<AllanJ> zakim. this will be wai_u

<AllanJ> Title: UAWG telecon

<KFord> trackbot, start meeting

<trackbot> Date: 26 February 2009

<KFord> Chair: Jim Allan

i am on another call for about 10 minutes. i can pick up scribing once i join, if needed.

<KFord> zakim take up agenda 1

discussion of accessibility conflicts in user agents, Cynthia Shelly, Microsoft Senior Accessibility Strategist

<KFord> CS talking about CSS outline issue. One option is none, which turns off outlines.

<KFord> IE8 supports this as does FF.

<KFord> It appears to be an issue in the CSS spec.

<KFord> This has the potential to cause accessibility conflicts.

<KFord> CS: What does your group think.

<KFord> CS: Another reason this concerns me is that this interferes with an OS accessibility features, namely focus rects.

<KFord> JA: I went to wcag 2 and they have a success criteria around this at level AA. They don't necessarily say don't turn this off.

<KFord> JA: I think there are a lot of options, like setting default font and such. Maybe even creating your own CSS.

<AllanJ> KF: user can write css, but beyond abilities of most users

<AllanJ> ...in today's user agents. Should the UA do more. if the group can identify that something will degrade a users experience

<AllanJ> ...then the UA can warn, like a sign by construction on a sidewalk

<AllanJ> KF: other user configurable options, like alternative content stack

<AllanJ> ...this is similar. user should indicate a preference to always display focus

<jeanne> http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2009/UAAG20-20090121-ED/#gl-interaction-highlight

<AllanJ> ...UA must do what is has to do to make user happy

<AllanJ> ...User in control

<Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to recommend an SC or technique to add a preference to always display focus. and to

<Zakim> AllanJ, you wanted to discuss insulating users from authors

<jeanne> http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2009/UAAG20-20090121-ED/#gl-interaction-highlight

<AllanJ> ...we don't know them all. hard to prevent all.

<jeanne> 3.5.1 Highlighted items covers this.

<jeanne> CS: recommends defining content focus carefully. PF and HTML5 are working on this as part of ARIA.

<AllanJ> scripting focus vs UA focus

<AllanJ> large black holes in javascript and items taken out of the tab order

jeanne i can start scribing.

<jeanne> CS:default settings should be accessible.

<KFord> +1 on the default settings.

CS: outline supports everything border supports except none

<KFord> Thanks Cynthia. Appreciate the visit.

ja: have we met all of CS's issues?

CS: yes

ja: focus in scripts. 3.5.1 add issue of focus in scripts.

<AllanJ> ACTION: SH to write proposal for 'default settings of UA should be accessible' need examples? [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-ua-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - SH

<trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. sharper, shayes)

<AllanJ> ACTION: SHarper to write proposal for 'default settings of UA should be accessible' need examples? [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-ua-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-149 - to write proposal for 'default settings of UA should be accessible' need examples? [on Simon Harper - due 2009-03-05].

ja: do we need to add something relative to focus and scripts?

mh: yes, a real problem

kford: yes

ja: mark to do an action on this

<scribe> ACTION: mhakkinen to write a proposal for scripting and focus, for 3.5.1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-ua-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - mhakkinen

<scribe> ACTION: mh to write a proposal for scripting and focus, for 3.5.1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-ua-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-150 - Write a proposal for scripting and focus, for 3.5.1 [on Markku Hakkinen - due 2009-03-05].

sh: we have a term called override. does this have some relation to default settings?

ja: default settings should be as accessible as possible, accessible out of the box

Survey Results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/

<cyns> I was on Skype, sorry about that.

ja: first item is to review status section of the document. try to wrap up in time for CSUN

js: make sure that we've covered big ones in status. if something was felt to be not on the right track, call it out and ask for feedback. put the status out and make sure these are the ones we have to address.

hs: better understanding now, re my original comments

kf: group seeks feedback from ua manufacturers as to whether these guidelines can be used to develop ua's. Is all needed information there?

hs: good question. is more supporting documentation needed to support the guidelines?

kf: another question to ask. Today using many different web browsers. do these guidelines capture the need of the wide range of platforms in which ua's exist today

hs: we should include.

<AllanJ> MH: any devices (wii, kindle, etc) all have UAs in them. this point is not made clearly enough

kf: two more questions, how do we go forward? do i need to write up?

js: will add them to the status, based on what is in minutes. can also email them to list.

ja: publishing the week of the 12th.

<AllanJ> changes also harmonized with ATAG 20 Guideline 1 also expanded the definition to include web applications as user agents.

js: arrive at csun with a handout containing a link to the document to be reviewed.

ja: any other comments, send to jeanne.
... glossary: document object model

http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/results

<AllanJ> proposed: The internal representation of data in the source content by a non-Web-based authoring tool or user agent. The document object may form part of a platform accessibility architecture that enables communication with assistive technologies.

ja: take out sentence on authoring tool based on comments.

