IRC log of ua on 2009-09-17
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 16:24:44 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #ua
- 16:24:44 [RRSAgent]
- logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-irc
- 16:24:46 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, make logs public
- 16:24:46 [Zakim]
- Zakim has joined #ua
- 16:24:48 [trackbot]
- Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
- 16:24:48 [Zakim]
- ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 36 minutes
- 16:24:49 [trackbot]
- Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
- 16:24:49 [trackbot]
- Date: 17 September 2009
- 16:26:04 [kford]
- Chair: Jim_allan
- 16:26:25 [kford]
- Regrets:Henny, Kim
- 16:27:29 [kford]
- regrets+Jan
- 16:28:31 [kford]
- Agenda+ Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?
- 16:28:32 [kford]
- Agenda+ Face to face – sign up and book hotel - http://www.w3.org/2009/11/TPAC/
- 16:28:34 [kford]
- Agenda+ beta W3 site – http://beta.w3.org. Activities listed at http://beta.w3.org/Consortium/activities.html
- 16:28:35 [kford]
- Agenda+ Discuss part of survey not talked about from http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090722/
- 16:28:37 [kford]
- Agenda+ Talk about Guideline 4.9 Provide control of content that may reduce accessibility.
- 16:28:38 [kford]
- Agenda+ review any new proposals sent to list
- 16:28:40 [kford]
- Agenda+ Think about techniques in preparation for F2F.
- 16:28:41 [kford]
- - UAAG10 Techniques
- 16:28:43 [kford]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/NOTE-UAAG10-TECHS-20021217/
- 16:28:45 [kford]
- - ATAG Techniques
- 16:28:46 [kford]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/AU/2009/ED-ATAG20-TECHS-20090814/#gl-Web-based-accessi
- 16:28:48 [kford]
- ble
- 16:28:49 [kford]
- - WCAG20 Techniques http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/
- 16:29:18 [kford]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 16:29:18 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-minutes.html kford
- 16:53:13 [Greg]
- Greg has joined #ua
- 16:58:15 [AllanJ]
- AllanJ has joined #ua
- 16:58:53 [mth]
- mth has joined #ua
- 17:00:02 [Zakim]
- WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
- 17:00:09 [Zakim]
- + +1.425.895.aaaa
- 17:00:27 [jeanne]
- jeanne has joined #ua
- 17:00:32 [jeanne]
- zakim, code?
- 17:00:32 [Zakim]
- the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jeanne
- 17:00:55 [Zakim]
- +Jeanne
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- +AllanJ
- 17:01:17 [Zakim]
- -AllanJ
- 17:01:38 [sharper]
- sharper has joined #ua
- 17:01:45 [sharper]
- zakim, code?
- 17:01:45 [Zakim]
- the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), sharper
- 17:01:57 [Zakim]
- +AllanJ
- 17:02:30 [Zakim]
- +??P8
- 17:02:32 [sharper]
- zakim, ??P8 is sharper
- 17:02:32 [Zakim]
- +sharper; got it
- 17:03:15 [Zakim]
- +[Microsoft]
- 17:03:47 [kford]
- zakim, microsoft is kford
- 17:03:47 [Zakim]
- +kford; got it
- 17:04:14 [Zakim]
- +conrad
- 17:04:51 [jeanne]
- zakim, conrad is really mth
- 17:04:51 [Zakim]
- +mth; got it
- 17:05:40 [kford]
- Scribe: kford
- 17:05:59 [kford]
- zakim, take up item 1
- 17:05:59 [Zakim]
- agendum 1. "Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?" taken up [from kford]
- 17:06:33 [kford]
- zakim, ttake up item 2
- 17:06:33 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'ttake up item 2', kford
- 17:06:41 [kford]
- zakim, close item 1
- 17:06:41 [Zakim]
- agendum 1, Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?, closed
- 17:06:43 [Zakim]
- I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
- 17:06:44 [Zakim]
- 2. Face to face – sign up and book hotel - http://www.w3.org/2009/11/TPAC/ [from kford]
- 17:06:55 [kford]
- zakim, take up item 2
- 17:06:55 [Zakim]
- agendum 2. "Face to face – sign up and book hotel - http://www.w3.org/2009/11/TPAC/" taken up [from kford]
- 17:07:21 [kford]
- Jim: Reminderif you are attending the F2F please sign up now.
