understand is happening 22:03:44 tc: so, we are already tracking the RFCs and making decisions about where to diverge from the RFCs to bring them into closer alignment with real-world use cases 22:04:37 tc: so I would like for the HTML WG to hold off on publishing the Microdata vocab drafts until the hCard and hCalendar specs get updated 22:04:47 ... which will either be a matter of days or weeks 22:05:15 ... I would like to get it done in days rather than in weeks [but it will depend on how much time I can free up] 22:05:46 ... specifically, I'm talking about the 1.01 versions 22:06:58 tc: I think the vCard 4 and iCal 5545 drafts are not enough yet to be depended on 22:07:08 ... though iCal 5545 might be 22:07:55 ... but, no offense to the vCard folks, but I think there's just too much new stuff in vCard 4 that it's too early to be depending on it 22:08:01 cardona507 has joined #html-wg 22:08:39 Julian: so another part of the perspective here is just that in general the HTML WG should avoid stepping on other peoples' specs 22:08:45 tantek has joined #html-wg 22:09:33 Julian: I am worried about cases where other specs diverge from the RFCs 22:10:17 tantek: so we do diverge, but we do so in a way that enables 1-to-1 conversion back to the format specified in the RFCs 22:10:48 Julian: the revision of the iCal draft was published just two months ago 22:11:38 Julian: the vCard draft is all well along -- can still submit bug reports about it, but it's perhaps just a matter of 6 months away from being published as an RFC 22:12:25 Julian: my concern is that it's not clear that Hixie has had any communication with the vCard and vCalendar editors 22:13:21 http://dev.w3.org/html5/mdvcard/ 22:13:23 Title: Microdata vocabularies: vCard (at dev.w3.org) 22:13:31 http://dev.w3.org/html5/mdvevent/ 22:13:32 Title: Microdata vocabularies: vEvent (at dev.w3.org) 22:13:32 the vcard microdata vocab is just a direct port of the rfc, so it's not clear what communication is necessary 22:13:40 same with vevent 22:13:42 http://dev.w3.org/html5/mdwork/ 22:13:43 Title: Microdata vocabularies: Licensing Works (at dev.w3.org) 22:14:27 we move on to discussion of the "work" (license) vocab 22:14:38 (i'll be over for / discussion in 15min) 22:14:45 we're moving on to web storage here 22:15:14 silvia has joined #html-wg 22:15:20 tc: at a minimum, you have to define a processing model for cases where authors omit content which the spec says is required 22:16:50 tc: in 2000-something, a CC RDF rel vocab was created 22:17:13 mjs has joined #html-wg 22:17:39 weinig has joined #html-wg 22:17:59 ... then in 2004 a microformat rel-license mechanism was created, and subsequently a CC rel-license 22:19:02 tc: I think that the state of things around license vocabs is not mature enough yet 22:20:08 ... and I propose that the HTML WG should not at this point be publishing the works vocab spec at all 22:21:04 Julian: usually the page that you read in a browser and the feed that you read in a feed reader are generated from the same source (by a CMS or whatever) 22:21:56 ... so as far as the Microdata Atom spec, I'm not sure that there's any problem that it's really solving 22:23:24 Julian: my proposal is either fix the language in the spec to say that if you don't have sufficient information in the document to be able to generate a valid/conformant Atom instance, then the spec should say, just don't. 22:23:41 ... or the spec should just be dropped completely 22:25:52 Julian: so one specific problem is that if you don't have IDs in the HTML source document, then you can't generate stable IDs in the Atom output 22:27:11 mjs: the Atom spec seems to only require that ID remains stable within the Atom document instance itself 22:27:47 cardona507 has joined #html-wg 22:28:11 Julian: so the concern is not the case of generating the Atom output from exactly the same HTML document, but instead generating it from *almost* the same HTML document 22:29:18 mjs: there does not actually seem to be any conformance constraint in the Atom spec that states the requirement you're expressing 22:29:49 tc: there are numerous "must" requirements in the Atom spec that a problematic 22:30:28 ... in hAtom we are going to make all those "must" fields optional (because there are many cases of existing content that lack them) 22:30:56 ... and we will define an algorithm for generating content for them when the source lacks them 22:31:28 annevk: the Atom spec only talks about Atom documents 22:32:11 ... it does not express requirements for documents from which Atom documents might be generated 22:33:19 Bryan_Sullivan has joined #html-wg 22:33:26 Hixie: the reason it's a "should" in HTML5 is that we know it's not always possible to output a valid Atom document 22:34:36 Julian: so one way to address this is to remove the whole section about generating Atom output 22:35:09 Hixie: I think it's good to have a solid mapping from HTML to Atom (though "solid" isn't exactly the best word) 22:35:32 tc: but you don't really have a solid mapping 22:35:51 Hixie: I'm happy to add text to the spec to put out the problem 22:36:11 dom has left #html-wg 22:36:34 Hixie: inclusion of this in the spec was driven by use cases that were expressed in the discussions that led up to Microdata 22:36:45 RRSAgent, make minutes 22:36:45 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith 22:36:46 Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 05 Nov 2009 (at www.w3.org) 22:37:16 mjs: there are two possible reasons why this doesn't need to be in the spec 22:37:27 ... one is whether any other part of the spec relies on this section 22:37:51 ... second is that there is more than one possible way to generate Atom output from an HTML document 22:38:12 ... and currently the spec makes it seem like there is only one valid way to do it 22:38:43 ... so it seems like there may not be a strong reason for keeping it in the spec 22:39:22 ... instead of having one or more specs layered on top of HTML5 spec (because there are multiple ways to generate Atom output from HTML docs) 22:39:50 Hixie: my rationale for including it in the spec is that it addresses use cases that were expressed in discussions 22:39:52 satoshi has joined #html-wg 22:40:02 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 22:40:57 silvia has joined #html-wg 22:41:27 topic: progress/meter 22:41:43 PIon has joined #html-wg 22:41:47 Hixie: fallback options 22:42:13 Hixie: problem with formatting of values 22:42:13 i/progress/mjs: because it's targeted at a different conformance class than other conformance classes in the spec, it could just as well be published as a separate draft 22:42:25 like delimites after thousands 22:43:16 TC: may need require element 22:44:09 TC: isomorphic to time element 22:44:39 Hixie: progress has 6 numbers attached to it 22:44:52 mjs: is updated by script anyway 22:45:15 mjs: meter may be different, because there are cases for static use 22:46:09 adrian: worried about fallback breaking 22:46:57 adrian: testing will be costly 22:47:09 Hixie: consensus to remove fallback? 