IRC log of svg on 2009-09-26
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 17:09:17 [RRSAgent]
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- logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/09/26-svg-irc
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- RRSAgent, make logs public
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- 17:09:21 [trackbot]
- Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
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- I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
- 17:09:22 [trackbot]
- Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
- 17:09:22 [trackbot]
- Date: 26 September 2009
- 17:09:40 [heycam]
- Zakim, remind me in 8 hours to raid the fridge
- 17:09:40 [Zakim]
- ok, heycam
- 17:10:20 [heycam]
- Meeting: Mountain View F2F 2009 Day 1
- 17:10:27 [heycam]
- Chair: Cameron
- 17:10:43 [anthony_with_mous]
- Scribe: Anthony
- 17:10:53 [anthony_with_mous]
- ScribeNick: anthony_with_moustache
- 17:11:00 [anthony_with_mous]
- Topic: XSL Report
- 17:11:24 [anthony_with_mous]
- CL: I went to the XSL F2F
- 17:11:29 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... was there for 2 days of the meeting
- 17:11:34 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... main topic of discussion was shapes
- 17:11:50 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... they want to have arbitrary shapes
- 17:11:56 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... or set of shapes
- 17:12:00 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... to any block
- 17:12:08 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... they have page masters then blocks
- 17:12:15 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... and the idea is to add shapes to the blocks
- 17:12:26 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... and idea is the text would fit in the shape
- 17:12:29 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... then flow to the next shape
- 17:12:36 [anthony_with_mous]
- but text they mean anything
- 17:12:50 [anthony_with_mous]
- s/but/... by/
- 17:13:03 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... tables, lists
- 17:13:11 [heycam]
- RRSAgent, make minutes
- 17:13:11 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/26-svg-minutes.html heycam
- 17:13:19 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... then there are two add ons that make it a bit complicated
- 17:13:42 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... tri-tables
- 17:14:08 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... that allow adjustments by varying different properties
- 17:14:13 [heycam]
- ScribeNick: anthony_with_mous
- 17:14:23 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... and therefore the text fits with in the shape
- 17:14:27 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... and then there's shapes that grow
- 17:14:52 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... as the text gets bigger the shape gets bigger in the middle
- 17:15:06 [heycam]
- RRSAgent, make minutes
- 17:15:06 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/26-svg-minutes.html heycam
- 17:15:10 [anthony_with_mous]
- DS: It seems to me there's also another case that people want
- 17:15:21 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... the first is what you said - copy fitting
- 17:15:31 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... it's pretty common that people want to do copy fitting
- 17:15:42 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... where they want the text to grow to fit the size of the shape
- 17:16:17 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... if you want to have SVG boarders on a CSS block
- 17:16:25 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... we don't have any way in SVG saying make this part change
- 17:16:45 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... we don't have any way of stating the intentionality of the shape
- 17:16:55 [anthony_with_mous]
- AG: Is that still in scope with SVG?
- 17:17:37 [anthony_with_mous]
- DS: We could have essentially the pie shape, bars, but not by defining them as something with certain behaviours
- 17:17:50 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... but more so like the constraint stuff
- 17:18:05 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... if we have parts of the shape to grow to meet certain constraints
- 17:18:23 [ChrisL]
- notes from the text flowing into shape discussions http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Sep/0056.html
- 17:18:28 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... SVG wouldn't define a pie chart, they'd define things would grow
- 17:18:44 [anthony_with_mous]
- CL: I dropped a link in
- 17:18:52 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... and if you scroll down to the bottom
- 17:18:55 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... you'll see SMIL
- 17:19:07 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... Liam is wondering if you can use SMIL in XSL
- 17:19:20 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... I said not really
- 17:19:26 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... and suggested a subset of SMIL
- 17:19:49 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... the path animation to be exact
- 17:20:03 [anthony_with_mous]
- CM: What does path animation represent?