- 17:08:22 [kford]
- Jeanne: Clarifies what registration is about.
- 17:10:40 [kford]
- zakim, close item 2
- 17:10:40 [Zakim]
- agendum 2, Face to face – sign up and book hotel - http://www.w3.org/2009/11/TPAC/, closed
- 17:10:42 [Zakim]
- I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
- 17:10:43 [Zakim]
- 3. beta W3 site – http://beta.w3.org. Activities listed at http://beta.w3.org/Consortium/activities.html [from kford]
- 17:10:55 [kford]
- zakim, take up item 3
- 17:10:55 [Zakim]
- agendum 3. "beta W3 site – http://beta.w3.org. Activities listed at http://beta.w3.org/Consortium/activities.html" taken up [from kford]
- 17:11:21 [kford]
- Jim: W3C has a new beta site. Please take a look.
- 17:12:00 [kford]
- Greg: I did take a look and it seemed buggy. I followed a link, hit back and there was twice as much content.
- 17:12:25 [kford]
- Greg: Also, some of the headings changed text while I was viewing.
- 17:14:05 [kford]
- Probably best to use feedback link at the bottom of the page to report issues.
- 17:14:43 [kford]
- Jim: Note there's a big section on browsers and authoring tools.
- 17:14:58 [kford]
- Jeanne: We make it in user agents and accessibility.
- 17:15:24 [kford]
- Greg: They've chosen some items tht make visual use hard. Sizes are small and underlining is problematic.
- 17:15:43 [kford]
- s/tht/that
- 17:15:54 [kford]
- zakim, close item 3
- 17:15:54 [Zakim]
- agendum 3, beta W3 site – http://beta.w3.org. Activities listed at http://beta.w3.org/Consortium/activities.html, closed
- 17:15:56 [Zakim]
- I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
- 17:15:57 [Zakim]
- 4. Discuss part of survey not talked about from http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090722/ [from kford]
- 17:16:33 [kford]
- zakim, take up item 5
- 17:16:33 [Zakim]
- agendum 5. "Talk about Guideline 4.9 Provide control of content that may reduce accessibility." taken up [from kford]
- 17:16:54 [AllanJ]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/UAAG20/#principle-operable
- 17:17:57 [Greg]
- 4.9 currently seems to be a catch-all for multimedia, scripting, plus a few other things like text scaling. It makes no sense to me.
- 17:18:20 [kford]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 17:18:20 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-minutes.html kford
- 17:19:08 [kford]
- Greg: Also expressed concerns related to ISO with current 4.9.
- 17:19:59 [Greg]
- Here are some possibly relevant success criteria from ISO 9241-171:
- 17:20:04 [Greg]
- •8.2.7 Enable user control of timed responses
- 17:20:06 [Greg]
- •10.1.2 Enable user control of time-sensitive presentation of information
- 17:20:07 [Greg]
- •10.1.3 Provide accessible alternatives to task-relevant audio and video
- 17:20:08 [Greg]
- •10.2.1 Enable users to adjust graphic attributes
- 17:20:10 [Greg]
- •10.6.5 Control of background and other sound tracks
- 17:20:11 [Greg]
- •10.6.7 Allow users to choose visual alternative for audio output
- 17:20:13 [Greg]
- •10.6.8 Synchronize audio equivalents for visual events
- 17:20:14 [Greg]
- •10.7 Text equivalents of audio (captions)
- 17:20:16 [Greg]
- •10.8.1 Enable users to stop, start and pause
- 17:20:18 [Greg]
- •10.8.2 Enable users to replay, rewind, pause and fast-or jump-forward
- 17:20:19 [Greg]
- •10.8.3 Allow user to control presentation of multiple media streams
- 17:20:21 [Greg]
- •10.8.4 Update equivalent alternatives for media when the media changes
- 17:22:14 [kford]
- Jeanne: One thing we've been looking at in ATAG is organizing around ways that are useful to people using guidelines. If we have this many multimedia maybe we need to separate?
- 17:22:38 [kford]
- Jim: We talked about this last week. Greg, isn't ISO arranged around functional criteria.
- 17:23:12 [kford]
- Greg: To some degree, sect 9 is input, sect. 10 is output for example.
- 17:24:47 [kford]
- Greg to show table of contents to e-mail list.
