IRC log of bpwg on 2009-07-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:23:55 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #bpwg
13:23:55 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/07/14-bpwg-irc
13:24:03 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #bpwg
13:24:17 [PhilA2]: zakim, this will be BPWG
13:24:17 [Zakim]: ok, PhilA2; I see MWI_BPWG()9:30AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
13:24:46 [PhilA2]: Topic: Mobile Web Best Practices Weekly telecon
13:25:44 [PhilA2]: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2009Jul/0038.html
13:27:01 [jo]: jo has joined #bpwg
13:27:04 [Zakim]: MWI_BPWG()9:30AM has now started
13:27:11 [Zakim]: +??P5
13:27:21 [jo]: zakim, code?
13:27:21 [Zakim]: the conference code is 2794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jo
13:27:28 [brucel]: brucel has joined #bpwg
13:28:12 [Zakim]: + +03531522aaaa
13:28:22 [jo]: zakim, aaaa is me
13:28:22 [Zakim]: +jo; got it
13:28:54 [Zakim]: +Phil_Archer
13:30:04 [brucel]: please excuse noise from my phone; neighbours are having extension built
13:30:19 [Zakim]: + +0774811aabb
13:30:31 [DKA]: zakim, aabb is DKA
13:30:31 [Zakim]: +DKA; got it
13:30:54 [DKA]: zakim, who is here?
13:30:54 [Zakim]: On the phone I see ??P5, jo, Phil_Archer, DKA
13:30:54 [brucel]: and the builders seemed to show little regard for the importance of our deliberations
13:30:55 [Zakim]: On IRC I see brucel, jo, Zakim, RRSAgent, PhilA2, DKA, trackbot
13:31:06 [EdC]: EdC has joined #bpwg
13:31:45 [Zakim]: + +41.31.972.aacc
13:31:49 [DKA]: zakim, ??p5 is brucel
13:31:49 [Zakim]: +brucel; got it
13:32:26 [DKA]: zakim, who is here?
13:32:26 [Zakim]: On the phone I see brucel, jo, Phil_Archer, DKA, +41.31.972.aacc
13:32:27 [Zakim]: On IRC I see EdC, brucel, jo, Zakim, RRSAgent, PhilA2, DKA, trackbot
13:32:35 [DKA]: zakim, aacc is edc
13:32:35 [Zakim]: +edc; got it
13:34:55 [DKA]: zakim, who is here?
13:34:55 [Zakim]: On the phone I see brucel, jo, Phil_Archer, DKA, edc
13:34:56 [Zakim]: On IRC I see EdC, brucel, jo, Zakim, RRSAgent, PhilA2, DKA, trackbot
13:35:46 [PhilA2]: regrets: Fran�ois, Sangwhan Moon, Miguel Garcia, Tom Hume, Yeliz Yesilada, Ignacio Mar�n
13:35:56 [PhilA2]: scribe: PhilA
13:36:00 [PhilA2]: scribeNick: PhilA
13:36:14 [jsmanrique]: jsmanrique has joined #bpwg
13:36:16 [PhilA2]: Topic: Administrativa
13:36:30 [PhilA2]: Topic: Overlap between Accessibility and MWBP published.
13:36:33 [brucel]: +1 hurrah
13:36:35 [PhilA2]: DKA: Hurrah!
13:36:49 [PhilA2]: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/37584/bpwg-summer09/
13:36:51 [Zakim]: +josema
13:37:12 [jo]: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2009Jul/0038.html
13:37:13 [PhilA2]: s/http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/37584/bpwg-summer09//
13:37:45 [PhilA2]: DKA: Anything else to say about it?
13:37:56 [PhilA2]: DKA: Anything we need to monitor for feedback?
13:38:02 [jo]: s/scribeNick: PhilA/scribeNick: PhilA2/
13:38:05 [PhilA2]: No responses...
13:38:15 [PhilA2]: Topic: Summer schedule
13:38:27 [PhilA2]: DKA: Please fill out the form at http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/37584/bpwg-summer09/
13:38:32 [PhilA2]: DKA: Like I haven't
13:38:46 [cgi-irc]: cgi-irc has joined #bpwg
13:38:59 [PhilA2]: DKA: Results look as if we have 28 July and 4 Aug will have low numbers
13:39:06 [adam]: zakim, code?
13:39:06 [Zakim]: the conference code is 2794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), adam
13:39:22 [PhilA2]: DKA: Perhaps resolve to cancel calls those days?
13:39:49 [PhilA2]: DKA: Let's run it on 21 and 28 July
13:39:53 [Zakim]: + +0207881aadd
13:39:58 [PhilA2]: DKA: No Jo on 4 or 11th
13:39:59 [adam]: zakim, aadd is me
13:39:59 [Zakim]: +adam; got it
13:40:14 [PhilA2]: DKA: Fran�ois might chair on 18th
13:40:27 [PhilA2]: DKA: so we might just cancel 4 Aug
13:40:32 [DKA]: PROPOSED RESOLUTION: We cancel the August 4th teleconf.
