IRC log of rdfa on 2009-03-19
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 14:50:37 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
- 14:50:37 [RRSAgent]
- logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/19-rdfa-irc
- 14:51:02 [msporny]
- zakim, this will be rdfa
- 14:51:02 [Zakim]
- ok, msporny; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
- 14:51:23 [msporny]
- Scribe: Manu_Sporny
- 14:51:27 [msporny]
- scribenick: msporny
- 14:51:38 [msporny]
- Meeting: RDF in XHTML Task Force
- 14:51:48 [msporny]
- Chair: Ben_Adida
- 14:52:01 [Ralph]
- -> http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html previous 2009-03-05
- 14:52:08 [msporny]
- rrsagent, make log public
- 14:52:27 [msporny]
- agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Mar/0120.html
- 14:52:49 [msporny]
- regrets: Michael_Hausenblas
- 14:53:21 [msporny]
- present: Ralph_Swick Mark_Birbeck Shane_McCarron Manu_Sporny
- 14:53:25 [msporny]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 14:53:25 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
- 14:55:04 [msporny]
- Ralph, would it be possible to update scribe.perl to detect a "previous:" tag in the IRC stream?
- 14:55:14 [msporny]
- It would be pretty useful to have...
- 14:55:16 [Ralph]
- small matter of code :)
- 14:55:23 [msporny]
- large matter of time?
- 14:55:28 [Ralph]
- there's a history to that script :)
- 14:55:32 [msporny]
- ha
- 14:55:45 [Ralph]
- a rewrite has been "any time now" for a very long time
- 14:55:53 [msporny]
- only editable on a full moon? Requires an intern as a sacrifice?
- 14:55:55 [msporny]
- ahh
- 14:56:27 [Ralph]
- but yes, recognizing 'previous:' is one of the things I'd add if I decide to break the current deadlock
- 14:56:45 [msporny]
- I'd be happy to add a patch if I could see the code... :)
- 14:56:59 [Ralph]
- it's public
- 14:57:22 [msporny]
- ooh, so could I add a patch? Or would that cause too much work on the deployment side?
- 14:57:26 [Ralph]
- -> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/ scribe script source
- 14:57:29 [Steven]
- Steven has joined #rdfa
- 14:57:41 [msporny]
- present+ Steven_Pemberton
- 14:58:03 [Ralph]
- one of us would vet the patch
- 14:58:09 [Ralph]
- s/the/a/
- 14:58:14 [Zakim]
- SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
- 14:58:16 [Zakim]
- +Ralph
- 14:58:18 [msporny]
- Hi Steven :)
- 14:59:20 [Zakim]
- +??P3
- 14:59:21 [Zakim]
- -??P3
- 14:59:22 [Zakim]
- +??P3
- 14:59:27 [msporny]
- zakim, I am ?P3
- 14:59:27 [Zakim]
- sorry, msporny, I do not see a party named '?P3'
- 14:59:31 [msporny]
- zakim, I am ??P3
- 14:59:31 [Zakim]
- +msporny; got it
- 14:59:37 [Zakim]
- +ShaneM
- 15:02:35 [ShaneM]
- CURIE Javascript: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/CurieJavascript
- 15:02:49 [msporny]
- Shane: I had an action for generating CURIEs
- 15:02:49 [Steven]
- zakim, dial steven-617
- 15:02:49 [Zakim]
- ok, Steven; the call is being made
- 15:02:50 [Zakim]
- +Steven
- 15:04:29 [Ralph]
- Chair: Manu
- 15:04:32 [Ralph]
- Scribe: Ralph
- 15:04:37 [Ralph]
- Topic: Action Review
- 15:04:39 [markbirbeck]
- zakim, codes?
- 15:04:39 [Zakim]
- I don't understand your question, markbirbeck.
- 15:04:46 [markbirbeck]
- zakim, code?
- 15:04:46 [Zakim]
- the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
- 15:04:55 [Ralph]
- [DONE] ACTION: Manu to clean up TC 9001, 9002, 9003. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
- 15:05:11 [Ralph]
- Manu: 9001 through 9004 now use identical markup except for how the prefix is defined
- 15:05:29 [Ralph]
- [DONE] ACTION: Manu to create TC for space-separated syntax for @prefix. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
- 15:05:33 [Ralph]
- Manu: that's test 9004
- 15:05:42 [Ralph]
- [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa" with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
- 15:05:49 [Ralph]
- [PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once the NS URI is set up. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
- 15:05:54 [Zakim]
- +??P12
- 15:06:00 [markbirbeck]
- zakim, i am ?