- 17:26:07 [kford]
- regrets+David
- 17:26:32 [kford]
- Jim: Seems this is the 2nd or 3rd time a restructure has come up.
- 17:26:59 [kford]
- Jeanne:I'd like to be clear that I don't think we should change the top level from WCAG. Within the broad sections we may want to organize.
- 17:29:48 [kford]
- Greg: We probably don't want to have something like text scaling in the multimedia section by and large.
- 17:30:05 [kford]
- Greg: People looking for it won't find it there.
- 17:30:31 [kford]
- Jeanne: We've sometimes used 4.9 as a dumping ground. We should probably look at see if everything there still belongs.
- 17:33:26 [kford]
- Group talks more about what's in 4.9 and how it does/does not relate to multimedia.
- 17:33:43 [kford]
- Currently we have some stuff on Javascript and such.
- 17:34:21 [kford]
- Jim: When we put these in 4.9.4 wqas really don't just play a movie, start with some placeholder and let me decide when to start.
- 17:34:40 [kford]
- s/wqas/was
- 17:37:58 [AllanJ]
- KF: sort out execution. is the rest of 4.9 ok
- 17:38:45 [kford]
- More talk about execution and the multimedia. Questions around how this relates to html 5.MH: Looking at execution item, HTML has a concept of a poster frame. If you use the video element you have an author defined frame that sits there until you start the video.
- 17:38:51 [AllanJ]
- MH: HTML 5 uses 'poster frame' for 4.9.4 'execution placeholder'
- 17:39:35 [kford]
- MH: We should try and align with the HTML5 spec.
- 17:40:11 [kford]
- Action: MH to square HTML5 with 4.9.
- 17:40:12 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-226 - Square HTML5 with 4.9. [on Markku Hakkinen - due 2009-09-24].
- 17:40:58 [kford]
- Jim: Looking at 4.9F and 4.97. They sound the same to me.
- 17:42:48 [Greg]
- ANSI 200.2 10.1.2 Enable user control of time-sensitive presentation of information (Level 1)
- 17:42:49 [Greg]
- Whenever moving, blinking, scrolling, or auto-updating information other than simple progress indicators is presented, software should enable the user to pause or stop the presentation.
- 17:43:18 [Greg]
- 10.8.1 Enable users to stop, start and pause media (Level 1)
- 17:43:19 [Greg]
- Software should enable users to stop, start and pause the presentation.
- 17:43:21 [Greg]
- 10.8.2 Enable users to replay, rewind, pause and fast or jump forward (Level 2)
- 17:43:22 [Greg]
- Software should enable users to replay, rewind, pause and fast or jump forward the presentation, where appropriate to the task.
- 17:45:27 [kford]
- Group talks about clarification of navigation in multimedia.
- 17:45:49 [kford]
- MH: I think navigation in media now also means you need to navigate structurally, not just by time.
- 17:46:34 [kford]
- Greg: We have to be careful that we word this in such a way that this is around when the meida content supports this structural navigation.
- 17:46:59 [kford]
- s/meida/media
- 17:47:45 [kford]
- Jim: We we change 4.9.8 to only time concepts.
- 17:48:04 [kford]
- Jim: We then create a new checkpoing around supporting structural.
- 17:48:23 [kford]
- MH: I think we try and support this all in one.
- 17:49:07 [kford]
- MH: You are starting to see this for example on youtube where you can jump to annotations or specific elements in the video.
- 17:50:07 [kford]
- Action: MH to update 4.9.8 to reflect concepts of both time and structural navigation in media.
- 17:50:07 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-227 - Update 4.9.8 to reflect concepts of both time and structural navigation in media. [on Markku Hakkinen - due 2009-09-24].
- 17:50:56 [kford]
- Group talking about how this impacts 4.6 and 4.7 with text search and structural navigation.
- 17:51:09 [kford]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 17:51:09 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-minutes.html kford
- 17:51:37 [AllanJ]
- issue: cross referencing text search, structured navigation, with media info
- 17:51:37 [trackbot]
- Created ISSUE-44 - Cross referencing text search, structured navigation, with media info ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/44/edit .
- 17:52:08 [kford]
- Greg: We previously talked about extending text search to talk about more than just text, but also other content like media and such where searchable contnet is now available.
