16:58:26 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-wg
16:58:26 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/11/13-html-wg-irc
16:58:28 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:58:28 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #html-wg
16:58:30 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HTML
16:58:30 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()12:00PM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
16:58:31 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Issue Tracking Teleconference
16:58:31 <trackbot> Date: 13 November 2008
16:58:33 <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike
16:58:33 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
16:58:34 <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
16:58:34 <Zakim> +Mike
16:58:54 <MikeSmith> Zakim, code?
16:58:54 <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), MikeSmith
16:59:03 <MikeSmith> Chair: MikeSmith
16:59:17 <Zakim> +DanC
16:59:35 <arne> arne has joined #html-wg
16:59:45 <Zakim> +??P2
16:59:59 <Joshue> zakim, ??p2 is Joshue
16:59:59 <Zakim> +Joshue; got it
17:01:14 <deane> deane has joined #html-wg
17:02:24 <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
17:02:41 <MikeSmith> Regrets+ ChrisWilson, LauraCarlson, Julian
17:02:56 <MikeSmith> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2008OctDec/0005.html
17:02:58 <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG telcon 2008-11-13 - f2f summary, markup spec, authoring guide from Michael(tm) Smith on 2008-11-12 (public-html-wg-announce@w3.org from October to December 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
17:03:05 <Zakim> + +1.519.378.aaaa
17:03:06 <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
17:03:07 <Zakim> On the phone I see Mike, DanC, Joshue, Cynthia_Shelly, +1.519.378.aaaa
17:03:20 <DanC> Zakim, aaaa is MurrayM
17:03:20 <Zakim> +MurrayM; got it
17:03:34 <MikeSmith> Present+ MikeSmith, DanC, Josh, Cynthia, MurrayMaloney
17:05:18 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
17:05:41 <MikeSmith> Present+ AdrianBatemen
17:05:42 <DanC> Zakim, [Microsoft] is Adrian
17:05:42 <Zakim> +Adrian; got it
17:06:50 <Joshue> scribenick:Joshue
17:06:53 <MikeSmith> scribenick: Joshue 
17:07:01 <MikeSmith> scribe: Joshue
17:07:22 <Joshue> TOPIC: Markup Lanhuage Spec
17:07:33 <Joshue> s/Lanhuage/Language
17:08:06 <Joshue> MikeS: I posted a draft of the spec that I have been working on. It would be helpful as a starting point.
17:08:07 <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/markup-spec/
17:08:08 <pimpbot> Title: HTML: The Markup Language (at www.w3.org)
17:08:25 <MikeSmith> Zakim, mute Joshue
17:08:25 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
17:09:03 <Joshue> MikeS: I realize very few have looked at it. Has anyone initial comments?
17:09:42 <Joshue> MikeS: Gives outline of abstract
17:10:26 <Joshue> MikeS: The doc defines authors, producers and consumers differently. 
17:11:30 <Joshue> MikeS: Gives further details. No normative criteria, web browsers are not defined in terms of how they parse HTML, Is not intended to be an aurthoring guide.
17:12:35 <Joshue> MikeS: HTML Syntax is described. Various Mime Types are discussed. Its the same prose as defined in the current draft, prettty much. Optional BOM are mentioned etc.
17:13:15 <Joshue> MikeS: DOC Type, character encoding etc are defined. The remianing part of spec is a list of HTML elements and their content models, attributes and values etc.
17:13:33 <takkaria> I had a brief look, looked reasonable, but I would be worried people take it for normative
17:14:34 <Joshue> MikeS: In addition there is a section on common content models, phrase and prose content matches bloack and inline content. Then definitions of sets of common attributes. Similar to HTML 4 draft and other markup specs.
17:15:42 <Joshue> MikeS: Last part deals with ARIA markup, attribute sets, enumerated values for ARIA attributes. Semantics uundefined as they are in the ARIA spec. Then exahistive list of name character references.