- 17:20:26 [anthony_with_mous]
- CL: The main difference here is you're not getting a change over time
- 17:20:48 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... it represents the shape you want
- 17:21:25 [anthony_with_mous]
- CM: The paper you're talking about growing shape to fit text
- 17:21:46 [ChrisL]
- hit the 'pdf' link from http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?doid=1166160.1166165
- 17:22:24 [anthony_with_mous]
- CL: In an XSL file the want to have some SVG
- 17:22:37 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... have some SVG because you want to draw it or use bits of it but don't want to draw
- 17:22:48 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... Liam was saying they have <defs> element
- 17:23:10 [jwatt]
- s/they have/SVG has/
- 17:24:57 [anthony_with_mous]
- CL: They'd like to point to gradients
- 17:25:04 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... and bits of SVG that's useful
- 17:25:19 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... they specifically mentioned doing stuff in Inkscape and dropping it in
- 17:25:34 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... I gave them an update on the fonts work
- 17:25:46 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... there's a public list www-font
- 17:25:56 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... and there's a lot of discussion about what do with web fonts
- 17:26:18 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... CSS and SVG give you the ability to the open type fonts
- 17:26:34 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... which is the same font format as the for sale fonts are sold as
- 17:27:07 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... in response to that there were two formats proposed
- 17:27:10 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... EOT format
- 17:27:19 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... form Microsoft
- 17:27:37 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... they have an embedded uri RootString
- 17:27:44 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... which people didn't like
- 17:27:51 [shepazu]
- s /EOT/EOT-lite
- 17:28:09 [shepazu]
- s/form/from
- 17:28:17 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... the next format was MTX from Agfa
- 17:29:35 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... it was objected on the grounds was compression libraries can have security problems
- 17:30:35 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... so there was case study where gcip was shown to be almost as good as MTX particularly with Unicode
- 17:30:52 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... as a result there was a proposal for a new font format
- 17:30:55 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... a web font format
- 17:31:03 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... re-encoding of open type fonts
- 17:31:21 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... it was proposed Jonathon Kew
- 17:31:40 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... it has a table of sizes and then individual Open Type table
- 17:31:47 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... that can be reference
- 17:31:59 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... if it's compressed it will say the size when uncompressed
- 17:32:02 [heycam]
- http://mcc.id.au/temp/p3-hurst.pdf -- that's nathan's paper
- 17:32:30 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... there's a specification available and an implementation
- 17:33:13 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... that converts both ways to and from open type
- 17:33:16 [jwatt]
- http://people.mozilla.com/~jkew/woff/woff-2009-09-16.html - that's Jonathan Kew's WOFF spec
- 17:33:28 [anthony_with_mous]
- DS: He's form SIL and he's interested in the international case
- 17:33:45 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... since he has the individual tables zipped
- 17:34:11 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... for someone in a place with limited bandwidth it's better then for them
- 17:34:27 [anthony_with_mous]
- ED: But there's still CPU and memory needed to decompress everything
- 17:34:55 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... so there may not be any benefit
- 17:35:18 [anthony_with_mous]
- CL: You can download the list tables initially to see which tables are needed
- 17:35:40 [anthony_with_mous]
- ED: There may not be a big benefit compared to having the whole thing zipped
- 17:35:52 [anthony_with_mous]
- CL: That format was originally called web OTF
- 17:36:03 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... there were questions by W3C could use the name
- 17:36:11 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... the 3rd draft is called WOFF
- 17:36:24 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... Web Open Font Format
- 17:37:14 [ed]
- s/ whole thing zipped/ whole thing zipped due to network latency/
- 17:39:53 [shepazu]
- s/EOT-lite/EOT
- 17:41:12 [anthony_with_mous]
- CL: There are for formats for doing downloadable fonts
- 17:41:25 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... SVG, WOFF, EOT, EOT-lite
- 17:41:29 [anthony_with_mous]
- DS: Five
- 17:41:34 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... OpenType
- 17:42:02 [anthony_with_mous]
- JW: So when you say OpenType you are including TrueType as well?
- 17:42:09 [anthony_with_mous]
- CL: Yes OpenType is a super set
- 17:43:04 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... my charter proposal will for the formats that are not standardised
- 17:44:11 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... The thing that people liked was to conform to the spec people would have to implement two of the formats
- 17:44:33 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... and the bit that I'm going to put in is you have to support either the CSS or an XML format
- 17:44:54 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... the reason that's interesting and I'm calling it the XML syntax and not SVG is because XSL want to use it
- 17:45:00 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... in there own name space
- 17:45:12 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... they plan to adopt that just as is
- 17:45:38 [anthony_with_mous]
- DS: Another reason to make the group is it gets commitment form the members to start using the format
- 17:46:25 [anthony_with_mous]
- CL: There were some font foundries that were saying we can have different licenses for the different formats
- 17:46:30 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... so they're happy
- 17:46:50 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... one thing with the SVG fonts is they can't do hinting and the internationalisation isn't there
- 17:47:12 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... one thing we could say for SVG 2.0 is we could say you'd have to support WOFF
- 17:47:32 [anthony_with_mous]
- CM: Just wondering if you can stick SVG inside something like OpenType
- 17:47:46 [anthony_with_mous]
- ... the glyph shapes in OpenType are like cubic beziers?