22:47:34 TC: would be useful in many microformats 22:47:57 TC: is the one missing type element 22:48:29 Hixie: wanted to do first 22:49:38 Hixie: can come without content, and then the UA is required to generate a localized 22:49:42 version 22:50:44 TabAtkins has joined #html-wg 22:51:04 time { content:local-time() } 22:51:31 (or something like that) 22:51:46 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 22:52:59 there seems to be consensus in the room not to have "magic fallback" 22:55:45 bugmail: [Bug 8225] New: Make it clear that the Atom generation section is not the only such algorithm (e.g. hAtom is fine too). <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0071.html> 4** [Bug 8224] New: Mention that it's possible for the Atom section to generate invalid Atom if there's not enough data (e.g. missing authors). <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0070.html> 22:57:34 noahm has joined #html-wg 23:00:19 jorendorff has joined #html-wg 23:04:43 kohei has joined #html-wg 23:12:22 gsnedders_ has joined #html-wg 23:16:58 Kangchan has left #html-wg 23:25:54 bugmail: [Bug 8226] New: inline review is goddamn annoying <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0073.html> 4** [Bug 8223] Won't this Doctype trigger Quirks Mode? <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0072.html> 23:31:13 MichaelC has joined #html-wg 23:31:16 silvia has joined #html-wg 23:31:52 Kai has joined #html-wg 23:32:11 annevk has joined #html-wg 23:33:23 BryanSullivan has joined #html-wg 23:33:36 here are the minutes from the tH has joined #html-wg 13:39:07 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 15:08:17 gsnedders_ has joined #html-wg 16:34:18 gavin has joined #html-wg 16:36:22 annevk has joined #html-wg 17:00:23 Lachy has joined #html-wg 17:00:25 tH has joined #html-wg 17:31:57 tantek has joined #html-wg 17:35:43 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 17:48:20 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 18:13:16 Lachy has joined #html-wg 18:15:49 annevk has left #html-wg 18:21:35 Lachy has joined #html-wg 19:19:05 gavin has joined #html-wg 19:47:23 J_Voracek has joined #html-wg 19:53:12 bugmail: [Bug 8230] New: It might be good with a comment in script's Content attributes section mentioning onload/onerror being defined in Global attributes (I've had the question come up several times about script.onload missing from html5). <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0077.html> 4** [Bug 8228] New: The formatting of the example is very screwed up. Needs to be reformatted to be readable. <11http://lists.w3.org/Ar 20:04:50 oliver has joined #html-wg 21:13:33 Lachy has joined #html-wg 21:40:18 ROBOd has joined #html-wg 21:53:42 bugmail: [Bug 8234] New: Can you clearify what you mean with the author link type, If i writes a paper, should I include an author link to my homepage then? <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0080.html> 4** [Bug 8233] New: [gsnedders] "datagrid" parsing rules should be removed now the element is gone. <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0079.html> 4** [Bug 8232] New: [gs] End tag "body 21:54:29 Yeah, get in there pimpbot, pimp ma bugs! 21:58:23 Because most standards groups are 90% politics? 21:58:32 gavin has joined #html-wg 21:59:47 That isn't a sufficient axiom to derive the conclusion that group statements are needed 22:00:35 What I would have liked to see in this case was: 22:01:07 a) the HTMLWG were alerted (as part of a more general announcement) that the MathML people were looking for feedback on their spec 22:01:46 The HTML WG chairs were on the chairs mailing list, who then forwarded the message to the entire group. 22:01:59 b) People provided feedback CCing in the HTMLWG in cases where the issue had some overlap 22:02:34 c) Followup and discussion from all concerned parties via email 22:02:40 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/chairs/2009JulSep/0072.html is where the request for review was 22:04:05 Yeah so the HTMLWG chairs should replay and say that due to the structure of our group we cannot provide a single feedback statement or something 22:04:19 s/single feedback statement/group position/ 22:05:10 (Which is better anyway because interactive discussion facilitates understanding on both sides making for a more useful review.) 22:07:06 (sending a huge document out and expecting a single coherent of comments from some other group that identifies all the issues they would have if they fully understood everything sounds like a losing proposition) 22:07:49 Getting consensus on anything from a huge groups seems virtually impossible 22:09:09 It is impossible except for the meaning of consensus that is "we ok a vote and this option won" 22:09:29 oliver has joined #html-wg 22:09:36 Which is a bit like saying that Americans have consensus that the Democrats are the best political party 22:09:51 s/ok/took/ 22:23:50 bugmail: [Bug 8235] New: Given that Gecko and Webkit don't support them in XML, I think that named properties in HTMLDocument objects should be restricted to HTML documents, given that this feature is only included for backward compatibility and is horribly designed. <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0081.html> 22:42:57 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 22:52:43 shepazu has joined #html-wg 22:53:59 bugmail: [Bug 8236] New: 1) why a query is stored in the `search' attribute and a URL fragment is stored in the `fragment' attribute? The naming is a bit confusing. 