17:16:40 <Joshue> MM: Test kit being build.
17:16:52 <Joshue> MikeS: Not a schema?
17:17:07 <Joshue> MM: Its a grammer to build a parser.
17:17:20 <Joshue> MikeS: Interesting
17:17:33 <Joshue> MM: I will ask him to join WG.
17:17:42 <MikeSmith> q?
17:17:43 <Joshue> MS: WIll you have more infor next week?
17:17:46 <Joshue> MM: Yes
17:17:59 <Joshue> s/infor/info
17:18:33 <Joshue> Adrian: Do you have a view as to how having this doc changes what the HTML 5 spec is/does? 
17:20:10 <Joshue> MS: Right now as far as content models and syntax description. This matches what is in the HTML 5 draft. We want to keep things that way. We need to decide that the current part of semantics, content models etc should be kept there. We need to keep them in synch. As different docs have diff editors there may not always be agreement.
17:20:51 <Joshue> MS: We want this to be normative. There can only be one  spec so this will superceed anything else.
17:22:11 <Joshue> Adrian: This looks like a good start. In terms of a descriptive doc that talks about the language and not its use. However, how practical is this? How much of the text has been taken from the HTML 5 draft? 
17:22:52 <Joshue> MS: This spec should have a lot of non-normative content.
17:25:56 <Joshue> MS: It should not describe rendering behaviors normatively, or have too much description of rendering behavior etc. many say the current draft conflates authoring and rendering domains. These are seperate so there is confusion. I like to have the markup spec not do this anymore. Seperate some of  the under the hood stuff from the user manual aspect. Want to see the spec defined as an abstract language without processing assumptions.
17:26:13 <MikeSmith> s/This spec should have/This spec should not have/
17:26:19 <Joshue> Adrian: That is a good goal.
17:26:34 <MikeSmith> q?
17:26:36 <DanC> (trying to construct a proof in my head that the language defined in Mike's draft is smaller than the language in Hixie's draft; hmm... don't think there is one... I think it's not actually a theorem. I think there are counter-examples)
17:26:40 <Joshue> Joshue things this may make it easier to uunderstand for all concerned.
17:26:50 <DanC> ack me
17:26:51 <Joshue> s/things/thinks
17:27:13 <Joshue> DacC: Its not smaller than the language Hixie defines as conformant.
17:27:36 <Joshue> DanC: In that docs conforming to his spec is conforming to yours.
17:27:40 <Joshue> MS; It is.
17:27:46 <Joshue> DanC: I don't think so.
17:27:55 <DanC> (other way around)
17:28:05 <Joshue> MS: You are right.
17:28:54 <DanC> DanC: e.g. documents that misuse headings, cite, etc. are prohibited by the HTML 5 spec
17:29:59 <Joshue> MS: Discusses schemas, parsing of schemas, attribute model and pattern definitions. RelaxNG etc.
17:31:55 <Joshue> MS: Programmatic extracts/additions of certain content via Schematron. Josh unable to parse some statements.
17:32:09 <Joshue> Cythia: I am curious why this is done that way?
17:32:55 <DanC> (I think having feedback between validation tools and the spec is good... though this is something of an extreme approach)
17:33:24 <Joshue> MS; It is circular. Not ideal. Changes to the spec will go other way, or not be one way from validator to the spec. If changes are made the assertions that vlidator.nu are making will have to be changed to match the spec. At his point they are one way.
17:33:40 <Joshue> Cynthia: It is reasonable to do this in order to get the spec out.
17:35:17 <Joshue> MS: Its about having a formal description of the language. Formalisims are currently prose desciptions in order to not lock people who write a conformance checker. High level language used in order to design a tool around it loosely.
17:35:53 <DanC> (publishing the schema as a note is an interesting idea.)
