IRC log of wam on 2009-01-29

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:00:04 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #wam
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/01/29-wam-irc
15:00:04 [marcos]
bb in 2 mins
15:00:13 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make log public
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ScribeNick: ArtB
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Scribe: Art
15:00:30 [Zakim]
IA_WebApps(Widgets)10:00AM has now started
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Chair: Art
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+Jere
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-Jere
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IA_WebApps(Widgets)10:00AM has ended
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Attendees were Jere
15:00:44 [ArtB]
Meeting: Widgets Voice Conference
15:00:55 [Zakim]
IA_WebApps(Widgets)10:00AM has now started
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+ +1.919.342.aaaa
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+Art_Barstow
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zakim, aaaa is Andy
15:01:26 [Zakim]
+Andy; got it
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+Jere
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Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009JanMar/0227.html
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Date: 29 January 2009
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+arve
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Present: Art, Arve, Andy, Jere
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andy has joined #wam
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+Mark
15:02:56 [ArtB]
Present+ Mark
15:03:00 [Zakim]
+??P24
15:03:09 [ArtB]
zakim, PP24 is Marcos
15:03:09 [Zakim]
sorry, ArtB, I do not recognize a party named 'PP24'
15:03:11 [marcos]
zakim, ??P24 is me
15:03:11 [Zakim]
+marcos; got it
15:03:13 [ArtB]
Present+ Mark
15:03:31 [Bryan]
Bryan is here, on chat only
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15:03:38 [ArtB]
Present+ Bryan
15:04:07 [ArtB]
Present+ Marcos
15:04:14 [ArtB]
Topic: Review and tweak agenda
15:04:20 [ArtB]
AB: any change requests?
15:04:42 [ArtB]
AB: agenda is http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009JanMar/0227.html
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[None]
15:04:53 [ArtB]
Topic: Announcements
15:05:03 [Benoit]
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AB: Andy, brief intro please
15:05:05 [Benoit]
p
15:05:20 [ArtB]
Present+ Benoit
15:05:37 [ArtB]
Andy: with Sony Ericsson for over 2 years;
15:05:45 [ArtB]
... work with North America operators
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... I work with Web technologies
15:06:07 [MikeSmith]
MikeSmith has joined #wam
15:06:17 [ArtB]
... trying to get my bearings wrt to W3C
15:06:37 [ArtB]
AB: Marcos mentioned in IRC today there will be Mobile Widget Workshop
15:06:45 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, call Mike-Mobile
15:06:45 [Zakim]
ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
15:06:47 [Zakim]
+Mike
15:06:56 [ArtB]
... For details see http://www.research.att.com/~rjana/mobea2009.htm
15:07:11 [ArtB]
... Deadline is Feb 12 for papers
15:07:28 [ArtB]
AB: It's not really an announcement per se but a forward pointer to the AOB agenda item I want to talk about moving this call to one hour earlier on a permanent basis.
15:07:40 [ArtB]
AB: does anyone have any other short announcements they'd like to make?
15:07:48 [ArtB]
[None]
15:07:53 [ArtB]
Topic: Requirements for Window modes:
15:08:07 [ArtB]
AB: last week our discussion about window modes started to "rat hole" in that we were conflating a few different concepts
15:08:17 [ArtB]
AB: Mark agreed to create some requirements
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... Action-291: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/291
15:08:37 [ArtB]
AB: Mark, what is the status?
15:09:03 [ArtB]
MP: I've had some internal discussions but nothing yet to share with the group
15:09:19 [ArtB]
... there were some additional comments on the list and I haven't followed them yet
15:09:30 [ArtB]
... will be next week before I can address this action
15:10:07 [ArtB]
AB: ok; please let's continue this discussion
15:10:15 [ArtB]
Arve: how does this effect P&C 1.0
15:10:22 [ArtB]
MC: I'm not sure at this point
15:10:32 [ArtB]
... I think we have general consensus on the names
15:10:46 [ArtB]
... but we still need to discuss the related process model for each name
15:11:02 [ArtB]
Arve: would we need to go back to WD or a 2nd LCWD
15:11:13 [ArtB]
AB: I don't know the answer
15:11:45 [ArtB]
ACTION: barstow if we make significant changes to P&C LC, do we need to go back to WD?
