SV_MEETING_TITLE -- 02 Nov 2009

<andrew> Agenda

Topic: Involving Users

Shawn: Provides background and explains intent of the document, how it expands on involving users in evaluation to involving users with disabilities in the entire web development process.

http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/involving/

Shawn: Look at overview and specifc wording issues, titles

<scribe> ACTION: Including Users - fix title [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/02-eo-minutes.html#action01]

Discussion of audience, is document broad enough to appeal to identified group?

<scribe> ACTION: Including Users - take editorial pass at broadening language to include developers of applications, browsers etc. Then another pass to ensure that it message was not diluted [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/02-eo-minutes.html#action02]

<shawn> ACTION: Including Users - take an edit pass to make sure it applies to tool developers, stds developers, etc. - then make sure it's not watered down or for the website developer. if leave -- probably then put something clear up front that this applies to these others [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/02-eo-minutes.html#action03]

Suzette: introduces discussion of formative vs summative methods.

<shawn> shadi: Efficiency, effective ness, motivation not say clearly "understanding"

Helle: various perspectives should be considered even before story boarding, in procurement process.
... even part of setting up business case, compliance requirements

<shawn> question: is this when to involve considerations for accessibility, or, including real, live users in the process

Shawn: Is document about including considerations or including real live users?

Andrew: Some consideration of the needs of PWD in general is needed before user testing will be effective.

<scribe> ACTION: Including Users - Clarify in scope that focus is real live users but point to references that say more about general consideration of accessibility earlier. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/02-eo-minutes.html#action04]

Jennifer: Numbered definitions could perhaps address the need for glossary definitions to be different depending on audience.

Shadi: Could reduce definitions to one - user characteristics.

<shawn> from users' perspective, better to have on this page?

Shadi: Can you find a generalized definition that will satisfy all situations?

<shawn> idea: WAI glossary becomes the user friendly version, then points to def in WCAG or recent std

<andrew> more definitions exist in http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/PWD-Use-Web/2009/#tools

Shawn: Suggestion now on the table is to make the WAI glossary the user friendly version rather than the definitive formal version, then pull definitions as needed into printed pages or onscreen display.
... add adaptive strategies, web content, assistive technology, user characteristics.

Shadi: Formal definition would be WCAG and WAI would link to that or other recent formal definitions

<shawn> ACTION: authorized translation policy - look at not saying have to translation "WAI Glossary" first [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/02-eo-minutes.html#action05]

<shawn> ACTION: shawn - when glossary done, look at changing pointers to definitions in Involving Users to the glossary [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/02-eo-minutes.html#action06]

Shawn: Group ready for section by section review? When we come back from break, will do that.

<shawn> work

<shawn> thanks Ted!

<scribe> ACTION: Including Users - start with Paragraph 2 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/02-eo-minutes.html#action07]

<scribe> ACTION: Including users - consider following with a list of applications, browsers, software, etc [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/02-eo-minutes.html#action08]

<scribe> ACTION: Including Users - delete negative connotation of "However, most developers..." [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/02-eo-minutes.html#action09]

Suzette: Need somewhere to emphasize develop of relationships, etc

<scribe> ACTION: remove (or change) example 2 in How Involving Users Early Helps [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/02-eo-minutes.html#action10]

<shawn> positive examples

<shawn> case studies to support "involving Users Early helps"

<shawn> "How Involving Users Early Helps" - maybe <h3>s for Helps Developers Makes More (Usable) Accessible for pwds

<shawn> (efficiency, effectiveness, motivation triggers usability terminology - not good)

<shawn> maybe heading or at least focus is UNDERSTANDING

<scribe> ACTION: Change heading titles to something like "benefits to developers" and "Benefits to end users" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/02-eo-minutes.html#action11]

<scribe> ACTION: Including Users - after rewrite, consider update to examples [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/02-eo-minutes.html#action12]

<scribe> ACTION: Including Users - consider benefits to owner as well as developer and user [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/02-eo-minutes.html#action13]

<glaser> andrew

<scribe> ACTION: Including Users - change "Combine Users with Standards" to some thing like "How this relates to standards" - maybe leave Combine , e.g., Combine User Involvement... [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/02-eo-minutes.html#action14]

we wave back

<shawn> telecon is working. we'll be online for about 20 mins give ro take - the breaking for lunch...

<jenoe> zakim. cmsmcq is michael

<shawn> we're here: http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/involving/#diverse

<shawn> jennifer: also, don't want to make it look to hard, have to fgo the ir house etc.

<andrew> Andrew: interacting with PWD and older people - their place may be better; AT setup; 2 older people might be better than one - maybe link to another resource where this info exists

<andrew> goodnight michael - might se you tomorrow?