- 15:06:00 [Zakim]
- +markbirbeck; got it
- 15:06:36 [Ralph]
- ACTION: Manu to look at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Dec/0037.html about resolving relative URIs [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
- 15:06:46 [benadida]
- benadida has joined #rdfa
- 15:07:08 [Zakim]
- +Ben_Adida
- 15:07:14 [Ralph]
- Manu: this was a request to add a note to the document that if Saxon or RFC2396 is used for relative URI resolution you won't get the correct result
- 15:07:34 [Ralph]
- ... I sent a note but want the TF to consider whether this is the right approach
- 15:08:23 [Ralph]
- ... the tests in question are already negative tests, which the original mail didn't realize
- 15:08:34 [Ralph]
- ... RFC3986 replaces RFC2396
- 15:08:55 [Ralph]
- ... it appears the URL that is generated in the corner case is different
- 15:08:59 [Ralph]
- ... affects test 114
- 15:09:32 [Ralph]
- ... attribution URL should be to the W3C Web site
- 15:09:44 [benadida]
- content is href="../../../../../../../../../../"
- 15:10:24 [Ralph]
- ... the author of Saxon has said he intends to move to RFC3986 but that Saxon currently still follows RFC2396
- 15:10:41 [Ralph]
- ... my proposal is just to document that RDFa follows RFC3986
- 15:10:57 [Ralph]
- ... adding this note to test case 114 would resolve this issue, I believe
- 15:11:05 [Ralph]
- ... add the note in the SPARQL result
- 15:11:10 [Ralph]
- Ben: sounds good
- 15:11:34 [Ralph]
- s/ACTION:/[PENDING] ACTION:
- 15:11:41 [Ralph]
- [PENDING] ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases for Ivan. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
- 15:11:46 [Ralph]
- [PENDING] ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
- 15:12:00 [Ralph]
- [PENDING] ACTION: Mark to review reasoning on setting explicit about="" on HEAD and BODY [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-rdfa-irc]
- 15:12:04 [Ralph]
- [PENDING] ACTION: Mark to send Ben ubiquity related wizard stuff [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
- 15:12:13 [Ralph]
- [PENDING] ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
- 15:12:20 [Ralph]
- [PENDING] ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
- 15:12:28 [Ralph]
- [PENDING] ACTION: Ralph or Steven fix the .htaccess for the XHTML namespace [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]
- 15:12:35 [Ralph]
- [PENDING] ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
- 15:12:47 [Ralph]
- Chair: Ben
- 15:12:55 [Ralph]
- Topic: Test Cases
- 15:14:07 [Ralph]
- Topic: Primer Aside
- 15:14:17 [Ralph]
- Ben: I think the simplification of the Primer was the right choice at the time
- 15:14:28 [Ralph]
- ... but now I think it's falling short of what's needed
- 15:14:38 [Ralph]
- ... wonder about adding some more advanced material back in
- 15:14:49 [Ralph]
- Manu: I fear that the size of the document would put people off
- 15:14:58 [Ralph]
- ... so a separate Advanced Primer would be better
- 15:15:12 [Ralph]
- Ben: Primer can be updated with a reference to a [new] Advanced Primer
- 15:15:26 [Ralph]
- Ben: we're getting some interesting screen casts
- 15:15:31 [Ralph]
- ... e.g. the Drupal one
- 15:16:05 [Ralph]
- ... I'd like to see a screen cast on "here's how to add your RDFa markup and here's how to test that you did it correctly"
- 15:18:28 [Steven]
- Go Ben!
- 15:23:49 [Steven]
- q+
- 15:24:27 [msporny]
- ack steven
- 15:27:26 [msporny]
- q+
- 15:31:21 [msporny]
- q-
- 15:32:24 [Steven]
- q+
- 15:35:39 [markbirbeck]
- http://webbackplane.com/mark-birbeck/blog/2009/01/rdfa-means-extensibility
- 15:46:54 [Ralph]
- Topic: Test Cases
- 15:47:39 [msporny]
- http://rdfa.digitalbazaar.com/rdfa-test-harness/
- 15:47:47 [Ralph]
- Manu: my highest priority is to decide on the syntax for @prefix value
- 15:48:20 [Ralph]
- ... see design test suite / unapproved
- 15:48:36 [Ralph]
- ... there are tests for 4 different syntaxes
- 15:48:45 [Ralph]
- ... we should pick one
- 15:49:07 [Ralph]
- Ben: let's try a quick poll, ok?
- 15:49:11 [markbirbeck]
- I'm afraid I have a 5th....
- 15:49:11 [ShaneM]
- note that in test 9003 the syntax of some prefixes seems wrong
- 15:49:13 [markbirbeck]
- :)
- 15:49:51 [Ralph]
- Ben: in the colon syntax sometimes there's whitespace following the colon and sometimes not
- 15:49:54 [markbirbeck]
- he he
- 15:49:57 [Ralph]
- Manu: intentionally so to generate discussion
- 15:50:26 [markbirbeck]
- I forgot that I thought of this the other day...but what about JSON syntax? Radical, I know, but makes for some interesting things.