15:12:03 [Zakim]
+Caroline
15:12:09 [ArtB]
Present+ Mike
15:12:18 [ArtB]
MS: there is no hard and fast rule here
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... we can resolve this now
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... we don't have to go back unnecessarily
15:12:57 [ArtB]
AB: I think it's a bit premature to make a resolution on this
15:13:05 [ArtB]
AB: any comments on that?
15:13:32 [ArtB]
MC: I agree; we should think about this in a week or two and see how much the spec changes
15:13:46 [ArtB]
AB: I think that's a reasonable way forward
15:13:50 [ArtB]
AB: any disagreements?
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[None]
15:13:59 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:13:59 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Andy, Art_Barstow, Jere, arve, Mark, marcos, Mike, Caroline
15:14:03 [ArtB]
Topic: Renaming "thumbnail" to "screenshot"?
15:14:15 [ArtB]
AB: Marcos raised this issue via <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009JanMar/0174.html>
15:14:23 [ArtB]
AB: I don't recall much support for the proposal
15:14:29 [ArtB]
... Marcos, what's the status?
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MC: I think it makes sense to change it to screenshot
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Arve: neither proposal is particuarly acurate description of the image
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MC: what is the role of the image?
15:15:59 [ArtB]
Arve: the image varies a lot
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... the image is displayed to provide information
15:16:57 [Benoit]
As a user's perspective then in gallery it would make sens to use the word screenshot
15:17:47 [ArtB]
Arve: an image can have multiple roles
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... OTOH, I don't think this is a big deal
15:19:03 [ArtB]
MC: I'd like to go with screenshot
15:19:18 [ArtB]
BS: I agree with Marcos
15:19:36 [ArtB]
JK: want to understand the purpose of the image
15:19:51 [ArtB]
... thumbnail is used within the device e.g. in a gallery
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... that's different than an image on a web site
15:21:01 [ArtB]
AB: Mark, is this topic something you will include in your input for the window mode action
15:21:09 [ArtB]
MP: no, I wasn't
15:21:21 [ArtB]
... see them as separate
15:21:54 [ArtB]
MC: I will refine the requirements re thumbnails, etc in the Reqs doc
15:22:25 [ArtB]
AB: so will you let us know when that is done?
15:22:28 [ArtB]
MC: yes
15:22:35 [ArtB]
Topic: SVG dependency
15:22:44 [ArtB]
AB: Boris raised an issue regarding the P&C spec's SVG dependency
15:22:52 [ArtB]
... See <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009JanMar/0212.html>
15:23:04 [ArtB]
AB: since then, Doug Schepers has responded
15:23:14 [ArtB]
... See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009JanMar/0233.html
15:23:27 [ArtB]
AB: Marcos, what's the status?
15:24:06 [ArtB]
MC: Boris' viewpoint is correct
15:24:13 [ArtB]
... I was looking at it differently
15:24:23 [ArtB]
... Conformance checker and author reqs are different
15:24:57 [ArtB]
MC: Doug mentioned a bunch of different capabilities of SVG
15:25:12 [ArtB]
... he recommends we recommend a subset of SVG
15:25:26 [ArtB]
Arve: has anyone defined such a profile already?
15:25:36 [ArtB]
MC: no and I think it would be painful to do so
15:25:53 [ArtB]
... we'd have to tell authors not to use certain elements for example
15:26:05 [ArtB]
... and get into spec'ing behavior diffs
15:27:14 [ArtB]
AB: I think we need more information/data from implementors of the Widget UA
15:27:29 [ArtB]
JK: could we use MIME type to help?
