12:01:01 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #mediaann
12:01:01 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-mediaann-irc
12:01:03 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
12:01:04 <joakim> zakim, this is mawg
12:01:04 <Zakim> ok, joakim; that matches IA_MAWG()8:00AM
12:01:05 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be MAWG
12:01:05 <Zakim> + +31.20.598.aacc
12:01:06 <trackbot> Meeting: Media Annotations Working Group Teleconference
12:01:06 <trackbot> Date: 15 September 2009
12:01:06 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see IA_MAWG()8:00AM already started
12:01:14 <Zakim> + +46.1.07.19.aadd
12:01:31 <pchampin> pchampin has joined #mediaann
12:02:14 <Zakim> +raphael
12:02:37 <Zakim> + +049851509aaee
12:02:41 <tmichel> tmichel has joined #mediaann
12:02:41 <raphael> zakim, aaaa is Chris
12:02:41 <Zakim> +Chris; got it
12:02:44 <veroniqueM> veroniqueM has joined #mediaann
12:02:50 <florian> Zakim aaee is me
12:02:54 <florian> Zakim, aaee is me
12:02:54 <Zakim> +florian; got it
12:03:00 <raphael> zakim, aacc is veronique
12:03:00 <Zakim> +veronique; got it
12:03:17 <Zakim> +tmichel
12:03:21 <joakim> Zakim, +46.1.07.19.aadd is me,
12:03:21 <Zakim> +me,; got it
12:03:57 <raphael> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-annotation/2009Sep/0033.html
12:04:06 <raphael> Chair: Joakim
12:04:10 <raphael> Scribe: raphael
12:04:13 <raphael> scribenick: raphael
12:04:27 <raphael> Topic: 1. Admin
12:04:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-mediaann-minutes.html raphael
12:04:35 <joakim> http://www.w3.org/2009/09/08-mediaann-minutes.html
12:05:36 <raphael> Proposal to accept minutes of last week telecon
12:05:57 <wonsuk> wonsuk has joined #mediaann
12:06:08 <raphael> Regrets: Tobias, Werner, Felix
12:06:39 <raphael> Present: Joakim, Chris, Florian, Raphael, Veronique, Pierre Antoine, Thierry, Wonsuk, Daniel
12:06:48 <raphael> No objections, minutes accepted
12:06:48 <pchampin> i volunteer
12:07:01 <Zakim> +wonsuk
12:07:03 <raphael> Pierre Antoine volunteered for scribing next week meeting
12:07:30 <raphael> zakim, me is Joakim
12:07:30 <Zakim> +Joakim; got it
12:07:39 <raphael> Topic: 2. Action items
12:07:40 <joakim> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/track/actions/open
12:08:11 <raphael> ACTION-124?
12:08:11 <trackbot> ACTION-124 -- Felix Sasaki to check - everybody responsible for a format: add a column describing syntactic information ("data types", see cable lab column "Type") to his table -- due 2009-06-16 -- OPEN
12:08:11 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/track/actions/124
12:08:28 <raphael> -- ongoing
12:08:34 <raphael> ACTION-134?
12:08:34 <trackbot> ACTION-134 -- David Singer to revise e-mail on issues/updates of property description -- due 2009-07-02 -- OPEN
12:08:34 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/track/actions/134
12:08:42 <raphael> -- ongoing
12:08:45 <raphael> ACTION-135?
12:08:45 <trackbot> ACTION-135 -- David Singer to update description of location to represent shot location -- due 2009-07-02 -- OPEN
12:08:45 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/track/actions/135
12:08:52 <raphael> -- ongoing
12:08:54 <raphael> ACTION-136?
12:08:55 <trackbot> ACTION-136 -- Joakim Söderberg to will refine the subtypes, like ma:contributor, ma:publisher etc. -- due 2009-07-02 -- OPEN
12:08:55 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/track/actions/136
12:09:04 <raphael> Joakim: I put a link on the wiki
12:09:13 <raphael> close ACTION-136
12:09:13 <trackbot> ACTION-136 Will refine the subtypes, like ma:contributor, ma:publisher etc. closed
12:09:28 <raphael> ACTION-148?
12:09:28 <trackbot> ACTION-148 -- WonSuk Lee to start work and collaboration on the API draft document -- due 2009-07-03 -- OPEN
12:09:28 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/track/actions/148
12:10:15 <raphael> Wonsuk: you have all received the email from Florian about the issues
12:10:22 <raphael> ... I suggest we discuss these issues
12:10:48 <raphael> Joakim: we will discuss them in the next agenda item, we can close this AP
12:10:52 <raphael> close ACTION-148
12:10:52 <trackbot> ACTION-148 Start work and collaboration on the API draft document closed
12:11:11 <raphael> ACTION-151?
