15:47:57 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
15:47:57 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-irc
15:48:05 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdfa
15:48:15 <msporny> zakim, this will be rdfa
15:48:15 <Zakim> ok, msporny; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes
15:48:25 <msporny> Scribe: Manu_Sporny
15:48:33 <msporny> ScribeNick: msporny
15:48:43 <msporny> Meeting: RDF in XHTML Task Force
15:48:53 <msporny> Chair: Ben_Adida
15:49:05 <msporny> rrsagent, make log public
15:49:10 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:49:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
15:50:00 <msporny> previous: http://www.w3.org/2008/10/30-rdfa-minutes.html
15:50:09 <msporny> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Nov/0003.html
15:50:13 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:50:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
15:50:24 <Ralph> Ralph has joined #rdfa
15:50:43 <msporny> Present: Manu_Sporny, Ralph_Swick
15:51:56 <msporny> Seemingly, this is the only ball I can handle right now, the rest of them are on the floor :)
15:51:58 <Ralph> Regrets: Steven
15:55:54 <Steeeven> Steeeven has joined #rdfa
15:59:05 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
15:59:12 <Zakim> +Ralph
16:00:40 <Zakim> +??P5
16:00:47 <msporny> zakim, I am ??P5
16:00:47 <Zakim> +msporny; got it
16:03:23 <benadida> benadida has joined #rdfa
16:03:35 <Zakim> +Ben_Adida
16:03:44 <msporny> Present+ Ben_Adida
16:05:31 <markbirbeck> just finishing another call...there in a moment. :)
16:08:47 <markbirbeck> zakim, code?
16:08:47 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
16:09:41 <Zakim> +markbirbeck
16:09:48 <msporny> Topic: Action Item Review
16:10:37 <msporny> Present+ Mark_Birbeck
16:11:29 <markbirbeck> My phone is clicking a lot this side. If others can hear it, let me know, and I'll dial back in.
16:11:51 <markbirbeck> thanks
16:12:27 <msporny> ACTION: Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once the NS URI is set up. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
16:12:31 <msporny> -- continues
16:12:37 <msporny> ACTION: Manu talk with Jamie McCarthy about an AskSlashdot piece [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action04]
16:12:40 <msporny> -- continues
16:13:30 <msporny> benadida: Had dinner with Steve from Digg.
16:13:51 <msporny> benadida: They're very interested in coordinating with other news sites to come up with a social news vocabulary.
16:14:48 <msporny> Manu: SIOC was published as W3C member submission.
16:15:00 <msporny> benadida: That would be good to get social news sites to adopt SIOC.
16:15:11 <Ralph> -> http://www.w3.org/Submission/2007/02/ SIOC Member Submission
16:15:37 <Ralph> -> http://www.w3.org/Submission/2007/SUBM-sioc-spec-20070612/ SOTD for SIOC
16:15:41 <msporny> Ralph: There's a sioc-dev that we could send comments into.
16:15:52 <Ralph> -> http://groups.google.com/group/sioc-dev/topics SIOC-dev list
16:16:05 <msporny> Ralph: That would be a good place to start the conversation.
16:16:17 <msporny> ACTION: Manu to create SVG Tiny draft comment and send to RDFa list for feedback before sending to SVG Tiny workgroup. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
16:16:19 <msporny> -- done
16:17:15 <Ralph> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Oct/0110.html "[LC] Official SVG Tiny Working Draft Comments from W3C RDF in XHTML Task Force" [Manu 2008-10-10]
16:17:25 <Ralph> s/10-10/10-09
16:17:30 <msporny> ACTION: Manu to create two TCs to test fragment identifiers dropped during URI resolution against [base] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
16:18:18 <msporny> -- continues
16:18:25 <msporny> ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases for Ivan. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
16:18:27 <msporny> -- continues
16:18:35 <msporny> ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
16:18:40 <msporny> -- continues
16:18:54 <msporny> ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
16:19:04 <msporny> -- continues
16:19:10 <msporny> ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
16:19:13 <msporny> -- continues
16:19:19 <msporny> ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
16:19:22 <msporny> -- continues
16:19:31 <msporny> ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
16:19:37 <msporny> -- continues
16:19:57 <msporny> Manu: Ralph, your action's solution might be SIOC.
16:20:26 <msporny> Ralph: Yes, there might be more, but SIOC might solve a decent bit of the problem.
16:21:12 <msporny> Topic: Ongoing maintenance of wiki/documentation
16:21:47 <msporny> benadida: Right now Mark has some actions to write FOAF examples.