15:27:52 [ArtB]
Arve: all profiles today include some features we may not want to support
15:28:34 [ArtB]
AB: my recommendation is we continue to discuss this on the public mail list
15:29:00 [ArtB]
MC: I think we shold drop SVG icon format for v1
15:29:23 [ArtB]
Arve: I would expect some operators to require SVG icon format
15:30:50 [ArtB]
AB: there's an action for everyone to talk to the impl teams and bring back some data to help inform this decision
15:31:28 [ArtB]
Arve: some functionality like scripting we don't want to support
15:31:38 [ArtB]
... there are other things we also don't want to have to support
15:32:21 [ArtB]
Arve: the SVG WG can help us understand if there is some way to say particualar features are not supported
15:32:44 [Benoit_]
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15:32:53 [ArtB]
ACTION: Barstow followup with Doug and Mike to coordinate this issue with the SVG WG
15:33:29 [ArtB]
Arve: I think Erik is a co-Chair
15:33:40 [ArtB]
MS: we can include Cameron too as he is the other co-Chair
15:33:52 [ArtB]
Topic: File extension and MIME mapping
15:34:02 [ArtB]
AB: Boris raised an issue re file extensions and MIME mapping
15:34:12 [ArtB]
... see <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009JanMar/0173.html>
15:34:20 [ArtB]
AB: Marcos, what's the essence of the issue?
15:34:39 [ArtB]
MC: we understand this is an issue
15:35:10 [ArtB]
... we can work with Hixie and at least someone else on an Internet Draft
15:35:21 [ArtB]
... He thinks we need a robust table of mappings
15:35:28 [ArtB]
... I think we already have such a table
15:35:40 [ArtB]
... We also need to consider the security implications
15:35:45 [MikeSmith]
http://webblaze.cs.berkeley.edu/2009/mime-sniff/mime-sniff.txt
15:36:03 [ArtB]
JK: so you aren't interested in a manifest within the package to address this
15:36:15 [ArtB]
MC: no widget engine has needed it so far
15:36:26 [ArtB]
... thus I'm not convinced we need it
15:36:36 [ArtB]
... I can put it in; just follow Apache
15:36:39 [MikeSmith]
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-abarth-mime-sniff-00
15:36:52 [ArtB]
... There is a risk of hijacking
15:37:18 [ArtB]
AB: could we push this manifest to v2?
15:37:31 [ArtB]
MC: yes; if it isn't on the v2 list then I will add it
15:37:56 [ArtB]
AB: what's the next step then Marcos
15:38:12 [ArtB]
MC: I think we need impl feedback
15:38:51 [ArtB]
AB: so we could go to Candidate with the table essentially as is and see if implementors raise Red Flags?
15:38:54 [ArtB]
MC: yes
15:39:22 [ArtB]
Topic: Zip files and Encoding:
15:39:33 [ArtB]
AB: I think the main issue is that ZIP files aren't particularly portable from OS to OS
15:39:44 [ArtB]
AB: Marcos wrote about it in his blog: <http://datadriven.com.au/2008/12/08/zip-files-and-encoding-i-hate-you/>
15:40:12 [ArtB]
AB: I think one of the questions for us is basically - what, if anything, we need to do about this beyond what we've already spec'ed.
15:40:24 [ArtB]
AB: Marcos, WDYT?
15:41:05 [ArtB]
MC: I don't think is going to be a huge problem
15:41:27 [ArtB]
... I think developers will understand the problem and deal with it
15:41:47 [ArtB]
... The only "real" solution is ZIP being standardized in some place like ISO
15:41:59 [ArtB]
... I don't think we want to wait for that.
15:42:14 [ArtB]
AB: comemnts?
15:42:33 [ArtB]
JK: could mandate UTF-8 for filenames
15:43:13 [ArtB]
Arve: yes we could mandate that but the tools that are used may not be able to support that
15:44:30 [ArtB]
Arve: I don't think we want to mandate special tools
15:45:17 [ArtB]
... We have some agreed Design Goals about re-use of existing tools, specs, etc.