- 18:05:34 [anthony_with_mous]
- CL: There are constraints in OpenType fonts
- 18:05:52 [heycam]
- Scribe: Cameron
- 18:05:55 [heycam]
- ScribeNick: heycam
- 18:06:12 [heycam]
- CL: the xsl group is producing a thing called "design notes"
- 18:06:19 [ChrisL]
- http://www.w3.org/Style/XSL/Group/2009/03/FPWD-xsl-fo-20.html
- 18:06:42 [heycam]
- ... they had a piece about colour that was drawn from svg print
- 18:06:48 [heycam]
- ... and the only bit it really had was the device specific colour stuff
- 18:07:20 [shepazu]
- http://people.mozilla.com/~jkew/woff/woff-spec-latest.html
- 18:07:27 [heycam]
- ... they were getting ready to publish this, and almost about to publish
- 18:07:33 [heycam]
- ... i offered to rewrite the colour section
- 18:07:46 [ChrisL]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-xsl-fo-sg/2009Sep/0033.html
- 18:08:11 [heycam]
- ... i explained the differences between svg colour and svg print, the current state of things, and proposed wording which they agreed to
- 18:08:26 [heycam]
- ... so it's in the spec now
- 18:08:53 [heycam]
- ... i gave them some wording, assuming you adopt all features from svg color, which you would probably select from
- 18:09:15 [heycam]
- ... and i suggested some syntax that seemed to fit with their style
- 18:09:19 [heycam]
- ... and they accepted the proposal as is
- 18:09:33 [heycam]
- AG: so you always have to place an rgb falback
- 18:09:36 [heycam]
- CL: yes, srgb fallback
- 18:09:47 [heycam]
- ... some others wanted cmyk fallback, but we ended up with just srgb fallback
- 18:10:14 [heycam]
- CM: why is the "ICC" in capitals there?
- 18:10:25 [heycam]
- ... are xsl properties case sensitive?
- 18:10:27 [heycam]
- CL: yes they are
- 18:10:40 [heycam]
- ... i don't mind if they change that
- 18:13:37 [heycam]
- ... we got one piece of feedback on this
- 18:14:11 [heycam]
- ... in the design notes it says "Four new functions are added to support device-dependent color"
- 18:15:15 [heycam]
- ... the HP person wanted "device n channel" instead of "device multi channel"
- 18:16:09 [heycam]
- ... the other change he wanted was a uri or reference to a block of data, since that's the way they do it, of describing the colors in the printer
- 18:17:02 [heycam]
- ... we were vaguely aware that's what they did, but we didn't have concrete information
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- 19:23:51 [fat_tony]
- Scribe: Anthony
- 19:24:02 [fat_tony]
- ScribeNick: fat_tony
- 19:25:19 [fat_tony]
- Topic: SVG Fonts
- 19:25:35 [fat_tony]
- CM: Robert wonders what the use cases for SVG Fonts are
- 19:25:40 [fat_tony]
- CL: I sent a reply
- 19:25:45 [fat_tony]
- ... with a bunch of use cases
- 19:25:59 [fat_tony]
- ... and he replied to say that was useful
- 19:26:52 [fat_tony]
- CM: What I'd like to know is
- 19:27:10 [fat_tony]
- ... what features of SVG Fonts can you not with regular OpenType fonts are used
- 19:27:23 [fat_tony]
- ... and which of them are basically an abuse of SVG Fonts to get some nifty behaviour
- 19:27:43 [fat_tony]
- CL: The only abuse that I'm aware of is wishing SVG had a Y-Up coordinate system
- 19:28:08 [fat_tony]
- ED: I've seen people using fancy stroking for effects
- 19:28:40 [ed]
- ...using glyphs in svg fonts
- 19:28:52 [fat_tony]
- DS: Which ones are used?