12:11:11 <trackbot> ACTION-151 -- Werner Bailer to formulate an answer on the feed back from PFWG (Protocols and Formats WG) -- due 2009-09-08 -- OPEN
12:11:11 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/track/actions/151
12:11:26 <raphael> Werner did that and we sent our review
12:11:31 <raphael> close ACTION-151
12:11:31 <trackbot> ACTION-151 Formulate an answer on the feed back from PFWG (Protocols and Formats WG) closed
12:11:38 <raphael> ACTION-152
12:11:42 <raphael> ACTION-152?
12:11:42 <trackbot> ACTION-152 -- Thierry Michel to look into web idl with victor and others -- due 2009-09-15 -- OPEN
12:11:42 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/track/actions/152
12:12:00 <raphael> Thierry: i start a thread discussion, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-annotation/2009Sep/0035.html
12:12:13 <raphael> ... Victor confirmed that WebIDL could be used, as we do video on the web
12:12:29 <raphael> ... no bindings for C++, but more tailored to web based applications so fit our purpose
12:12:36 <raphael> ... webidl is anyway close to idl
12:12:41 <pchampin> +1
12:12:42 <raphael> close ACTION-152
12:12:42 <trackbot> ACTION-152 Look into web idl with victor and others closed
12:12:56 <raphael> ACTION-153?
12:12:56 <trackbot> ACTION-153 -- Joakim Söderberg to look into comments from werner on PFWG review -- due 2009-09-15 -- OPEN
12:12:56 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/track/actions/153
12:13:14 <raphael> Joakim: this action is connected to 151
12:13:19 <raphael> close ACTION-153
12:13:19 <trackbot> ACTION-153 Look into comments from werner on PFWG review closed
12:13:26 <raphael> ACTION-154?
12:13:26 <trackbot> ACTION-154 -- Joakim Söderberg to ask dave about the relationship of digital data exchange with Apple stuff, ID3, iTunesXML, etc -- due 2009-09-15 -- OPEN
12:13:26 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/track/actions/154
12:13:40 <raphael> Joakim: I have sent an email but didn't get any answer
12:13:43 <raphael> ... leave it open
12:13:45 <raphael> -- ongoing
12:14:15 <raphael> Topic: 3. Status of First WD of API
12:14:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-mediaann-minutes.html raphael
12:14:37 <joakim> I think this initial draft is a good starting point. But there are a few major things, i am wondering about:
12:14:38 <joakim> a) what about using interfaces as Victor proposed in [1]?
12:14:40 <joakim> b) did we choose one of the two possibilities for the API already (specific vs. common)? AFAIK only a few of us discussed these two different approaches [2].
12:14:41 <joakim> c) the datatypes are only "placeholder" for the finite datatypes, or? Because some of them do not fit their purpose i guess.
12:14:43 <joakim> d) as Victor already pointed out, WebIDL is in scope of our group, so we should bring this discussion to an end and use it...
12:14:44 <joakim> I think we have to discuss this draft more closely in todays telecon.
12:14:54 <florian> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-annotation/2009Sep/0037.html
12:16:16 <raphael> Wonsuk: I haven't received many feedback yet on my document apart from Florian
12:17:25 <raphael> ... you can look at the API description (descriptive properties, identification, creator, content, etc)
12:17:35 <raphael> ... it includes the get and the set methods
12:17:51 <raphael> it describes the interfaces based on ??? implementation
12:18:39 <raphael> Wonsuk: I suggest we discuss the issues mentioned in this document
12:19:20 <raphael> Joakim: you want to discuss the categorization of the properties?
12:19:22 <chris> this classification conforms to the current mapping table
12:21:05 <raphael> s/??? implementation/toy implementation
12:21:59 <raphael> Wonsuk: do you have any questions about this?
12:22:02 <raphael> [silence]
12:22:33 <raphael> Joakim: is this categorization so important ?