13:40:34 [PhilA2]: Jo: When is Adam around?
13:40:48 [PhilA2]: Adam: I think next Tuesday (21) is the only one I can't make
13:41:05 [PhilA2]: Jo: Let's hold them as much as possible
13:41:16 [PhilA2]: DKA: PROPOSED RESOLUTION: We cancel the August 4th teleconf.
13:41:21 [EdC]: +1
13:41:23 [adam]: +1
13:41:28 [DKA]: +1
13:41:28 [jsmanrique]: +1
13:41:30 [PhilA2]: RESOLUTION: We cancel the August 4th teleconf.
13:41:46 [PhilA2]: DKA: Fran�ois will need to chair on 11 August
13:41:58 [DKA]: Francois will have to chair the 11th of August call... (hi Francois!)
13:42:13 [jo]: [that should read: we request that Francois kindly chairs ...]
13:42:48 [PhilA2]: Topic: Update from Adam on MWABP
13:43:10 [PhilA2]: Adam: I'm sorry - I didn't get around to the desirable goals stuff. It will be done tomorrow
13:43:32 [PhilA2]: Adam: I hereby solemnly swear I will post something on this tomorrow
13:43:46 [jo]: ISSUE-292?
13:43:46 [trackbot]: ISSUE-292 -- Need example of use of Fragment ID and Brwoser History -- OPEN
13:43:46 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/292
13:44:03 [jo]: ISSUE-293?
13:44:03 [trackbot]: ISSUE-293 -- Should there be a Best Practice noting that pixel density on mobile devices is typically greater than desktop? or is BP1 [MEASURES] sufficient? -- OPEN
13:44:03 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/293
13:44:20 [jo]: close ISSUE-292
13:44:20 [trackbot]: ISSUE-292 Need example of use of Fragment ID and Brwoser History closed
13:44:24 [PhilA2]: Adam: That can be closed
13:44:33 [PhilA2]: Jo: 293 is also unassigned
13:45:10 [PhilA2]: DKA: This has been around since 25 March and seems to be silent
13:45:25 [PhilA2]: ... doesn't say who raised it (probably FD)
13:46:54 [PhilA2]: DKA: I don't think this is really relevant to MWABP
13:47:17 [PhilA2]: ... it might have been somthing for BP in the DDC discussion but doesn't seem like it's a mobile web app or advanced capability issue
13:47:18 [SeanP]: SeanP has joined #bpwg
13:47:39 [PhilA2]: DKA: PROPOSED RESOLUTION - close issue 293
13:47:45 [adam]: +1
13:47:46 [DKA]: PROPOSED RESOLUTION: close issue-293 and do nothing here regarding pixel density in MWABP.
13:47:49 [DKA]: +1
13:47:54 [jo]: ISSUE-297?
13:47:54 [trackbot]: ISSUE-297 -- Should we have a BP on appcache? -- OPEN
13:47:54 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/297
13:47:57 [EdC]: 0
13:48:01 [PhilA2]: RESOLUTION: close issue-293 and do nothing here regarding pixel density in MWABP.
13:48:11 [jo]: close ISSUE-293
13:48:11 [trackbot]: ISSUE-293 Should there be a Best Practice noting that pixel density on mobile devices is typically greater than desktop? or is BP1 [MEASURES] sufficient? closed
13:48:31 [PhilA2]: Topic: Issue 297
13:48:34 [PhilA2]: Adam: this is done
13:48:39 [jo]: close ISSUE-297
13:48:39 [trackbot]: ISSUE-297 Should we have a BP on appcache? closed
13:48:45 [Zakim]: + +1.630.414.aaee
13:48:54 [SeanP]: Zakim, aaee is me
13:48:54 [Zakim]: +SeanP; got it
13:49:45 [PhilA2]: Jo: We have only 6 open issues, 2 on mOK scheme
13:49:59 [DKA]: PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Close Issue-250 and issue-283
13:49:59 [jo]: close ISSUE-250
13:49:59 [trackbot]: ISSUE-250 The mobileOK License closed
13:50:07 [PhilA2]: Jo: Shall I just close them?
13:50:10 [jo]: close ISSUE-283
13:50:10 [trackbot]: ISSUE-283 a microformat for mobileOK trustmark closed
13:50:15 [DKA]: +1
13:50:20 [PhilA2]: RESOLUTION: Close Issue-250 and issue-283
13:50:38 [PhilA2]: DKA: So that leaves 4 open issues, one of which is the desirable goals thing that we've talked about
13:51:05 [PhilA2]: DKA: WE really do have an open issue (294) around Media Queries
13:51:15 [PhilA2]: DKA: Jo nad Dan agree that it is an issue
13:51:20 [PhilA2]: s/nad/and/
13:51:40 [PhilA2]: Jo: we have lots of open action items
13:51:46 [PhilA2]: DKA: We mostly looked at issues last week
13:51:56 [PhilA2]: DKA: Shall we talk about Media Queries?