- 19:29:00 [fat_tony]
- CM: Yes and which ones are not
- 19:29:06 [fat_tony]
- DS: Hard to know at this point
- 19:29:12 [fat_tony]
- ... because ASV supported them
- 19:29:16 [fat_tony]
- ... and it's older content
- 19:29:54 [fat_tony]
- ... I'd like to be able to use SVG Fonts for doing complex shapes for illuminated fonts
- 19:30:01 [fat_tony]
- CL: You can do RT stuff
- 19:30:11 [fat_tony]
- ... multi-coloured stuff
- 19:30:23 [fat_tony]
- ... anything you can draw you can make it into a glyph
- 19:30:29 [shepazu]
- http://www.alifetimeofcolor.com/study/images/illum_manuscript_l.jpg
- 19:30:52 [fat_tony]
- ... if you give people a way to draw pictures and wrap it as text
- 19:30:59 [shepazu]
- http://www.graphic-design.com/Type/caps/CapB.jpg
- 19:31:15 [fat_tony]
- ... people will eventually put pictures as text
- 19:31:50 [fat_tony]
- DS: [talks about second link]
- 19:32:15 [fat_tony]
- CM: What happens when you fill SVG Font text?
- 19:32:27 [fat_tony]
- CL: We added something specific for just the 'd' attribute
- 19:32:39 [fat_tony]
- DS: You mean for Tiny?
- 19:32:41 [fat_tony]
- CL: Yes
- 19:35:53 [fat_tony]
- ED: Say you wanted to fill what was specified in the 'd' attribute
- 19:35:59 [fat_tony]
- ... if you wanted to fill the path with something with full fonts you wouldn't be able to do that
- 19:36:29 [fat_tony]
- CL: Suppose you do a font like Jurassic Park your path on the outer thing with red bits
- 19:36:35 [fat_tony]
- ... and do that for loads of test
- 19:36:40 [fat_tony]
- s/test/text/
- 19:37:15 [fat_tony]
- ... for each occurrence of the character you have a hidden tree
- 19:37:25 [fat_tony]
- ... multiple copies of this arbitrary content
- 19:37:48 [fat_tony]
- ED: I'd suggest it inherits from document tree
- 19:37:54 [fat_tony]
- CL: So you mean like a current colour?
- 19:37:57 [fat_tony]
- ED: Similar
- 19:38:08 [fat_tony]
- ... the question is what properties you want there
- 19:38:10 [fat_tony]
- ... and applies
- 19:38:15 [fat_tony]
- CL: Colour
- 19:38:19 [fat_tony]
- ED: Fill, stroke
- 19:38:31 [fat_tony]
- ... that would be possible and would make it much simpler
- 19:39:40 [ChrisL]
- They tend to be used for short, decorative, one-off text strings. Kerning, glyph shapes may be modified for the one pieve of artwork.
- 19:39:40 [ChrisL]
- They can be used for less common languages.
- 19:39:40 [ChrisL]
- The glyphs don't have the same constraints that TT/OT glyphs have, in terms of placement of control points, winding rule, avoidance of overlap and self-intersection. They can mix cubics, quadratics, and straight line segments as needed.
- 19:39:40 [ChrisL]
- In other words, if you can draw it, you can make it a glyph. And the SVG engine can already render it because it already knows about paths, fill, stroke, opacity etc.
- 19:39:43 [ChrisL]
- Of course, the temptation is to just draw something which looks, visually, like text. SVG gives the option to make it real, searchable, accessible and updatable text, for very little more effort.
- 19:40:19 [fat_tony]
- ED: I guess it would be nice to style the colours in the text based on where they are used
- 19:40:48 [ChrisL]
- from dev-tech-svg@lists.mozilla.org
- 19:41:33 [fat_tony]
- CM: Some body to suggested to solve that use case
- 19:41:45 [fat_tony]
- ... you could stick an attribute on graphical content?
- 19:41:49 [fat_tony]
- CL: Why would do that?
- 19:41:55 [fat_tony]
- JW: I have a reason for not doing that
- 19:41:59 [fat_tony]
- ... is you can't select it
- 19:42:11 [fat_tony]
- ... what if I want to select one word out of three word heading?