12:23:26 <raphael> Document from Victor: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-annotation/2009Aug/att-0007/magw-idl.pdf
12:23:40 <raphael> Document from Wonsuk: replace_URL
12:25:21 <raphael> s/replace_URL/http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-annotation/2009Sep/0037.html
12:25:55 <raphael> Could we please avoir to send documents to individual people? I will remind that this group operates under public, so use the public mailing list
12:26:02 <raphael> s/avoir/avoid
12:26:13 <florian> +1 raphael
12:26:36 <raphael> Joakim: now, we need to discuss the datatypes
12:28:10 <raphael> Wonsuk: the meaning of the RESULT is ... [to complete]
12:28:43 <raphael> Joakim: should we have a section discussing the return types?
12:29:07 <raphael> Wonsuk: yes perhaps, we have String, RESULT, List, Date
12:29:14 <chris> URI
12:30:27 <joakim> I guess it means: sucessful/unsuccesfull
12:30:27 <raphael> Wonsuk: trying to explain again what RESULT is ...
12:30:48 <raphael> ... it means we can parse the result ? (syntactically correct?)
12:31:00 <pchampin> RESULT is what is sometimes called 'status', right?
12:31:25 <joakim> while (RESULT)
12:31:56 <raphael> Wonsuk: yes, for while and if, we can use RESULT, so looks like a boolean evaluation
12:32:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-mediaann-minutes.html raphael
12:33:25 <joakim> I agree
12:33:51 <pchampin> q+ for another question about datatypes
12:35:05 <joakim> 3.     Data type Description
12:35:10 <joakim> 4.     API Description
12:35:41 <raphael> Wonsuk: discussion about identificatin of the co-editors
12:36:09 <raphael> Joakim: Chris, Florian, Werner, Victor?, Wonsuk: who is working on the sections 3 and 4?
12:36:23 <raphael> ... is it clear ? Perhaps someone should work on the datatypes, and someone else on the API
12:36:45 <raphael> Chris: we haven't divided yet the work as you suggested
12:37:02 <raphael> ... Wonsuk has made this first draft but we haven't discussed it yet among the editors
12:37:10 <raphael> ... now is the first time we discuss it
12:37:19 <raphael> ... I will comment it from now on
12:37:24 <raphael> q?
12:37:44 <raphael> Joakim: my suggestion is to divide the work and not introduce bottlenecks
12:37:54 <raphael> Chris: yes, I can live with that
12:37:57 <pchampin> zakim, ack me
12:37:57 <Zakim> unmuting pchampin
12:37:59 <Zakim> pchampin, you wanted to discuss another question about datatypes
12:38:01 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
12:38:34 <raphael> Pierre Antoine: I'm not quite sure it is safe to split the work between datatypes and API
12:39:04 <raphael> ... my proposal would be to split between properties which have structured values as results versus non-structured
12:39:13 <raphael> ... I think this has been mentioned on the list
12:39:29 <raphael> ... but I haven't read yet the follow-up of this dicussion or any decision
12:39:31 <florian> +1
12:39:42 <raphael> ... I would vote for this way of splitting
12:39:52 <joakim> q+
12:39:53 <raphael> Raphael: +1 for PA proposal
12:40:22 <raphael> Chris: We haven't formally defined which properties should have a structured or non-structured values
12:40:39 <raphael> ... we have discussed that briefly at the last f2f, but we wanted to provide examples
12:40:55 <raphael> ... so we can decide which properties will get structured values or unstructured values
12:41:01 <joakim> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/drafts/ontology10/WD/summary.html
12:41:12 <raphael> ... as far as I know, it is undecided yet for the properties
12:41:22 <raphael> zakim, ack joakim
12:41:22 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
12:42:33 <pchampin> I think it is a pre-requisite to working on the actual API
12:42:41 <raphael> ACTION: chris and co-editors (wonsuk, florian, victor, werner) to come up for a proposal for a return type for all properties, i.e. structured or unstructured?
12:42:41 <trackbot> Created ACTION-155 - And co-editors (wonsuk, florian, victor, werner) to come up for a proposal for a return type for all properties, i.e. structured or unstructured? [on Chris Poppe - due 2009-09-22].
12:43:38 <joakim> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-annotation/2009Aug/att-0007/magw-idl.pdf
12:43:44 <raphael> Joakim: in your email Florian, you reference a proposal from Victor
12:44:02 <raphael> Florian: this is an IDL example yes
12:44:04 <ChrisPoppe> ChrisPoppe has joined #mediaann
12:44:21 <raphael> Raphael: can we transform this same example into WebIDL?
12:44:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-mediaann-minutes.html raphael
12:45:00 <raphael> Florian: I think we haven't yet discussed enough Victor's proposal?
12:45:08 <raphael> ... how could we continue to discuss it?
