IRC log of html-wg on 2008-09-04
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 15:58:07 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #html-wg
- 15:58:07 [RRSAgent]
- logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/09/04-html-wg-irc
- 15:58:09 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, make logs public
- 15:58:09 [Zakim]
- Zakim has joined #html-wg
- 15:58:11 [trackbot]
- Zakim, this will be HTML
- 15:58:11 [Zakim]
- ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()12:00PM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
- 15:58:12 [trackbot]
- Meeting: HTML Issue Tracking Teleconference
- 15:58:12 [trackbot]
- Date: 04 September 2008
- 15:59:14 [Zakim]
- HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
- 15:59:21 [Zakim]
- + +2
- 15:59:29 [Joshue]
- zakim, +2 is Joshue
- 15:59:29 [Zakim]
- +Joshue; got it
- 15:59:30 [MikeSmith]
- Zakim, call Mike-Mobile
- 15:59:30 [Zakim]
- ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
- 15:59:31 [Zakim]
- +Mike
- 15:59:40 [Zakim]
- +Laura
- 16:00:05 [MikeSmith]
- Zakim, who's on the phone?
- 16:00:05 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Joshue, Mike, Laura
- 16:00:58 [MikeSmith]
- Agenda: http://www.w3.org/mid/20080903224031.GA8044@toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp
- 16:01:33 [Zakim]
- + +1.425.467.aabb
- 16:01:34 [Zakim]
- +Julian
- 16:01:48 [MikeSmith]
- Zakim, who's on the phone?
- 16:01:48 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Joshue, Mike, Laura, +1.425.467.aabb, Julian
- 16:01:51 [smedero]
- Zakim, aabb is me
- 16:01:51 [Zakim]
- +smedero; got it
- 16:02:01 [Zakim]
- +??P16
- 16:02:21 [hsivonen]
- Zakim, P16 is me
- 16:02:21 [Zakim]
- sorry, hsivonen, I do not recognize a party named 'P16'
- 16:02:48 [MikeSmith]
- Zakim, ??P16 is hsivonen
- 16:02:48 [Zakim]
- +hsivonen; got it
- 16:02:59 [Zakim]
- +DanC
- 16:03:13 [smedero]
- smedero has left #html-wg
- 16:03:28 [smedero]
- smedero has joined #html-wg
- 16:04:02 [Joshue]
- zakim, mute me
- 16:04:02 [Zakim]
- Joshue should now be muted
- 16:04:23 [anne]
- Zakim, passcode?
- 16:04:23 [Zakim]
- the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), anne
- 16:04:32 [Zakim]
- +??P22
- 16:04:44 [anne]
- Zakim, ??P22 is me
- 16:04:47 [Zakim]
- +anne; got it
- 16:04:57 [anne]
- Zakim, who is on the phone?
- 16:04:57 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Joshue (muted), Mike, Laura, smedero, Julian, hsivonen, DanC, anne
- 16:05:23 [MikeSmith]
- Zakim, pick a scribe
- 16:05:23 [Zakim]
- Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Mike
- 16:05:32 [MikeSmith]
- scribe: anne
- 16:05:39 [MikeSmith]
- scribenick: anne
- 16:06:00 [MikeSmith]
- Topic: Convene and review the agenda
- 16:06:11 [MikeSmith]
- issue-20?
- 16:06:11 [trackbot]
- ISSUE-20 -- Improvements to the table-headers algorithm in the HTML 5 spec -- OPEN
- 16:06:11 [trackbot]
- http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/20
- 16:06:13 [anne]
- MS: ISSUE-20 is on the agenda
- 16:06:28 [MikeSmith]
- issue-54?
- 16:06:28 [trackbot]
- ISSUE-54 -- difficulties generating HTML5 from XSLT -- OPEN
- 16:06:28 [trackbot]
- http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/54
- 16:06:37 [anne]
- MS: ISSUE-54 is also on the agenda
- 16:06:44 [MikeSmith]
- issue-55?