13:52:06 [PhilA2]: yes! they all shouted
13:52:12 [DKA]: Topic: Media Queries in MWABP
13:52:26 [PhilA2]: DKA: Lots of different points of view on the mailing list
13:52:49 [PhilA2]: ... I'd like to find a way to include some good info on MQ
13:53:02 [PhilA2]: ... it'll be a disservice to our audience if we don't include info on it
13:53:08 [jo]: PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Mention that anything you can do with CSS media queries is more conveniently done somehow else
13:53:18 [PhilA2]: ... but neither shoudl we propose them as a panacea
13:53:35 [brucel]: permission to speak?
13:53:44 [jo]: q+ brucel
13:53:51 [PhilA2]: DKA: My porposal is that we put somne text in the doc that shows that can be done and also include a note that implementation is not uniform
13:54:02 [DKA]: ack bru
13:54:03 [PhilA2]: ... does that make sense as a framework?
13:54:27 [PhilA2]: bruce: Yes, it makes sense. I wrote some stuff on the list that developers might find this simpler to implement
13:54:43 [PhilA2]: ... but for what they are can be considerably simpler than JS and server-side detect
13:54:49 [PhilA2]: ... I've found them useful
13:55:33 [DKA]: PROPOSED RESOLUTION: enumerate some examples of how CSS media queries can be effectively used (based on our discussion on-list), and then include a warning about the varied level of implementation across different user agents...
13:56:20 [PhilA2]: Adam:L I don't see that MQ is any more or less supported than otehr things we talk about
13:56:38 [PhilA2]: DKA: But someone might look at the spec andassume that MQ is widely and uniformly supported
13:56:38 [brucel]: q about the warning: does it "date" the document, is that OK in a best practice document?
13:56:55 [PhilA2]: DKA: I think it might deserve special mention in this case
13:56:57 [DKA]: ack bru
13:57:00 [jo]: q+ to mumble on a bit about this
13:57:24 [PhilA2]: Bruce: If we warn about implemetation or does that build in obsolescence
13:57:46 [DKA]: ack jo
13:57:46 [Zakim]: jo, you wanted to mumble on a bit about this
13:57:47 [PhilA2]: DKA: We can say something like "at the time of writing, implementation is not uniform but we anticipate better support..."
13:57:52 [DKA]: :)
13:58:19 [PhilA2]: Jo: As Eduardo and I have said that there are few contexts where there isn't a simpler solution
13:58:31 [adam]: q+
13:58:33 [PhilA2]: Jo: I think we're shoving stuff in the doc for the sake of it
13:58:42 [PhilA2]: Jo: Eduardo? WDYT?
13:59:04 [PhilA2]: EdC; From what I have seen, the MQ is used to select the stylesheets and never used without resorting to MT
13:59:13 [PhilA2]: s/EdC;/EdC:
13:59:30 [PhilA2]: ... if you are doing some device switching logic, then do that on the server
13:59:50 [PhilA2]: ... if not, if you can't do it on the server, then I'm open minded whether JS or MQ is the better route
14:00:01 [PhilA2]: ... I'm not sure on that last point
14:00:19 [PhilA2]: ... Not sure that curent implementations of MQ can do what JS can do and vice versa
14:00:25 [DKA]: PROPOSED RESOLUTION: enumerate some examples of how CSS media queries can be effectively used (based on our discussion on-list), stressing that when these are used for media switching doing it on the server should be favored, and then include a warning about the varied level of implementation across different user agents...
14:00:34 [brucel]: q+
14:00:39 [DKA]: ack adam
14:01:19 [PhilA2]: adam: To Jo's point - well, if MQ work in some cases then it seems preferable to me
14:01:26 [PhilA2]: .. (to JavaScript)
14:01:33 [jo]: q+ to question whether there is any justification for thinking that a browser that supports media queries doesn't offer exactly the same functionality in JavaScript - and you can't really have a Mobile Web App without Javascript
14:01:40 [PhilA2]: ... I thinkm it's worth putting them in and saying 'consider using them'
14:01:53 [DKA]: ack brucel
14:01:55 [PhilA2]: ... as for EdC's comment then I would say it looks more maintainable and doable than JS
14:02:00 [PhilA2]: bruce: What Adam said
14:02:02 [DKA]: ack jo
14:02:09 [PhilA2]: PhilA: FWIW - +1 to Adam
14:02:18 [Zakim]: jo, you wanted to question whether there is any justification for thinking that a browser that supports media queries doesn't offer exactly the same functionality in JavaScript -
14:02:23 [Zakim]: ... and you can't really have a Mobile Web App without Javascript
14:02:38 [EdC]: q+
14:02:42 [PhilA2]: Jo: it seems that this doc talks a lot about using JS and now we're saying don't use JS use this to achieve this end
14:02:54 [PhilA2]: ack ed
14:02:57 [DKA]: ack edc
14:03:42 [brucel]: q+
14:03:58 [PhilA2]: DKA: I'm not sure why you have to sue the MT as well as the MQ
14:04:09 [DKA]: q?
