15:37:40 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #mwts
15:37:40 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/01/27-mwts-irc
15:37:44 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #mwts
15:57:23 <dom> RRSAgent, make log public
15:57:23 <dom> Zakim, this will be TS
15:57:23 <Zakim> "TS" matches I18N_ITS IG()11:00AM, and MWI_TSWG()11:00AM, dom
15:57:23 <dom> Meeting: MWI Test Suites Working Group teleconf
15:57:33 <dom> Zakim, this will be TSWG
15:57:33 <Zakim> ok, dom; I see MWI_TSWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
15:58:32 <dom> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mwts/2009Jan/0020.html
15:58:37 <dom> Chair: Wilhelm
15:59:55 <Carmelo> Carmelo has joined #mwts
16:00:09 <Zakim> MWI_TSWG()11:00AM has now started
16:00:11 <Zakim> +??P1
16:00:49 <Zakim> +??P54
16:00:50 <Zakim> -??P54
16:00:50 <Zakim> +??P54
16:01:12 <Zakim> +Carmelo
16:01:40 <dom> zakim, code?
16:02:00 <Zakim> the conference code is 8794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), dom
16:02:10 <dsilaev> dsilaev has joined #mwts
16:02:12 <Zakim> +Wilhelm
16:02:24 <Zakim> +??P9
16:02:32 <dom> zakim, who's on the call?
16:02:50 <Carmelo> Carmelo is here
16:02:57 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P1, ??P54, Carmelo, Wilhelm, ??P9
16:03:33 <dom> Topic: Widgets testing
16:03:39 <dom> zakim, ??P9 is dom
16:03:42 <dom> zakim, ??P1 is Kai
16:03:48 <dom> zakim, ??P54 is dmitri
16:04:00 <dom> ACTION: Kai to continue integrating his tests WTF [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/02-mwts-minutes.html#action02] [PENDING]
16:04:08 <dom> Kai: still pending; would be good to get help from Robert
16:04:15 <dom> Wilhelm: I'll make sure he follows up
16:04:27 <Zakim> +dom; got it
16:04:27 <dom> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mwts/2009Jan/0018.html request to review testability of spec
16:04:31 <Zakim> +Kai; got it
16:04:40 <Zakim> +dmitri; got it
16:05:14 <dom> dom: they're asking for review/help on testability of the spec
16:05:29 <dom> kai: spent quite a bit of time with Marcos working with him on the specs and tests
16:05:45 <dom> ... I think he's happy now - if a bit overwhelmed :)
16:06:29 <dom> wilhelm: any specific further action needed from us?
16:06:37 <dom> kai: nothing specific, just keep doing our work
16:06:43 <dom> Topic: Device independent testing guidelines
16:06:51 <dom> ACTION: Dmitri to review the DI guidelines [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/16-mwts-minutes.html#action04] [DONE]
16:06:59 <dom> -> http://www.w3.org/mid/496CBD09.8020704@sun.com Dmitri's comments
16:07:28 <dom> Dmitri: dom sent a reply to my comments, and asked for specific contributions
16:07:34 <dom> ... I'll work on it this week
16:07:58 <dom> ACTION: Dmitri to make a proposal on dividing guidelines per test components
16:08:12 <dom> ACTION: Dom to review the di guidelines [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/18-mwts-minutes.html#action09] [DONE]
16:08:44 <dom> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mwts/2009Jan/0021.html Dom's new version of guidelines
16:09:01 <dom> -> http://dev.w3.org/2008/dev-ind-testing/guidelines.html New version of the guidelines
16:09:09 <dom> ACTION: Wilhelm to review new version of guidelines
16:09:15 <dom> ACTION: Carmelo to review new version of guidelines
16:09:20 <dom> ACTION: Kai to review new version of guidelines
16:09:31 <dom> Topic: Memory Test
16:09:43 <dom> ACTION: Kai to implement binary search tree to determin limits of memory test [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/13-mwts-minutes.html#action06] [DONE]
16:09:56 <dom> -> http://www.w3.org/mid/b24851260901250841n3221c193p466cb30f6785ccb5@mail.gmail.com Kai's announcement of implementation
16:10:05 <dom> -> http://static.webvm.net/json Memory test
16:10:21 <dom> Wilhelm: how I should run it? How do I know if I'm getting the proper results?
