16:24:44 RRSAgent has joined #ua 16:24:44 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-irc 16:24:46 RRSAgent, make logs public 16:24:46 Zakim has joined #ua 16:24:48 Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG 16:24:48 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 36 minutes 16:24:49 Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 16:24:49 Date: 17 September 2009 16:26:04 Chair: Jim_allan 16:26:25 Regrets:Henny, Kim 16:27:29 regrets+Jan 16:28:31 Agenda+ Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)? 16:28:32 Agenda+ Face to face – sign up and book hotel - http://www.w3.org/2009/11/TPAC/ 16:28:34 Agenda+ beta W3 site – http://beta.w3.org. Activities listed at http://beta.w3.org/Consortium/activities.html 16:28:35 Agenda+ Discuss part of survey not talked about from http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090722/ 16:28:37 Agenda+ Talk about Guideline 4.9 Provide control of content that may reduce accessibility. 16:28:38 Agenda+ review any new proposals sent to list 16:28:40 Agenda+ Think about techniques in preparation for F2F. 16:28:41 - UAAG10 Techniques 16:28:43 http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/NOTE-UAAG10-TECHS-20021217/ 16:28:45 - ATAG Techniques 16:28:46 http://www.w3.org/WAI/AU/2009/ED-ATAG20-TECHS-20090814/#gl-Web-based-accessi 16:28:48 ble 16:28:49 - WCAG20 Techniques http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/ 16:29:18 rrsagent, make minutes 16:29:18 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-minutes.html kford 16:53:13 Greg has joined #ua 16:58:15 AllanJ has joined #ua 16:58:53 mth has joined #ua 17:00:02 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started 17:00:09 + +1.425.895.aaaa 17:00:27 jeanne has joined #ua 17:00:32 zakim, code? 17:00:32 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jeanne 17:00:55 +Jeanne 17:01:15 +AllanJ 17:01:17 -AllanJ 17:01:38 sharper has joined #ua 17:01:45 zakim, code? 17:01:45 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), sharper 17:01:57 +AllanJ 17:02:30 +??P8 17:02:32 zakim, ??P8 is sharper 17:02:32 +sharper; got it 17:03:15 +[Microsoft] 17:03:47 zakim, microsoft is kford 17:03:47 +kford; got it 17:04:14 +conrad 17:04:51 zakim, conrad is really mth 17:04:51 +mth; got it 17:05:40 Scribe: kford 17:05:59 zakim, take up item 1 17:05:59 agendum 1. "Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?" taken up [from kford] 17:06:33 zakim, ttake up item 2 17:06:33 I don't understand 'ttake up item 2', kford 17:06:41 zakim, close item 1 17:06:41 agendum 1, Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?, closed 17:06:43 I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:06:44 2. Face to face – sign up and book hotel - http://www.w3.org/2009/11/TPAC/ [from kford] 17:06:55 zakim, take up item 2 17:06:55 agendum 2. "Face to face – sign up and book hotel - http://www.w3.org/2009/11/TPAC/" taken up [from kford] 17:07:21 Jim: Reminderif you are attending the F2F please sign up now. 17:08:22 Jeanne: Clarifies what registration is about. 17:10:40 zakim, close item 2 17:10:40 agendum 2, Face to face – sign up and book hotel - http://www.w3.org/2009/11/TPAC/, closed 17:10:42 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:10:43 3. beta W3 site – http://beta.w3.org. Activities listed at http://beta.w3.org/Consortium/activities.html [from kford] 17:10:55 zakim, take up item 3 17:10:55 agendum 3. "beta W3 site – http://beta.w3.org. Activities listed at http://beta.w3.org/Consortium/activities.html" taken up [from kford] 17:11:21 Jim: W3C has a new beta site. Please take a look. 17:12:00 Greg: I did take a look and it seemed buggy. I followed a link, hit back and there was twice as much content. 17:12:25 Greg: Also, some of the headings changed text while I was viewing. 17:14:05 Probably best to use feedback link at the bottom of the page to report issues. 17:14:43 Jim: Note there's a big section on browsers and authoring tools. 17:14:58 Jeanne: We make it in user agents and accessibility. 17:15:24 Greg: They've chosen some items tht make visual use hard. Sizes are small and underlining is problematic. 