14:04:10 [jo]: s/sue/use/
14:04:11 [PhilA2]: ... there seem to be examples on the list where you can use MQ without
14:04:23 [PhilA2]: EdC: the largest part of the usage is to select the stylesheet
14:04:40 [PhilA2]: EdC: For clients that don't support MQ then you use MT
14:05:03 [PhilA2]: EdC: But if that's the only way to do it on the client then OK
14:05:11 [PhilA2]: ... maybe give the links I gave as examples
14:05:27 [PhilA2]: .. those articles have extensive comments on what they can and can't achieve
14:05:34 [DKA]: q?
14:05:37 [DKA]: ack bru
14:06:22 [PhilA2]: bruce: Eduardo said that some agents don't handle MQ and you have to sue MT - true. but it seems to me that you're saying because you have to do something rubbish for clients that don't do this you have to do that instead
14:06:36 [jo]: s/sue/use/
14:06:52 [PhilA2]: ... to Jo's point - JS is clearly necessary for apps but not display - that's the job of CSS
14:07:28 [PhilA2]: ... selecting between typing a name and selecting from a list - that's JavaScript
14:07:41 [PhilA2]: .. but changing widths, colours etc. seems what CSS is for
14:07:43 [DKA]: q?
14:07:45 [DKA]: :)
14:07:52 [PhilA2]: q+
14:07:59 [jo]: [have nothing further to add]
14:08:00 [DKA]: ack phila
14:09:25 [PhilA2]: PhilA: Rambled on a bit about supprting use for MQ as a reasonable method
14:09:36 [PhilA2]: ... without saying thou shalt not use JS
14:09:53 [DKA]: PROPOSED RESOLUTION: We should include information on use of CSS media queries, with some caveats (e.g. that it is preferred to do media switching on the server side and that the support for MQ at this time is highly variable). We should also warn people against use of media types.
14:10:18 [brucel]: WFM
14:10:37 [PhilA2]: DKA: I'm not trying to write the text here. We still recommend server-side switching where poissible
14:10:39 [EdC]: Warn people against use of media types: because devices have diverging interpretations thereof.
14:10:43 [PhilA2]: ... may want to include a warning on MT
14:10:57 [adam]: +1
14:10:58 [brucel]: and we give it as an alternative to server-side JS heathrobinsonism without saying it's better
14:10:59 [PhilA2]: ... EdC is right, if you rely on MT you're not going to succceed
14:11:00 [jo]: s/poissible/possible/
14:11:08 [PhilA2]: PROPOSED RESOLUTION: We should include information on use of CSS media queries, with some caveats (e.g. that it is preferred to do media switching on the server side and that the support for MQ at this time is highly variable). We should also warn people against use of media types.
14:11:17 [adam]: +1
14:11:27 [DKA]: +1
14:11:48 [EdC]: +1
14:11:58 [PhilA2]: PhilA: Can we include the references EdC suggested?
14:12:00 [PhilA2]: DKA: Yes
14:12:09 [PhilA2]: Adam: I can write this up as a first pass
14:12:10 [jo]: 0
14:12:14 [PhilA2]: RESOLUTION: We should include information on use of CSS media queries, with some caveats (e.g. that it is preferred to do media switching on the server side and that the support for MQ at this time is highly variable). We should also warn people against use of media types.
14:12:39 [PhilA2]: action: Adam to write first text based on the listserve discussion of Media Queries
14:12:39 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-997 - Write first text based on the listserve discussion of Media Queries [on Adam Connors - due 2009-07-21].
14:12:52 [PhilA2]: DKA: Anything else on this?
14:13:09 [PhilA2]: DKA: Should we look at our action log?
14:13:18 [PhilA2]: Jo: Yes
14:13:47 [jo]: -> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/products/14 Open Actions on MWABP
14:13:48 [PhilA2]: Jo: offers to send Adam some spelling mistakes
14:14:18 [PhilA2]: ACTION-744
14:14:18 [PhilA2]: Create a placeholder capturing discussion under ISSUE-245 on the need for adaptation (not transformation) to realise BP-2
14:14:37 [DKA]: PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Close ACTION-744
14:14:50 [PhilA2]: That was on Bryan back in April
14:15:08 [PhilA2]: DKA: The issue has been closed
14:15:12 [PhilA2]: Jo: Do we have any text?
14:15:40 [PhilA2]: Adam: I think this discussion pre-dates me being heavily involved
14:15:55 [PhilA2]: Jo: It ought to say somewhere - "unless you can do adaptation ..."
14:16:03 [jo]: Close ACTION-744
14:16:03 [trackbot]: ACTION-744 Create a placeholder capturing discussion under ISSUE-245 on the need for adaptation (not transformation) to realise BP-2 closed
14:16:05 [PhilA2]: Adam: Oh yes we have that
14:16:06 [DKA]: PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Close ACTION-744 since we have wording in the doc anyway.
14:16:07 [DKA]: +1
14:16:12 [EdC]: +1
14:16:17 [jo]: ACTION-786?
