IRC log of rdfa on 2009-03-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:50:37 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
14:50:37 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/19-rdfa-irc
14:51:02 [msporny]
zakim, this will be rdfa
14:51:02 [Zakim]
ok, msporny; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
14:51:23 [msporny]
Scribe: Manu_Sporny
14:51:27 [msporny]
scribenick: msporny
14:51:38 [msporny]
Meeting: RDF in XHTML Task Force
14:51:48 [msporny]
Chair: Ben_Adida
14:52:01 [Ralph]
-> http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html previous 2009-03-05
14:52:08 [msporny]
rrsagent, make log public
14:52:27 [msporny]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Mar/0120.html
14:52:49 [msporny]
regrets: Michael_Hausenblas
14:53:21 [msporny]
present: Ralph_Swick Mark_Birbeck Shane_McCarron Manu_Sporny
14:53:25 [msporny]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:53:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
14:55:04 [msporny]
Ralph, would it be possible to update scribe.perl to detect a "previous:" tag in the IRC stream?
14:55:14 [msporny]
It would be pretty useful to have...
14:55:16 [Ralph]
small matter of code :)
14:55:23 [msporny]
large matter of time?
14:55:28 [Ralph]
there's a history to that script :)
14:55:32 [msporny]
ha
14:55:45 [Ralph]
a rewrite has been "any time now" for a very long time
14:55:53 [msporny]
only editable on a full moon? Requires an intern as a sacrifice?
14:55:55 [msporny]
ahh
14:56:27 [Ralph]
but yes, recognizing 'previous:' is one of the things I'd add if I decide to break the current deadlock
14:56:45 [msporny]
I'd be happy to add a patch if I could see the code... :)
14:56:59 [Ralph]
it's public
14:57:22 [msporny]
ooh, so could I add a patch? Or would that cause too much work on the deployment side?
14:57:26 [Ralph]
-> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/ scribe script source
14:57:29 [Steven]
Steven has joined #rdfa
14:57:41 [msporny]
present+ Steven_Pemberton
14:58:03 [Ralph]
one of us would vet the patch
14:58:09 [Ralph]
s/the/a/
14:58:14 [Zakim]
SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
14:58:16 [Zakim]
+Ralph
14:58:18 [msporny]
Hi Steven :)
14:59:20 [Zakim]
+??P3
14:59:21 [Zakim]
-??P3
14:59:22 [Zakim]
+??P3
14:59:27 [msporny]
zakim, I am ?P3
14:59:27 [Zakim]
sorry, msporny, I do not see a party named '?P3'
14:59:31 [msporny]
zakim, I am ??P3
14:59:31 [Zakim]
+msporny; got it
14:59:37 [Zakim]
+ShaneM
15:02:35 [ShaneM]
CURIE Javascript: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/CurieJavascript
15:02:49 [msporny]
Shane: I had an action for generating CURIEs
15:02:49 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
15:02:49 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:02:50 [Zakim]
+Steven
15:04:29 [Ralph]
Chair: Manu
15:04:32 [Ralph]
Scribe: Ralph
15:04:37 [Ralph]
Topic: Action Review
15:04:39 [markbirbeck]
zakim, codes?
15:04:39 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, markbirbeck.
15:04:46 [markbirbeck]
zakim, code?
15:04:46 [Zakim]
the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
15:04:55 [Ralph]
[DONE] ACTION: Manu to clean up TC 9001, 9002, 9003. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
15:05:11 [Ralph]
Manu: 9001 through 9004 now use identical markup except for how the prefix is defined
15:05:29 [Ralph]
[DONE] ACTION: Manu to create TC for space-separated syntax for @prefix. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
15:05:33 [Ralph]
Manu: that's test 9004
15:05:42 [Ralph]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa" with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
15:05:49 [Ralph]
[PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once the NS URI is set up. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
15:05:54 [Zakim]
+??P12
15:06:00 [markbirbeck]
zakim, i am ?