- 16:06:45 [trackbot]
- ISSUE-55 -- head/@profile missing, but used in other specifications/formats -- RAISED
- 16:06:45 [trackbot]
- http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/55
- 16:06:51 [anne]
- MS: and ISSUE-55
- 16:07:38 [anne]
- MS: if we get through those we'll take a look at the tracker. Julian mentioned discussing the new void elements. Lets possibly add that
- 16:07:55 [anne]
- MS: Chris Wilson is not here so we skip ISSUE-20 and go straight to ISSUE-54
- 16:08:01 [MikeSmith]
- Topic: Issue 54
- 16:08:04 [anne]
- MS: regarding XSLT
- 16:08:17 [Julian]
- issue-54?
- 16:08:17 [trackbot]
- ISSUE-54 -- difficulties generating HTML5 from XSLT -- OPEN
- 16:08:17 [trackbot]
- http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/54
- 16:08:22 [DanC]
- Topic: ISSUE-54 html5-from-xslt
- 16:08:49 [anne]
- MS: what change should be made to the restrictions on the DOCTYPE in HTML5 to make it possible for existing XSLT engines to output conforming HTML5
- 16:10:03 [anne]
- MS: XSLT engines can't output <!DOCTYPE html>, but it is a conforming XML DOCTYPE.
- 16:10:46 [anne]
- MS: the proposal, is <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC ""> or <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "some value">
- 16:11:13 [anne]
- MS: that would help with the XML case but is not valid [scribe: not sure if that was what said]
- 16:11:46 [anne]
- MS: I'm not sure the current text in the spec, <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "XSLT-compat"> makes sense, as it's not valid XML and might confuse people
- 16:11:57 [MikeSmith]
- q?
- 16:12:02 [DanC]
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- 16:12:04 [cshelly]
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- 16:12:44 [anne]
- MS: Any feedback on the current state of things?
- 16:12:44 [cshelly]
- having phone trouble, will lurk here
- 16:13:07 [anne]
- MS: Hixie added the "XSLT-compat" case to the spec, solely intended for XSLT tools
- 16:13:17 [Zakim]
- -Mike
- 16:13:24 [anne]
- MS: not clear whether that's the best solution and if that helps people long term
- 16:13:29 [MikeSmith]
- Zakim, call Mike-Mobile
- 16:13:29 [Zakim]
- ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
- 16:13:31 [Zakim]
- +Mike
- 16:14:24 [anne]
- MS: need to decide whether the change is ideal or whether we should go back to what we had before, just have <!doctype html>
- 16:14:24 [Julian]
- q+
- 16:14:29 [MikeSmith]
- ack Julian
- 16:14:36 [Zakim]
- +Cynthia_Shelly
- 16:14:46 [anne]
- JR: another option is to allow <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC ""> or <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC ''>
- 16:14:51 [anne]
- MS: that is another option certainly
- 16:15:07 [anne]
- MS: the reason Hixie didn't like that was that it looked "reasonable"
- 16:15:17 [anne]
- MS: he thinks it should look "unreasonable"
- 16:15:48 [anne]
- JR: whether it should look "unreasonable" has no consensus
- 16:16:00 [hsivonen]
- null and "" are distinct
- 16:16:11 [anne]
- JR: I look at it as having two ways to indicate there is no doctype
- 16:17:34 [anne]
- MS: Hixie thinks having that gives confusion; changing the meaning of the public ID might not be good
- 16:17:43 [Zakim]
- -Cynthia_Shelly
- 16:18:02 [anne]
- MS: it makes DOCTYPEs less purposeful [scribe: I hope I got that correct]
- 16:18:21 [Zakim]
- +Cynthia_Shelly
- 16:18:30 [anne]
- JR: I don't really care whether we make it a real public ID in the historical way; I would expect there to be pushback
- 16:18:43 [DanC]
- (email seems to be working for this issue... though perhaps I'm not reading clearly enough to see communication breakdowns.)