- 15:50:30 [markbirbeck]
- e.g.:
- 15:50:30 [Ralph]
- Ben: so, let's try polling first with no 'extra' whitespace
- 15:50:32 [markbirbeck]
- prefix="xsd: http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#, dcterms:http://purl.org/dc/terms/, media: http://purl.org/media#, audio:http://purl.org/media/audio#"
- 15:50:39 [markbirbeck]
- Note the commas.
- 15:50:50 [markbirbeck]
- But also allowed would be:
- 15:51:08 [Ralph]
- Ben: 9002 uses colon and semicolon
- 15:51:18 [ShaneM]
- ShaneM prefers prefix="PREFIX=URI PREFIX2=URI2"
- 15:51:30 [markbirbeck]
- prefix="'xsd': 'http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#', 'dcterms':'http://purl.org/dc/terms/', 'media': 'http://purl.org/media#', 'audio':'http://purl.org/media/audio#'"
- 15:51:33 [markbirbeck]
- Note the quotes.
- 15:51:43 [Ralph]
- ... 9001 uses colon and whitespace
- 15:52:11 [Ralph]
- from 9001: prefix="xsd: http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema# dcterms:http://purl.org/dc/terms/ media: http://purl.org/media# audio:http://purl.org/media/audio#">
- 15:52:28 [Ralph]
- from 9002: prefix="xsd: http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#; dcterms:http://purl.org/dc/terms/; media: http://purl.org/media# ; audio: http://purl.org/media/audio#;"
- 15:52:54 [Ralph]
- from 9003: prefix="xsd=http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema# dcterms = http://purl.org/dc/terms/ media=http://purl.org/media# audio = http://purl.org/media/audio#>
- 15:53:18 [Ralph]
- from 9004: prefix="xsd http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema# dcterms http://purl.org/dc/terms/ media http://purl.org/media# audio http://purl.org/media/audio#"
- 15:54:51 [msporny]
- I think focusing on simplicity buys us a great deal here, Mark - which is why I'd like to stay away from CSS-like and JSON-like syntax.
- 15:55:09 [msporny]
- HTML5 folks would be all over the "complex syntax" that we've chosen
- 15:55:20 [markbirbeck]
- I disagree.
- 15:55:37 [markbirbeck]
- Having a breaking character between pairs is not complex!
- 15:55:54 [Ralph]
- Ralph: I think 9004 would generate objections w.r.t. future extensibility
- 15:56:16 [ShaneM]
- markbirbeck: not between pairs - having the same character as a delimiter and a spacing character is the confusion point I think.
- 15:56:49 [Ralph]
- Mark: the alternating list ala 9005 is bad
- 15:56:59 [Ralph]
- ... as is a syntax that doesn't delimit pairs
- 15:57:34 [Ralph]
- ... we shouldn't try to be simple when authors use more complex syntaxes every day
- 15:58:35 [Ralph]
- ... I was warming to a CSS-like syntax but then it occurred to me that a lot of people are familiar with JSON format
- 15:58:59 [Ralph]
- Ben: nested quotes ala the JSON notation bothers me
- 15:59:08 [Ralph]
- Mark: that was the second alternative
- 15:59:27 [Ralph]
- ... first JSON-like alternative doesn't have nested quotes but does use comma to separate the pairs
- 15:59:41 [benadida]
- rel="dc:license cc:license"
- 15:59:52 [Ralph]
- Ben: for teaching this to folks, we're already seeing space-separated properties in @rel
- 16:00:07 [Ralph]
- ... for groking a syntax, I like similarity [with @rel]
- 16:00:12 [Ralph]
- ... e.g. 9001
- 16:00:31 [Ralph]
- ... though I think the extra spaces [in 9001] would confuse things
- 16:00:55 [markbirbeck]
- xsd:h...
- 16:00:56 [Ralph]
- ... 9001 mixes in some extra spaces
- 16:01:17 [Ralph]
- Mark: so prefix:value SPACE prefix:value ... ?