16:21:54 <msporny> benadida: Any other immediate need for documentation?
16:22:24 <Ralph> Manu: the examples with digg and drupal ...
16:22:43 <Ralph> ... we might take some of the postings that have been sent to the mailing list and copy them to the wiki
16:23:45 <msporny> Manu: Seems that most of the interest has been in social news and CMS systems so far.
16:24:58 <msporny> benadida: There might be some interest with publications.
16:25:07 <msporny> benadida: Perhaps we can edit the wiki down.
16:26:46 <benadida> ACTION: Ben to add public-rdfa examples to wiki and think of slightly improved top-level organization
16:27:00 <Ralph> -> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/ SemWeb Home Page
16:27:46 <msporny> benadida: Could we add "RDFa News and Updates", and "RDFa Wiki" under the RDFa section.
16:27:46 <Ralph> what path do we want folk to follow to get to http://rdfa.info/ ?
16:27:56 <msporny> benadida: We should also have the primer in there somewhere.
16:29:04 <msporny> benadida: Adding those links should be good.
16:30:01 <Ralph> Manu: for editing utilities, I cited fuzzbot
16:30:16 <Ralph> ... would be nice to have a bigger collection of utilities
16:30:33 <Ralph> -> http://www.commonsdesign.org/fuzzbot/ Fuzzbot
16:30:47 <Ralph> Manu: especially a set of tools that supports a full publishing cycle
16:30:59 <Ralph> Ben: I use the bookmarklets for this.  What more is needed?
16:31:15 <Ralph> Manu: if we believe folks should use the bookmarklets more to do editing, we should publicize this
16:31:20 <msporny> s/www.commonsdesign.org/rdfa.digitalbazaar.com/g
16:31:33 <Ralph> [apologies, Manu]
16:32:27 <benadida> ACTION: Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa" with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet.
16:32:50 <Ralph> -> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/8736 Fuzzbot 0.8.3
16:34:01 <Ralph> Manu: we could make a tools request list
16:34:28 <Ralph> ... especially tools that work across all platforms
16:35:04 <Ralph> -> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/rdfa-bookmarklet/ bookmarklets?
16:35:32 <Ralph> Ben: that's out of date; it cites -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/impl/js/
16:35:59 <msporny> benadida: That's the latest.
16:36:24 <Ralph> -> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/ old, out-of-date TF page
16:36:26 <msporny> Ralph: We've got a number of stale pages around.
16:36:54 <msporny> benadida: I should fix that page.
16:36:57 <benadida> ACTION: Ben to fix old task force page to point to new TF page.
16:37:30 <Ralph> s/fix/add forward pointer to
16:37:44 <msporny> benadida: It would be good to clean that.
16:38:10 <msporny> benadida: We might want to have a new test case.
16:38:36 <msporny> benadida: Where the empty string is null.
16:38:54 <msporny> Manu: Do you have a test case in mind for that?
16:39:07 <benadida> <a href="foo.html"><span about="" property="dc:creator">Ben</span></a>
16:39:13 <msporny> benadida: It's an issue in Javascript, or any language where the empty string could be construed as NULL.
16:39:36 <Ralph> [Ben is noting a coding style trap in javascript]
16:39:36 <msporny> benadida: you would expect the previous example to set the creator of the current page.
16:40:22 <msporny> benadida: It was only in the case of emtpy @about where the chaining didn't happen correctly.
16:40:30 <benadida> ACTION: Manu to add test case for empty @about inside a chain
16:40:45 <Ralph> i.e. an empty attribute value is not the same as an absent attribute
16:40:52 <msporny> Topic: Recent and Upcoming Talks
16:41:08 <Ralph> Manu: I'm speaking at Web Directions North in January
16:41:18 <Ralph> ... giving a 4-hour workshop on RDFa
16:41:35 <Steeeven> I spoke at the TPAC
16:41:39 <Steeeven> last talk of the dayy
16:41:39 <Ralph> -> http://north.webdirections.org/ web directions north
16:42:41 <markbirbeck> http://www.idealliance.org/xml2008/schedule-details.asp#gov8
16:42:45 <msporny> markbirbeck: I submitted a talk on RDFa, I'm on a panel on Semantic Web and Goverment
16:42:49 <Ralph> -> http://www.w3.org/2008/Talks/10-22-steven-website/ "Why you should have a Web Site" [Steven, W3C Technical Plenary talk 2008-10-22]
16:43:20 <msporny> markbirbeck: It's normally called XML 2007, but now it's XML in Practice.