<jenoe> maybe in the early morning

<shawn> put things in one doc and point to it in the other

<shawn> ACTION: Involving Users - you can do a lot yourself, but sometimes you might need to bring in help [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/02-eo-minutes.html#action15]

<shawn> ACTION: Involving Users - moVe "analyzing Accessibility Issues" from one doc to to other (to eval one) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/02-eo-minutes.html#action16]

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to look at open issues list and to say can we delete anything

<shawn> accommodation - think have covered

<shawn> ethics - e.g., can withdrawal

<scribe> ACTION: Suzette to draft brief statement about ethics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/02-eo-minutes.html#action17]

<scribe> ACTION: Involving Users - draft pointers for ethics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/02-eo-minutes.html#action18]

<andrew> ACTION: involving - andrew to research some pointers on ethics and working with users (to be used with Suzette's #17) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/02-eo-minutes.html#action19]

<andrew> diverse abilities

<andrew> special requirements

<scribe> ACTION: Move to the front the fact that including people with disabilities (and older users) gets you usability for free. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/02-eo-minutes.html#action20]

<shawn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/involving/new-users-eval

<shawn> check for big things an fix them first

<shawn> ACTION: Involving Users Eval - chagen "Preliminary Review" to more casual and include repair big, obvious things (also, refine what to have pwds focus on) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/02-eo-minutes.html#action21]

<shawn> ACTION: Involving Users Eval - change "Preliminary Review" section - maybe say something about it helps to focus your efforts with users [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/02-eo-minutes.html#action22]

<shawn> planning

<shawn> ACTION: Involving Users Eval - check what would be involved in broadening it to tools, etc. - if not too much work [maybe as an additional note] [and, look at how its done in companion doc] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/02-eo-minutes.html#action23]

<scribe> ACTION: Caution should be repeated in both documents. Harmonizes with "get usability for free" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/02-eo-minutes.html#action24]

<scribe> ACTION: Involving Users Eval - look at putting together accessibility issues and drawing conclusions and separating out reporting. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/02-eo-minutes.html#action25]

Shadi: Not to draw hasty conclusions.

Shawn: caution against testing with one disability groups and extrapolating to all users with disabilities.

<andrew> suzette: not to over extrapolate from the results in front of you

<andrew> andrew: you have observations, not statistically significant tests

<shawn> primary audience would take the results and enter it in the changelog

<scribe> ACTION: Involving Users Eval - Move reporting within "professionals" section and perhaps editing. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/02-eo-minutes.html#action26]

Shawn: Want to look at titles and references of both documents.

Suggestion

Suzette - Involving Users in Web Development - [Achieving] Better Easier Accessibility

<shawn> Involving Users in Web Design and Development for Better Easier Accessibility

<shawn> Involving Users in Web Design and Development for Better, Easier Accessibility

<shawn> Involving Users in Web Accessibility Evaluation

<shawn> Involving Users in Evaluating Web Accessibility

<andrew> suzette: ... to improve accessibility

<shawn> note - title - we really want to get reluctant readers to read this - thus "better & easier"

<shawn> ACTION: Shawn & Andrew research other good references for Involving Users [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/02-eo-minutes.html#action27]

<shawn> NEW TOPIC "Improving Your Web Experience with Adaptive Strategies "

<shawn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/adaptive/strategies.html

Andrew: seeing where to click, focus on pages

<andrew> ACTION: Enjoyable - mouse use - seeing where to click (ref back to enlarging links, form elements, etc) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/02-eo-minutes.html#action28]

<shawn> "things your granny can do" versus things she'll need help with

Suzette: felt a need for a rating scale to indicate those things that users may be able to do for themselves and those things for which they are likely to need help.

<scribe> ACTION: Andrew research effort on changing DPI setting [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/02-eo-minutes.html#action29]

<andrew> suzette: dpi settings can make a difference, in addition to screen resolution

<shawn> maybe"decrease the resolution of your display" ->"des crease the resolution/dpi of your display

<shawn> "change the resolution/dpi of your display"

<shadi> ACTION: shadi to check on wording for resolution versus DPI settings [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/02-eo-minutes.html#action30]

<andrew> ACTION: Enjoyable - capture that resolution is affected by three changes under windows - resolution, DPI, accessibility [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/02-eo-minutes.html#action31]

<shawn> jack; tell them how to do the easy things

<shawn> then point to the harder things

<suzette> http://accessibar.mozdev.org/ is tool bar to adjust colours , fonts etc

<andrew> ACTION: Enjoyable - introduction - some solutions/steps may need advanced techniques [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/02-eo-minutes.html#action32]

<shawn> jennifer: "hardware & software" works - "tool" not so much

<andrew> ACTION: Enjoyable - consider marking some techniques and/or refs as medium/advanced level of difficulty [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/02-eo-minutes.html#action33]

<andrew> andrew: consider training as an option under 'explore your computer system'

- DRAFT -

EOWF Face to Face meeting

02 Nov 2009

Attendees

Contents

Summary of Action Items

Scribe.perl diagnostic output