17:36:54 <Joshue> MS: Hixie feels there should not a normative shema for the language. Other builders have a disincentive to build anything. All of these normative schemas for the language seemed to stop others from developeing their own. We want to avoid this, having only one tool.
17:37:16 <Joshue> Cythia: Yes, some need this behind a firewall.
17:37:29 <Joshue> MS: This can be done and works well.
17:37:31 <MikeSmith> q?
17:37:37 <DanC> q+ murray
17:37:50 <DanC> ack murray
17:37:54 <Joshue> Cythia: We dont want to give advantage to one set of schemas.
17:39:04 <Joshue> MM: When developing a formalism for HTML, we can build a grammer, define constraints etc. It depends on what you are trying to do.
17:41:14 <Joshue> MM: Grammer needs to be correct. Stuff taken from different namespaces can be dealt with. Others have more rigorous purposes, may not be public facing. The grammer needs to be examined to be a more liberal version that conformance checkers want to use, then good stuff.
17:41:41 <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
17:42:03 <Joshue> MS: Existing validators, and HTML 4. ZHTML 1.0 and 1.1 (DTD based validation tools)
17:43:02 <Joshue> MM: When you procude a DTD, the doc that accompanies it is produced alongside it. There are better formalisms to do this etc
17:43:30 <Joshue> MS: I understand. Validator.nu is doing a lot more that just conformance checking.
17:43:51 <Joshue> MM: You claim that it does that is false.
17:44:01 <takkaria> you have to be very very careful that people don't start trying to consume HTML via a grammar rather than an implementation of the parsing algorithm
17:45:40 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
17:45:45 <MikeSmith> q?
17:45:45 <Joshue> MS: I conceed that, however when a decent schema is availalbe, validation against a schema etc there are more sophistcated tools. But the problem is that many see that passing the validator is percieved as meaning their content is fit for purpose. Schema checking alone does not always mean your doc can be processed the way you want it to be.
17:45:51 <Joshue> MM: Again this is false.
17:46:02 <Joshue> MS: I hear what you are saying. Other comments?
17:46:13 <Joshue> Cynthia: This is a good idea. It will be helpful.
17:48:27 <Joshue> MS: I think to have the Authoring guide as a way to make it clear to help them have their docs work on the web. It also needs to cover the DOM interface for scripting purposes. Real world use cases etc. This will  keep the spec minimal. remove informative stuff into the authoring guide etc
17:48:47 <Joshue> MM: Then call it something else.
17:48:50 <Joshue> MS: No
17:49:13 <Joshue> Cythia: It could have  subtitle?
17:49:37 <Joshue> MS: We have talked to developers and they want this.
17:49:56 <Joshue> +q
17:50:03 <Joshue> zakim, unmute me
17:50:03 <Zakim> Joshue should no longer be muted
17:50:24 <Joshue> MM; How about a browsers guide, devlopers guide etc?
17:50:50 <Joshue> MS: We need a normative guide for browsers..
17:50:54 <MikeSmith> s/MM;/MM: /
17:50:56 <Joshue> MM: You can't hve that.
17:51:29 <Joshue> MM: I am not understanding this.
17:51:59 <Joshue> DanC: You said this was a spec for how UAs behave.
17:52:14 <Joshue> MM: Strong objection
17:52:28 <Joshue> -q
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17:53:18 <MikeSmith> Joshue: some document that is specifically for authors, that cuts out a lot of the under-the-hood stuff is in principle a good idea
17:53:18 <Joshue> MM: I am going to make this an issue. 
17:53:24 <Joshue> zakim, mute me
17:53:24 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
17:53:38 <DanC> issue-61?
17:53:38 <trackbot> ISSUE-61 -- Conformance depends on author's intent -- RAISED
17:53:38 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/61
17:53:40 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-61 - HTML Issue Tracking Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:53:51 <DanC> maybe that's not so close to what Murray wanted on the issues list after all
17:54:15 <DanC> action-77?