15:06:00 [Zakim]
+markbirbeck; got it
15:06:36 [Ralph]
ACTION: Manu to look at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Dec/0037.html about resolving relative URIs [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
15:06:46 [benadida]
benadida has joined #rdfa
15:07:08 [Zakim]
+Ben_Adida
15:07:14 [Ralph]
Manu: this was a request to add a note to the document that if Saxon or RFC2396 is used for relative URI resolution you won't get the correct result
15:07:34 [Ralph]
... I sent a note but want the TF to consider whether this is the right approach
15:08:23 [Ralph]
... the tests in question are already negative tests, which the original mail didn't realize
15:08:34 [Ralph]
... RFC3986 replaces RFC2396
15:08:55 [Ralph]
... it appears the URL that is generated in the corner case is different
15:08:59 [Ralph]
... affects test 114
15:09:32 [Ralph]
... attribution URL should be to the W3C Web site
15:09:44 [benadida]
content is href="../../../../../../../../../../"
15:10:24 [Ralph]
... the author of Saxon has said he intends to move to RFC3986 but that Saxon currently still follows RFC2396
15:10:41 [Ralph]
... my proposal is just to document that RDFa follows RFC3986
15:10:57 [Ralph]
... adding this note to test case 114 would resolve this issue, I believe
15:11:05 [Ralph]
... add the note in the SPARQL result
15:11:10 [Ralph]
Ben: sounds good
15:11:34 [Ralph]
s/ACTION:/[PENDING] ACTION:
15:11:41 [Ralph]
[PENDING] ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases for Ivan. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
15:11:46 [Ralph]
[PENDING] ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
15:12:00 [Ralph]
[PENDING] ACTION: Mark to review reasoning on setting explicit about="" on HEAD and BODY [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-rdfa-irc]
15:12:04 [Ralph]
[PENDING] ACTION: Mark to send Ben ubiquity related wizard stuff [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
15:12:13 [Ralph]
[PENDING] ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
15:12:20 [Ralph]
[PENDING] ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
15:12:28 [Ralph]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ralph or Steven fix the .htaccess for the XHTML namespace [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]
15:12:35 [Ralph]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
15:12:47 [Ralph]
Chair: Ben
15:12:55 [Ralph]
Topic: Test Cases
15:14:07 [Ralph]
Topic: Primer Aside
15:14:17 [Ralph]
Ben: I think the simplification of the Primer was the right choice at the time
15:14:28 [Ralph]
... but now I think it's falling short of what's needed
15:14:38 [Ralph]
... wonder about adding some more advanced material back in
15:14:49 [Ralph]
Manu: I fear that the size of the document would put people off
15:14:58 [Ralph]
... so a separate Advanced Primer would be better
15:15:12 [Ralph]
Ben: Primer can be updated with a reference to a [new] Advanced Primer
15:15:26 [Ralph]
Ben: we're getting some interesting screen casts
15:15:31 [Ralph]
... e.g. the Drupal one
15:16:05 [Ralph]
... I'd like to see a screen cast on "here's how to add your RDFa markup and here's how to test that you did it correctly"
15:18:28 [Steven]
Go Ben!
15:23:49 [Steven]
q+
15:24:27 [msporny]
ack steven
15:27:26 [msporny]
q+
15:31:21 [msporny]
q-
15:32:24 [Steven]
q+
15:35:39 [markbirbeck]
http://webbackplane.com/mark-birbeck/blog/2009/01/rdfa-means-extensibility
15:46:54 [Ralph]
Topic: Test Cases
15:47:39 [msporny]
http://rdfa.digitalbazaar.com/rdfa-test-harness/
15:47:47 [Ralph]
Manu: my highest priority is to decide on the syntax for @prefix value
15:48:20 [Ralph]
... see design test suite / unapproved
15:48:36 [Ralph]
... there are tests for 4 different syntaxes
15:48:45 [Ralph]
... we should pick one
15:49:07 [Ralph]
Ben: let's try a quick poll, ok?
15:49:11 [markbirbeck]
I'm afraid I have a 5th....
15:49:11 [ShaneM]
note that in test 9003 the syntax of some prefixes seems wrong
15:49:13 [markbirbeck]
:)
15:49:51 [Ralph]
Ben: in the colon syntax sometimes there's whitespace following the colon and sometimes not
15:49:54 [markbirbeck]
he he
15:49:57 [Ralph]
Manu: intentionally so to generate discussion
15:50:26 [markbirbeck]
I forgot that I thought of this the other day...but what about JSON syntax? Radical, I know, but makes for some interesting things.