17:15:43 s/tht/that 17:15:54 zakim, close item 3 17:15:54 agendum 3, beta W3 site – http://beta.w3.org. Activities listed at http://beta.w3.org/Consortium/activities.html, closed 17:15:56 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:15:57 4. Discuss part of survey not talked about from http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090722/ [from kford] 17:16:33 zakim, take up item 5 17:16:33 agendum 5. "Talk about Guideline 4.9 Provide control of content that may reduce accessibility." taken up [from kford] 17:16:54 http://www.w3.org/TR/UAAG20/#principle-operable 17:17:57 4.9 currently seems to be a catch-all for multimedia, scripting, plus a few other things like text scaling. It makes no sense to me. 17:18:20 rrsagent, make minutes 17:18:20 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-minutes.html kford 17:19:08 Greg: Also expressed concerns related to ISO with current 4.9. 17:19:59 Here are some possibly relevant success criteria from ISO 9241-171: 17:20:04 • 8.2.7 Enable user control of timed responses 17:20:06 • 10.1.2 Enable user control of time-sensitive presentation of information 17:20:07 • 10.1.3 Provide accessible alternatives to task-relevant audio and video 17:20:08 • 10.2.1 Enable users to adjust graphic attributes 17:20:10 • 10.6.5 Control of background and other sound tracks 17:20:11 • 10.6.7 Allow users to choose visual alternative for audio output 17:20:13 • 10.6.8 Synchronize audio equivalents for visual events 17:20:14 • 10.7 Text equivalents of audio (captions) 17:20:16 • 10.8.1 Enable users to stop, start and pause 17:20:18 • 10.8.2 Enable users to replay, rewind, pause and fast-or jump-forward 17:20:19 • 10.8.3 Allow user to control presentation of multiple media streams 17:20:21 • 10.8.4 Update equivalent alternatives for media when the media changes 17:22:14 Jeanne: One thing we've been looking at in ATAG is organizing around ways that are useful to people using guidelines. If we have this many multimedia maybe we need to separate? 17:22:38 Jim: We talked about this last week. Greg, isn't ISO arranged around functional criteria. 17:23:12 Greg: To some degree, sect 9 is input, sect. 10 is output for example. 17:24:47 Greg to show table of contents to e-mail list. 17:26:07 regrets+David 17:26:32 Jim: Seems this is the 2nd or 3rd time a restructure has come up. 17:26:59 Jeanne:I'd like to be clear that I don't think we should change the top level from WCAG. Within the broad sections we may want to organize. 17:29:48 Greg: We probably don't want to have something like text scaling in the multimedia section by and large. 17:30:05 Greg: People looking for it won't find it there. 17:30:31 Jeanne: We've sometimes used 4.9 as a dumping ground. We should probably look at see if everything there still belongs. 17:33:26 Group talks more about what's in 4.9 and how it does/does not relate to multimedia. 17:33:43 Currently we have some stuff on Javascript and such. 17:34:21 Jim: When we put these in 4.9.4 wqas really don't just play a movie, start with some placeholder and let me decide when to start. 17:34:40 s/wqas/was 17:37:58 KF: sort out execution. is the rest of 4.9 ok 17:38:45 More talk about execution and the multimedia. Questions around how this relates to html 5.MH: Looking at execution item, HTML has a concept of a poster frame. If you use the video element you have an author defined frame that sits there until you start the video. 17:38:51 MH: HTML 5 uses 'poster frame' for 4.9.4 'execution placeholder' 17:39:35 MH: We should try and align with the HTML5 spec. 17:40:11 Action: MH to square HTML5 with 4.9. 17:40:12 Created ACTION-226 - Square HTML5 with 4.9. [on Markku Hakkinen - due 2009-09-24]. 17:40:58 Jim: Looking at 4.9F and 4.97. They sound the same to me. 17:42:48 ANSI 200.2 10.1.2 Enable user control of time-sensitive presentation of information (Level 1) 17:42:49 Whenever moving, blinking, scrolling, or auto-updating information other than simple progress indicators is presented, software should enable the user to pause or stop the presentation. 17:43:18 10.8.1 Enable users to stop, start and pause media (Level 1) 17:43:19 Software should enable users to stop, start and pause the presentation. 17:43:21 10.8.2 Enable users to replay, rewind, pause and fast or jump forward (Level 2) 17:43:22 Software should enable users to replay, rewind, pause and fast or jump forward the presentation, where appropriate to the task. 17:45:27 Group talks about clarification of navigation in multimedia. 