14:50:37 RRSAgent has joined #rdfa 14:50:37 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/19-rdfa-irc 14:51:02 zakim, this will be rdfa 14:51:02 ok, msporny; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes 14:51:23 Scribe: Manu_Sporny 14:51:27 scribenick: msporny 14:51:38 Meeting: RDF in XHTML Task Force 14:51:48 Chair: Ben_Adida 14:52:01 -> http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html previous 2009-03-05 14:52:08 rrsagent, make log public 14:52:27 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Mar/0120.html 14:52:49 regrets: Michael_Hausenblas 14:53:21 present: Ralph_Swick Mark_Birbeck Shane_McCarron Manu_Sporny 14:53:25 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:53:25 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html msporny 14:55:04 Ralph, would it be possible to update scribe.perl to detect a "previous:" tag in the IRC stream? 14:55:14 It would be pretty useful to have... 14:55:16 small matter of code :) 14:55:23 large matter of time? 14:55:28 there's a history to that script :) 14:55:32 ha 14:55:45 a rewrite has been "any time now" for a very long time 14:55:53 only editable on a full moon? Requires an intern as a sacrifice? 14:55:55 ahh 14:56:27 but yes, recognizing 'previous:' is one of the things I'd add if I decide to break the current deadlock 14:56:45 I'd be happy to add a patch if I could see the code... :) 14:56:59 it's public 14:57:22 ooh, so could I add a patch? Or would that cause too much work on the deployment side? 14:57:26 -> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/ scribe script source 14:57:29 Steven has joined #rdfa 14:57:41 present+ Steven_Pemberton 14:58:03 one of us would vet the patch 14:58:09 s/the/a/ 14:58:14 SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started 14:58:16 +Ralph 14:58:18 Hi Steven :) 14:59:20 +??P3 14:59:21 -??P3 14:59:22 +??P3 14:59:27 zakim, I am ?P3 14:59:27 sorry, msporny, I do not see a party named '?P3' 14:59:31 zakim, I am ??P3 14:59:31 +msporny; got it 14:59:37 +ShaneM 15:02:35 CURIE Javascript: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/CurieJavascript 15:02:49 Shane: I had an action for generating CURIEs 15:02:49 zakim, dial steven-617 15:02:49 ok, Steven; the call is being made 15:02:50 +Steven 15:04:29 Chair: Manu 15:04:32 Scribe: Ralph 15:04:37 Topic: Action Review 15:04:39 zakim, codes? 15:04:39 I don't understand your question, markbirbeck. 15:04:46 zakim, code? 15:04:46 the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck 15:04:55 [DONE] ACTION: Manu to clean up TC 9001, 9002, 9003. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action13] 15:05:11 Manu: 9001 through 9004 now use identical markup except for how the prefix is defined 15:05:29 [DONE] ACTION: Manu to create TC for space-separated syntax for @prefix. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action14] 15:05:33 Manu: that's test 9004 15:05:42 [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa" with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] 15:05:49 [PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once the NS URI is set up. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03] 15:05:54 +??P12 15:06:00 zakim, i am ? 15:06:00 +markbirbeck; got it 15:06:36 ACTION: Manu to look at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Dec/0037.html about resolving relative URIs [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action15] 15:06:46 benadida has joined #rdfa 15:07:08 +Ben_Adida 15:07:14 Manu: this was a request to add a note to the document that if Saxon or RFC2396 is used for relative URI resolution you won't get the correct result 15:07:34 ... I sent a note but want the TF to consider whether this is the right approach 15:08:23 ... the tests in question are already negative tests, which the original mail didn't realize 15:08:34 ... RFC3986 replaces RFC2396 15:08:55 ... it appears the URL that is generated in the corner case is different 15:08:59 ... affects test 114 15:09:32 ... attribution URL should be to the W3C Web site 15:09:44 content is href="../../../../../../../../../../" 15:10:24 ... the author of Saxon has said he intends to move to RFC3986 but that Saxon currently still follows RFC2396 15:10:41 ... my proposal is just to document that RDFa follows RFC3986 15:10:57 ... adding this note to test case 114 would resolve this issue, I believe 15:11:05 ... add the note in the SPARQL result 15:11:10 Ben: sounds good 15:11:34 s/ACTION:/[PENDING] ACTION: 15:11:41 [PENDING] ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases for Ivan. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09] 15:11:46 [PENDING] ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] 15:12:00 [PENDING] ACTION: Mark to review reasoning on setting explicit about="" on HEAD and BODY [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-rdfa-irc] 15:12:04 [PENDING] ACTION: Mark to send Ben ubiquity related wizard stuff [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] 15:12:13 [PENDING] ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13] 15:12:20 [PENDING] ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14] 15:12:28 [PENDING] ACTION: Ralph or Steven fix the .htaccess for the XHTML namespace [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action01] 15:12:35 [PENDING] ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15] 15:12:47 Chair: Ben 15:12:55 Topic: Test Cases 15:14:07 Topic: Primer Aside 15:14:17 Ben: I think the simplification of the Primer was the right choice at the time 15:14:28 ... but now I think it's falling short of what's needed 15:14:38 ... wonder about adding some more advanced material back in 15:14:49 Manu: I fear that the size of the document would put people off 15:14:58 ... so a separate Advanced Primer would be better 15:15:12 Ben: Primer can be updated with a reference to a [new] Advanced Primer 15:15:26 Ben: we're getting some interesting screen casts 15:15:31 ... e.g. the Drupal one 15:16:05 ... I'd like to see a screen cast on "here's how to add your RDFa markup and here's how to test that you did it correctly" 15:18:28 Go Ben! 15:23:49 q+ 15:24:27 ack steven 15:27:26 q+ 15:31:21 q- 15:32:24 q+ 15:35:39 http://webbackplane.com/mark-birbeck/blog/2009/01/rdfa-means-extensibility 15:46:54 Topic: Test Cases 15:47:39 http://rdfa.digitalbazaar.com/rdfa-test-harness/ 15:47:47 Manu: my highest priority is to decide on the syntax for @prefix value 15:48:20 ... see design test suite / unapproved 15:48:36 ... there are tests for 4 different syntaxes 15:48:45 ... we should pick one 15:49:07 Ben: let's try a quick poll, ok? 15:49:11 I'm afraid I have a 5th.... 15:49:11 note that in test 9003 the syntax of some prefixes seems wrong 15:49:13 :) 15:49:51 Ben: in the colon syntax sometimes there's whitespace following the colon and sometimes not 15:49:54 he he 15:49:57 Manu: intentionally so to generate discussion 15:50:26 I forgot that I thought of this the other day...but what about JSON syntax? Radical, I know, but makes for some interesting things. 15:50:30 e.g.: 15:50:30 Ben: so, let's try polling first with no 'extra' whitespace 15:50:32 prefix="xsd: http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#, dcterms:http://purl.org/dc/terms/, media: http://purl.org/media#, audio:http://purl.org/media/audio#" 15:50:39 Note the commas. 15:50:50 But also allowed would be: 15:51:08 Ben: 9002 uses colon and semicolon 15:51:18 ShaneM prefers prefix="PREFIX=URI PREFIX2=URI2" 15:51:30 prefix="'xsd': 'http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#', 'dcterms':'http://purl.org/dc/terms/', 'media': 'http://purl.org/media#', 'audio':'http://purl.org/media/audio#'" 15:51:33 Note the quotes. 15:51:43 ... 9001 uses colon and whitespace 15:52:11 from 9001: prefix="xsd: http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema# dcterms:http://purl.org/dc/terms/ media: http://purl.org/media# audio:http://purl.org/media/audio#"> 15:52:28 from 9002: prefix="xsd: http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#; dcterms:http://purl.org/dc/terms/; media: http://purl.org/media# ; audio: http://purl.org/media/audio#;" 15:52:54 from 9003: prefix="xsd=http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema# dcterms = http://purl.org/dc/terms/ media=http://purl.org/media# audio = http://purl.org/media/audio#> 15:53:18 from 9004: prefix="xsd http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema# dcterms http://purl.org/dc/terms/ media http://purl.org/media# audio http://purl.org/media/audio#" 15:54:51 I think focusing on simplicity buys us a great deal here, Mark - which is why I'd like to stay away from CSS-like and JSON-like syntax. 15:55:09 HTML5 folks would be all over the "complex syntax" that we've chosen 15:55:20 I disagree. 15:55:37 Having a breaking character between pairs is not complex! 