IRC log of ua on 2008-11-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

18:43:23 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
18:43:23 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-ua-irc
18:43:34 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, set logs public
18:43:47 [AllanJ]
zakim, this will be wai_
18:43:47 [Zakim]
ok, AllanJ; I see WAI_UAWG()2:00PM scheduled to start in 17 minutes
18:44:06 [AllanJ]
title: UAWG telecon
18:44:15 [AllanJ]
chair: Jim Allan
18:49:25 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
18:49:37 [jeanne]
trackbot, start meeting
18:49:40 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
18:49:42 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
18:49:42 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()2:00PM scheduled to start in 11 minutes
18:49:43 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
18:49:43 [trackbot]
Date: 20 November 2008
18:56:52 [AllanJ]
regrets: Simon_Harper, Jan_Richards, Alan_Cantor,
18:57:49 [jeanne]
zakim, code?
18:57:49 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jeanne
18:58:02 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()2:00PM has now started
18:58:09 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
19:00:40 [Zakim]
+allanj
19:01:58 [AllanJ_]
AllanJ_ has joined #ua
19:03:07 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
19:05:58 [Zakim]
+Mark_Hakkinen
19:06:26 [judy]
judy has joined #ua
19:06:33 [judy]
zakim, dial judy-office
19:06:33 [Zakim]
ok, judy; the call is being made
19:06:35 [Zakim]
+Judy
19:06:38 [jeanne]
zakim, [Micro is KFord
19:06:38 [Zakim]
+KFord; got it
19:09:05 [judy]
judy has changed the topic to: hi, this is an example new topic title
19:09:54 [jeanne]
jeanne has changed the topic to: Today's agenda at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008OctDec/0056.html
19:12:10 [jeanne]
scribe:jeanne
19:12:39 [jeanne]
Topic: Review survey items
19:14:16 [jeanne2]
jeanne2 has joined #ua
19:15:36 [jeanne2]
JB: 8 people responded. Next time, let's link to the results in the agenda.
19:16:14 [jeanne2]
topic: Changing the meeting time
19:16:48 [jeanne2]
JB: Was Simon's concern the day of the week, or the lateness of the hour?
19:16:59 [jeanne2]
JS: Lateness of the hour.
19:17:12 [KFord]
KFord has joined #ua
19:17:25 [jeanne2]
Would moving the call one hour earlier help? Probably, but we need to ask Simon.
19:17:51 [jeanne2]
MH: Usually am traveling on Thursday afternoons.
19:18:18 [KFord]
Scribe: KFord
19:18:40 [KFord]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:18:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-ua-minutes.html KFord
19:19:01 [jeanne2]
action: JS to change the time of the conference in Zakim bridge and update the web site with change of time to Thursday 1:00.
19:19:01 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-84 - Change the time of the conference in Zakim bridge and update the web site with change of time to Thursday 1:00. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-11-27].
19:19:27 [KFord]
Meeting time will be moved to one hour earlier going forward. This will be at 10A Pacific and 1P Eastern.
19:19:58 [jeanne2]
topic: Rewording of Principle 2
19:20:22 [KFord]
Discussing changing of wording to simply facilitate programatic access.
19:21:07 [KFord]
JB Remind me what else this might be other than assistive technology.
19:21:20 [KFord]
JA: I think this was things like mobile phones or technology.
19:21:46 [KFord]
JB: What if we say facilitate programatic access by other techologies including assistive technologies. I think we need more.
19:22:08 [KFord]
JB: It seems uncontextual when it is this short.
19:22:16 [KFord]
JB: No one else is having this issue?
19:22:35 [KFord]
JA: This was Simon's issue. I think he was just not wanting it limited to assistive technology.
19:23:16 [mth]
mth has joined #ua
19:23:35 [KFord]
JB: To further explain my concern, programatic access is still abstract to a lot of people. Having something on the back end to provide more context could help. Buyt let's try it with nothing on the back end and see what kind of feedback we get.
19:23:36 [jeanne2]
Simon had brought up facilitating access by whatever else, not just assistive technologies
19:23:55 [KFord]
Action: JS Update draft with accepted change for programatic access.
19:23:56 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-85 - Update draft with accepted change for programatic access. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-11-27].
19:24:29 [KFord]
Topic: Rewording/updating of 2.1.1 and 2.1.3
19:24:32 [jeanne2]
action: JS to update new draft with new wording of Principle 2 from survey of Nov 20.