- 19:42:20 [fat_tony]
- DS: You could essentially do it as a ligature
- 19:42:33 [fat_tony]
- JW: It makes it different to the rest of the text behaves
- 19:42:55 [fat_tony]
- CM: You could break it down into logical blocks, words, sections, letter
- 19:43:19 [fat_tony]
- JW: You can do it as separate words or text
- 19:43:26 [fat_tony]
- ... then you're saying this graphic is this word
- 19:43:34 [fat_tony]
- ... then how do you join them together
- 19:43:48 [fat_tony]
- ... so when you search for it, it is found
- 19:44:34 [fat_tony]
- DS: Logical and visual order can be abused even with regular text
- 19:44:54 [fat_tony]
- CL: I was remembering that Vincent Hardy asked what's the use case for all this SVG stuff
- 19:45:06 [fat_tony]
- ... why not use a single path
- 19:45:19 [fat_tony]
- ... he said unless we do it that way SVG will not be used
- 19:45:37 [fat_tony]
- ... his argument was persuasive
- 19:45:45 [fat_tony]
- ... then the guy from Kodak
- 19:46:13 [fat_tony]
- ... said we've got a use case that can only done in SVG and not in True Type
- 19:47:04 [fat_tony]
- ... after a while Vincent Hardy did see the use cases and started making content
- 19:49:47 [fat_tony]
- DS: [Draws diagram on board]
- 19:49:55 [fat_tony]
- ... you can't do that as an SVG font
- 19:50:01 [fat_tony]
- ED: Yes you can
- 19:50:11 [fat_tony]
- DS: This is something that is a one off thing
- 19:50:22 [fat_tony]
- ... and you don't want to spend the time and energy adjusting everything
- 19:50:25 [fat_tony]
- ... to get it readable
- 19:50:37 [fat_tony]
- CL: It would be work
- 19:50:39 [fat_tony]
- ... I agree
- 19:50:42 [fat_tony]
- ... but it could be done
- 19:52:10 [fat_tony]
- DS: My point is this is something you can not do with OpenType
- 19:52:34 [fat_tony]
- ... how is this different form a ligature
- 19:59:50 [anthony]
- JW: ROC is asking for give me the use cases
- 20:00:23 [fat_tony]
- CL: He's collecting the use cases
- 20:00:36 [fat_tony]
- ... and Alex D has chipped in with support
- 20:01:28 [fat_tony]
- JW: It's obvious for the use cases that the majority of them are catered for by WOFF
- 20:01:44 [fat_tony]
- ... ROC just wants to know have we pretty much covered all the cases that people want to handle
- 20:02:09 [fat_tony]
- ... and whether it should be put as a priority
- 20:03:04 [fat_tony]
- ... That's what I'd like to hear is the use cases
- 20:03:13 [fat_tony]
- ... you have all this power to make anything a glyph
- 20:03:43 [ChrisL]
- typography teaching with serifs, verticals
- 20:03:43 [fat_tony]
- ... but I want to see why people want to do things that can't be do in WOFF or OpenType
- 20:04:02 [ChrisL]
- glyphs with icicles in blue-and-white, with font whatever color is wanted
- 20:04:11 [ChrisL]
- nimated drawing fonts for chinese
- 20:04:22 [fat_tony]
- DS: I want to do a header and it has blue with icicles
- 20:04:27 [ChrisL]
- scripted distressed fonts
- 20:04:31 [fat_tony]
- JW: I think we should try and collect a page
- 20:04:35 [fat_tony]
- ... with graphical examples
- 20:04:39 [ChrisL]
- illuminated glyphs
- 20:05:05 [ChrisL]
- jurassic park font with red inlay
- 20:05:58 [fat_tony]
- DS: People when doing layouts with glyphs
- 20:06:18 [fat_tony]
- ... [draws a diagram with Oprah W]
- 20:09:02 [fat_tony]
- JW: You'd want examples that don't raise too many examples
- 20:09:11 [fat_tony]
- ... that drawing raises too many questions
- 20:13:41 [heycam]
- Scribe: Jonathan
- 20:13:44 [heycam]
- ScribeNick: jwatt
- 20:13:58 [jwatt]
- DS: we should highlight what SVG fonts are good for
- 20:14:18 [jwatt]
- s/too many exmples/too many distracting questions/
- 20:16:49 [fat_tony]
- Scribe: Anthony
- 20:16:56 [fat_tony]
- ScribeNick: fat_tony
- 20:17:51 [ChrisL]
- Erik van Blokland
- 20:18:08 [ChrisL]
- http://people.mozilla.com/~jkew/woff/woff-2009-09-16.html
- 20:18:20 [ChrisL]
- http://www.robofab.com/
- 20:18:50 [ed]
- [that is in relation to SVG Fonts having a DOM and being editable that way clientside]
- 20:19:04 [ChrisL]
- http://www.fontlab.com/python/
- 20:20:02 [ChrisL]
- robofog http://typophile.com/node/13759?
