IRC log of ua on 2009-09-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:24:44 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #ua
16:24:44 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-irc
16:24:46 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs public
16:24:46 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #ua
16:24:48 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:24:48 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 36 minutes
16:24:49 [trackbot]: Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:24:49 [trackbot]: Date: 17 September 2009
16:26:04 [kford]: Chair: Jim_allan
16:26:25 [kford]: Regrets:Henny, Kim
16:27:29 [kford]: regrets+Jan
16:28:31 [kford]: Agenda+ Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?
16:28:32 [kford]: Agenda+ Face to face – sign up and book hotel - http://www.w3.org/2009/11/TPAC/
16:28:34 [kford]: Agenda+ beta W3 site – http://beta.w3.org. Activities listed at http://beta.w3.org/Consortium/activities.html
16:28:35 [kford]: Agenda+ Discuss part of survey not talked about from http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090722/
16:28:37 [kford]: Agenda+ Talk about Guideline 4.9 Provide control of content that may reduce accessibility.
16:28:38 [kford]: Agenda+ review any new proposals sent to list
16:28:40 [kford]: Agenda+ Think about techniques in preparation for F2F.
16:28:41 [kford]: - UAAG10 Techniques
16:28:43 [kford]: http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/NOTE-UAAG10-TECHS-20021217/
16:28:45 [kford]: - ATAG Techniques
16:28:46 [kford]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/AU/2009/ED-ATAG20-TECHS-20090814/#gl-Web-based-accessi
16:28:48 [kford]: ble
16:28:49 [kford]: - WCAG20 Techniques http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/
16:29:18 [kford]: rrsagent, make minutes
16:29:18 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-minutes.html kford
16:53:13 [Greg]: Greg has joined #ua
16:58:15 [AllanJ]: AllanJ has joined #ua
16:58:53 [mth]: mth has joined #ua
17:00:02 [Zakim]: WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
17:00:09 [Zakim]: + +1.425.895.aaaa
17:00:27 [jeanne]: jeanne has joined #ua
17:00:32 [jeanne]: zakim, code?
17:00:32 [Zakim]: the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jeanne
17:00:55 [Zakim]: +Jeanne
17:01:15 [Zakim]: +AllanJ
17:01:17 [Zakim]: -AllanJ
17:01:38 [sharper]: sharper has joined #ua
17:01:45 [sharper]: zakim, code?
17:01:45 [Zakim]: the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), sharper
17:01:57 [Zakim]: +AllanJ
17:02:30 [Zakim]: +??P8
17:02:32 [sharper]: zakim, ??P8 is sharper
17:02:32 [Zakim]: +sharper; got it
17:03:15 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
17:03:47 [kford]: zakim, microsoft is kford
17:03:47 [Zakim]: +kford; got it
17:04:14 [Zakim]: +conrad
17:04:51 [jeanne]: zakim, conrad is really mth
17:04:51 [Zakim]: +mth; got it
17:05:40 [kford]: Scribe: kford
17:05:59 [kford]: zakim, take up item 1
17:05:59 [Zakim]: agendum 1. "Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?" taken up [from kford]
17:06:33 [kford]: zakim, ttake up item 2
17:06:33 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'ttake up item 2', kford
17:06:41 [kford]: zakim, close item 1
17:06:41 [Zakim]: agendum 1, Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?, closed
17:06:43 [Zakim]: I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:06:44 [Zakim]: 2. Face to face – sign up and book hotel - http://www.w3.org/2009/11/TPAC/ [from kford]
17:06:55 [kford]: zakim, take up item 2
17:06:55 [Zakim]: agendum 2. "Face to face – sign up and book hotel - http://www.w3.org/2009/11/TPAC/" taken up [from kford]
17:07:21 [kford]: Jim: Reminderif you are attending the F2F please sign up now.
17:08:22 [kford]: Jeanne: Clarifies what registration is about.