15:50:30 [markbirbeck]
e.g.:
15:50:30 [Ralph]
Ben: so, let's try polling first with no 'extra' whitespace
15:50:32 [markbirbeck]
prefix="xsd: http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#, dcterms:http://purl.org/dc/terms/, media: http://purl.org/media#, audio:http://purl.org/media/audio#"
15:50:39 [markbirbeck]
Note the commas.
15:50:50 [markbirbeck]
But also allowed would be:
15:51:08 [Ralph]
Ben: 9002 uses colon and semicolon
15:51:18 [ShaneM]
ShaneM prefers prefix="PREFIX=URI PREFIX2=URI2"
15:51:30 [markbirbeck]
prefix="'xsd': 'http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#', 'dcterms':'http://purl.org/dc/terms/', 'media': 'http://purl.org/media#', 'audio':'http://purl.org/media/audio#'"
15:51:33 [markbirbeck]
Note the quotes.
15:51:43 [Ralph]
... 9001 uses colon and whitespace
15:52:11 [Ralph]
from 9001: prefix="xsd: http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema# dcterms:http://purl.org/dc/terms/ media: http://purl.org/media# audio:http://purl.org/media/audio#">
15:52:28 [Ralph]
from 9002: prefix="xsd: http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#; dcterms:http://purl.org/dc/terms/; media: http://purl.org/media# ; audio: http://purl.org/media/audio#;"
15:52:54 [Ralph]
from 9003: prefix="xsd=http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema# dcterms = http://purl.org/dc/terms/ media=http://purl.org/media# audio = http://purl.org/media/audio#>
15:53:18 [Ralph]
from 9004: prefix="xsd http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema# dcterms http://purl.org/dc/terms/ media http://purl.org/media# audio http://purl.org/media/audio#"
15:54:51 [msporny]
I think focusing on simplicity buys us a great deal here, Mark - which is why I'd like to stay away from CSS-like and JSON-like syntax.
15:55:09 [msporny]
HTML5 folks would be all over the "complex syntax" that we've chosen
15:55:20 [markbirbeck]
I disagree.
15:55:37 [markbirbeck]
Having a breaking character between pairs is not complex!
15:55:54 [Ralph]
Ralph: I think 9004 would generate objections w.r.t. future extensibility
15:56:16 [ShaneM]
markbirbeck: not between pairs - having the same character as a delimiter and a spacing character is the confusion point I think.
15:56:49 [Ralph]
Mark: the alternating list ala 9005 is bad
15:56:59 [Ralph]
... as is a syntax that doesn't delimit pairs
15:57:34 [Ralph]
... we shouldn't try to be simple when authors use more complex syntaxes every day
15:58:35 [Ralph]
... I was warming to a CSS-like syntax but then it occurred to me that a lot of people are familiar with JSON format
15:58:59 [Ralph]
Ben: nested quotes ala the JSON notation bothers me
15:59:08 [Ralph]
Mark: that was the second alternative
15:59:27 [Ralph]
... first JSON-like alternative doesn't have nested quotes but does use comma to separate the pairs
15:59:41 [benadida]
rel="dc:license cc:license"
15:59:52 [Ralph]
Ben: for teaching this to folks, we're already seeing space-separated properties in @rel
16:00:07 [Ralph]
... for groking a syntax, I like similarity [with @rel]
16:00:12 [Ralph]
... e.g. 9001
16:00:31 [Ralph]
... though I think the extra spaces [in 9001] would confuse things
16:00:55 [markbirbeck]
xsd:h...
16:00:56 [Ralph]
... 9001 mixes in some extra spaces
16:01:17 [Ralph]
Mark: so prefix:value SPACE prefix:value ... ?