2) Why the is no restrictions for the `port' attribute: an integer in a range [0-65535]; 3) The getter condition fo <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0082.html> 23:43:00 oliver_ has joined #html-wg 00:13:41 deltab has joined #html-wg 00:50:13 weinig has joined #html-wg 00:57:33 gavin has joined #html-wg 01:24:37 bugmail: [Bug 8238] Add support for X3D <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0084.html> 4** [Bug 8238] New: Add support for X3D <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0083.html> 02:35:36 ed_work has joined #html-wg 02:35:37 gsnedders has joined #html-wg 03:26:08 gavin has joined #html-wg 03:33:59 J_Voracek has joined #html-wg 04:16:28 oliver has joined #html-wg 05:37:33 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 05:37:37 Lachy has joined #html-wg 05:56:39 Lachy has joined #html-wg 06:03:35 silvia has joined #html-wg 06:10:45 silvia has joined #html-wg 06:11:16 silvia has joined #html-wg 06:56:03 bugmail: [Bug 8235] Given that Gecko and Webkit don't support them in XML, I think that named properties in HTMLDocument objects should be restricted to HTML documents, given that this feature is only included for backward compatibility and is horribly designed. <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0087.html> 4** [Bug 8238] Add support for X3D <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0086.html> 06:58:29 oliver has joined #html-wg 07:26:09 bugmail: [Bug 8238] Add support for X3D <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0088.html> 07:40:45 silvia has left #html-wg 07:48:56 gavin has joined #html-wg 07:51:26 zcorpan has joined #html-wg 07:54:23 zcorpan has left #html-wg 09:51:33 ROBOd has joined #html-wg 10:06:37 gavin has joined #html-wg 10:56:52 bugmail: "[Bug 8238] Add support for X3D" (2 messages in thread) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0089.html> 11:29:13 mjs_ has joined #html-wg 11:36:45 mjs_ has joined #html-wg 12:25:49 myakura has joined #html-wg 12:27:15 bugmail: [Bug 8239] New: [gs] "insert a character" is impossible with e.g., ElementTree, as it has no concept of adjacent text nodes. Need to clarify whether that is ever conforming or not. <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0090.html> 12:36:50 myakura has joined #html-wg 12:57:24 bugmail: [Bug 8228] The formatting of the example is very screwed up. Needs to be reformatted to be readable. <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0092.html> 4** [Bug 8149] Why put the > signs at the beginning of the line here? It distracts from the example. <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0091.html> 13:10:41 J_Voracek has joined #html-wg 13:55:55 hermanon has joined #html-wg 13:57:48 hi,am using the GET method and am getting no headers why is that happening ,please? 14:01:32 forgive my boobness 14:01:44 i mean noobness:) 14:27:44 bugmail: [Bug 8240] New: Quote: "The value attribute must not be present unless the form attribute is present." This doesn't make sense, since the button can also belong to a form by being put between the form element tags. It should read: "The value attribute must not be prese <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0093.html> 14:38:03 gavin has joined #html-wg 14:51:50 planet: Is there a good jQuery Drag-and-drop file upload plugin? <11http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1663741/is-there-a-good-jquery-drag-and-drop-file-upload-plugin> 15:27:59 bugmail: [Bug 8238] Add support for X3D <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0094.html> 15:47:56 mth has joined #html-wg 15:59:20 mth has left #html-wg 16:44:13 hermanon has joined #html-wg 16:53:08 Lachy has joined #html-wg 16:58:19 bugmail: "[Bug 8238] Add support for X3D" (2 messages in thread) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0095.html> 17:28:26 bugmail: "[Bug 8238] Add support for X3D" (3 messages in thread) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0096.html> 17:38:09 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 17:58:33 bugmail: "[Bug 8238] Add support for X3D" (4 messages in thread) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0097.html> 17:58:45 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 18:17:19 weinig has joined #html-wg 18:28:38 bugmail: [Bug 8235] Given that Gecko and Webkit don't support them in XML, I think that named properties in HTMLDocument objects should be restricted to HTML documents, given that this feature is only included for backward compatibility and is horribly designed. <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0098.html> 18:32:44 weinig has joined #html-wg 18:35:50 weinig has joined #html-wg 18:52:43 planet: @sergray Yes, I'll be at the GDD in Moscow on Tuesday, doing HTML5 demos during the keynote, then an hour-long followup session. <11http://twitter.com/diveintomark/statuses/5537259119> 18:54:50 takkaria has joined #html-wg 19:27:22 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 19:29:36 oliver has joined #html-wg 20:17:59 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 21:29:26 bugmail: [Bug 8241] New: Named properties on window <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0099.html> 21:54:12 oliver has joined #html-wg 21:59:34 bugmail: [Bug 8243] New: It doesn't matter what the initial order of pending is, it is sorted in step 6. <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0101.html> 4** [Bug 8242] New: What if candidate doesn't have an ancestor element with an itemscope attribute? <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0100.html> 23:29:55 bugmail: [Bug 8244] New: can you make RDF statements where the subject is another resource here? Metadata has previously been normally where subject is the current resource (or object with rev) but general RDF does not constrain this. <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0102.html> 23:34:19 MarcoAchury has joined #html-wg 23:42:36 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 00:36:07 MarcoAchury has joined #html-wg 00:41:12 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 00:43:10 MarcoAchury has joined #html-wg 00:54:18 planet: 5 years of Firefox <11http://hacks.mozilla.org/2009/11/5-years/> 01:03:49 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 01:18:26 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 01:31:03 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 01:43:49 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 01:53:22 oliver has joined #html-wg 01:55:22 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 02:00:32 bugmail: "[Bug 8238] Add support for X3D" (2 messages in thread) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0104.html> 02:05:08 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 02:17:44 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 02:30:21 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 02:43:25 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 02:54:47 planet: HTML 5 filter language or some analog of filter