17:10:40 [kford]: zakim, close item 2
17:10:40 [Zakim]: agendum 2, Face to face – sign up and book hotel - http://www.w3.org/2009/11/TPAC/, closed
17:10:42 [Zakim]: I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:10:43 [Zakim]: 3. beta W3 site – http://beta.w3.org. Activities listed at http://beta.w3.org/Consortium/activities.html [from kford]
17:10:55 [kford]: zakim, take up item 3
17:10:55 [Zakim]: agendum 3. "beta W3 site – http://beta.w3.org. Activities listed at http://beta.w3.org/Consortium/activities.html" taken up [from kford]
17:11:21 [kford]: Jim: W3C has a new beta site. Please take a look.
17:12:00 [kford]: Greg: I did take a look and it seemed buggy. I followed a link, hit back and there was twice as much content.
17:12:25 [kford]: Greg: Also, some of the headings changed text while I was viewing.
17:14:05 [kford]: Probably best to use feedback link at the bottom of the page to report issues.
17:14:43 [kford]: Jim: Note there's a big section on browsers and authoring tools.
17:14:58 [kford]: Jeanne: We make it in user agents and accessibility.
17:15:24 [kford]: Greg: They've chosen some items tht make visual use hard. Sizes are small and underlining is problematic.
17:15:43 [kford]: s/tht/that
17:15:54 [kford]: zakim, close item 3
17:15:54 [Zakim]: agendum 3, beta W3 site – http://beta.w3.org. Activities listed at http://beta.w3.org/Consortium/activities.html, closed
17:15:56 [Zakim]: I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:15:57 [Zakim]: 4. Discuss part of survey not talked about from http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090722/ [from kford]
17:16:33 [kford]: zakim, take up item 5
17:16:33 [Zakim]: agendum 5. "Talk about Guideline 4.9 Provide control of content that may reduce accessibility." taken up [from kford]
17:16:54 [AllanJ]: http://www.w3.org/TR/UAAG20/#principle-operable
17:17:57 [Greg]: 4.9 currently seems to be a catch-all for multimedia, scripting, plus a few other things like text scaling. It makes no sense to me.
17:18:20 [kford]: rrsagent, make minutes
17:18:20 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-minutes.html kford
17:19:08 [kford]: Greg: Also expressed concerns related to ISO with current 4.9.
17:19:59 [Greg]: Here are some possibly relevant success criteria from ISO 9241-171:
17:20:04 [Greg]: •8.2.7 Enable user control of timed responses
17:20:06 [Greg]: •10.1.2 Enable user control of time-sensitive presentation of information
17:20:07 [Greg]: •10.1.3 Provide accessible alternatives to task-relevant audio and video
17:20:08 [Greg]: •10.2.1 Enable users to adjust graphic attributes
17:20:10 [Greg]: •10.6.5 Control of background and other sound tracks
17:20:11 [Greg]: •10.6.7 Allow users to choose visual alternative for audio output
17:20:13 [Greg]: •10.6.8 Synchronize audio equivalents for visual events
17:20:14 [Greg]: •10.7 Text equivalents of audio (captions)
17:20:16 [Greg]: •10.8.1 Enable users to stop, start and pause
17:20:18 [Greg]: •10.8.2 Enable users to replay, rewind, pause and fast-or jump-forward
17:20:19 [Greg]: •10.8.3 Allow user to control presentation of multiple media streams
17:20:21 [Greg]: •10.8.4 Update equivalent alternatives for media when the media changes
17:22:14 [kford]: Jeanne: One thing we've been looking at in ATAG is organizing around ways that are useful to people using guidelines. If we have this many multimedia maybe we need to separate?
17:22:38 [kford]: Jim: We talked about this last week. Greg, isn't ISO arranged around functional criteria.
17:23:12 [kford]: Greg: To some degree, sect 9 is input, sect. 10 is output for example.
17:24:47 [kford]: Greg to show table of contents to e-mail list.
17:26:07 [kford]: regrets+David
17:26:32 [kford]: Jim: Seems this is the 2nd or 3rd time a restructure has come up.