14:16:17 [trackbot]: ACTION-786 -- Jo Rabin to draft wording for an appendix that identifies the aggregators and operator roles that are different in the mobile ecosystem. -- due 2008-06-24 -- PENDINGREVIEW
14:16:17 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/786
14:16:20 [PhilA2]: RESOLUTION: Close ACTION-744 since we have wording in the doc anyway.
14:16:32 [PhilA2]: ACTION-786
14:16:32 [PhilA2]: Draft wording for an appendix that identifies the aggregators and operator roles that are different in the mobile ecosystem.
14:16:51 [PhilA2]: DKA: This is about aggregators operating in the mobile space
14:17:01 [PhilA2]: .. it's from June last year
14:17:25 [PhilA2]: DKA: is developing Stockholm Syndrome and will soon learn to love Big Brother Jo
14:17:40 [PhilA2]: DKA: I think it's closed
14:18:20 [PhilA2]: Jo: I think we should decide whether we need it or not
14:18:39 [PhilA2]: Jo: It's not obvious to everyone that the whole value chain for mobile is different
14:18:41 [DKA]: PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Close ACTION-786 because this is out of scope for MWABP.
14:18:51 [EdC]: +1
14:18:52 [PhilA2]: PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Close ACTION-786 because this is out of scope for MWABP.
14:19:15 [PhilA2]: DKA: You can go buy (my) book if you want to knoiw about mobile aggregators
14:19:28 [adam]: +1
14:19:29 [PhilA2]: s/(my)//
14:19:32 [DKA]: +1
14:19:42 [PhilA2]: RESOLUTION: Close ACTION-786 because this is out of scope for MWABP.
14:19:52 [DKA]: close ACTION-786
14:19:52 [trackbot]: ACTION-786 Draft wording for an appendix that identifies the aggregators and operator roles that are different in the mobile ecosystem. closed
14:19:55 [jo]: close ACTION-786
14:19:55 [trackbot]: ACTION-786 Draft wording for an appendix that identifies the aggregators and operator roles that are different in the mobile ecosystem. closed
14:20:11 [PhilA2]: ACTION-790
14:20:11 [PhilA2]: Produce some text around accessibility of Javascript for Web Application Best Practices
14:20:20 [PhilA2]: DKA: This was on Alan Chuter
14:20:37 [PhilA2]: ... where does this stand in the current document
14:20:49 [PhilA2]: Adam: I must have missed any text he sent
14:20:52 [DKA]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Sep/0081.html
14:21:36 [PhilA2]: Adam: I hear the point, especially about hiding and showing differnet textures of content
14:22:01 [PhilA2]: ... but it starts to unravel - i.e. that BP may not be valid for screen readers but it may break other BPs
14:22:08 [PhilA2]: ... it makes life hard
14:22:37 [PhilA2]: ... I can add comments along the lines of "if you're concerned about accessibilty then beware of the consequences
14:23:46 [PhilA2]: action: Adam to extract some useful info from the discussion around ACTION-790 and add it to the doc
14:23:46 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-998 - Extract some useful info from the discussion around ACTION-790 and add it to the doc [on Adam Connors - due 2009-07-21].
14:23:59 [brucel]: Adam, happy to work with you r/e ARIA stuff
14:24:01 [jo]: close ACTION-790
14:24:01 [trackbot]: ACTION-790 Produce some text around accessibility of Javascript for Web Application Best Practices closed
14:24:15 [PhilA2]: Adam: For the record - I can add to the doc without any pain and nod to WCAG and ARAI
14:24:31 [PhilA2]: ... there's a potential new document for how to marry up these BPs with accessibility
14:24:48 [PhilA2]: DKA: Yes - nad it's out of (our) scope
14:24:57 [PhilA2]: s/ nad /and/g
14:25:02 [brucel]: q+
14:25:06 [DKA]: ack bruce
14:25:07 [PhilA2]: ack bru
14:25:23 [PhilA2]: Bruce: As for the ARIA - is it such a big deal? I've been looking at it a lot
14:25:46 [jo]: ACTION-794?
14:25:46 [trackbot]: ACTION-794 -- Adam Connors to lead off discussion on ISSUE-265 following completion of next draft BP2 -- due 2008-07-17 -- OPEN
14:25:46 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/794
14:25:54 [PhilA2]: ... can't we just say "we draw your attention to ARIA which is a spec concerning screen readers" - not sure that we have to change much in the doc
14:26:18 [PhilA2]: Adam: I think at that level, you're right.
14:26:34 [PhilA2]: ... where it gets more complex if you hide content in JS that gets read out by the reader
14:26:48 [PhilA2]: ... but that's a big task to research that
14:27:11 [PhilA2]: Bruce: I can work with you on researching that in a couple of weeks
14:27:27 [PhilA2]: DKA: OK that'l comne under the action that Adam already has.
14:27:42 [PhilA2]: Adam: It would be good to have something to say about screen readers and JS
14:27:49 [jo]: q+ to note that we'd like to go to LC *before* a couple of weeks have passed
14:27:55 [PhilA2]: Adam: I'll contact our GMail people about that too
14:27:57 [DKA]: ack jo
14:27:57 [Zakim]: jo, you wanted to note that we'd like to go to LC *before* a couple of weeks have passed
14:28:23 [PhilA2]: Adam: Can we add stuff post -LC?