15:55:54 Ralph: I think 9004 would generate objections w.r.t. future extensibility 15:56:16 markbirbeck: not between pairs - having the same character as a delimiter and a spacing character is the confusion point I think. 15:56:49 Mark: the alternating list ala 9005 is bad 15:56:59 ... as is a syntax that doesn't delimit pairs 15:57:34 ... we shouldn't try to be simple when authors use more complex syntaxes every day 15:58:35 ... I was warming to a CSS-like syntax but then it occurred to me that a lot of people are familiar with JSON format 15:58:59 Ben: nested quotes ala the JSON notation bothers me 15:59:08 Mark: that was the second alternative 15:59:27 ... first JSON-like alternative doesn't have nested quotes but does use comma to separate the pairs 15:59:41 rel="dc:license cc:license" 15:59:52 Ben: for teaching this to folks, we're already seeing space-separated properties in @rel 16:00:07 ... for groking a syntax, I like similarity [with @rel] 16:00:12 ... e.g. 9001 16:00:31 ... though I think the extra spaces [in 9001] would confuse things 16:00:55 xsd:h... 16:00:56 ... 9001 mixes in some extra spaces 16:01:17 Mark: so prefix:value SPACE prefix:value ... ? 16:01:20 Ben: yes 16:01:28 I like the use of "=" 16:01:34 Mark: this looks too much like URLs 16:01:38 because it reads like it is 16:02:47 Mark: I can live with 9002 16:03:13 ... in 9003 I'd want to disallow the spaces around '=' 16:03:22 Ben: yes, we're thinking of space as a separator 16:03:31 med:ia/image 16:03:33 ... so no space around '=' 16:04:42 Mark: I don't see a point in throwing errors when there's extra space, e.g., around '=' 16:04:51 ... the syntax should be forgiving 16:05:02 Ben: let's get a feeling for where we stand now 16:05:41 Mark: include comma-separated colon pairs 16:05:50 Option 5: Mark's JSON-like 16:06:01 POLL 16:06:41 Manu: a=b and a = b are both perfectly parseable without additional separate between the pairs 16:06:59 ... the additional comma or semicolon definitively separates the pairs 16:07:13 Steven: both comma and semicolon can be part of URLs 16:07:36 http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#; 16:07:41 is a valid URL 16:07:52 Ben: poll is not a commitment 16:08:06 3 16:08:14 5 16:08:15 +1 for prefix="a b x y" 16:08:15 Ralph: prefer option 3 '=' 16:08:20 More importantly... http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema?asd,abc;def is also a legal url 16:08:49 Manu: prefer any option that has a separator and a pair separator 16:09:18 5 16:09:21 ... so I'd be ok with 5 (and 2) 16:09:57 Shane: prefer option 3 16:10:10 Steven: prefer option 3 16:10:19 Ben: prefer 1, can live with 3 16:10:32 Mark: prefer 5, can live with 2 16:10:38 ... can't live with 3 16:10:59 Manu: can't live with 3; saying space is disallowed is harsh 16:11:08 Ben: could allow space around the '=' 16:11:24 Manu: but '=' can appear in URLs 16:11:35 Shane: '=' in URLs wouldn't break parsing 16:11:47 Mark: I see no need to create another syntax within values 16:11:54 x="y=z" 16:12:07 ... and '=' is so familiar for setting the attribute value that I think we're asking for trouble using it inside values 16:12:08 x="Y:Z" 16:12:18 Ben: that seems to argue for option 1 16:13:13 ... it would also be quite new to use JSON syntax inside an attribute value 16:13:53 Shane: the alternating list pattern is use in xml:schemaLocation 16:14:13 Ben: yep, I remember that pattern there -- and when the list gets long it becomes very confusing 16:14:20 ... so I count that as an existing bad pattern 16:14:35 Manu: worth floating this to mail? 16:15:08 +1 to Ben 16:16:15 -ShaneM 16:16:33 Ben: mail on the rdfa TF list ok 16:17:43 ... next meeting in 2 weeks 16:17:50 -msporny 16:17:51 -markbirbeck 16:17:52 -Steven 16:17:52 -Ben_Adida 16:17:59 ... next meeting on 2 April 16:18:00 -Ralph 16:18:02 SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended 16:18:03 Attendees were Ralph, msporny, ShaneM, Steven, markbirbeck, Ben_Adida 16:18:07 rrsagent, please draft minutes 16:18:07 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph 16:18:38 zakim, bye 16:18:38 Zakim has left #rdfa 16:18:40 rrsagent, bye 16:18:40 I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/19-rdfa-actions.rdf : 16:18:40 ACTION: Manu to look at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Dec/0037.html about resolving relative URIs [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action15] [1] 16:18:40 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/19-rdfa-irc#T15-06-36