16:43:27 <msporny> markbirbeck: I did an RDFa talk there last year.
16:44:13 <msporny> benadida: I've been invited to talk at the Interlab Conference at a Semantic Web Panel
16:44:18 <markbirbeck> I should say that last year I did a *lightning* talk on RDFa...so this is a step up. :)
16:44:36 <msporny> benadida: it's a panel on how the semantic web is getting real.
16:44:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph
16:45:04 <msporny> benadida: Important that if you have slides you're willing to share. Under Creative Commons for example.
16:45:26 <msporny> benadida: If you're looking for the longer presentations, they're on my website.
16:45:45 <markbirbeck> http://www.online-information.co.uk/online08/conference_presentation_2008.html?presentation_id=357
16:46:11 <msporny> markbirbeck: I've been asked to chair a session.
16:46:39 <msporny> markbirbeck: I've been asked to chair a panel - it's good for RDFa because they think it'll be a major part of the discussion.
16:49:08 <Ralph> -> http://www.w3.org/2008/Talks/1026-ISCW-RDFa/ "RDFa - Bridging the Web of Documents and the Web of Data" [ISWC tutorial by Michael, Ivan, Ben]
16:49:55 <msporny> Topic: Potential Improvements to RDFa
16:50:08 <msporny> benadida: I was speaking primarily to the @prefix attribute.
16:50:30 <benadida> --> http://rdfa.info/wiki/RDFainHTML4
16:50:35 <msporny> benadida: Specifically, what Shane has written on the Wiki.
16:51:20 <Ralph> scribenick: ralph
16:51:26 <msporny> Manu: prefix="ns=http://blah.com/"
16:51:28 <Ralph> Manu: we've talked about several cases
16:51:35 <Ralph> s/cases/possibilities
16:51:42 <Ralph> ... a space-separated list of items
16:51:47 <msporny> Manu: prefix="=http://example.org/vocab"
16:51:48 <Ralph> ... a default namespace
16:51:55 <msporny> Manu: prefix="http://example.org/vocab"
16:52:01 <Ralph> ... the case of eliding the '='
16:52:11 <msporny> Manu: prefix="ex=http://example.org/vocab"
16:52:18 <Ralph> ... last conversation with Shane the idea was to have @prefix support all of these cases
16:52:51 <Ralph> ... @prefix="a=b" matches the current xmlns case
16:52:53 <msporny> Manu: prefix="http://myvocab.org/vocab"
16:53:03 <Ralph> ... question of how to denote things we want the parser to fetch
16:53:30 <Ralph> ... objective is to have the parser load vocabulary-specific triples [from a URI]
16:53:38 <Ralph> ... similar to @profile
16:53:56 <Ralph> ... we were unsure whether GRDDL would be OK with reusing @profile elsewhere
16:54:10 <Ralph> Ben: GRDDL doesn't own @profile
16:54:34 <Ralph> ... the 3 cases Manu cites are noted in http://rdfa.info/wiki/RDFainHTML4
16:54:40 <benadida> third case prefix="=http://creativecommons.org/ns#"
16:54:58 <Ralph> Ben: I'm not wild about that last syntax
16:55:15 <Ralph> ... ="= just looks like mal-formed syntax to me
16:55:32 <Ralph> Mark: and using this functionality for loading special vocabularies feels wrong to me
16:55:47 <Ralph> ... I don't think we should overload @prefix; @profile is for this purpose
16:56:16 <Ralph> ... I'm also not wild about the default namespace syntax
16:56:22 <Ralph> ... but I'm not sure we need a default namespace
16:56:43 <Ralph> ... I've been working on the token idea and the more I do the more it has evolved
16:57:10 <Ralph> ... the idea of having a vocabulary with a list of terms is not suited to all situations; sometimes you just want a list of tokens
16:57:23 <Ralph> ... I'm no longer convinced we should encourage unprefixed CURIEs
16:57:47 <Ralph> Ben: so 'foo' and 'bar' might map to terms from different vocabularies, with completely different URIs?