19:24:33 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-86 - Update new draft with new wording of Principle 2 from survey of Nov 20. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-11-27].
19:25:25 [judy]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/UAWG20081106/results
19:25:50 [AllanJ_]
AllanJ_ has joined #ua
19:27:50 [KFord]
topic: Proposal to clarify and perhaps integrate 2.1.2 and 2.1.3existing version
19:28:45 [KFord]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:28:45 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-ua-minutes.html KFord
19:30:08 [KFord]
Group reviewed existing responses to survey.
19:30:54 [KFord]
JS: As background, I had received JAN's proposal to combine and so had set that up. Then I found an older proposal and added that.
19:32:15 [KFord]
JA: I think 2.1.3 is trying to get at if some functionality isn't accessible then you need to document this. I think all the wording is trying to get at that concept.
19:36:01 [AllanJ]
KF: 2.1.2 say you must provide these things
19:36:27 [AllanJ]
... 2.1.3 says if you can't do these things, then you must have a fall back and document it
19:36:54 [KFord]
JS: I don't think we have consensus. JAN is saying he really doesn't want the second and Kelly doesn't want the first.
19:37:23 [KFord]
JA: I think Kelly's comments were making this clear and they seem to support separate items.
19:37:53 [KFord]
JB: Yes. I think we should be writing things so they are very obvious to people.
19:38:53 [KFord]
Action: KF to take another stab at 2.1.3
19:38:53 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-87 - Take another stab at 2.1.3 [on Kelly Ford - due 2008-11-27].
19:40:58 [KFord]
Topic: JB would like to talk about process of how to work with tools here.JS describes describes history of how we arrived at the state for 2.1.2 and 2.1.3 with long history where scribe notes should have been better and such.
19:41:23 [KFord]
That is JS described this history.
19:41:53 [KFord]
JB: Actions should be clearer. That is action, assigned, verb, clear wording and number of item being talked about.
19:42:12 [KFord]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:42:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-ua-minutes.html KFord
19:43:28 [judy]
zakim, action items?
19:43:28 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, judy.
19:43:31 [jeanne2]
zakim, action?
19:43:31 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, jeanne2.
19:43:37 [judy]
zakim, show me action items?
19:43:37 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, judy.
19:43:38 [jeanne2]
zakim, actions?
19:43:39 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, jeanne2.
19:43:42 [judy]
zakim, help
19:43:42 [Zakim]
Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot for more detailed help.
19:43:44 [Zakim]
Some of the commands I know are:
19:43:50 [Zakim]
xxx is yyy - establish yyy as the name of unknown party xxx
19:43:57 [Zakim]
if yyy is 'me' or 'I', your nick is substituted
19:44:02 [Zakim]
xxx may be yyy - establish yyy as possibly the name of unknown party xxx
19:44:05 [Zakim]
I am xxx - establish your nick as the name of unknown party xxx
19:44:07 [Zakim]
xxx holds yyy [, zzz ...] - establish xxx as a group name and yyy, etc. as participants within that group
19:44:11 [Zakim]
xxx also holds yyy - add yyy to the list of participants in group xxx
19:44:13 [Zakim]
who's here? - lists the participants on the phone
19:44:16 [Zakim]
who's muted? - lists the participants who are muted
19:44:19 [Zakim]
mute xxx - mutes party xxx (like pressing 61#)
19:44:21 [Zakim]
unmute xxx - reverses the effect of "mute" and of 61#
19:44:23 [Zakim]
is xxx here? - reports whether a party named like xxx is present
19:44:25 [Zakim]
list conferences - reports the active conferences
19:44:27 [Zakim]
this is xxx - associates this channel with conference xxx
19:44:28 [Zakim]
excuse us - disconnects from the irc channel
19:44:29 [Zakim]
I last learned something new on $Date: 2008/10/03 21:56:07 $
19:45:28 [judy]
rrsagent, help
19:46:03 [judy]
rrsagent, actions?
19:46:03 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. Sorry, nothing found for 'actions'
19:46:11 [mth]
mth has joined #ua
19:46:25 [KFord]
group takes a minute to review commands for technology used.
19:47:49 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
19:47:58 [AllanJ]
AllanJ has joined #ua
19:48:29 [KFord]
Topic: Proposal to reword 3.2.2
19:48:53 [jeanne]
resolved: Keep 2.1.2 and 2.1.3 separate to improve clarity.