16:10:38 <dom> Kai: it starts with the highest test; if that doesn't work, you go to lowest
16:10:49 <dom> ... and then you go to middle steps
16:11:11 <dom> q+ to ask what 'what doesn't work' mean?
16:11:23 <dom> ... one pb is that if you start too high, you may crash the browser
16:11:48 <dom> ... on my nokia device, I tried that, crashed the browser, and the memory wasn't cleared
16:12:14 <dom> ack dom
16:12:14 <Zakim> dom, you wanted to ask what 'what doesn't work' mean?
16:12:38 <dom> Kai: when it works, it gives you a message "server limit exceeded" or something like that
16:13:11 <dom> ... user agents with good memory capabilities can reach that
16:13:18 <dom> ... it's roughly for 2 Mo of data
16:13:51 <dom> Dom: maybe we could have something more user friendly than "server limit exceeded" :) ?
16:14:00 <dom> ... if we want to further advertise that test
16:14:15 <dom> Kai: could this be brought to another server to reduce the load on my server?
16:14:34 <dom> ACTION: Dom to check if we can host the memory test on a W3C server
16:14:53 <dom> ACTION: Kai to make success message in memory test more userfriendly
16:15:07 <dom> Kai: currently the generation of the data is kind of intensive
16:15:18 <dom> Dom: why is it generated on the fly?
16:15:26 <dom> Kai: it was the easiest way of doing it :)
16:15:43 <dom> ... I could probably be doing it more efficiently
16:15:57 <dom> ... but in any case, this is likely to create load on whatever server hosts it
16:16:15 <dom> ... code is written in shell, should be fairly easy to read
16:16:57 <dom> ... Apprently, IE Mobile can't go over 1MB
16:17:09 <dom> ACTION: Dom to run the memory test on his devices [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/06-mwts-minutes.html#action08] [PENDING]
16:17:18 <dom> ACTION: Wilhelm to run the memory test on his devices [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/06-mwts-minutes.html#action07] [PENDING]
16:17:24 <dom> Topic: Web Compatibility Test
16:17:42 <dom> ACTION: Kai to look into creating test cases for SSL and certificates support on mobile [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/13-mwts-minutes.html#action09] [PENDING]
16:18:00 <dom> Kai: I think I might have given up on this - it is really difficult to come up with something
16:18:28 <dom> ... I would really like to make sure user agents allow to see trusted roots
16:18:31 <dom> ACTION: Kai to look into creating test cases for SSL and certificates support on mobile [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/13-mwts-minutes.html#action09] [DROPPED]
16:18:36 <dom> RRSAgent, drop action 13
16:18:55 <dom> ACTION: Kai to push forward with finding a replacement for the inputmode test [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/16-mwts-minutes.html#action07] [PENDING]
16:18:59 <dom> Kai: no progress on my side
16:19:08 <dom> ACTION: WIhelm to look into replacement for inputmode test [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/06-mwts-minutes.html#action05] [PENDING]
16:19:15 <dom> Wilhelm: a couple of possible interested areas:
16:19:34 <dom> ... javascript timers - I'm writing a spec and tests around them
16:19:36 <wilhelm> http://people.opera.com/wilhelmja/timers/tests/
16:19:49 <dom> Kai: is there any problem with timers?
16:19:59 <dom> Wilhelm: sometimes they're inaccurate, sometimes they don't work
16:20:02 <wilhelm> Notes: http://people.opera.com/wilhelmja/timers/data.html
16:21:00 <dom> Wilhelm: another idea would be MathML through CSS
16:21:12 <dom> ... not sure if that can be done with red/green square
16:21:28 <dom> ... I'm also going through the DOM specs to see if I can find something interesting there
16:21:38 <dom> Kai: I'll look in the timers stuff myself
16:21:52 <dom> Wilhelm: there is no spec for it yet
16:22:04 <dom> Kai: no spec from ECMAscript on this?
16:22:28 <dom> Wilhelm: nope; only ancient documentation from mozilla, and some stuff in html5
16:22:38 <dom> Kai: isn't MathML an XML-namespaced thing?
16:22:51 <dom> Wilhelm: it is, but the CSS profile for it is significantly simpler
16:23:17 <dom> Topic: Blog
16:23:42 <dom> -> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/Tests/blog/2009/01/19/what_s_measured_improves_1 What's measured improves, by Kai
16:23:50 <dom> Wilhelm: what should be our next post?