16:57:48 <Ralph> Mark: yes
16:58:35 <Ralph> ... this use of [unprefixed] tokens is the big innovation in microformats
16:58:49 <Ralph> ... I think we should embrace this and provide the underpinning that makes it possible
16:59:06 <Ralph> ... N3 allows a "predicate" of 'a' which maps to rdf:type
16:59:43 <Ralph> Ralph: but N3 did not do this in an extensible way; 'a' is a hard-wired keyword
16:59:50 <Ralph> Mark: yes, but we can fit that into a new mindset
17:00:10 <Ralph> ... we could say that 'a' is a CURIE and we provide a mapping to its URI
17:00:26 <Ralph> ... and we can also allow 'license' to map to a different URI
17:00:33 <Ralph> ... where 'a' and 'license' co-exist nicely
17:00:58 <Ralph> ... if we keep @prefix simple we'll avoid lots of arguments
17:01:11 <Ralph> Ben: I believe we agree that @prefix plays the same role as @xmlns
17:02:31 <msporny> Ralph: I spoke with Shane a bit ago and it's possible that @prefix does not directly map to xmlns.
17:02:44 <msporny> Ralph: Shane thought that there might be some issues with that.
17:02:57 <msporny> benadida: The only thing where it might be an issue is declaring something in HEAD
17:03:40 <Ralph> s/a bit/a while
17:04:27 <msporny> benadida: We want to make markup simpler - so when we compare Microformats to RDFa, people don't see that RDFa is very complicated.
17:04:40 <Ralph> i/Ralph: I spoke/scribenick: msporny
17:04:47 <msporny> benadida: There are several ways you can do that - reserved words, token-based approach.
17:04:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph
17:05:14 <msporny> benadida: I think we're going to have to pick one.
17:05:37 <msporny> benadida: if we pick more than one, it might make things more difficult.
17:06:18 <Ralph> [I very much like the idea that the documents that define lists of tokens use RDFa to define those lists]
17:06:26 <msporny> markbirbeck: I don't think they're mutually exclusive.
17:06:34 <msporny> benadida: We need to continue this discussion.
17:06:35 <Steeeven> +1 to ralph
17:07:49 <msporny> benadida: We should focus on documentation and simplified RDFa using @prefix/@profile.
17:08:16 <Ralph> Ben: we should prototype in our implementations before proposing any formal change
17:09:05 <Ralph> Mark: my solution only requires RDFa to add @profile and most of the work is pushed into the CURIE spec
17:09:42 <Ralph> ... the token language in the RDFa spec intentionally leaves room for this
17:10:07 <Ralph> Ben: I wouldn't want to ask RDFa parsers to have to look to CURIE spec for lots of new rules
17:10:42 <Ralph> ... but I like the look of Mark's syntax
17:11:10 <Ralph> ... I especially like not having to load everything into @prefix
17:15:51 <Ralph> next meeting: 20 November
17:16:17 <Zakim> -Ralph
17:16:18 <Zakim> -msporny
17:16:19 <Zakim> -markbirbeck
17:16:20 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
17:16:21 <Zakim> Attendees were Ralph, msporny, Ben_Adida, markbirbeck
17:16:25 <Steeeven> Steeeven has left #rdfa
17:16:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph
17:16:49 <Ralph> zakim, bye
17:16:49 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdfa
17:16:55 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye
17:16:55 <RRSAgent> I see 14 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-actions.rdf :
17:16:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once the NS URI is set up. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03] [1]
17:16:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-irc#T16-12-27
17:16:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu talk with Jamie McCarthy about an AskSlashdot piece [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action04] [2]
17:16:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-irc#T16-12-37
17:16:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to create SVG Tiny draft comment and send to RDFa list for feedback before sending to SVG Tiny workgroup. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] [3]
17:16:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-irc#T16-16-17
17:16:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to create two TCs to test fragment identifiers dropped during URI resolution against [base] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action13] [4]
17:16:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-irc#T16-17-30
17:16:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases for Ivan. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09] [5]
17:16:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-irc#T16-18-25
17:16:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] [6]
17:16:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-irc#T16-18-35
17:16:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] [7]
17:16:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-irc#T16-18-54
17:16:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13] [8]
17:16:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-irc#T16-19-10
17:16:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14] [9]
17:16:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-irc#T16-19-19
17:16:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15] [10]
17:16:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-irc#T16-19-31
17:16:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to add public-rdfa examples to wiki and think of slightly improved top-level organization [11]
17:16:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-irc#T16-26-46
17:16:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa" with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [12]
17:16:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-irc#T16-32-27
17:16:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to fix old task force page to point to new TF page. [13]
17:16:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-irc#T16-36-57
17:16:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to add test case for empty @about inside a chain [14]
17:16:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-irc#T16-40-30