- 17:52:28 [Greg]
- rendered text and/or (user's choice) alternative text
- 17:52:46 [kford]
- s/contnet/content
- 17:53:05 [kford]
- Jim: I don't think we ever came up with text to reflect this that has made it in the document.
- 17:53:35 [kford]
- Jim: Wait, it is in 4..1.
- 17:54:23 [kford]
- Greg: It isn't clear that the user should be able to jump to the video that contains this text.
- 17:54:45 [kford]
- Jim: Reads example from 4.6.3 where he says this does support this.
- 17:55:12 [kford]
- Greg: From a techniques standpoint this is problematic.
- 17:56:05 [kford]
- Greg: I bring up a web page but don't play the video. I search for Greg and it appears 15 minutes in the video.
- 17:56:28 [kford]
- Simon: I already have an action on me from earlier to update 4.6.
- 17:57:10 [kford]
- Jim: Can we remove 4.9.f becuase it is covered in 4.9.7?
- 17:57:32 [kford]
- Action: Jeanne remove 4.9.f
- 17:57:32 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-228 - Remove 4.9.f [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-09-24].
- 17:59:23 [kford]
- MH: 4.9.f talks about paused media i.e. a paused state. Do we reference someplace else this paused state?
- 18:00:36 [AllanJ]
- action: allanj to review Nice F2F minutes for clarity on 4.9.f Puaused mulimedia
- 18:00:36 [trackbot]
- Sorry, couldn't find user - allanj
- 18:01:01 [AllanJ]
- action: jallan to review Nice F2F minutes for clarity on 4.9.f Paused multimedia
- 18:01:01 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-229 - Review Nice F2F minutes for clarity on 4.9.f Paused multimedia [on Jim Allan - due 2009-09-24].
- 18:03:26 [AllanJ]
- KF: need or desire for speeding up media.
- 18:05:12 [kford]
- Group talked about speeding up media. KFord game example of reading books at faster rate of speech.
- 18:05:22 [AllanJ]
- MH: if you create slow down algorithm, then you have the speed up capability
- 18:05:26 [Greg]
- 10.6.4 Enable adjustment of audio output
- 18:05:28 [Greg]
- Software should enable users to adjust the attributes of task-relevant audio output such as frequency, speed and sound content.
- 18:05:45 [kford]
- s/game/gave
- 18:06:31 [kford]
- Jim: We we want to rewrite 4.9.6 to include speed.
- 18:07:41 [kford]
- Group talks about technical ability to speed content up.
- 18:08:28 [kford]
- MH: Once you have the ability to slow, youhave the ability to speed, excluding live media.
- 18:09:09 [AllanJ]
- KF: difference between speed up and fast forward.
- 18:10:09 [AllanJ]
- ...3 concepts - 1 jump, 2 fast forward - no or little perception of what is going past, 3 speed up - content goes faster, and user can perceive
- 18:10:46 [AllanJ]
- ...1 jump, is skip to new point with no perception of intervening content
- 18:12:21 [AllanJ]
- KF: want a duplicate of 4.9.6 that addresses speed.
- 18:13:12 [kford]
- Action: kford to create a guideline to address speeding up of media. Look at 4.9.6.
- 18:13:12 [trackbot]
- Sorry, couldn't find user - kford
- 18:14:23 [kford]
- Action: kford to create guideline similar to 4.9.6 for increasing media speed.
- 18:14:23 [trackbot]
- Sorry, couldn't find user - kford
- 18:15:23 [Greg]
- ISO 10.6.5 Control of background and other sound tracks
- 18:15:25 [Greg]
- If the background and other sound layers are separate audio tracks/channels, software should provide a mechanism to enable users to control the volume of and/or turn on/off each audio track.
- 18:16:09 [kford]
- Action: KFord write guideline on media speed like 4.9.6
- 18:16:09 [trackbot]
- Sorry, couldn't find user - KFord
- 18:17:19 [Greg]
- NOTEBackground sounds (e.g. sound effects, music) can mask speech audio or make speech audio more difficult to
- 18:17:21 [Greg]
- distinguish by those who are hard of hearing.