12:45:42 <pchampin> from the WebIDL draft: "An interface is a specification of a set of interface members"
12:46:04 <pchampin> so it seems that WebIDL has interfaces as well
12:46:51 <pchampin> +1 for 1 method per property
12:47:03 <raphael> Raphael: +1 too
12:47:47 <raphael> Joakim: our idea is to indeed use WebIDL now
12:47:59 <raphael> ... How can we really be sure that the API will work?
12:48:09 <raphael> Florian: should we build a reference implementation
12:48:20 <raphael> ... that complements the abstract API documentation
12:48:20 <pchampin> I think Joakim rather means "test cases"
12:48:35 <cpoppe> cpoppe has joined #mediaann
12:48:39 <raphael> ... in the same spirit that the MPEG one
12:49:43 <raphael> Joakim: who should provide reference implementation
12:49:48 <raphael> Raphael: there is no rules for that
12:49:49 <pchampin> if the reference implementations have to pass the same test-cases, does this mean that they have to be in the same language?
12:49:58 <raphael> yes pchampin
12:50:37 <raphael> Thierry: as raphael said, all W3C spec should go through implementations that pass test cases testing all features of the spec
12:50:59 <raphael> Raphael: I suggest you look at the test cases developed by the Media Fragments WG as an example
12:51:04 <pchampin> I plan to update my toy implementation as well
12:51:30 <raphael> Raphael: Media Fragments WG test cases: http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/TestCases
12:51:44 <pchampin> but it's in python, which I don't think will be the final langauge
12:51:49 <pchampin> s/langauge/language/
12:51:53 <pchampin> hence my question...
12:52:13 <raphael> pchampin, the language used for the implementation does not matter
12:52:17 <daniel> daniel has joined #mediaann
12:52:40 <raphael> the test cases should specify, if you encounter feature a, what should you do, and how can you test it does the right thing
12:54:01 <raphael> Wonsuk: if we use WebIDL for the API draft, do we have enough time given that we have not really experts from this group
12:54:06 <raphael> ... it is just my concern
12:54:39 <raphael> Joakim: i will forward the question to the editors, Chris, do you think it is doable?
12:54:51 <raphael> Chris: I think it is, since WebIDL is anyway very close to IDL
12:55:07 <raphael> ... I'm not (yet) a WebIDL expert
12:55:37 <raphael> Raphael: I will remind that Doug Shelpers said that folks from his group would be happy to help us if we are stuck
12:56:12 <raphael> Joakim: next meeting, we can discuss which datatypes to use for each properties
12:56:14 <pchampin> zakim, unmute me
12:56:14 <Zakim> pchampin should no longer be muted
12:56:49 <raphael> Pierre Antoine: I voted for one method per property, I think it is easier to work with
12:57:18 <raphael> ... maybe for some properties, we will give the choice to the developer to use a simple or a structured value
12:57:27 <pchampin> zakim, mute me
12:57:27 <Zakim> pchampin should now be muted
12:57:32 <raphael> ... and in this case, we might provide 2 methods OR a parameter
12:57:56 <raphael> Joakim: thanks for your thoughts
12:58:02 <raphael> Topic: 4. AOB
12:58:07 <raphael> [silence]
12:58:16 <raphael> Joakim: meeting, next Tuesday
12:58:18 <pchampin> bye
12:58:21 <raphael> [adjourned]
12:58:25 <Zakim> -florian
12:58:27 <Zakim> -Joakim
12:58:27 <Zakim> -raphael
12:58:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-mediaann-minutes.html raphael
12:58:28 <Zakim> -veronique
12:58:30 <Zakim> -tmichel
12:58:32 <Zakim> -pchampin
12:58:32 <Zakim> -Chris
12:58:47 <Zakim> -??P2
12:58:52 <Zakim> -wonsuk
12:58:53 <Zakim> IA_MAWG()8:00AM has ended
12:58:55 <Zakim> Attendees were +0329331aaaa, +047269aabb, +31.20.598.aacc, raphael, +049851509aaee, Chris, florian, veronique, pchampin, tmichel, me,, wonsuk, Joakim
12:59:23 <raphael> zakim, bye
12:59:23 <Zakim> Zakim has left #mediaann
12:59:27 <raphael> RRSAgent, bye
12:59:27 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-mediaann-actions.rdf :
12:59:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: chris and co-editors (wonsuk, florian, victor, werner) to come up for a proposal for a return type for all properties, i.e. structured or unstructured? [1]
12:59:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-mediaann-irc#T12-42-41