19:51:05 [KFord]
JA: From some of the discussion it makes things too complex to mix synchronized media and non-synchronized.
19:51:46 [KFord]
JA: Non-synchronized is easy. I always want alt text or I want titles.
19:51:58 [KFord]
JA: Synchronized isn't as easy.
19:52:28 [KFord]
JS: I hear three options. 1. Straight substitution, 2. Cascade and 3 reflow.
19:52:45 [KFord]
JS: I'd suggest we approach from that angle.
19:54:14 [jeanne2]
jeanne2 has joined #ua
19:54:35 [jeanne2]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:54:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-ua-minutes.html jeanne2
19:54:42 [KFord]
MH: If you take existint 3.2.2 and append the final sentence of the proposed this would be good.
19:54:54 [AllanJ]
3.2.2 Configurable Default Rendering: The user has the global option to set preferences for which alternative(s) are rendered by default. If the new content has different dimensions, then the user agent will reflow the viewport accordingly.
19:54:58 [KFord]
s/existint/existing
19:55:59 [AllanJ]
>3.2.2 Configurable Default Rendering: The user has the global option to set preferences for which alternatives are rendered by default. If the new content has different dimensions, then the user agent will reflow the viewport accordingly.
19:56:46 [KFord]
KF: Correct new to alternative
19:57:03 [AllanJ]
3.2.2 Configurable Default Rendering: The user has the global option to set preferences for which alternatives are rendered by default. If the alternative content has different dimensions, then the user agent will reflow the viewport accordingly.
19:58:07 [jeanne3]
jeanne3 has joined #ua
19:58:17 [KFord]
JA: Just to be clear this would say for images the user can choose between alt or title but for movies the user could pick different captions of what's available. We'd put this in a techniques document and not all the synchroness media in the guidelines?
19:58:21 [KFord]
MH: I think that's corrtect.
19:58:43 [KFord]
s/corrtect/correct
19:59:06 [KFord]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:59:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-ua-minutes.html KFord
19:59:21 [AllanJ]
3.2.2 Configurable Default Rendering: The user has the global option to set preferences for which alternatives are rendered by default. If the alternative content has different dimensions, then the user agent will reflow the viewport accordingly.
19:59:34 [mth]
mth has joined #ua
20:00:40 [KFord]
JA: We still haven't covered the cascade and I don't want to lose that.
20:01:03 [jeanne3]
+1 to have a SC about the cascade
20:01:12 [KFord]
JA: It needs to be a success criteria or needs to be in these words.
20:02:04 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
20:03:31 [AllanJ]
KF: user gets to choose, give me alt, if no alt then title etc.
20:03:57 [AllanJ]
...level A choose one
20:04:19 [AllanJ]
...level AA set up cascade tree
20:06:15 [AllanJ]
MH: does the user make the cascade or does the UA
20:08:34 [jeanne2]
jeanne2 has joined #ua
20:08:35 [AllanJ]
KF: perhaps we need to add statement about cascade
20:08:40 [AllanJ]
3.2.2 Configurable Default Rendering: The user has the global option to set preferences from a cascade for which alternatives are rendered by default. If the alternative content has different dimensions, then the user agent will reflow the viewport accordingly.
20:09:40 [KFord]
JS: HTML5 is looking at different scenarios for alt text and lack of alt text.
20:10:10 [KFord]
JS: If someone uploads photos and doesn't put captions, the authoring tool isn't
20:10:56 [KFord]
putting alt text. It could put a machine generated. But the user agent could ask the user if they want the machine generated alt or something else.
20:12:49 [jeanne3]
jeanne3 has joined #ua
20:13:02 [KFord]
JA: Thjis is all related to the alternative context stack Jan and I talked about.
20:13:46 [KFord]
s/thjis/this
20:14:38 [AllanJ]
The user has the global option to set preferences from a cascading list of alternatives are rendered by default.
20:14:45 [KFord]
JA goes through examples of alternative content stack. Key is that there are many versions of content and for accessibility it is critical that the user be able to select the one that most meets his or her needs.
20:15:13 [KFord]
Action: JA to update 3.2.2 with new wording.
20:15:14 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-88 - Update 3.2.2 with new wording. [on Jim Allan - due 2008-11-27].
20:16:13 [KFord]
JB: I had a question about the second sentence here dealing with content reflow. Were we keeping this?