- 18:17:22 [Greg]
- EXAMPLEA person who is hard of hearing turns down the background sound so they can understand the dialogue
- 18:17:39 [jeanne]
- action: kford to write guideline on media speed like 4.9.6
- 18:17:39 [trackbot]
- Sorry, couldn't find user - kford
- 18:17:58 [AllanJ]
- user needs ability to control which caption, audio, and descriptive video tracks are playing
- 18:18:27 [jeanne]
- action: KF to write guideline on media speed like 4.9.6
- 18:18:27 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-230 - Write guideline on media speed like 4.9.6 [on Kelly Ford - due 2009-09-24].
- 18:18:36 [Greg]
- The ISO success criterion is trying to be general and basically say "the user should be able to independently control any audio that can (technically) be separately controlled."
- 18:20:01 [kford]
- Group talking more about media with multiple tracks.
- 18:22:07 [AllanJ]
- Action: Jallan to create 4.9.x Track Enable/Disable of Time-Based Media
- 18:22:07 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-231 - Create 4.9.x Track Enable/Disable of Time-Based Media [on Jim Allan - due 2009-09-24].
- 18:23:48 [kford]
- More discussion of what tracks people should be able to get from media.
- 18:24:04 [kford]
- Just one language, maybe just audio.
- 18:24:30 [Greg]
- Suggest being more generic than just adjusting audio: someone blind or with low vandwidth connection might want to hide the video and only get the text and/or audio.
- 18:25:57 [kford]
- zakim, take up item 7
- 18:25:57 [Zakim]
- agendum 7. "Think about techniques in preparation for F2F." taken up [from kford]
- 18:26:30 [kford]
- Jim: F2F is still six weeks out. Start to think about what we can do in preparation to be successful.
- 18:26:46 [kford]
- Jim: Specifically, techniques.
- 18:27:36 [Zakim]
- -kford
- 18:27:47 [kford]
- rrsagent, amke minutes
- 18:27:47 [RRSAgent]
- I'm logging. I don't understand 'amke minutes', kford. Try /msg RRSAgent help
- 18:27:55 [Zakim]
- - +1.425.895.aaaa
- 18:28:01 [Zakim]
- -sharper
- 18:28:02 [kford]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 18:28:02 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-minutes.html kford
- 18:28:13 [Zakim]
- -mth
- 18:29:37 [kford]
- Present:Jim, Greg, Kelly, Simon, Jeanne, Mark
- 18:29:46 [kford]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 18:29:46 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-minutes.html kford
- 18:31:57 [kford]
- zakim, please part
- 18:31:57 [Zakim]
- leaving. As of this point the attendees were +1.425.895.aaaa, Jeanne, AllanJ, sharper, kford, mth
- 18:31:57 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #ua
- 18:32:12 [kford]
- rrsagent, please part
- 18:32:12 [RRSAgent]
- I see 11 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-actions.rdf :
- 18:32:12 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: MH to square HTML5 with 4.9. [1]
- 18:32:12 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-irc#T17-40-11
- 18:32:12 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: MH to update 4.9.8 to reflect concepts of both time and structural navigation in media. [2]
- 18:32:12 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-irc#T17-50-07
- 18:32:12 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Jeanne remove 4.9.f [3]
- 18:32:12 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-irc#T17-57-32
- 18:32:12 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: allanj to review Nice F2F minutes for clarity on 4.9.f Puaused mulimedia [4]
- 18:32:12 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-irc#T18-00-36
- 18:32:12 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: jallan to review Nice F2F minutes for clarity on 4.9.f Paused multimedia [5]
- 18:32:12 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-irc#T18-01-01
- 18:32:12 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: kford to create a guideline to address speeding up of media. Look at 4.9.6. [6]
- 18:32:12 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-irc#T18-13-12
- 18:32:12 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: kford to create guideline similar to 4.9.6 for increasing media speed. [7]
- 18:32:12 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-irc#T18-14-23
- 18:32:12 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: KFord write guideline on media speed like 4.9.6 [8]
- 18:32:12 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-irc#T18-16-09
- 18:32:12 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: kford to write guideline on media speed like 4.9.6 [9]
- 18:32:12 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-irc#T18-17-39
- 18:32:12 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: KF to write guideline on media speed like 4.9.6 [10]
- 18:32:12 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-irc#T18-18-27
- 18:32:12 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Jallan to create 4.9.x Track Enable/Disable of Time-Based Media [11]
- 18:32:12 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-irc#T18-22-07