17:45:49 MH: I think navigation in media now also means you need to navigate structurally, not just by time. 17:46:34 Greg: We have to be careful that we word this in such a way that this is around when the meida content supports this structural navigation. 17:46:59 s/meida/media 17:47:45 Jim: We we change 4.9.8 to only time concepts. 17:48:04 Jim: We then create a new checkpoing around supporting structural. 17:48:23 MH: I think we try and support this all in one. 17:49:07 MH: You are starting to see this for example on youtube where you can jump to annotations or specific elements in the video. 17:50:07 Action: MH to update 4.9.8 to reflect concepts of both time and structural navigation in media. 17:50:07 Created ACTION-227 - Update 4.9.8 to reflect concepts of both time and structural navigation in media. [on Markku Hakkinen - due 2009-09-24]. 17:50:56 Group talking about how this impacts 4.6 and 4.7 with text search and structural navigation. 17:51:09 rrsagent, make minutes 17:51:09 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-minutes.html kford 17:51:37 issue: cross referencing text search, structured navigation, with media info 17:51:37 Created ISSUE-44 - Cross referencing text search, structured navigation, with media info ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/44/edit . 17:52:08 Greg: We previously talked about extending text search to talk about more than just text, but also other content like media and such where searchable contnet is now available. 17:52:28 rendered text and/or (user's choice) alternative text 17:52:46 s/contnet/content 17:53:05 Jim: I don't think we ever came up with text to reflect this that has made it in the document. 17:53:35 Jim: Wait, it is in 4..1. 17:54:23 Greg: It isn't clear that the user should be able to jump to the video that contains this text. 17:54:45 Jim: Reads example from 4.6.3 where he says this does support this. 17:55:12 Greg: From a techniques standpoint this is problematic. 17:56:05 Greg: I bring up a web page but don't play the video. I search for Greg and it appears 15 minutes in the video. 17:56:28 Simon: I already have an action on me from earlier to update 4.6. 17:57:10 Jim: Can we remove 4.9.f becuase it is covered in 4.9.7? 17:57:32 Action: Jeanne remove 4.9.f 17:57:32 Created ACTION-228 - Remove 4.9.f [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-09-24]. 17:59:23 MH: 4.9.f talks about paused media i.e. a paused state. Do we reference someplace else this paused state? 18:00:36 action: allanj to review Nice F2F minutes for clarity on 4.9.f Puaused mulimedia 18:00:36 Sorry, couldn't find user - allanj 18:01:01 action: jallan to review Nice F2F minutes for clarity on 4.9.f Paused multimedia 18:01:01 Created ACTION-229 - Review Nice F2F minutes for clarity on 4.9.f Paused multimedia [on Jim Allan - due 2009-09-24]. 18:03:26 KF: need or desire for speeding up media. 18:05:12 Group talked about speeding up media. KFord game example of reading books at faster rate of speech. 18:05:22 MH: if you create slow down algorithm, then you have the speed up capability 18:05:26 10.6.4 Enable adjustment of audio output 18:05:28 Software should enable users to adjust the attributes of task-relevant audio output such as frequency, speed and sound content. 18:05:45 s/game/gave 18:06:31 Jim: We we want to rewrite 4.9.6 to include speed. 18:07:41 Group talks about technical ability to speed content up. 18:08:28 MH: Once you have the ability to slow, youhave the ability to speed, excluding live media. 18:09:09 KF: difference between speed up and fast forward. 18:10:09 ...3 concepts - 1 jump, 2 fast forward - no or little perception of what is going past, 3 speed up - content goes faster, and user can perceive 18:10:46 ...1 jump, is skip to new point with no perception of intervening content 18:12:21 KF: want a duplicate of 4.9.6 that addresses speed. 18:13:12 Action: kford to create a guideline to address speeding up of media. Look at 4.9.6. 18:13:12 Sorry, couldn't find user - kford 18:14:23 Action: kford to create guideline similar to 4.9.6 for increasing media speed. 18:14:23 Sorry, couldn't find user - kford 18:15:23 ISO 10.6.5 Control of background and other sound tracks 18:15:25 If the background and other sound layers are separate audio tracks/channels, software should provide a mechanism to enable users to control the volume of and/or turn on/off each audio track. 