16:23:59 <dom> Kai: maybe talking about our search for a new test?
16:24:03 <dom> Wilhelm: sounds good
16:24:13 <dom> ACTION: Kai to prepare a blog post
16:25:05 <dom> Dom: Paul Nelson left a comment on the HTTPS test
16:25:19 <dom> ACTION: Wilhelm to follow up on the blog comment re HTTPS
16:25:31 <dom> Topic: Agreement on test suites with OMA
16:25:40 <dom> ACTION: Wilhem to send Opera's feedback on OMA test suites [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/18-mwts-minutes.html#action16] [PENDING]
16:25:52 <dom> ACTION: Dom to look back at OMA situation and report [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/18-mwts-minutes.html#action15] [PENDING]
16:25:58 <dom> Topic: Rechartering
16:26:24 <dom> Carmelo: will follow-up on NIST re-joining 
16:26:47 <dom> Topic: Report from AWTA 2009
16:27:02 <dom> -> http://awta.wikispaces.com/AWTA+2009 AWTA 2009
16:27:14 <dom> Wilhelm: small but active conference, with 25 participants
16:27:28 <dom> ... around the Watir framework that can be used to automate browser testing
16:27:39 <dom> ... originally built for IE around COM components
16:27:50 <dom> ... can be used to make browsers do anything
16:28:01 <dom> ... various people are working on extending this to other browsers
16:28:10 <dom> ... we made a presentation on our Opera implementation
16:28:22 <dom> ... can be done on any opera device
16:28:30 <dom> ... it's made for being used over the wire
16:29:02 <dom> ... There was discussions on the different frameworks used
16:29:10 <dom> ... and how web applications testers did their testing
16:29:20 <dom> ... I think it's an important community to keep an eye on
16:29:44 <dom> ... cross-browsers support for this could permit automate testing for web standards conformance
16:30:07 <dom> dom: were there other browser vendors?
16:30:25 <dom> Wilhelm: nope, but someone has implemented it for Safari through Applescript
16:30:47 <dom> ... I think there is official support from the Chrome Team
16:30:58 <dom> Dom: any opportunity for getting other browsers to join that effort?
16:31:10 <dom> Wilhelm: no official support for IE, but it "just works"
16:31:38 <dom> ... the firewater implementation for firefox is not officially supported by Mozilla, but the extension mechanism allows to do it fairly simply
16:31:53 <dom> s/firewater/firewatir/
16:32:38 <dom> dom: but is there any need to help there, or is just a matter of letting the community provide whatever is needed?
16:33:15 <dom> wilhelm: running code is mostly what's needed at this point
16:33:46 <dom> ... getting browser vendors to support this officially would be great, but isn't strictly required
16:33:58 <dom> kai: was there any talk about pocket IE?
16:34:05 <dom> Wilhelm: no, it wasn't
16:34:11 <dom> ... not sure what APIs they expose
16:34:20 <dom> Kai: I think it should be easy
16:35:47 <dom> Wilhelm: our implementations has 3 parts: the opera binary, to which you can communicate through a documented protocol, a proxy that connects to the binary, and tests scripts based
16:35:56 <dom> ... we're adding support for Watir in our tests scripts
16:36:08 <dom> -> http://wtr.rubyforge.org/ Automated testing that doesn’t hurt
16:36:26 <wilhelm> http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/opera-dragonfly-architecture/
16:37:00 <dom> Kai: support for Watir needs to be added in Opera binary?
16:37:25 <dom> Wilhelm: some can be added through javascript; some require new APIs in the binary, which we are adding
16:38:15 <dom> Topic: Next meeting
16:38:20 <dom> Next week (Feb 3rd)
16:38:42 <Zakim> -dmitri
16:38:44 <hendry> dom: it's not such much Marcos was overwhelmed, it's more that Marcos is worried about the unstabiblity of the spec. Though i'm managing that. just need get people's expectations a little slower.