language? <11http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1698754/html-5-filter-language-or-some-analog-of-filter-language> 02:55:17 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 03:08:19 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 03:18:56 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 03:29:58 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 03:41:59 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 03:52:36 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 04:05:13 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 04:17:50 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 04:30:27 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 04:43:03 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 04:55:40 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 05:08:17 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 05:11:16 oliver has joined #html-wg 05:20:54 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 05:33:30 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 05:44:01 oliver has joined #html-wg 05:55:35 planet: About Dynamic UI, Web-Apps, Performance, and State-Machines <11http://labs.trolltech.com/blogs/2009/11/09/about-dynamic-ui-web-apps-performance-and-state-machines/> 06:44:20 MarcoAchury1 has joined #html-wg 07:01:43 johndrinkwater has joined #html-wg 07:04:31 CIA-1 has joined #html-wg 08:39:05 MikeSmith has joined #html-wg 09:32:30 bugmail: [Bug 8246] New: what about IE parsing problems? http://html5doctor.com/dd-details-wrong-again/ <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0105.html> 09:47:27 ROBOd has joined #html-wg 10:09:05 Lachy has joined #html-wg 10:31:38 shepazu has joined #html-wg 10:32:18 Lachy has joined #html-wg 10:36:32 annevk has joined #html-wg 10:37:34 Lachy has joined #html-wg 10:39:20 annevk has joined #html-wg 11:38:08 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 11:54:45 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 12:07:22 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 12:19:58 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 12:32:35 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 12:39:54 myakura has joined #html-wg 12:45:13 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 12:55:50 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 12:57:20 planet: W3CTP: Technical Plenary Day <11http://annevankesteren.nl/2009/11/w3ctp-technical-plenary-day> 4** HTML 5 offline caching <11http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1207150/html-5-offline-caching> 12:58:47 annevk: I like the Hitchhike's Guide comparison 13:02:10 MarcoAchury has joined #html-wg 13:08:27 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 13:21:03 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 13:32:05 plh has joined #html-wg 13:33:40 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 13:57:34 planet: Should I care about HTML 5? <11http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1523629/should-i-care-about-html-5> 14:01:21 jgraham: annevk's blog, which pimpbot mentioned, I expect 14:04:54 The question is earth 14:07:05 I feel the unicorns have somewhat pushed the ponies out of the spotlight 14:07:42 for fictional creatures that is quite a feat 14:08:46 If the ponies are feeling left out, they can easily just stick a Cornetto on their heads and pretend to be unicorns 14:09:10 timbl has joined #html-wg 14:09:16 Why should the ponies have to adjust? It's not their fault they were born without horns. 14:12:15 Life's not fair 14:12:22 The ponies have to learn that 14:52:31 gavin has joined #html-wg 15:25:43 aroben has joined #html-wg 15:30:22 eric_carlson has joined #html-wg 15:58:56 Stevef has joined #html-wg 15:59:34 Philip: do you have any stats on usage of event handlers on elements? 16:04:01 bugmail: [Bug 8249] New: gjfhjkffffkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0106.html> 16:11:15 Stevef: What kind of stats? 16:11:30 http://philip.html5.org/data/attr-count-pages-dotbot.txt has counts of number of pages using attributes, which includes the on* attributes 16:12:05 Philip: actually do you have the urls for those?, would be really useful 16:12:59 Philip: for the onclick in particular 16:20:09 drunknbass_work has joined #html-wg 16:34:10 bugmail: [Bug 8249] gjfhjkffffkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0107.html> 16:49:22 anne has joined #html-wg 16:52:51 Stevef: Sorry, got distracted 16:53:23 If you happen to read the logs then please remind to respond when you're here :-) 17:04:49 krijnh has joined #html-wg 17:15:26 arronei has joined #html-wg 17:17:58 laplink has joined #html-wg 17:30:21 tH has joined #html-wg 17:36:00 gavin has joined #html-wg 18:20:32 weinig has joined #html-wg 18:24:53 drunknbass_work has joined #html-wg 18:37:04 drunknbass_work has joined #html-wg 18:40:19 Lachy has joined #html-wg 18:40:24 Lachy has joined #html-wg 18:54:17 timbl has joined #html-wg 19:35:56 oliver has joined #html-wg 19:36:11 oliver has joined #html-wg 19:59:01 planet: Which would you prefer? SVG, HTML5 or regen'd-PNG for graphs & charts? <11http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1702954/which-would-you-prefer-svg-html5-or-regend-png-for-graphs-charts> 19:59:29 Michelangelo has joined #HTML-WG 20:32:53 laplink has joined #html-wg 21:41:53 weinig_ has joined #html-wg 21:49:09 mjs has joined #html-wg 21:55:05 drry has joined #HTML-WG 22:05:32 bugmail: [Bug 8252] New: HTTP caching rules are _ignored_? What the hell? What's wrong with extending Cache-Control to support user-agent caching instead of coming up with an entirely new mechanism? <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0108.html> 22:39:48 MarcoAchury has joined #html-wg 22:50:44 MikeSmith has joined #html-wg 23:42:40 Lachy has joined #html-wg 23:42:52 Lachy has joined #html-wg 00:05:49 mjs has joined #html-wg 00:27:22 gavin has joined #html-wg 01:09:57 weinig has joined #html-wg 03:09:40 MarcoAchury has left #html-wg 03:37:14 gavin has joined #html-wg 03:42:21 mjs_ has joined #html-wg 03:52:56 MikeSmith has joined #html-wg 04:02:34 mjs has joined #html-wg 05:28:41 Michelangelo has joined #HTML-WG 05:28:50 back 06:08:46 mjs has joined #html-wg 07:07:02 weinig has joined #html-wg 07:28:35 laplink has joined #html-wg 07:53:46 annevk has joined #html-wg 07:55:06 gavin has joined #html-wg 09:08:14 Philip has joined #html-wg 09:18:00 Michelangelo has joined #HTML-WG 09:51:36 ROBOd has joined #html-wg 10:47:47 karl has joined #html-wg 11:50:11 mjs_ has joined #html-wg 12:14:42 mjs_ has joined #html-wg 12:39:16 bugmail: [Bug 8255] New: Channel messaging is missing a description of purpose <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0109.html> 14:05:00 Michelangelo has joined #HTML-WG 14:05:21 plh has joined #html-wg 14:09:45 jgrocha has joined #html-wg 14:09:55 jgrocha has left #html-wg 14:22:31 veosotano has joined #html-wg 14:53:00 Michelangelo has joined #HTML-WG 14:54:19 aroben has joined #html-wg 15:12:48 myakura has joined #html-wg 15:34:05 laplink has joined #html-wg 15:37:19 ROBOd has joined #html-wg 16:04:31 hsivonen has joined #html-wg 16:33:59 anne has left #html-wg 16:33:59 Dashiva has joined #html-wg 16:34:12 anne has joined #html-wg 16:41:59 Dashiva has joined #html-wg 17:10:17 bugmail: [Bug 8256] New: [gs] Is form.submit() async or sync? I don't see where this is defined. From my reading it should be sync, as it should just run the steps to completion. <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0110.html> 17:14:38 syp has joined #html-wg 17:23:43 arronei has joined #html-wg 17:40:25 bugmail: [Bug 8256] [gs] Is form.submit() async or sync? I don't see where this is defined. From my reading it should be sync, as it should just run the steps to completion. <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0111.html> 17:49:52 timbl has joined #html-wg 17:57:47 ROBOd has joined #html-wg 18:03:42 DanC has joined #html-wg 18:04:29 anybody know what became of the idea of ECMA TC-39 folks meeting with W3C folks at TPAC last week? 18:10:31 bugmail: "[Bug 8256] [gs] Is form.submit() async or sync? I don't see where this is defined. From my reading it should be sync, as it should just run the steps to completion." (2 messages in thread) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0112.html> 18:12:28 DanC has left #html-wg 18:26:24 tH has joined #html-wg 18:42:31 rubys has joined #html-wg 18:44:15 drunknbass_work has joined #html-wg 18:47:01 rubys1 has joined #html-wg 18:51:50 rubys1 has left #html-wg 19:00:14 rubys has joined #html-wg 19:10:54 timbl has joined #html-wg 19:19:07 annevk has joined #html-wg 19:30:46 plh has joined #html-wg 20:00:13 noahm has joined #html-wg 20:00:21 Michelangelo has joined #HTML-WG 20:45:33 aroben has left #html-wg 21:05:47 plh has joined #html-wg 21:07:43 timbl has joined #html-wg 21:08:30 hober has left #html-wg 21:09:10 hober has joined #html-wg 21:14:51 ROBOd has joined #html-wg 21:16:29 timbl__ has joined #html-wg 21:24:11 timbl has joined #html-wg 22:19:50 timbl has joined #html-wg 23:12:15 timbl has joined #html-wg 23:40:29 Lachy has joined #html-wg 00:19:25 when firefox 3.5 requests an image from an IMG SRC included in an html doc, the browser sends image/png,image/*;q=0.8,*/*;q=0.5 00:19:43 I wonder what IE, Opera and Safari do 00:19:55 Value of Accept: 01:09:04 tH has joined #html-wg 01:20:04 tH has joined #html-wg 01:27:15 mjs has joined #html-wg 02:24:12 timely has joined #html-wg 02:28:10 drry has joined #HTML-WG 02:38:58 krijnh has joined #html-wg 02:53:23 drry has joined #HTML-WG 03:55:00 timbl has joined #html-wg 06:52:08 shepazu has joined #html-wg 08:37:34 Michelangelo has joined #HTML-WG 08:41:44 MikeSmith has joined #html-wg 09:44:36 MikeSmith has joined #html-wg 09:57:51 tH has joined #html-wg 10:15:19 ROBOd has joined #html-wg 10:27:14 MikeSmith has joined #html-wg 10:34:32 hsivonen has joined #html-wg 11:00:53 hsivonen has joined #html-wg 11:06:14 hsivonen has joined #html-wg 11:14:51 bugmail: [Bug 8252] HTTP caching rules are _ignored_? What the hell? What's wrong with extending Cache-Control to support user-agent caching instead of coming up with an entirely new mechanism? <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0113.html> 11:42:03 ROBOd2 has joined #html-wg 11:44:59 bugmail: [Bug 8241] Named properties on window <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0114.html> 11:56:10 J_Voracek has joined #html-wg 12:11:59 Lachy has joined #html-wg 12:30:12 kunter has joined #html-wg 12:44:25 taf2 has joined #html-wg 12:45:16 bugmail: [Bug 8260] New: The name apparently must be compared in an ASCII case-insensitive manner, even though it is guaranteed to already be all ASCII lowercase from the tokenizer. It would make more sense to compare it case-sensitively (like it is earlier in the "initial" mode) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0116.html> 4** [Bug 8259] New: There is one case of "The public identifier is set to" in amongst all the "The 12:48:47 action-133: see James Craig message at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2009OctDec/0026.html 12:48:47 ACTION-133 Develop an accessibility API and model for canvas as well as attributes to specify alternative content notes added 12:48:48 Title: canvas accessibility: faked "shadow DOM" proof of concept from James Craig on 2009-11-09 (public-canvas-api@w3.org from October to December 2009) (at lists.w3.org) 12:50:07 action-133: faked "shadow DOM" proof concept from James Craig - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2009OctDec/att-0026/canvas_fake_shadow_dom.zip 12:50:07 ACTION-133 Develop an accessibility API and model for canvas as well as attributes to specify alternative content notes added 12:52:45 action-133? 12:52:45 ACTION-133 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to develop an accessibility API and model for canvas as well as attributes to specify alternative content -- due 2009-12-17 -- OPEN 12:52:45 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/133 12:52:46 Title: ACTION-133 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org) 13:06:34 noahm has joined #html-wg 13:52:49 http://css-tricks.com/examples/CleanCode/Beautiful-HTML.png 13:53:00 Visualization of HTML 5 features 13:53:14 and we have things to talk about it :) 13:58:42 in the Beautiful HTML example, jquery should probably be at the top as defer/async in the HTML5 world 14:31:44 yes, nevertheless, this has became a common practice among savvy designers to bring the payload "after" the page was constructed for good reasons 14:31:44 aroben has joined #html-wg 14:34:07 only if the browsers were capable of arranging the order of downloads according to modern time needs, where almost every page, now, needs extensive client-side programming libraries for the user interaction, such decelerations could be made where they are supposed to be 14:42:50 MikeSmith has joined #html-wg 15:15:54 bugmail: [Bug 8263] New: "dimenson" should be "dimension" <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0119.html> 4** [Bug 8261] New: "The name is set to anything other than "HTML"." - s/HTML/html/ [sp] <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0118.html> 4** [Bug 8259] There is one case of "The public identifier is set to" in amongst all the "The public identifier starts with". This seems like someth 15:19:53 timbl has joined #html-wg 16:46:57 kunter has joined #html-wg 17:29:04 MikeSmith has joined #html-wg 18:28:15 drunknbass_work has joined #html-wg 18:48:50 ROBOd has joined #html-wg 19:13:43 gsnedders has joined #html-wg 19:26:32 arronei has joined #html-wg 19:34:12 Lachy has joined #html-wg 19:39:41 Dashiva has joined #html-wg 21:08:51 timbl has joined #html-wg 21:17:30 bugmail: [Bug 8264] New: Fix terminology for "resource", "representation", "retrieval" <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0120.html> 21:24:38 shepazu has joined #html-wg 21:47:37 bugmail: [Bug 8266] New: I would like to suggest that the id attribute should be allowed to start with characters 0-9 <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0121.html> 21:58:02 Michelangelo has joined #HTML-WG 22:21:33 Michelangelo has joined #HTML-WG 22:55:22 mjs has joined #html-wg 22:57:39 mjs_ has joined #html-wg 23:08:27 plh has joined #html-wg 23:17:57 bugmail: [Bug 8267] New: the test link (http://ms2ger.freehostia.com/tests/html5/dynamic-markup-insertion/document.open.xhtml) is broken <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0122.html> 23:23:56 MikeSmith has joined #html-wg 00:01:42 mjs has joined #html-wg 00:25:51 timbl has joined #html-wg 03:02:16 MikeSmith has joined #html-wg 03:23:19 arronei has joined #html-wg 03:51:49 timbl has joined #html-wg 04:11:48 mjs_ has joined #html-wg 04:15:41 gavin has joined #html-wg 04:19:14 bugmail: [Bug 8268] XMLHttpRequest fails for documents with named entities due to doctype <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0124.html> 4** [Bug 8268] New: XMLHttpRequest fails for documents with named entities due to doctype <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0123.html> 04:22:42 mjs has joined #html-wg 04:49:29 shepazu has joined #html-wg 04:52:48 MikeSmith has joined #html-wg 05:05:03 laplink has joined #html-wg 05:19:28 bugmail: [Bug 8264] Fix terminology for "resource", "representation", "retrieval" <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0125.html> 05:21:50 @bugmail 05:21:51 MikeSmith: [Bug 8264] Fix terminology for "resource", "representation", "retrieval" <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0125.html> 4** [Bug 8268] XMLHttpRequest fails for documents with named entities due to doctype <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0124.html> 4** [Bug 8268] New: XMLHttpRequest fails for documents with named entities due to (50 more messages) 05:23:32 hmm, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0124.html doesn't show up at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Nov/ yet 05:23:33 Title: [Bug 8268] XMLHttpRequest fails for documents with named entities due to doctype from bugzillawiggum.w3.org on 2009-11-12 (public-html-bugzilla@w3.org from November 2009) (at lists.w3.org) 06:19:42 bugmail: [Bug 8266] I would like to suggest that the id attribute should be allowed to start with characters 0-9 <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0126.html> 07:39:08 noahm has joined #html-wg 07:54:39 mjs has joined #html-wg 07:59:03 laplink has joined #html-wg 08:09:20 tlr has joined #html-wg 08:20:15 bugmail: [Bug 8268] XMLHttpRequest fails for documents with named entities due to doctype <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0127.html> 08:22:37 gavin has joined #html-wg 08:25:55 kunter has joined #html-wg 09:14:43 118264: masinter@adobe.com, P1, NEW, 13Fix terminology for "resource", "representation", "retrieval" 09:18:13 hsivonen: I just changed it back to editorial 09:20:32 bugmail: [Bug 8264] Fix terminology for "resource", "representation", "retrieval" <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0128.html> 09:28:51 MikeSmith: ok 09:32:12 actually, NE means controversial 09:32:20 which it arguably is 09:37:22 true, in practice that's pretty much what we want to actually track 09:37:45 (that is, whether a bug is (potentially) controversial or not) 10:06:01 ROBOd has joined #html-wg 10:26:55 didn't someone else file a bug along the same lines? 10:35:49 mjs: yeah 10:36:16 I'm not sure if they are duplicates exactly but they should at least be cross-referenced 10:37:46 I think we already moved that other to resolved-wontfix and escalated to tracker 10:38:16 @bug 7687 10:38:17 MikeSmith: 11http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7687 nikunj.mehta@oracle.com, P2, RESOLVED WONTFIX, 13Use "representation" instead of "resource" in �6.9 10:38:43 issue-81? 10:38:43 ISSUE-81 -- Offline Web Applications section should use the term "representation" instead of "resource" -- RAISED 10:38:43 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/81 10:38:44 Title: ISSUE-81 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org) 10:39:33 issue-81: see also http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8264 10:39:33 ISSUE-81 Offline Web Applications section should use the term "representation" instead of "resource" notes added 10:39:34 118264: masinter@adobe.com, P1, NEW, 13Fix terminology for "resource", "representation", "retrieval" 10:50:56 bugmail: "[Bug 8264] Fix terminology for "resource", "representation", "retrieval"" (3 messages in thread) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0130.html> 11:02:59 Lachy has joined #html-wg 11:03:13 laplink has joined #html-wg 11:15:18 trackbot has joined #html-wg 11:18:41 timbl has joined #html-wg 11:29:23 Lachy has joined #html-wg 11:31:58 tlr has joined #html-wg 11:35:16 Michelangelo has joined #HTML-WG 11:37:38 myakura has joined #html-wg 11:37:50 Do you think the w3.org website is going to be HTML5 and strip the mark-up from"" 11:37:54 before the recommendation date? 11:41:22 I think it would take another huge effort to forget about the "backward compatibility concerns" beyond some point 11:43:59 something, the standards organization(s) will have to agree with at someday - like re-modeling of the protocols for a next-gen clean start 11:44:16 kunter: that was XHTML2 11:44:50 I was predicting this answer, and literally XHTML2 is vague atm 11:44:58 as for the W3C site switching to HTML5, it would require a sweeping change of attitude 11:52:37 right now the W3C is not even willing to publish the HTML5 spec as HTML5 12:08:40 taf2 has joined #html-wg 13:02:05 plh has joined #html-wg 13:09:37 MikeSmith has joined #html-wg 13:58:59 anne has joined #html-wg 14:19:18 action-131? 