- 16:01:20 [Ralph]
- Ben: yes
- 16:01:28 [Steven]
- I like the use of "="
- 16:01:34 [Ralph]
- Mark: this looks too much like URLs
- 16:01:38 [Steven]
- because it reads like it is
- 16:02:47 [Ralph]
- Mark: I can live with 9002
- 16:03:13 [Ralph]
- ... in 9003 I'd want to disallow the spaces around '='
- 16:03:22 [Ralph]
- Ben: yes, we're thinking of space as a separator
- 16:03:31 [benadida]
- med:ia/image
- 16:03:33 [Ralph]
- ... so no space around '='
- 16:04:42 [Ralph]
- Mark: I don't see a point in throwing errors when there's extra space, e.g., around '='
- 16:04:51 [Ralph]
- ... the syntax should be forgiving
- 16:05:02 [Ralph]
- Ben: let's get a feeling for where we stand now
- 16:05:41 [Ralph]
- Mark: include comma-separated colon pairs
- 16:05:50 [benadida]
- Option 5: Mark's JSON-like
- 16:06:01 [benadida]
- POLL
- 16:06:41 [Ralph]
- Manu: a=b and a = b are both perfectly parseable without additional separate between the pairs
- 16:06:59 [Ralph]
- ... the additional comma or semicolon definitively separates the pairs
- 16:07:13 [Ralph]
- Steven: both comma and semicolon can be part of URLs
- 16:07:36 [Steven]
- http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#;
- 16:07:41 [Steven]
- is a valid URL
- 16:07:52 [Ralph]
- Ben: poll is not a commitment
- 16:08:06 [Steven]
- 3
- 16:08:14 [markbirbeck]
- 5
- 16:08:15 [msporny]
- +1 for prefix="a <SEPARATOR> b <PAIR_SEPARATOR> x <SEPARATOR> y"
- 16:08:15 [Ralph]
- Ralph: prefer option 3 '='
- 16:08:20 [ShaneM]
- More importantly... http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema?asd,abc;def is also a legal url
- 16:08:49 [Ralph]
- Manu: prefer any option that has a separator and a pair separator
- 16:09:18 [msporny]
- 5
- 16:09:21 [Ralph]
- ... so I'd be ok with 5 (and 2)
- 16:09:57 [Ralph]
- Shane: prefer option 3
- 16:10:10 [Ralph]
- Steven: prefer option 3
- 16:10:19 [Ralph]
- Ben: prefer 1, can live with 3
- 16:10:32 [Ralph]
- Mark: prefer 5, can live with 2
- 16:10:38 [Ralph]
- ... can't live with 3
- 16:10:59 [Ralph]
- Manu: can't live with 3; saying space is disallowed is harsh
- 16:11:08 [Ralph]
- Ben: could allow space around the '='
- 16:11:24 [Ralph]
- Manu: but '=' can appear in URLs
- 16:11:35 [Ralph]
- Shane: '=' in URLs wouldn't break parsing
- 16:11:47 [Ralph]
- Mark: I see no need to create another syntax within values
- 16:11:54 [markbirbeck]
- x="y=z"
- 16:12:07 [Ralph]
- ... and '=' is so familiar for setting the attribute value that I think we're asking for trouble using it inside values
- 16:12:08 [ShaneM]
- x="Y:Z"
- 16:12:18 [Ralph]
- Ben: that seems to argue for option 1
- 16:13:13 [Ralph]
- ... it would also be quite new to use JSON syntax inside an attribute value
- 16:13:53 [Ralph]
- Shane: the alternating list pattern is use in xml:schemaLocation
- 16:14:13 [Ralph]
- Ben: yep, I remember that pattern there -- and when the list gets long it becomes very confusing
- 16:14:20 [Ralph]
- ... so I count that as an existing bad pattern
- 16:14:35 [Ralph]
- Manu: worth floating this to mail?
- 16:15:08 [markbirbeck]
- +1 to Ben
- 16:16:15 [Zakim]
- -ShaneM
- 16:16:33 [Ralph]
- Ben: mail on the rdfa TF list ok
- 16:17:43 [Ralph]
- ... next meeting in 2 weeks
- 16:17:50 [Zakim]
- -msporny
- 16:17:51 [Zakim]
- -markbirbeck
- 16:17:52 [Zakim]
- -Steven
- 16:17:52 [Zakim]
- -Ben_Adida
- 16:17:59 [Ralph]
- ... next meeting on 2 April
- 16:18:00 [Zakim]
- -Ralph
- 16:18:02 [Zakim]
- SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
- 16:18:03 [Zakim]
- Attendees were Ralph, msporny, ShaneM, Steven, markbirbeck, Ben_Adida
- 16:18:07 [Ralph]
- rrsagent, please draft minutes
- 16:18:07 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph
- 16:18:38 [Ralph]
- zakim, bye
- 16:18:38 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #rdfa
- 16:18:40 [Ralph]
- rrsagent, bye
- 16:18:40 [RRSAgent]
- I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/19-rdfa-actions.rdf :
- 16:18:40 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Manu to look at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Dec/0037.html about resolving relative URIs [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action15] [1]
- 16:18:40 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/19-rdfa-irc#T15-06-36