17:26:59 [kford]: Jeanne:I'd like to be clear that I don't think we should change the top level from WCAG. Within the broad sections we may want to organize.
17:29:48 [kford]: Greg: We probably don't want to have something like text scaling in the multimedia section by and large.
17:30:05 [kford]: Greg: People looking for it won't find it there.
17:30:31 [kford]: Jeanne: We've sometimes used 4.9 as a dumping ground. We should probably look at see if everything there still belongs.
17:33:26 [kford]: Group talks more about what's in 4.9 and how it does/does not relate to multimedia.
17:33:43 [kford]: Currently we have some stuff on Javascript and such.
17:34:21 [kford]: Jim: When we put these in 4.9.4 wqas really don't just play a movie, start with some placeholder and let me decide when to start.
17:34:40 [kford]: s/wqas/was
17:37:58 [AllanJ]: KF: sort out execution. is the rest of 4.9 ok
17:38:45 [kford]: More talk about execution and the multimedia. Questions around how this relates to html 5.MH: Looking at execution item, HTML has a concept of a poster frame. If you use the video element you have an author defined frame that sits there until you start the video.
17:38:51 [AllanJ]: MH: HTML 5 uses 'poster frame' for 4.9.4 'execution placeholder'
17:39:35 [kford]: MH: We should try and align with the HTML5 spec.
17:40:11 [kford]: Action: MH to square HTML5 with 4.9.
17:40:12 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-226 - Square HTML5 with 4.9. [on Markku Hakkinen - due 2009-09-24].
17:40:58 [kford]: Jim: Looking at 4.9F and 4.97. They sound the same to me.
17:42:48 [Greg]: ANSI 200.2 10.1.2 Enable user control of time-sensitive presentation of information (Level 1)
17:42:49 [Greg]: Whenever moving, blinking, scrolling, or auto-updating information other than simple progress indicators is presented, software should enable the user to pause or stop the presentation.
17:43:18 [Greg]: 10.8.1 Enable users to stop, start and pause media (Level 1)
17:43:19 [Greg]: Software should enable users to stop, start and pause the presentation.
17:43:21 [Greg]: 10.8.2 Enable users to replay, rewind, pause and fast or jump forward (Level 2)
17:43:22 [Greg]: Software should enable users to replay, rewind, pause and fast or jump forward the presentation, where appropriate to the task.
17:45:27 [kford]: Group talks about clarification of navigation in multimedia.
17:45:49 [kford]: MH: I think navigation in media now also means you need to navigate structurally, not just by time.
17:46:34 [kford]: Greg: We have to be careful that we word this in such a way that this is around when the meida content supports this structural navigation.
17:46:59 [kford]: s/meida/media
17:47:45 [kford]: Jim: We we change 4.9.8 to only time concepts.
17:48:04 [kford]: Jim: We then create a new checkpoing around supporting structural.
17:48:23 [kford]: MH: I think we try and support this all in one.
17:49:07 [kford]: MH: You are starting to see this for example on youtube where you can jump to annotations or specific elements in the video.
17:50:07 [kford]: Action: MH to update 4.9.8 to reflect concepts of both time and structural navigation in media.
17:50:07 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-227 - Update 4.9.8 to reflect concepts of both time and structural navigation in media. [on Markku Hakkinen - due 2009-09-24].
17:50:56 [kford]: Group talking about how this impacts 4.6 and 4.7 with text search and structural navigation.
17:51:09 [kford]: rrsagent, make minutes
17:51:09 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-minutes.html kford
17:51:37 [AllanJ]: issue: cross referencing text search, structured navigation, with media info
17:51:37 [trackbot]: Created ISSUE-44 - Cross referencing text search, structured navigation, with media info ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/44/edit .
17:52:08 [kford]: Greg: We previously talked about extending text search to talk about more than just text, but also other content like media and such where searchable contnet is now available.