14:19:18 ACTION-131 -- Steve Faulkner to draft ALT spec -- due 2009-11-14 -- OPEN 14:19:18 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/131 14:19:19 Title: ACTION-131 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org) 14:19:33 action-138? 14:19:33 ACTION-138 -- Steve Faulkner to produce a matrix based on Henri's work -- due 2009-10-08 -- OPEN 14:19:33 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/138 14:19:34 Title: ACTION-138 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org) 14:19:51 action-133? 14:19:51 ACTION-133 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to develop an accessibility API and model for canvas as well as attributes to specify alternative content -- due 2009-12-17 -- OPEN 14:19:51 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/133 14:19:52 Title: ACTION-133 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org) 14:31:31 Michelangelo has joined #HTML-WG 14:44:33 plh has joined #html-wg 15:09:30 MikeSmith has joined #html-wg 15:17:39 aroben has joined #html-wg 15:22:02 bugmail: [Bug 8268] XMLHttpRequest fails for documents with named entities due to doctype <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0131.html> 15:22:48 gavin has joined #html-wg 15:25:24 jmb has joined #html-wg 15:48:33 jmb has joined #html-wg 15:52:09 bugmail: "[Bug 8268] XMLHttpRequest fails for documents with named entities due to doctype" (4 messages in thread) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0134.html> 16:08:47 timbl has joined #html-wg 16:16:45 laplink has joined #html-wg 16:22:17 bugmail: "[Bug 8268] XMLHttpRequest fails for documents with named entities due to doctype" (6 messages in thread) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0136.html> 16:47:25 paulc has joined #html-wg 16:47:50 No meeting today (Thu Nov 12). 16:49:04 See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2009OctDec/0014.html 16:49:05 Title: No HTML WG telecon this week (Nov 13, 2009) from Maciej Stachowiak on 2009-11-12 (public-html-wg-announce@w3.org from October to December 2009) (at lists.w3.org) 17:02:37 No meeting today (Thu Nov 12). 17:02:51 See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2009OctDec/0014.html 17:02:52 Title: No HTML WG telecon this week (Nov 13, 2009) from Maciej Stachowiak on 2009-11-12 (public-html-wg-announce@w3.org from October to December 2009) (at lists.w3.org) 17:21:32 Laura has joined #html-wg 17:38:46 Lachy has joined #html-wg 17:50:48 laplink has joined #html-wg 18:27:34 mjs_ has joined #html-wg 18:34:05 drunknbass_work has joined #html-wg 18:39:49 jmb has joined #html-wg 18:51:51 Michelangelo has joined #HTML-WG 19:35:20 ROBOd has joined #html-wg 19:47:43 Laura has joined #html-wg 20:21:09 action-131? 20:21:09 ACTION-131 -- Steve Faulkner to draft ALT spec -- due 2009-11-14 -- OPEN 20:21:09 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/131 20:21:10 Title: ACTION-131 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org) 20:56:36 MarcoAchury has joined #html-wg 21:23:29 bugmail: [Bug 8267] the test link (http://ms2ger.freehostia.com/tests/html5/dynamic-markup-insertion/document.open.xhtml) is broken <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0137.html> 21:46:33 arronei has joined #html-wg 21:49:11 arronei has joined #html-wg 22:05:14 timbl has joined #html-wg 22:09:17 tH has joined #html-wg 22:31:55 MarcoAchury has joined #html-wg 22:32:47 MarcoAchury has left #html-wg 22:53:07 mjs has joined #html-wg 23:02:06 mjs_ has joined #html-wg 23:03:24 mjs__ has joined #html-wg 00:05:20 jmb has joined #html-wg 00:06:49 tH has joined #html-wg 00:11:41 krijnh has joined #html-wg 00:29:30 taf2 has joined #html-wg 01:18:17 gavin has joined #html-wg 01:56:36 changes: hixie: Nuke history.clearState() since it was confusingly specced and its use cases were unclear. (whatwg r4375) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Nov/0000.html> 03:42:06 gavin has joined #html-wg 04:27:14 bugmail: [Bug 8272] New: why not make the heading information compulsory for the Section element ?? In a loose implementation like the current one, the Section element is acting just like a Div element but which lacks backward compatibility. <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0138.html> 05:00:56 MikeSmith has joined #html-wg 05:01:44 gavin has joined #html-wg 05:58:14 timbl_ has joined #html-wg 06:02:48 timbl has joined #html-wg 06:06:12 timbl has joined #html-wg 06:26:41 http://arstechnica.com/web/news/2009/11/spdy-google-wants-to-speed-up-the-web-by-ditching-http.ars?utm_source=microblogging&utm_medium=arstch&utm_term=Main%20Account&utm_campaign=microblogging 06:26:43 Title: SPDY: Google wants to speed up the web by ditching HTTP - Ars Technica (at arstechnica.com) 07:33:29 tlr has joined #html-wg 07:41:14 gavin has joined #html-wg 08:10:37 jmb has joined #html-wg 09:39:43 ROBOd has joined #html-wg 10:00:20 gavin has joined #html-wg 10:44:45 Lachy has joined #html-wg 10:44:53 Lachy has joined #html-wg 11:08:53 Michelangelo has joined #HTML-WG 11:31:16 shepazu has joined #html-wg 11:37:55 Dashiva: Seems like Google is quite fond of the idea of reimplementing the entire web for the sole purpose of making Google's sites faster 11:42:29 "HTTP "pipelining" doesn't help, as [...] in addition, many proxies apparently have poor support for pipelining." 11:42:46 compared to their great support for protocols that don't even exist 11:42:52 Eggsactly 11:43:20 (They have a better point about how the pipeline can be blocked by a slow early response, though) 11:43:51 (so it would be better if responses could be reordered) 11:44:09 cue suggesting new CSS features because IE doesn't support the existing CSS features 11:46:19 "Caching: Since we're proposing to do almost everything over an encrypted channel, we're making caching either difficult or impossible." - that sounds great for a protocol that is designed for performance 12:08:33 kunter has joined #html-wg 12:26:50 gavin has joined #html-wg 13:32:05 plh has joined #html-wg 13:40:36 noahm has joined #html-wg 14:43:45 aroben has joined #html-wg 14:57:29 annevk has joined #html-wg 14:59:48 bugmail: [Bug 8278] New: why can't the frame number be requested? It's video, position is expressed in frames, not in seconds. a frames per second value could easily convert this to seconds <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0139.html> 15:16:42 myakura has joined #html-wg 15:26:01 gavin has joined #html-wg 15:46:58 Julian has joined #html-wg 17:25:04 