17:54:15 <trackbot> ACTION-77 -- Michael(tm) Smith to lead HTML WG to response to TAG discussion and report back to TAG -- due 2008-10-30 -- OPEN
17:54:15 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/77
17:54:17 <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-77 - HTML Issue Tracking Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:54:19 <Joshue> MS: I did want to talk to the TAG list about this. Let them know we have followed up on the discussion. I have an item to do this. This should take place on the public HTML list.
17:54:35 <Joshue> MM: I don't follow
17:55:13 <Joshue> MS: The action item is complete.
17:55:22 <DanC> ISSUE-59?
17:55:23 <trackbot> ISSUE-59 -- Should the HTML WG produce a separate document that is a normative language reference and if so what are the requirements -- RAISED
17:55:23 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/59
17:55:24 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-59 - HTML Issue Tracking Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:55:27 <DanC> (maybe that's closer)
17:56:16 <MikeSmith> Topic: Any other business?
17:56:18 <Joshue> MS: Lets take the rest of the discussion to public HTML.
17:56:25 <Joshue> TOPIC: AOB
17:56:32 <Joshue> @headers?
17:56:33 <pimpbot> Joshue: Huh?
17:56:42 <Joshue> zakiim, unmute me
17:56:48 <DanC> (just briefly, who has the ball on headers?)
17:56:57 <Joshue> zakim, unmute me
17:56:57 <Zakim> Joshue should no longer be muted
17:57:04 <CGI707> CGI707 has joined #html-wg
17:57:21 <DanC> (the actions listed in http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/20 seem stale. )
17:57:22 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-20 - HTML Issue Tracking Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:57:35 <MikeSmith> Joshue: we are talking with PF about @headers and discussing how to move this along a little farther
17:58:07 <DanC> (hm... so it sounds like anybody/somebody/nobody has the ball.)
17:58:49 <MikeSmith> action: Joshue to prepare status report on @headers discussion by next week
17:58:49 <trackbot> Created ACTION-84 - Prepare status report on @headers discussion by next week [on Joshue O Connor - due 2008-11-20].
17:59:07 <Joshue> waves bye
17:59:25 <Zakim> -Joshue
17:59:45 <MikeSmith> Topic: Next meeting
18:00:00 <MikeSmith> we will have the telcon at the regular time next week, probably with ChrisWilson chairing
18:00:15 <MikeSmith> [adjourned]
18:00:19 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
18:00:22 <Zakim> -Adrian
18:00:38 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
18:00:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/13-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
18:00:55 <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
18:00:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see Mike, DanC, MurrayM
18:01:10 <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop me
18:01:10 <Zakim> sorry, MikeSmith, I do not see a party named 'MikeSmith'
18:01:15 <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop Mike
18:01:15 <Zakim> Mike is being disconnected
18:01:16 <Zakim> -Mike
18:01:26 <Zakim> -MurrayM
18:05:05 <deane> deane has left #html-wg
18:05:42 <arne> arne has left #html-wg
18:20:32 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
18:20:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/13-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
18:20:35 <pimpbot> Title: HTML Issue Tracking Teleconference -- 13 Nov 2008 (at www.w3.org)
18:21:09 <MikeSmith> s/;/:/g
18:21:11 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
18:21:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/13-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
18:21:12 <pimpbot> Title: HTML Issue Tracking Teleconference -- 13 Nov 2008 (at www.w3.org)
18:31:54 <adele> adele has joined #html-wg
18:35:01 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, DanC, in HTML_WG()12:00PM
18:35:02 <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
18:35:05 <Zakim> Attendees were Mike, DanC, Joshue, Cynthia_Shelly, +1.519.378.aaaa, MurrayM, Adrian, [Microsoft]
18:35:57 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, bye
18:35:57 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/13-html-wg-actions.rdf :
18:35:57 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Joshue to prepare status report on @headers discussion by next week [1]
18:35:57 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/13-html-wg-irc#T17-58-49