17:52:28 [Greg]: rendered text and/or (user's choice) alternative text
17:52:46 [kford]: s/contnet/content
17:53:05 [kford]: Jim: I don't think we ever came up with text to reflect this that has made it in the document.
17:53:35 [kford]: Jim: Wait, it is in 4..1.
17:54:23 [kford]: Greg: It isn't clear that the user should be able to jump to the video that contains this text.
17:54:45 [kford]: Jim: Reads example from 4.6.3 where he says this does support this.
17:55:12 [kford]: Greg: From a techniques standpoint this is problematic.
17:56:05 [kford]: Greg: I bring up a web page but don't play the video. I search for Greg and it appears 15 minutes in the video.
17:56:28 [kford]: Simon: I already have an action on me from earlier to update 4.6.
17:57:10 [kford]: Jim: Can we remove 4.9.f becuase it is covered in 4.9.7?
17:57:32 [kford]: Action: Jeanne remove 4.9.f
17:57:32 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-228 - Remove 4.9.f [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-09-24].
17:59:23 [kford]: MH: 4.9.f talks about paused media i.e. a paused state. Do we reference someplace else this paused state?
18:00:36 [AllanJ]: action: allanj to review Nice F2F minutes for clarity on 4.9.f Puaused mulimedia
18:00:36 [trackbot]: Sorry, couldn't find user - allanj
18:01:01 [AllanJ]: action: jallan to review Nice F2F minutes for clarity on 4.9.f Paused multimedia
18:01:01 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-229 - Review Nice F2F minutes for clarity on 4.9.f Paused multimedia [on Jim Allan - due 2009-09-24].
18:03:26 [AllanJ]: KF: need or desire for speeding up media.
18:05:12 [kford]: Group talked about speeding up media. KFord game example of reading books at faster rate of speech.
18:05:22 [AllanJ]: MH: if you create slow down algorithm, then you have the speed up capability
18:05:26 [Greg]: 10.6.4 Enable adjustment of audio output
18:05:28 [Greg]: Software should enable users to adjust the attributes of task-relevant audio output such as frequency, speed and sound content.
18:05:45 [kford]: s/game/gave
18:06:31 [kford]: Jim: We we want to rewrite 4.9.6 to include speed.
18:07:41 [kford]: Group talks about technical ability to speed content up.
18:08:28 [kford]: MH: Once you have the ability to slow, youhave the ability to speed, excluding live media.
18:09:09 [AllanJ]: KF: difference between speed up and fast forward.
18:10:09 [AllanJ]: ...3 concepts - 1 jump, 2 fast forward - no or little perception of what is going past, 3 speed up - content goes faster, and user can perceive
18:10:46 [AllanJ]: ...1 jump, is skip to new point with no perception of intervening content
18:12:21 [AllanJ]: KF: want a duplicate of 4.9.6 that addresses speed.
18:13:12 [kford]: Action: kford to create a guideline to address speeding up of media. Look at 4.9.6.
18:13:12 [trackbot]: Sorry, couldn't find user - kford
18:14:23 [kford]: Action: kford to create guideline similar to 4.9.6 for increasing media speed.
18:14:23 [trackbot]: Sorry, couldn't find user - kford
18:15:23 [Greg]: ISO 10.6.5 Control of background and other sound tracks
18:15:25 [Greg]: If the background and other sound layers are separate audio tracks/channels, software should provide a mechanism to enable users to control the volume of and/or turn on/off each audio track.
18:16:09 [kford]: Action: KFord write guideline on media speed like 4.9.6
18:16:09 [trackbot]: Sorry, couldn't find user - KFord
18:17:19 [Greg]: NOTEBackground sounds (e.g. sound effects, music) can mask speech audio or make speech audio more difficult to
18:17:21 [Greg]: distinguish by those who are hard of hearing.