16:01:20 [Ralph]
Ben: yes
16:01:28 [Steven]
I like the use of "="
16:01:34 [Ralph]
Mark: this looks too much like URLs
16:01:38 [Steven]
because it reads like it is
16:02:47 [Ralph]
Mark: I can live with 9002
16:03:13 [Ralph]
... in 9003 I'd want to disallow the spaces around '='
16:03:22 [Ralph]
Ben: yes, we're thinking of space as a separator
16:03:31 [benadida]
med:ia/image
16:03:33 [Ralph]
... so no space around '='
16:04:42 [Ralph]
Mark: I don't see a point in throwing errors when there's extra space, e.g., around '='
16:04:51 [Ralph]
... the syntax should be forgiving
16:05:02 [Ralph]
Ben: let's get a feeling for where we stand now
16:05:41 [Ralph]
Mark: include comma-separated colon pairs
16:05:50 [benadida]
Option 5: Mark's JSON-like
16:06:01 [benadida]
POLL
16:06:41 [Ralph]
Manu: a=b and a = b are both perfectly parseable without additional separate between the pairs
16:06:59 [Ralph]
... the additional comma or semicolon definitively separates the pairs
16:07:13 [Ralph]
Steven: both comma and semicolon can be part of URLs
16:07:36 [Steven]
http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#;
16:07:41 [Steven]
is a valid URL
16:07:52 [Ralph]
Ben: poll is not a commitment
16:08:06 [Steven]
3
16:08:14 [markbirbeck]
5
16:08:15 [msporny]
+1 for prefix="a <SEPARATOR> b <PAIR_SEPARATOR> x <SEPARATOR> y"
16:08:15 [Ralph]
Ralph: prefer option 3 '='
16:08:20 [ShaneM]
More importantly... http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema?asd,abc;def is also a legal url
16:08:49 [Ralph]
Manu: prefer any option that has a separator and a pair separator
16:09:18 [msporny]
5
16:09:21 [Ralph]
... so I'd be ok with 5 (and 2)
16:09:57 [Ralph]
Shane: prefer option 3
16:10:10 [Ralph]
Steven: prefer option 3
16:10:19 [Ralph]
Ben: prefer 1, can live with 3
16:10:32 [Ralph]
Mark: prefer 5, can live with 2
16:10:38 [Ralph]
... can't live with 3
16:10:59 [Ralph]
Manu: can't live with 3; saying space is disallowed is harsh
16:11:08 [Ralph]
Ben: could allow space around the '='
16:11:24 [Ralph]
Manu: but '=' can appear in URLs
16:11:35 [Ralph]
Shane: '=' in URLs wouldn't break parsing
16:11:47 [Ralph]
Mark: I see no need to create another syntax within values
16:11:54 [markbirbeck]
x="y=z"
16:12:07 [Ralph]
... and '=' is so familiar for setting the attribute value that I think we're asking for trouble using it inside values
16:12:08 [ShaneM]
x="Y:Z"
16:12:18 [Ralph]
Ben: that seems to argue for option 1
16:13:13 [Ralph]
... it would also be quite new to use JSON syntax inside an attribute value
16:13:53 [Ralph]
Shane: the alternating list pattern is use in xml:schemaLocation
16:14:13 [Ralph]
Ben: yep, I remember that pattern there -- and when the list gets long it becomes very confusing
16:14:20 [Ralph]
... so I count that as an existing bad pattern
16:14:35 [Ralph]
Manu: worth floating this to mail?
16:15:08 [markbirbeck]
+1 to Ben
16:16:15 [Zakim]
-ShaneM
16:16:33 [Ralph]
Ben: mail on the rdfa TF list ok
16:17:43 [Ralph]
... next meeting in 2 weeks
16:17:50 [Zakim]
-msporny
16:17:51 [Zakim]
-markbirbeck
16:17:52 [Zakim]
-Steven
16:17:52 [Zakim]
-Ben_Adida
16:17:59 [Ralph]
... next meeting on 2 April
16:18:00 [Zakim]
-Ralph
16:18:02 [Zakim]
SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
16:18:03 [Zakim]
Attendees were Ralph, msporny, ShaneM, Steven, markbirbeck, Ben_Adida
16:18:07 [Ralph]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:18:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph
16:18:38 [Ralph]
zakim, bye
16:18:38 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #rdfa
16:18:40 [Ralph]
rrsagent, bye
16:18:40 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/19-rdfa-actions.rdf :
16:18:40 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Manu to look at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Dec/0037.html about resolving relative URIs [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action15] [1]
16:18:40 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/19-rdfa-irc#T15-06-36