- 16:18:44 [anne]
- JR: I'm open to make it simpler
- 16:18:57 [hsivonen]
- q+
- 16:19:05 [anne]
- JR: I think XSLT-compat is misleading and will also cause confusing
- 16:19:17 [MikeSmith]
- ack hsivonen
- 16:19:18 [anne]
- MS: none of us is going to say things not said on e-mail
- 16:19:38 [anne]
- HS: this is damned if you do, damned if you don't situation
- 16:19:56 [anne]
- MS: adding a DOCTYPE makes things confusing, not adding one makes XSLT people annoyed
- 16:20:02 [anne]
- s/MS:/HS:/
- 16:20:33 [anne]
- HS: I'm happy to flip-flop on the empty string and use XSLT-compat to make it clear it's not for most people
- 16:21:07 [anne]
- MS: we'd only want people to use the long form if that's all their tool can
- 16:21:14 [hsivonen]
- (not really "happy")
- 16:21:18 [anne]
- DC: what do you mean with "we"?
- 16:21:30 [takkaria]
- I think there's a really big problem with allowing 'public ""' in the doctype; it interacts badly with quirks mode. if xslt people want to write standards-mode content, they're better off fixing the output mode than outputting quirky content
- 16:21:46 [anne]
- MS: I think most people want the spec to be simple and not provide options unless necessary
- 16:21:51 [Julian]
- q+
- 16:21:57 [MikeSmith]
- ack Julian
- 16:21:57 [hsivonen]
- takkaria, which browser?
- 16:21:58 [anne]
- MS: this might be a case where it is not necessary to add complication
- 16:22:18 [hsivonen]
- q+
- 16:22:19 [DanC]
- takkaria, is the interaction with quirks mode in email? I missed that. That seems more significant than aesthetic arguments.
- 16:22:22 [MikeSmith]
- takkaria: if you have data for that, please mail it to the list
- 16:22:25 [DanC]
- q+
- 16:22:28 [MikeSmith]
- ack hsivonen
- 16:22:38 [anne]
- JR: If the goal is to have one notation for the DOCTYPE and another goal is to allow XSLT to generate HTML5 we could pick the longer
- 16:22:50 [MikeSmith]
- q?
- 16:22:58 [MikeSmith]
- ack DanC
- 16:23:02 [anne]
- HS: I don't think we should make it longer just for XSLT
- 16:23:14 [takkaria]
- (I thought it had already been mentioned on the list; has it not?)
- 16:23:21 [anne]
- (Also, some optional features of XSLT do allow <!doctype html>.)
- 16:23:48 [DanC]
- <takkaria> I think there's a really big problem with allowing 'public ""' in the doctype; it interacts badly with quirks mode. if xslt people want to write standards-mode content, they're better off fixing the output mode than outputting quirky content
- 16:23:51 [hsivonen]
- takkaria, my testing showed it was OK with modes
- 16:24:58 [anne]
- MS: I want to close this topic for now as there's no new information and not close to a resolution
- 16:25:13 [anne]
- issue-55?
- 16:25:13 [trackbot]
- ISSUE-55 -- head/@profile missing, but used in other specifications/formats -- RAISED
- 16:25:13 [trackbot]
- http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/55
- 16:25:16 [MikeSmith]
- Topic: Issue 55 (the profile attribute)
- 16:25:18 [anne]
- Topic: <head profile>
- 16:25:44 [DanC]
- editor's rationale from 6 May: http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2008-May/014692.html
- 16:25:58 [anne]
- MS: <head profile> is not part of HTML5 and there hasn't been much new e-mail on this topic
- 16:26:08 [anne]
- MS: some new data on the case of making it conformant
- 16:26:16 [DanC]
- dissenting argument from 9 Jul 2007: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jul/0571.html
- 16:26:21 [anne]
- (scribe hasn't seen data that suggests it was used in a conforming way)
- 16:26:59 [anne]
- MS: Some popular WordPress themes or plugins are generating <head profile>
- 16:27:21 [anne]
- [Can't be removed by a WordPress upgrade.]