18:17:22 [Greg]: EXAMPLEA person who is hard of hearing turns down the background sound so they can understand the dialogue
18:17:39 [jeanne]: action: kford to write guideline on media speed like 4.9.6
18:17:39 [trackbot]: Sorry, couldn't find user - kford
18:17:58 [AllanJ]: user needs ability to control which caption, audio, and descriptive video tracks are playing
18:18:27 [jeanne]: action: KF to write guideline on media speed like 4.9.6
18:18:27 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-230 - Write guideline on media speed like 4.9.6 [on Kelly Ford - due 2009-09-24].
18:18:36 [Greg]: The ISO success criterion is trying to be general and basically say "the user should be able to independently control any audio that can (technically) be separately controlled."
18:20:01 [kford]: Group talking more about media with multiple tracks.
18:22:07 [AllanJ]: Action: Jallan to create 4.9.x Track Enable/Disable of Time-Based Media
18:22:07 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-231 - Create 4.9.x Track Enable/Disable of Time-Based Media [on Jim Allan - due 2009-09-24].
18:23:48 [kford]: More discussion of what tracks people should be able to get from media.
18:24:04 [kford]: Just one language, maybe just audio.
18:24:30 [Greg]: Suggest being more generic than just adjusting audio: someone blind or with low vandwidth connection might want to hide the video and only get the text and/or audio.
18:25:57 [kford]: zakim, take up item 7
18:25:57 [Zakim]: agendum 7. "Think about techniques in preparation for F2F." taken up [from kford]
18:26:30 [kford]: Jim: F2F is still six weeks out. Start to think about what we can do in preparation to be successful.
18:26:46 [kford]: Jim: Specifically, techniques.
18:27:36 [Zakim]: -kford
18:27:47 [kford]: rrsagent, amke minutes
18:27:47 [RRSAgent]: I'm logging. I don't understand 'amke minutes', kford. Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:27:55 [Zakim]: - +1.425.895.aaaa
18:28:01 [Zakim]: -sharper
18:28:02 [kford]: rrsagent, make minutes
18:28:02 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-minutes.html kford
18:28:13 [Zakim]: -mth
18:29:37 [kford]: Present:Jim, Greg, Kelly, Simon, Jeanne, Mark
18:29:46 [kford]: rrsagent, make minutes
18:29:46 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-minutes.html kford
18:31:57 [kford]: zakim, please part
18:31:57 [Zakim]: leaving. As of this point the attendees were +1.425.895.aaaa, Jeanne, AllanJ, sharper, kford, mth
18:31:57 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #ua
18:32:12 [kford]: rrsagent, please part
18:32:12 [RRSAgent]: I see 11 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-actions.rdf :
18:32:12 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: MH to square HTML5 with 4.9. [1]
18:32:12 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-irc#T17-40-11
18:32:12 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: MH to update 4.9.8 to reflect concepts of both time and structural navigation in media. [2]
18:32:12 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-irc#T17-50-07
18:32:12 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Jeanne remove 4.9.f [3]
18:32:12 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-irc#T17-57-32
18:32:12 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: allanj to review Nice F2F minutes for clarity on 4.9.f Puaused mulimedia [4]
18:32:12 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-irc#T18-00-36
18:32:12 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: jallan to review Nice F2F minutes for clarity on 4.9.f Paused multimedia [5]
18:32:12 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-irc#T18-01-01
18:32:12 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: kford to create a guideline to address speeding up of media. Look at 4.9.6. [6]
18:32:12 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-irc#T18-13-12
18:32:12 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: kford to create guideline similar to 4.9.6 for increasing media speed. [7]
18:32:12 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-irc#T18-14-23
18:32:12 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: KFord write guideline on media speed like 4.9.6 [8]
18:32:12 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-irc#T18-16-09
18:32:12 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: kford to write guideline on media speed like 4.9.6 [9]
18:32:12 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-irc#T18-17-39
18:32:12 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: KF to write guideline on media speed like 4.9.6 [10]
18:32:12 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-irc#T18-18-27
18:32:12 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Jallan to create 4.9.x Track Enable/Disable of Time-Based Media [11]
18:32:12 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-ua-irc#T18-22-07