- 20:24:58 [fat_tony]
- CM: So out of this we need use case on a Wiki pages
- 20:25:02 [fat_tony]
- ... so who is going to do this?
- 20:25:32 [fat_tony]
- JW: Whoever has examples or ideas of what people want to do
- 20:26:16 [fat_tony_]
- fat_tony_ has joined #svg
- 20:26:39 [fat_tony]
- ... so you could animate the line order of Asian characters
- 20:27:00 [fat_tony]
- s/line order/stroke order/
- 20:27:17 [fat_tony]
- ... for a tutorial
- 20:27:39 [fat_tony]
- AG: Someone will have to go through the minutes and put examples up on the wiki
- 20:28:31 [jwatt]
- put use case ideas here: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG_Font_Use_Cases ?
- 20:29:41 [fat_tony]
- JW: Is that URL ok?
- 20:30:08 [fat_tony]
- ... problem is the interest group can't edit that
- 20:30:38 [fat_tony]
- AG: so if we want input from them that's no good
- 20:31:56 [jwatt]
- ok, so http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/IG/wiki/SVG_Font_Use_Cases then?
- 20:32:45 [jwatt]
- the IG wiki is open to the public to make accounts, so anyone could add their ideas
- 22:08:23 [ed]
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- 22:09:01 [fat_tony]
- fat_tony has joined #svg
- 22:26:31 [fat_tony]
- fat_tony has joined #svg
- 22:27:57 [heycam]
- heycam has joined #svg
- 22:31:55 [fat_tony]
- AG: I think we should get the SVG IG to give us use cases
- 22:38:57 [ChrisL]
- ChrisL has joined #svg
- 22:39:10 [ChrisL]
- rrsagent, here
- 22:39:10 [RRSAgent]
- See http://www.w3.org/2009/09/26-svg-irc#T22-39-10
- 22:39:21 [ChrisL]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 22:39:21 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/26-svg-minutes.html ChrisL
- 22:42:14 [jwatt]
- jwatt has joined #svg
- 22:42:26 [ChrisL]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JulSep/0073.html
- 22:48:20 [fat_tony]
- fat_tony has joined #svg
- 22:49:06 [ChrisL]
- topic: Ambiguity in glyph element definition
- 22:49:43 [fat_tony]
- DS: What if you have a completely different thing like script
- 22:49:51 [fat_tony]
- CM: That's the example that Erik gave
- 22:50:11 [fat_tony]
- CL: In particular the way the script being handled is weird
- 22:50:15 [fat_tony]
- DS: What about CSS?
- 22:50:24 [fat_tony]
- CL: It has parsing rules that allows you to skip over it
- 22:52:22 [ChrisL]
- rrsagent, here
- 22:52:22 [RRSAgent]
- See http://www.w3.org/2009/09/26-svg-irc#T22-52-22
- 22:56:08 [fat_tony]
- CL: [reads section of spec out]
- 22:56:53 [fat_tony]
- DS: That's fine looks good to me
- 22:57:01 [fat_tony]
- ED: I'm concerned that's going to break things in the future
- 22:57:56 [fat_tony]
- ... because it looks like we are planning to change SVG Fonts anyway
- 22:58:06 [fat_tony]
- ... we also discussed how things inherit into it
- 22:58:24 [fat_tony]
- ... I guess we haven't decided on how it is going to work
- 22:58:43 [fat_tony]
- DS: You did talk about what sorts of changes you want to make?
- 22:59:19 [fat_tony]
- JW: For restricting content what would we restrict?