- 16:27:58 [anne]
- MS: It seems there's not much support for re-adding profile to the HTML vocabulary
- 16:28:03 [MikeSmith]
- q?
- 16:28:15 [Julian]
- +1 to DanC
- 16:28:20 [anne]
- DC: I think the cost is small and the benefit is to be seen; I said this before
- 16:28:41 [anne]
- DC: I'm waiting for a survey so I can formally object and we can move on
- 16:28:58 [anne]
- MS: I'll put the question to the group
- 16:29:42 [Julian]
- q+
- 16:29:52 [MikeSmith]
- ack Julian
- 16:29:57 [anne]
- MS: [explains various options for the survey]
- 16:30:11 [Julian]
- q+
- 16:30:18 [anne]
- DC: I think it's up for the chairs to determine whether the editor made all the considerations
- 16:30:22 [MikeSmith]
- ack Julian
- 16:30:27 [anne]
- DC: up to the chairs to say that a discussion is done
- 16:30:49 [anne]
- JR: I'd don't like to judge the editor, but the technical issue itself
- 16:31:23 [anne]
- MS: I think it's useful for people in the group to say whether or not they trust the editor
- 16:32:19 [anne]
- MS: it's not clear-cut who's right and we have to make some kind of decisions
- 16:32:27 [hsivonen]
- q+
- 16:32:29 [DanC]
- (I think the question should just be "shall HTML 5 have no profile attribute on the head element?")
- 16:32:51 [anne]
- MS: in most WGs it's the chairs, but for better or worse a lot of the decisions of things in the spec now have been made
- 16:33:13 [DanC]
- (no reason to continue/condone the "or worse" parts of the process)
- 16:33:25 [anne]
- JR: I don't think it's a good idea to conflate both issues as it might effect the outcome
- 16:34:00 [anne]
- MS: That's the point, we want to know why people say something
- 16:34:17 [anne]
- DC: I don't think that's possible
- 16:34:28 [anne]
- DC: if they don't give rationale, don't consider them
- 16:34:35 [deane]
- deane has joined #html-wg
- 16:34:41 [anne]
- MS: I will talk about this with Chris and Dan as this is a process issue
- 16:35:18 [hsivonen]
- I'm in q
- 16:35:33 [DanC]
- ack hsivonen
- 16:35:40 [MikeSmith^]
- MikeSmith^ has joined #html-wg
- 16:36:17 [anne]
- HS: I'd prefer to defer the question on profile until after we've considered a way to have a category of attributes not to recommend to authors of new documents but not forbid
- 16:36:37 [Julian]
- q+
- 16:36:41 [MikeSmith^]
- q?
- 16:36:58 [anne]
- HS: allowing it in the validator is easy, but there's a complexity cost for authors. Microformats authors might care for it, but then consumers don't, etc.
- 16:37:53 [anne]
- MS: How do long do you think the discussion for the other attributes will take?
- 16:38:20 [anne]
- HS: I've no idea whether there's a satisfactory solution to that problem. (Category of conforming non-endorsed attributes.)
- 16:38:26 [DanC]
- (I suppose it's OK with me to move the profile attribute back to "raised" while the discussion of not-very-nice attributes; the recent data HS collected certainly makes me wonder about various things.)
- 16:38:42 [Julian]
- q-
- 16:38:45 [DanC]
- (I'm also OK to have the issue closed for now and re-open it if new data comes up)
- 16:38:50 [MikeSmith^]
- q?
- 16:38:59 [adele]
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- 16:39:09 [Julian]
- (it would be good if the Microformats community would come up with an answer whether or not to @profile)
- 16:39:17 [anne]
- MS: I would like a decision
- 16:39:56 [MikeSmith^]
- q?
- 16:40:05 [anne]
- MS: anything else on profile? move on?