18:16:09 Action: KFord write guideline on media speed like 4.9.6 18:16:09 Sorry, couldn't find user - KFord 18:17:19 NOTE Background sounds (e.g. sound effects, music) can mask speech audio or make speech audio more difficult to 18:17:21 distinguish by those who are hard of hearing. 18:17:22 EXAMPLE A person who is hard of hearing turns down the background sound so they can understand the dialogue 18:17:39 action: kford to write guideline on media speed like 4.9.6 18:17:39 Sorry, couldn't find user - kford 18:17:58 user needs ability to control which caption, audio, and descriptive video tracks are playing 18:18:27 action: KF to write guideline on media speed like 4.9.6 18:18:27 Created ACTION-230 - Write guideline on media speed like 4.9.6 [on Kelly Ford - due 2009-09-24]. 18:18:36 The ISO success criterion is trying to be general and basically say "the user should be able to independently control any audio that can (technically) be separately controlled." 18:20:01 Group talking more about media with multiple tracks. 18:22:07 Action: Jallan to create 4.9.x Track Enable/Disable of Time-Based Media 18:22:07 Created ACTION-231 - Create 4.9.x Track Enable/Disable of Time-Based Media [on Jim Allan - due 2009-09-24]. 18:23:48 More discussion of what tracks people should be able to get from media. 18:24:04 Just one language, maybe just audio. 18:24:30 Suggest being more generic than just adjusting audio: someone blind or with low vandwidth connection might want to hide the video and only get the text and/or audio. 18:25:57 zakim, take up item 7 18:25:57 agendum 7. "Think about techniques in preparation for F2F." taken up [from kford] 18:26:30 Jim: F2F is still six weeks out. Start to think about what we can do in preparation to be successful. 18:26:46 Jim: Specifically, techniques. 18:27:36 -kford 18:27:47 rrsagent, amke minutes 18:27:47 I'm logging. I don't understand 'amke minutes', kford. Try /msg RRSAgent help 18:27:55 - +1.425.895.aaaa 18:28:01 -sharper 18:28:02 rrsagent, make minutes 18:28:02 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-minutes.html kford 18:28:13 -mth 18:29:37 Present:Jim, Greg, Kelly, Simon, Jeanne, Mark 18:29:46 rrsagent, make minutes 18:29:46 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-minutes.html kford 18:31:57 zakim, please part 18:31:57 leaving. As of this point the attendees were +1.425.895.aaaa, Jeanne, AllanJ, sharper, kford, mth 18:31:57 Zakim has left #ua 18:32:12 rrsagent, please part 18:32:12 I see 11 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-actions.rdf : 18:32:12 ACTION: MH to square HTML5 with 4.9. [1] 18:32:12 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-irc#T17-40-11 18:32:12 ACTION: MH to update 4.9.8 to reflect concepts of both time and structural navigation in media. [2] 18:32:12 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-irc#T17-50-07 18:32:12 ACTION: Jeanne remove 4.9.f [3] 18:32:12 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-irc#T17-57-32 18:32:12 ACTION: allanj to review Nice F2F minutes for clarity on 4.9.f Puaused mulimedia [4] 18:32:12 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-irc#T18-00-36 18:32:12 ACTION: jallan to review Nice F2F minutes for clarity on 4.9.f Paused multimedia [5] 18:32:12 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-irc#T18-01-01 18:32:12 ACTION: kford to create a guideline to address speeding up of media. Look at 4.9.6. [6] 18:32:12 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-irc#T18-13-12 18:32:12 ACTION: kford to create guideline similar to 4.9.6 for increasing media speed. [7] 18:32:12 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-irc#T18-14-23 18:32:12 ACTION: KFord write guideline on media speed like 4.9.6 [8] 18:32:12 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-irc#T18-16-09 18:32:12 ACTION: kford to write guideline on media speed like 4.9.6 [9] 18:32:12 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-irc#T18-17-39 18:32:12 ACTION: KF to write guideline on media speed like 4.9.6 [10] 18:32:12 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-irc#T18-18-27 18:32:12 ACTION: Jallan to create 4.9.x Track Enable/Disable of Time-Based Media [11] 18:32:12 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-irc#T18-22-07