<AllanJ> proposed: The internal representation of data in the source content by a non-Web-based user agent. The document object may form part of a platform accessibility architecture that enables communication with assistive technologies.

ja: what about david's proposal?
... both david and simon have valid points. no techniques for this. should put in "understanding uaag" doc

js: appropriate

<AllanJ> does it hurt anything if we leave the reference to AT in the definition

kford: making definition too complicated. don't need to tie it into AT. it is what it is.

ja: we've explained enough in the programmatic access.

kf: ua developers will know what DOM is

<AllanJ> proposed: The internal representation of data in the source content by a non-Web-based user agent.

kf: made clear in the meat of the document

<AllanJ> =1

<AllanJ> +1

mh: is there an alernative to non-web based ua?

ja: others have thoughts?

sh: are we saying that a web-based ua is not present on the user's platform

ja: carry over from atag, they have web-based and non-web-based authoring tools.
... will take an action to rewrite this.

<AllanJ> ACTION: JA to write proposal about removing non-web-based, default to be UA , if web-based it will be specifically named [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-ua-minutes.html#action05]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-151 - Write proposal about removing non-web-based, default to be UA , if web-based it will be specifically named [on Jim Allan - due 2009-03-05].

<AllanJ> SH: do you have to have a DOM

<AllanJ> MH: you will eventually create one

<AllanJ> KF: but might call it something else

<AllanJ> > proposed: The internal representation of data in the source content by a user agent.

ja: any objections?

none

<jeanne> ACTION: JS to update glossary with the new definition of Document Object. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-ua-minutes.html#action06]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-152 - Update glossary with the new definition of Document Object. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-03-05].

next document character set: all agree, done.

<jeanne> ACTION: JS to update glossary with new definition of document character set. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-ua-minutes.html#action07]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-153 - Update glossary with new definition of document character set. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-03-05].

ja: next is document source, text source. 5 accept, 1 change, 2 more disc

kf: reading this, don't understand what the last sentence is for. Why text source?

js: we use both in the document.

ja: Text the user agent renders upon user request to view the source of specific viewport content (i.e. selected content, frame, page).
... any objections to using new short def?

<AllanJ> resolved: Text the user agent renders upon user request to view the source of specific viewport content (i.e. selected content, frame, page).

<jeanne> ACTION: JS to update glossary with new definition of Document Source. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-ua-minutes.html#action08]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-154 - Update glossary with new definition of Document Source. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-03-05].

sh: w3c DOM group definition of DOM.

<sharper> http://www.w3.org/DOM/#what

ja: any objection to using DOM groups definition?

resolved: use DOM groups defintion of document object model. "The Document Object Model is a platform- and language-neutral interface that will allow programs and scripts to dynamically access and update the content, structure and style of documents. The document can be further processed and the results of that processing can be incorporated back into the presented page. This is an overview of DOM-related materials here at W3C and around the web."

ja: next is documentation. 7 accepts. one question.

<AllanJ> add 'all forms must be accessible or available in accessible alternative formats'?

ja: alternative formats is redundant. already taken care of. add in mark's text for installation, ahead of CD ROM.

<AllanJ> resolved: Any information that supports the use of a user agent. This information may be found, for example, in manuals, installation instructions, the help system, and tutorials. Documentation may be distributed (e.g., as files installed as part of the installation, some parts may be delivered on CD-ROM, others on the Web). See guideline 5.3 for information about documentation requirements.

ja: next is element or element type.

<jeanne> ACTION: JS to update glossary with definition of Documentation. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-ua-minutes.html#action09]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-155 - Update glossary with definition of Documentation. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-03-05].

xhtnl def of element: An element is a document structuring unit declared in the DTD. The element's content model is defined in the DTD, and additional semantics may be defined in the prose description of the element.

continue discussion of element next week

jeanne will extend the current survey for next week, and will remove questions that we have already resolved.

ja: will take up Henny's issue next week.

<jeanne> rssagent, make minutes

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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/featurs/features/
Succeeded: s/default settins should be accessible. /CS:default settings should be accessible./
No ScribeNick specified.  Guessing ScribeNick: mhakkinen
Inferring Scribes: mhakkinen
Default Present: AllanJ, [Microsoft], Jeanne, kford, Henny, sharper, Cynthia_Shelly(visiting), Mark_Hakkinen
Present: AllanJ [Microsoft] Jeanne kford Henny sharper Cynthia_Shelly(visiting) Mark_Hakkinen Jim_Allan Henny_Swan Kelly_Ford Simon_Harper Jeanne_Spellman Cynthia_Shelly_(visiting)
Regrets: Judy Jan Alan DavidP JanR
Found Date: 26 Feb 2009
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-ua-minutes.html
People with action items: ja js mh mhakkinen sh sharper

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