14:28:42 [PhilA2]: PhilA: Not really!
14:29:13 [jo]: [we should not go to last call if we know we are going to make changes]
14:29:54 [jo]: ACTION-794?
14:29:54 [trackbot]: ACTION-794 -- Adam Connors to lead off discussion on ISSUE-265 following completion of next draft BP2 -- due 2008-07-17 -- OPEN
14:29:54 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/794
14:29:54 [PhilA2]: DKA: OK, so let's assume that Bruce's extra material will be editorial in nature
14:29:56 [jo]: PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Close ACTION-794 as ISSUE-265 is closed
14:30:05 [PhilA2]: PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Close ACTION-794 as ISSUE-265 is closed
14:30:58 [jo]: close ACTION-794
14:30:58 [trackbot]: ACTION-794 Lead off discussion on ISSUE-265 following completion of next draft BP2 closed
14:31:11 [PhilA2]: RESOLUTION: Close ACTION-794 as ISSUE-265 is closed
14:31:18 [jo]: ACTION-845?
14:31:18 [trackbot]: ACTION-845 -- Kai Scheppe to finalize information on caching concept, now live, and contribute it to the list. -- due 2008-09-17 -- PENDINGREVIEW
14:31:18 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/845
14:31:20 [DKA]: action-845?
14:31:20 [trackbot]: ACTION-845 -- Kai Scheppe to finalize information on caching concept, now live, and contribute it to the list. -- due 2008-09-17 -- PENDINGREVIEW
14:31:21 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/845
14:31:49 [PhilA2]: DKA: WE have some potential text that Kai suggested
14:31:56 [DKA]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Sep/0052.html
14:32:01 [PhilA2]: s/WE /We /g
14:32:22 [PhilA2]: DKA: Adam, anything from that gone into the doc?
14:33:04 [PhilA2]: Adam: I think some of the details are low level and too tech
14:33:20 [PhilA2]: ... I think we have some good recommendations about caching. Not sure if current form is in scope
14:33:31 [PhilA2]: (noises off)
14:33:50 [PhilA2]: rrsagent, make logs public
14:34:03 [PhilA2]: DKA: So what shall we do?
14:34:12 [PhilA2]: Jo: I think we need to discuss it with Kai
14:34:25 [PhilA2]: Adam: we cover some of it in fingerprinting
14:34:32 [PhilA2]: ... it would be god to hear from Kai
14:35:33 [PhilA2]: action: DKA to feedback on action-845
14:35:33 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-999 - Feedback on action-845 [on Daniel Appelquist - due 2009-07-21].
14:36:16 [jo]: ACTION-852?
14:36:16 [trackbot]: ACTION-852 -- Bryan Sullivan to write a note to WSCWG asking for comment on using secure hashes for securing URL parameters. -- due 2008-10-03 -- OPEN
14:36:16 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/852
14:36:35 [PhilA2]: Adam: I think we can close this
14:36:35 [jo]: close ACTION-852
14:36:35 [trackbot]: ACTION-852 Write a note to WSCWG asking for comment on using secure hashes for securing URL parameters. closed
14:36:41 [PhilA2]: ... he wrote and got a reply
14:36:48 [jo]: ACTION-854?
14:36:48 [trackbot]: ACTION-854 -- Bryan Sullivan to raise his email http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Sep/0087.html as an issue -- due 2008-10-03 -- OPEN
14:36:48 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/854
14:38:47 [PhilA2]: Jo: I think this is buried in the sands of time. I'd suggest we close it and move on
14:38:49 [jo]: close ACTION-854
14:38:49 [trackbot]: ACTION-854 Raise his email http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Sep/0087.html as an issue closed
14:38:50 [DKA]: PROPOSED RESLUTION: Action-854 is buried in the sands of time.
14:38:54 [EdC]: +1
14:38:56 [DKA]: +1
14:39:01 [PhilA2]: RESLUTION: Action-854 is buried in the sands of time.
14:39:06 [PhilA2]: RESOLUTION: Action-854 is buried in the sands of time.
14:39:19 [jo]: ACTION-855?
14:39:19 [trackbot]: ACTION-855 -- Adam Connors to add an appendix on device info based on Bryan's contribution with a placeholder for additional device capabilities that are implied by the BP2 BPs. -- due 2008-10-03 -- OPEN
14:39:19 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/855
14:39:53 [PhilA2]: Adam: eerrrmmm
14:40:11 [PhilA2]: .. don't know what the content would be like for this. If someone wants to take this action off me?
14:40:17 [DKA]: PROPOSED RESOLUTION: close action-855 because Adam did it.
14:40:22 [jo]: close ACTION-855
14:40:22 [trackbot]: ACTION-855 Add an appendix on device info based on Bryan's contribution with a placeholder for additional device capabilities that are implied by the BP2 BPs. closed
14:40:23 [DKA]: PROPOSED RESOLUTION: close action-855 because Adam did it (hurrah).