- 16:40:22 [DanC]
- (I recently checked in #microformats and didn't find much support for @profile; cf http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/08/the_details_of_data_in_documen.html )
- 16:40:33 [anne]
- MS: we could go to the tracker agenda but I don't see anything urgent
- 16:40:43 [anne]
- MS: we could talk about void elements
- 16:40:46 [anne]
- Topic: new void elements
- 16:41:06 [Julian]
- q+
- 16:41:08 [anne]
- (<script></script> is an empty element, which would be a confusing term to use therefore)
- 16:41:10 [MikeSmith^]
- ack Julian
- 16:41:18 [anne]
- Zakim, who makes noise?
- 16:41:18 [Zakim]
- I don't understand your question, anne.
- 16:41:40 [hsivonen]
- Julian, it would be nice if microformats had a specced processing model and conformance reqs
- 16:42:08 [smedero]
- Zakim, mute me
- 16:42:08 [Zakim]
- smedero should now be muted
- 16:42:20 [anne]
- JR: Even if we did the DOCTYPE thing for XSLT, they still wouldn't do the new elements; they also wouldn't do SVG and MathML
- 16:42:23 [DanC]
- q+
- 16:42:45 [DanC]
- q+ to ask for pointers to earlier discussion of void elements
- 16:43:14 [anne]
- JR: Users of HTML have no information on whether an element is a void element.
- 16:43:32 [Zakim]
- -smedero
- 16:43:39 [hsivonen]
- q+
- 16:43:51 [anne]
- JR: Having a fixed set of void elements from HTML4 was nice, but now all those sets over the Web need to be updated. Would like to have a story that also works for HTML5+n
- 16:43:52 [MikeSmith^]
- ack DanC
- 16:43:52 [Zakim]
- DanC, you wanted to ask for pointers to earlier discussion of void elements
- 16:44:07 [anne]
- DC: I find it hard to believe that since 2004 this hasn't already come up
- 16:44:13 [Zakim]
- +Shawn_Medero
- 16:44:47 [MikeSmith^]
- anne: I don't have pointers, but was seen as a minor issue by browsers at least
- 16:45:10 [MikeSmith^]
- q?
- 16:45:13 [anne]
- AvK: and also for authors, in terms of backwards compatibility
- 16:45:34 [MikeSmith^]
- ack hsivonen
- 16:46:07 [anne]
- HS: I had considered this issue before but I didn't see it as a big deal. I would write a serializer with a liberal license that other people then can use.
- 16:46:19 [anne]
- HS: Just make enough HTML libraries and problem solved.
- 16:46:55 [Julian]
- q+
- 16:47:16 [anne]
- HS: I thought everyone would bring their own serializer. I can see a problem here, but I don't think it's as big as JR makes it seem.
- 16:47:28 [dbaron]
- dbaron has joined #html-wg
- 16:47:31 [anne]
- HS: These void elements also don't come up all the time. There's been a ten year break or so...
- 16:47:47 [MikeSmith^]
- q+ to mention cost of adding support for new void elements to libraries and other tools
- 16:48:22 [anne]
- HS: I can see how the implied paragraph end tag and void elements is in theory bad, but I'm not sure if it's really a problem in practice
- 16:48:31 [MikeSmith^]
- ack Julian
- 16:49:24 [anne]
- JR: I assume HSs' serializer also has a hardwired set of elements. Whatever seralizer you take it will generate a start and end tag and user agents will have to deal with it.
- 16:49:43 [anne]
- JR: I'm totally sure that eg <eventsource></eventsource> will turn up in the real Web
- 16:50:10 [anne]
- DC: The spec already deals with every input stream, right?
- 16:50:17 [DanC]
- (I think whether it's void or not is a pretty small part of the design of new elements)
- 16:50:30 [anne]
- HS: the spec covers parsing yes, but eg. <command></command> is non-conforming for text/html
- 16:51:01 [MikeSmith^]
- ack MikeSmith^
- 16:51:01 [Zakim]
- MikeSmith^, you wanted to mention cost of adding support for new void elements to libraries and other tools
- 16:51:33 [anne]
- JR: If there's no technical problem it's just believe
- 16:51:58 [hsivonen]
- q+
- 16:52:04 [Laura]
- Steve and Gez have conficting meetings. Sends regrets.