20:16:31 [KFord]
JB: If we keep this, the phrase has different dimensions needs better explanation.
20:18:08 [KFord]
JB What do you mean by different dimensions?
20:18:33 [KFord]
Group: this about about the size of the area used to show the alternative content.
20:19:39 [KFord]
KF: Possibility is that the viewport should be adjusted appropriately for the alternative being displayed.
20:20:01 [AllanJ]
KF: the viewport should be adjust to all the alternative content to be displayed
20:20:07 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
20:20:44 [KFord]
rrsagent, make minutes
20:20:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-ua-minutes.html KFord
20:21:03 [judy]
judy: the viewport should be adjustable to enable full viewing of the alternative content
20:21:08 [mth]
mth has joined #ua
20:21:18 [jeanne]
The viewport should be adjusted to accommodate the alternative text
20:22:29 [AllanJ]
...to enable full viewing of the alternative content
20:23:18 [AllanJ]
action: JA to rewrite 3.2.2 incorporate cascade and voewport accommodates the alternative content. don't mention 'dimensions'
20:23:18 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-89 - Rewrite 3.2.2 incorporate cascade and voewport accommodates the alternative content. don't mention 'dimensions' [on Jim Allan - due 2008-11-27].
20:25:01 [jeanne2]
jeanne2 has joined #ua
20:26:27 [jeanne2]
jeanne2 has joined #ua
20:26:44 [KFord]
Topic: Getting draft out
20:27:02 [KFord]
Discussion about needing to get a new draft out. We need to get something out in December.
20:27:43 [KFord]
Close Action - 89
20:28:33 [KFord]
close ACTION-88
20:28:33 [trackbot]
ACTION-88 Update 3.2.2 with new wording. closed
20:28:59 [jeanne2]
action: JS to scrub UAAG document for heartbeat publication and generate survey questions where needed that could be resolved at the next meeting.
20:28:59 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-90 - Scrub UAAG document for heartbeat publication and generate survey questions where needed that could be resolved at the next meeting. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-11-27].
20:32:32 [KFord]
Group trying to freeze editor draft on 12/4.
20:33:01 [KFord]
JB With last draft we didn't get many comments. With next draft we need more comments.
20:33:22 [KFord]
Action: JS add brainstorm on how to get comments to next meeting agenda.
20:33:23 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-91 - Add brainstorm on how to get comments to next meeting agenda. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-11-27].
20:35:14 [Zakim]
-Mark_Hakkinen
20:35:17 [Zakim]
-Judy
20:36:28 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
20:36:41 [Zakim]
-KFord
20:36:49 [AllanJ]
Check tracker for open action items, work on them please... http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/open
20:37:01 [KFord]
rrsagent, make minutes
20:37:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-ua-minutes.html KFord
20:38:01 [KFord]
zakim, please part
20:38:01 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Jeanne, allanj, [Microsoft], Mark_Hakkinen, Judy, KFord
20:38:01 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
20:38:49 [KFord]
rrsagent, make minutes
20:38:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-ua-minutes.html KFord
20:40:04 [KFord]
rrsagent, please part
20:40:04 [RRSAgent]
I see 8 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-ua-actions.rdf :
20:40:04 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JS to change the time of the conference in Zakim bridge and update the web site with change of time to Thursday 1:00. [1]
20:40:04 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-ua-irc#T19-19-01
20:40:04 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JS Update draft with accepted change for programatic access. [2]
20:40:04 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-ua-irc#T19-23-55
20:40:04 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JS to update new draft with new wording of Principle 2 from survey of Nov 20. [3]
20:40:04 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-ua-irc#T19-24-32
20:40:04 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: KF to take another stab at 2.1.3 [4]
20:40:04 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-ua-irc#T19-38-53
20:40:04 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JA to update 3.2.2 with new wording. [5]
20:40:04 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-ua-irc#T20-15-13
20:40:04 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JA to rewrite 3.2.2 incorporate cascade and voewport accommodates the alternative content. don't mention 'dimensions' [6]
20:40:04 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-ua-irc#T20-23-18
20:40:04 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JS to scrub UAAG document for heartbeat publication and generate survey questions where needed that could be resolved at the next meeting. [7]
20:40:04 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-ua-irc#T20-28-59
20:40:04 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JS add brainstorm on how to get comments to next meeting agenda. [8]
20:40:04 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-ua-irc#T20-33-22