14:40:27 [PhilA2]: ... No, hang on, I did it - BP device-dependent properties
14:40:30 [PhilA2]: .. it's in here
14:40:33 [jo]: ACTION-873
14:40:37 [PhilA2]: RESOLUTION: close action-855 because Adam did it (hurrah).
14:40:40 [jo]: ACTION-873?
14:40:40 [trackbot]: ACTION-873 -- Daniel Appelquist to provide some words on conservative use of resources -- due 2008-10-28 -- OPEN
14:40:40 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/873
14:40:46 [PhilA2]: rrsagent, draft minutes
14:40:46 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/14-bpwg-minutes.html PhilA2
14:41:26 [jo]: ACTION-876?
14:41:26 [trackbot]: ACTION-876 -- Jeffrey Sonstein to send to Jeff list of test cases that Jeff can inflict on a grad student. -- due 2008-10-25 -- PENDINGREVIEW
14:41:26 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/876
14:41:27 [PhilA2]: DKA: Keep that open on me, I may have time this week
14:41:38 [jo]: ACTION-894?
14:41:38 [trackbot]: ACTION-894 -- Adam Connors to review Alan's http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Sep/0081.html -- due 2009-01-15 -- OPEN
14:41:38 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/894
14:41:38 [PhilA2]: DKA: Let's keep that open as Jeff isn't here
14:41:55 [PhilA2]: Adam: This is the one we just talked about
14:42:03 [DKA]: close action-894
14:42:03 [trackbot]: ACTION-894 Review Alan's http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Sep/0081.html closed
14:42:17 [jo]: ACTION-898?
14:42:17 [trackbot]: ACTION-898 -- Bruce Lawson to take lead on pointing out anything in the WebApps doc that we should be aware of and/or comment on -- due 2009-01-20 -- OPEN
14:42:18 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/898
14:42:26 [brucel]: q+
14:42:50 [jo]: close ACTION-898
14:42:50 [trackbot]: ACTION-898 Take lead on pointing out anything in the WebApps doc that we should be aware of and/or comment on closed
14:42:51 [DKA]: ack brucel
14:42:58 [PhilA2]: Bruce: I think this is a reference to the widget packing spec that I was asked to look at and comment back on. I concluded that there was nothing for us to be concerned about
14:43:10 [DKA]: PROPOSED RESOLUTION: We close action-898 and not worry our pretty heads about it.
14:43:12 [jo]: ACTION-899
14:43:21 [jo]: ACTION-899?
14:43:21 [trackbot]: ACTION-899 -- François Daoust to contact WSC team (Thomas) to obtain a view on the secure hash mechanism discussed under 3.2.1 in BP2 -- due 2009-01-27 -- PENDINGREVIEW
14:43:21 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/899
14:43:31 [PhilA2]: RESOLUTION: We close action-898 and not worry our pretty heads about it.
14:43:40 [DKA]: close action-898
14:43:40 [trackbot]: ACTION-898 Take lead on pointing out anything in the WebApps doc that we should be aware of and/or comment on closed
14:43:59 [PhilA2]: Adam: Action-899 was done
14:44:04 [jo]: close ACTION-899
14:44:04 [trackbot]: ACTION-899 Contact WSC team (Thomas) to obtain a view on the secure hash mechanism discussed under 3.2.1 in BP2 closed
14:44:35 [PhilA2]: ACTION-904
14:44:36 [PhilA2]: Initiate discussion on his blog ref feedback on the MWABP
14:44:42 [PhilA2]: DKA: Anyone got any info?
14:44:47 [PhilA2]: ... best leave it open for now
14:45:11 [PhilA2]: Jo: becomes uncharacteristically quiet
14:45:15 [jo]: ACTION-905?
14:45:15 [trackbot]: ACTION-905 -- Daniel Appelquist to initiate discussion on betavine ref feedback on MWABP -- due 2009-02-03 -- OPEN
14:45:15 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/905
14:45:44 [jo]: close ACTION-905
14:45:44 [trackbot]: ACTION-905 Initiate discussion on betavine ref feedback on MWABP closed
14:45:57 [PhilA2]: DKA: I initiated but there was no feedback unfortunately
14:45:59 [jo]: ACTION-958?
14:45:59 [trackbot]: ACTION-958 -- Jeffrey Sonstein to review some of the 3.4 & 3.5 examples from the perspective of the average developer and report -- due 2009-05-18 -- OPEN
14:45:59 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/958
14:46:20 [PhilA2]: Adam: I didn't get any such feedback - I think this is quite old
14:46:27 [PhilA2]: ... I've not had any feedback
14:46:42 [PhilA2]: Jo: There's been no traffic and it seems to have lost its sell by date
14:46:53 [PhilA2]: Adam: The point was raised about assumed knowledge
14:47:15 [PhilA2]: ... the action was to look for places where we assumed too much knowledge - and I think that's still worth doing
14:47:30 [PhilA2]: Jo: How do we progress it if Jeff hasn't provided the feedback
14:47:43 [PhilA2]: DKA: So let's leave it open and try to ping Jeff about it
14:47:58 [jo]: ACTION-960?