- 22:59:25 [fat_tony]
- CL: Unless we restrict it to zero
- 22:59:41 [fat_tony]
- ... the errata I just stuck in doesn't change anything
- 22:59:50 [fat_tony]
- DS: Chris's change just clarifies the spec
- 22:59:54 [fat_tony]
- ... it's not changing anything
- 23:00:00 [fat_tony]
- ... if we want to change anything in 2.0
- 23:00:03 [fat_tony]
- ... then that's fine
- 23:01:06 [fat_tony]
- ED: Just sounds weird to me
- 23:01:14 [fat_tony]
- ... but if that's the way it's suppose to work
- 23:01:24 [fat_tony]
- ... it's not going to change what we do
- 23:02:05 [fat_tony]
- CL: I don't see how it's different from a bunch of <use> elements
- 23:02:26 [fat_tony]
- ... both of them say they create anonymous shadow trees
- 23:04:33 [fat_tony]
- ED: The wording for the way it behaves like a cloning thing is not good
- 23:04:36 [fat_tony]
- ... I agree with what ROC says
- 23:06:04 [fat_tony]
- JW: Does batik render anything other than the 'd' attribute
- 23:06:06 [fat_tony]
- CM: Yes
- 23:06:13 [fat_tony]
- JW: Inheritance thing?
- 23:06:18 [fat_tony]
- CM: Not sure
- 23:07:12 [fat_tony]
- JW: Say I have two <tspans> in a text thing that's using a font
- 23:07:24 [fat_tony]
- ... those two <tspans> might have different styling
- 23:07:29 [fat_tony]
- ... and the same glyph
- 23:07:39 [fat_tony]
- ... if you do shadow trees then you need to do different styling
- 23:12:02 [fat_tony]
- ED: I was thinking about a font that could be made on both old and new user agents
- 23:12:25 [fat_tony]
- ... in some situations there might be a case where you want to provide a completely different glyph
- 23:12:34 [fat_tony]
- ... I can think of other ways of doing it
- 23:13:07 [jwatt]
- http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG_Fonts
- 23:14:04 [fat_tony]
- ED: So these are the properties that would inherit by default?
- 23:14:17 [fat_tony]
- JW: Unless you tried to stop them
- 23:14:40 [fat_tony]
- CM: So is this the list of all inherited properties minus the font ones?
- 23:14:52 [fat_tony]
- JW: I wasn't trying to create a complete list though
- 23:14:55 [ChrisL]
- http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG_Fonts_Inheritance
- 23:16:03 [fat_tony]
- ... the font element should be self contained
- 23:16:17 [fat_tony]
- ... if I copy and paste a font that has a gradient
- 23:16:30 [fat_tony]
- ... reference, then it will break
- 23:16:40 [fat_tony]
- CL: But how is that different from a group
- 23:16:52 [fat_tony]
- JW: I think of fonts as more self contained things
- 23:17:29 [ChrisL]
- They can be coded like that. Its authoring advice
- 23:17:38 [fat_tony]
- DS: Unless there is a optimisation advantage
- 23:17:49 [fat_tony]
- JW: It would be more overhead to restrict it
- 23:22:58 [fat_tony]
- ED: So I'm not objecting to the change anymore
- 23:28:10 [fat_tony]
- CL: I propose removing within an SVG document fragment part
- 23:30:01 [ed]
- xlink:href for tref says:
- 23:30:02 [ed]
- A URI reference to an element/fragment within an SVG document fragment whose character data content shall be used as character data for this 'tref' element.
- 23:30:31 [ed]
- change to:
- 23:30:32 [ed]
- A URI reference to an element whose character data content shall be used as character data for this 'tref' element.
- 23:32:28 [fat_tony]
- RESOLUTION: We agree to remove the restriction of tref pointing to only an SVG document fragment
- 23:41:18 [fat_tony]
- ED: So I put fill and stroke-width with on a glyph and it didn't affect the glyph
- 23:41:34 [fat_tony]
- ... I guess it depends what type of element the glyph is
- 23:41:58 [fat_tony]
- CM: I don't think it's good to treat it differently
- 23:42:49 [ed]
- if fill and stroke-width is put on a <text> element then it does affect the rendered text
- 23:43:09 [ed]
- so the same for svg fonts as for any other type of font
- 23:43:38 [fat_tony]
- CM: But does it do it in the coordinate system of the glyph?
- 23:43:40 [fat_tony]
- ED: I don't think so
- 23:51:53 [ChrisL]
- rrsagent, here
- 23:51:53 [RRSAgent]
- See http://www.w3.org/2009/09/26-svg-irc#T23-51-53