15:45:33 [ArtB]
... We must make authoring as simple as possible
15:45:54 [ArtB]
MC: I agree with the Arve's comments
15:47:26 [ArtB]
AB: so we could address this by taking Jere's recommendation but it would result in some issues with authoring
15:47:56 [ArtB]
JK: there could be a conformance service that helps normalize this issue
15:48:16 [ArtB]
... e.g. it is used before a Widget is deployed
15:48:39 [ArtB]
Arve: I don't think adding that into the process pipeline will work in practice
15:49:20 [ArtB]
MC: I think the best we can do is warn authors about this and we already do that
15:49:42 [ArtB]
... we recommend UTF8 but can't mandate it
15:50:36 [ArtB]
Topic: API and Events spec: getting to FPWD:
15:50:49 [ArtB]
AB: I submitted some comments to Arve via IRC earlier this week and I believe Arve has addressed them all
15:50:56 [ArtB]
... see http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/webapps/20090127
15:51:06 [ArtB]
AB: Arve has made additional edits <http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/widgets-api/>
15:51:13 [ArtB]
AB: Arve, what's the status?
15:51:27 [ArtB]
Arve: I've received a bunch of comments; thanks All!
15:51:41 [ArtB]
... I think I have addressed every comment I have received
15:51:52 [ArtB]
... check v1.8
15:52:01 [ArtB]
... Still no Refs or Acks sections
15:53:20 [ArtB]
AB: I propose we agree this document is ready for a FPWD
15:53:28 [ArtB]
AB: any objections?
15:53:31 [ArtB]
[None]
15:53:51 [ArtB]
RESOLUTION: the API and Events spec is ready for FPWD
15:53:59 [ArtB]
AB: thanks Arve and Marcos
15:54:52 [ArtB]
AB: ACTION: barstow submit paperwork to publish FPWD of APIs and Events spec
15:55:39 [ArtB]
Topic: Proposal to change VC time to one hour earlier
15:55:52 [ArtB]
AB: changing the VC time is always a tough issue because there is no real win-win here all of our world wide participants.
15:56:14 [ArtB]
AB: nevertheless, are there any objections to moving the VC time to one hour earlier?
15:56:20 [Bryan]
q+
15:56:32 [Bryan]
One hour earlier conflicts with UWA
15:56:58 [ArtB]
AB: Bryan, that is a real bummer
15:57:01 [Bryan]
It's a problem for me, but I guess I can switch off
15:57:21 [ArtB]
AB: Bryan, what does "switch off" mean?
15:57:27 [Bryan]
Alternate
15:57:46 [ArtB]
AB: Bryan, do you object to this proposal?
15:57:57 [Bryan]
No, just fyi
15:58:20 [ArtB]
RESOLUTION: the new voice conference time moving forward will be one hour earlier
15:58:29 [ArtB]
AB: any other biz?
15:58:36 [ArtB]
MC: I will not be on next week's call
15:59:29 [ArtB]
AB: good luck next week with your PhD defense!
15:59:47 [ArtB]
Benoit: any comments on the f2f document?
16:00:14 [ArtB]
... http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/images/3/3f/OrangeLab-Issy-venue.pdf
16:00:23 [Zakim]
-Andy
16:01:10 [ArtB]
Benoit: any changes in attendance?
16:01:19 [ArtB]
AB: Arve changed to "likely"
16:02:23 [ArtB]
AB: Meeting Adjourned
16:02:33 [Zakim]
-Mark
16:02:34 [Zakim]
-marcos
16:02:35 [Zakim]
-Art_Barstow
16:02:35 [Zakim]
-Jere
16:02:37 [Zakim]
-arve
16:02:44 [Zakim]
-Caroline
16:02:51 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/29-wam-minutes.html ArtB
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JereK has left #wam
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-Mike
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IA_WebApps(Widgets)10:00AM has ended
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Attendees were +1.919.342.aaaa, Art_Barstow, Andy, Jere, arve, Mark, marcos, Mike, Caroline
16:10:43 [ArtB]
zakim, bye
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Zakim has left #wam
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rrsagent, bye
16:10:48 [RRSAgent]
I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/29-wam-actions.rdf :
16:10:48 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: barstow if we make significant changes to P&C LC, do we need to go back to WD? [1]
16:10:48 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/29-wam-irc#T15-11-45
16:10:48 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Barstow followup with Doug and Mike to coordinate this issue with the SVG WG [2]
16:10:48 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/29-wam-irc#T15-32-53