14:47:58 [trackbot]: ACTION-960 -- Adam Connors to write a proposal in answer to EdC's comments on 3.6.1 and 3.6.2 -- due 2009-05-19 -- OPEN
14:47:58 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/960
14:48:09 [PhilA2]: Jo: That was done I think?
14:48:10 [jo]: close ACTION-960
14:48:10 [trackbot]: ACTION-960 Write a proposal in answer to EdC's comments on 3.6.1 and 3.6.2 closed
14:48:13 [PhilA2]: Adam: yes, I did that
14:48:23 [jo]: ACTION-964?
14:48:23 [trackbot]: ACTION-964 -- Tom Hume to review AtomDB for potential inclusion/reference in MWABP -- due 2009-06-09 -- OPEN
14:48:23 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/964
14:48:35 [PhilA2]: DKA: I think this is still pending
14:48:35 [jo]: ACTION-966?
14:48:35 [trackbot]: ACTION-966 -- Adam Connors to write a small BP on offline techniques citing AppCache as an example (and the outome of AtomDB as appropriate) -- due 2009-06-16 -- OPEN
14:48:35 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/966
14:48:45 [PhilA2]: Adam: i think you said this is done, Adam?
14:48:49 [PhilA2]: Adam: yes
14:48:58 [PhilA2]: DKA: Shall we close 966nad leave 964 open?
14:49:10 [jo]: close ACTION-986
14:49:10 [trackbot]: ACTION-986 Enquires as to status of CSS Media Queries Rec closed
14:49:11 [PhilA2]: s/966nad/966 and/
14:49:32 [jo]: close ACTION-966
14:49:32 [trackbot]: ACTION-966 Write a small BP on offline techniques citing AppCache as an example (and the outome of AtomDB as appropriate) closed
14:49:52 [jo]: ACTION-995?
14:49:52 [trackbot]: ACTION-995 -- Adam Connors to look through J.J.'s email and apply additional text as necessary to reflect the additional desireable goals as a note after each individual BP. -- due 2009-07-14 -- OPEN
14:49:52 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/995
14:50:11 [PhilA2]: DKA: This is still open as discussed earlier
14:50:21 [PhilA2]: DKA: Great, let's go to CR
14:50:28 [PhilA2]: Jo: Down to 7 issues and 1 pending action
14:50:42 [PhilA2]: DKA: Then let's finish up with the BP 1.5 etc.
14:50:55 [jo]: s/Down to 7 issues and 1 pending action/Down to 1 issues and 7 pending action
14:51:53 [DKA]: :)
14:52:07 [PhilA2]: PhilA: Keep nagging ,e, it will be done
14:52:18 [PhilA2]: s/,e,/me,/
14:52:28 [PhilA2]: DKA: I can't bear any more unassigned actions
14:52:46 [PhilA2]: DKA: Wants to close tha call - AOB?
14:53:00 [PhilA2]: rrsagent, generate minutes
14:53:00 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/14-bpwg-minutes.html PhilA2
14:53:08 [PhilA2]: Jo: Wants to do one more thing
14:53:28 [jo]: ACTION: Jo to pat himself on the back for getting the ACTION-1000 :-)
14:53:28 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-1000 - Pat himself on the back for getting the ACTION-1000 :-) [on Jo Rabin - due 2009-07-21].
14:53:42 [brucel]: +1
14:53:46 [PhilA2]: OMG, I think he's serious
14:53:50 [EdC]: +2.17281728
14:53:55 [DKA]: -1
14:54:05 [brucel]: Hugs posse
14:54:05 [jsmanrique]: bye
14:54:07 [EdC]: bye
14:54:08 [Zakim]: -DKA
14:54:10 [Zakim]: -jo
14:54:11 [Zakim]: -adam
14:54:11 [Zakim]: -Phil_Archer
14:54:12 [Zakim]: -SeanP
14:54:18 [jsmanrique]: jsmanrique has left #bpwg
14:54:21 [Zakim]: -brucel
14:54:22 [Zakim]: -edc
14:54:28 [Zakim]: -manrique
14:54:29 [Zakim]: MWI_BPWG()9:30AM has ended
14:54:30 [Zakim]: Attendees were +03531522aaaa, jo, Phil_Archer, +0774811aabb, DKA, +41.31.972.aacc, brucel, edc, manrique, +0207881aadd, adam, +1.630.414.aaee, SeanP
14:54:33 [PhilA2]: Meeting: BPWG Weekly telecon
14:54:44 [PhilA2]: Chair: Dan Appelquist
14:55:16 [PhilA2]: rrsagent, generate minutes
14:55:16 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/14-bpwg-minutes.html PhilA2
15:00:03 [PhilA2]: PhilA2 has left #bpwg
15:20:14 [brucel]: brucel has left #bpwg
17:00:59 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #bpwg