16:38:49 <Zakim> -Wilhelm
16:38:59 <dom> s/dom:/dom,/
16:39:42 <Zakim> -Kai
16:39:44 <Zakim> -dom
16:39:45 <Zakim> MWI_TSWG()11:00AM has ended
16:39:47 <Zakim> Attendees were Carmelo, Wilhelm, dom, Kai, dmitri
16:39:51 <dom> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:39:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/27-mwts-minutes.html dom
16:39:53 <dom> zakim, bye
16:39:53 <Zakim> Zakim has left #mwts
16:40:13 <dom> s/<dom> ->/<dom_scribe> ->/g
16:40:15 <dom> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:40:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/27-mwts-minutes.html dom
16:41:32 <hendry> wilhelm: is the opera protocol the same one used in opera mini <-> server communication ?
16:42:46 <wilhelm> No. That's something completely differerent. The scope protocol is for sending commands to the browser and get something back. The Opera Mini servers transcode websites from HTML to OBML (Opera Binary Markup Language), which is a propertiary compressed format.
16:48:02 <hendry> wilhelm: thank you for the clarification :)
16:48:53 <wilhelm> We use scope for remote debugging with our Dragonfly tool, which is similiar to Firebug.
16:52:51 <dom> RRSAgent, bye
16:52:51 <RRSAgent> I see 19 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/27-mwts-actions.rdf :
16:52:51 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Kai to continue integrating his tests WTF [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/02-mwts-minutes.html#action02] [PENDING] [1]
16:52:51 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/27-mwts-irc#T16-04-00
16:52:51 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Dmitri to review the DI guidelines [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/16-mwts-minutes.html#action04] [DONE] [2]
16:52:51 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/27-mwts-irc#T16-06-51
16:52:51 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Dmitri to make a proposal on dividing guidelines per test components [3]
16:52:51 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/27-mwts-irc#T16-07-58
16:52:51 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Dom to review the di guidelines [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/18-mwts-minutes.html#action09] [DONE] [4]
16:52:51 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/27-mwts-irc#T16-08-12
16:52:51 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Wilhelm to review new version of guidelines [5]
16:52:51 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/27-mwts-irc#T16-09-09
16:52:51 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Carmelo to review new version of guidelines [6]
16:52:51 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/27-mwts-irc#T16-09-15
16:52:51 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Kai to review new version of guidelines [7]
16:52:51 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/27-mwts-irc#T16-09-20
16:52:51 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Kai to implement binary search tree to determin limits of memory test [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/13-mwts-minutes.html#action06] [DONE] [8]
16:52:51 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/27-mwts-irc#T16-09-43
16:52:51 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Dom to check if we can host the memory test on a W3C server [9]
16:52:51 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/27-mwts-irc#T16-14-34
16:52:51 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Kai to make success message in memory test more userfriendly [10]
16:52:51 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/27-mwts-irc#T16-14-53
16:52:51 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Dom to run the memory test on his devices [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/06-mwts-minutes.html#action08] [PENDING] [11]
16:52:51 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/27-mwts-irc#T16-17-09
16:52:51 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Wilhelm to run the memory test on his devices [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/06-mwts-minutes.html#action07] [PENDING] [12]
16:52:51 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/27-mwts-irc#T16-17-18
16:52:51 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Kai to look into creating test cases for SSL and certificates support on mobile [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/13-mwts-minutes.html#action09] [DROPPED] [14]
16:52:51 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/27-mwts-irc#T16-18-31
16:52:51 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Kai to push forward with finding a replacement for the inputmode test [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/16-mwts-minutes.html#action07] [PENDING] [15]
16:52:51 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/27-mwts-irc#T16-18-55
16:52:51 <RRSAgent> ACTION: WIhelm to look into replacement for inputmode test [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/06-mwts-minutes.html#action05] [PENDING] [16]
16:52:51 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/27-mwts-irc#T16-19-08
16:52:51 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Kai to prepare a blog post [17]
16:52:51 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/27-mwts-irc#T16-24-13
16:52:51 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Wilhelm to follow up on the blog comment re HTTPS [18]
16:52:51 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/27-mwts-irc#T16-25-19
16:52:51 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Wilhem to send Opera's feedback on OMA test suites [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/18-mwts-minutes.html#action16] [PENDING] [19]
16:52:51 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/27-mwts-irc#T16-25-40
16:52:51 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Dom to look back at OMA situation and report [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/18-mwts-minutes.html#action15] [PENDING] [20]
16:52:51 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/27-mwts-irc#T16-25-52