sbublava has joined #html-wg 17:55:45 gavin has joined #html-wg 17:59:55 plh has joined #html-wg 18:54:08 Lachy has joined #html-wg 19:23:36 noahm has joined #html-wg 19:43:32 ahmedawy has joined #html-wg 19:45:12 ahmedawy has left #html-wg 19:46:12 takkaria has left #html-wg 20:06:59 gavin has joined #html-wg 20:13:11 kunter has joined #html-wg 20:15:44 kunter has joined #HTML-wg 21:43:45 Lachy has joined #html-wg 21:53:48 arronei has joined #html-wg 22:02:04 plh has joined #html-wg 22:25:55 gavin has joined #html-wg 00:54:19 gavin has joined #html-wg 06:35:26 myakura has joined #html-wg 07:03:39 bugmail: [Bug 8307] New: It would be nice if there were a way to draw an image with a color key. The only other way I can think of doing this is by a for loop and pixel by pixel copying... which probably isn't fast <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0140.html> 08:05:05 myakura has joined #html-wg 09:21:37 Julian has joined #html-wg 09:42:22 annevk has joined #html-wg 09:44:20 Lachy has joined #html-wg 09:50:20 ROBOd has joined #html-wg 10:41:52 Michelangelo has joined #HTML-WG 11:52:03 Dashimon has joined #html-wg 15:57:34 Michelangelo has joined #HTML-WG 16:43:55 kunter has joined #html-wg 18:54:39 krijnh has joined #html-wg 20:55:41 krijnh has joined #html-wg 21:37:21 J_Voracek has joined #html-wg 23:20:17 krijnh has joined #html-wg 01:21:38 Dashiva has joined #html-wg 03:55:22 pimpbot has joined #html-wg 04:01:05 pimpbot has joined #html-wg 04:01:06 phenny has joined #html-wg 04:01:22 johndrinkwater has joined #html-wg 04:48:09 jmb has joined #html-wg 05:14:54 jmb has joined #html-wg 05:40:39 jmb has joined #html-wg 08:08:43 arronei has joined #html-wg 08:13:13 jmb has joined #html-wg 08:47:45 jmb has joined #html-wg 09:10:03 jmb has joined #html-wg 09:22:11 jmb has joined #html-wg 09:24:38 Julian has joined #html-wg 09:29:53 jmb has joined #html-wg 09:41:39 ROBOd has joined #html-wg 09:52:19 annevk has joined #html-wg 10:19:51 jmb has joined #html-wg 10:35:24 jmb has joined #html-wg 10:51:54 jmb has joined #html-wg 11:26:27 jmb has joined #html-wg 11:41:44 jmb has joined #html-wg 11:42:43 Michelangelo has joined #HTML-WG 11:58:21 jmb has joined #html-wg 12:30:18 myakura has joined #html-wg 12:57:11 jmb has joined #html-wg 14:23:35 tlr has joined #html-wg 14:34:53 Alkarex has joined #html-wg 14:37:25 jmb has joined #html-wg 15:04:16 jmb has joined #html-wg 15:13:02 jmb has joined #html-wg 15:24:51 jmb has joined #html-wg 15:51:15 annevk has joined #html-wg 16:09:56 jmb has joined #html-wg 16:22:49 jmb has joined #html-wg 16:30:28 jmb has joined #html-wg 16:39:19 tlr has joined #html-wg 17:00:37 jmb has joined #html-wg 17:27:12 jmb has joined #html-wg 17:43:39 jmb has joined #html-wg 18:23:54 jmb has joined #html-wg 19:00:38 kunter has joined #html-wg 19:16:47 karl has joined #html-wg 20:16:38 jmb has joined #html-wg 20:27:09 jmb has joined #html-wg 20:57:33 Alkarex has left #html-wg 21:05:11 jmb has joined #html-wg 21:13:47 jmb has joined #html-wg 21:55:33 jmb has joined #html-wg 22:38:47 jmb has joined #html-wg 22:43:51 bugmail: [Bug 8309] New: semantics of footnotes : why not using
elements as well? <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0141.html> 22:46:39 Zeros has joined #html-wg 23:06:16 jmb has joined #html-wg 23:13:59 bugmail: [Bug 7475] Semantics of rel=first and rel=index breaks specs and implementations <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0142.html> 23:16:43 jmb has joined #html-wg 23:37:31 karl has joined #html-wg 00:02:42 Dashimon has joined #html-wg 00:03:10 Hixie has joined #html-wg 00:17:06 jmb has joined #html-wg 00:44:20 bugmail: [Bug 8310] New: script block's source initialization: please honor the specified charset and type <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0143.html> 01:24:15 jmb has joined #html-wg 01:54:15 jmb has joined #html-wg 02:14:40 jmb has joined #html-wg 02:30:39 jmb has joined #html-wg 03:06:03 jmb has joined #html-wg 03:37:43 jmb has joined #html-wg 03:44:58 bugmail: [Bug 8311] New: Typo error in algorithm to calculate ratios 2.4.4.4 <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0144.html> 03:46:02 jmb has joined #html-wg 04:09:51 jmb has joined #html-wg 04:15:12 bugmail: [Bug 8311] Typo error in algorithm to calculate ratios 2.4.4.4 <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0145.html> 04:31:35 jmb has joined #html-wg 04:47:50 jmb has joined #html-wg 05:13:56 jmb has joined #html-wg 05:15:28 bugmail: [Bug 8309] semantics of footnotes : why not using
elements as well? <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0147.html> 4** [Bug 8310] script block's source initialization: please honor the specified charset and type <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0146.html> 06:36:46 MikeSmith has joined #html-wg 06:51:44 tlr has joined #html-wg 06:54:09 jmb has joined #html-wg 07:07:55 jmb has joined #html-wg 08:16:54 arronei has joined #html-wg 09:26:27 krijnh has joined #html-wg 09:26:40 Julian has joined #html-wg 09:39:07 krijnh has joined #html-wg 09:40:17 ROBOd has joined #html-wg 09:42:42 str2005 has joined #html-wg 09:43:20 krijnh has joined #html-wg 09:43:32 str2005 has left #html-wg 09:49:44 krijnh has joined #html-wg 10:07:05 annevk has joined #html-wg 10:11:58 krijnh has joined #html-wg 10:14:17 kunter has joined #html-wg 10:21:27 jmb has joined #html-wg 10:55:52
tH has joined #html-wg 11:06:53 Lachy has joined #html-wg 11:44:53 hsivonen has joined #html-wg 12:09:39 annevk has joined #html-wg 12:24:21 myakura has joined #html-wg 12:42:40 Lachy_ has joined #html-wg 13:02:09 plh has joined #html-wg 13:24:03 tH has joined #html-wg 13:59:06 tH has joined #html-wg 14:17:38 bugmail: [Bug 8313] New: The case for U+003E (">") is redundant here, as it'll be processed in the same way in "anything else". <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0148.html> 14:48:36 krijnh has joined #html-wg 14:58:53 krijnh has joined #html-wg 15:14:59 krijnh has joined #html-wg 15:17:51 bugmail: [Bug 8314] New: the
as in your example does not pass validation. it says that dd is not allowed in this format. <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0149.html> 15:19:46 krijnh has joined #html-wg 15:26:44 krijnh has joined #html-wg 15:47:58 bugmail: [Bug 8314] the
as in your example does not pass validation. it says that dd is not allowed in this format. <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0150.html> 16:04:07 matt has joined #html-wg 17:26:06 Lachy has joined #html-wg 17:31:21 krijnh has joined #html-wg