- 16:52:31 [Laura]
- regrets+ SteveF
- 16:52:38 [Laura]
- regrets+ GezLemon
- 16:53:01 [anne]
- AvK: it gives confusion with <br>, where <br></br> does different things, authors will get confused because they think they can put stuff inside, updating a fixed list is small
- 16:53:24 [anne]
- JR: the problem is to deploy those libraries
- 16:54:09 [MikeSmith^]
- ack hsivonen
- 16:54:17 [anne]
- MS: those elements are not supported currently, so it will take some time anyway
- 16:54:45 [anne]
- HS: two void elements XSLT doesn't deal with are already widely deployed, <embed> and to lesser extent <source>
- 16:55:18 [anne]
- HS: the question is whether we should introduce new void elements in HTML5
- 16:55:37 [anne]
- HS: should we have <command>command-type</command> and <eventsource></eventsource> instead?
- 16:55:58 [deane]
- anne: I think allowing <command></command> and <eventsource></eventsource> would be a bad move
- 16:56:07 [anne]
- HS: so the question is whether the HTML5 spec is the last spec to introduce new void elements (<source> and <embed>), or will we have new elements?
- 16:56:17 [anne]
- deane, I'm the scribe
- 16:56:18 [Julian]
- +1 to henri
- 16:56:37 [MikeSmith^]
- q?
- 16:57:35 [hsivonen]
- <p>foo<aside> will hurt authors more likely
- 16:57:36 [anne]
- It would be interesting to see in a few years whether <source> has been a problem.
- 16:57:51 [anne]
- Then we can decide for HTML6 whether it was worth it
- 16:58:25 [anne]
- MS: [scribe missed a lot]
- 16:58:39 [anne]
- ... So we will have a meeting next week, same time. Chris Wilson chairing.
- 16:58:52 [anne]
- ... If anybody would like to volunteer to scribe for that meeting, speak up
- 16:58:59 [anne]
- DC: I'm probably available
- 16:59:20 [anne]
- MS: CW will be sending a detailed agenda
- 16:59:28 [anne]
- MS: adjourn
- 16:59:32 [Joshue]
- Joshue has left #html-wg
- 16:59:35 [Zakim]
- -hsivonen
- 16:59:36 [Zakim]
- -Cynthia_Shelly
- 16:59:38 [Zakim]
- -Shawn_Medero
- 16:59:48 [Zakim]
- -Joshue
- 17:00:00 [anne]
- RRSAgent, make minutes
- 17:00:00 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/04-html-wg-minutes.html anne
- 17:00:12 [anne]
- RRSAgent, make logs public
- 17:01:01 [Zakim]
- -Laura
- 17:01:04 [smedero]
- I updated ISSUE-54 (html5-from-xslt) with a pointer to data and limited test concerning <!doctype html public ""> and quirks mode... hopefully someone can push those tests a little further if need be.
- 17:01:23 [Zakim]
- -anne
- 17:01:27 [Zakim]
- -Mike
- 17:01:30 [Zakim]
- -Julian
- 17:01:31 [smedero]
- (notes at the bottom, after all the email links...)
- 17:01:42 [MikeSmith^]
- smedero: cool -- thanks
- 17:28:01 [smedero]
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- 17:30:59 [deane]
- deane has left #html-wg
- 17:35:00 [Zakim]
- disconnecting the lone participant, DanC, in HTML_WG()12:00PM
- 17:35:02 [Zakim]
- HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
- 17:35:04 [Zakim]
- Attendees were Joshue, Mike, Laura, +1.425.467.aabb, Julian, smedero, hsivonen, DanC, anne, Cynthia_Shelly, Shawn_Medero
- 17:47:41 [anne]
- Zakim, bye
- 17:47:41 [Zakim]
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