IRC log of backplane on 2008-08-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:53:26 [RRSAgent]

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-backplane-irc

14:53:36 [Zakim]

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14:53:42 [oedipus]

rrsagent, set logs world-visible

14:53:56 [oedipus]

meeting: RWAB XG Weekly Teleconference

14:54:05 [oedipus]

chair: Charlie_W

14:55:34 [oedipus]

agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-app-backplane/2008Aug/0015.html

14:55:46 [oedipus]

scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita

14:55:51 [oedipus]

ScribeNick: oedipus

14:56:20 [Charlie]

not so far, no

14:56:45 [jackjansen]

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14:57:06 [oedipus]

http://wiki.codetalks.org/wiki/index.php/How_to_create_accessible_JavaScript_widgets

14:57:45 [Charlie]

zakim, who is here?

14:57:45 [Zakim]

sorry, Charlie, I don't know what conference this is

14:57:46 [Zakim]

On IRC I see jackjansen, Zakim, RRSAgent, Charlie, oedipus

14:57:51 [Charlie]

zakim, this will be RWAB

14:57:51 [Zakim]

ok, Charlie, I see INC_RWAB()11:00AM already started

14:58:05 [Charlie]

zakim, who is here?

14:58:05 [Zakim]

On the phone I see [IBM]

14:58:06 [Zakim]

On IRC I see jackjansen, Zakim, RRSAgent, Charlie, oedipus

14:58:07 [Zakim]

+Gregory_Rosmaita

14:58:10 [Charlie]

zakim, [IBM] is Charlie

14:58:10 [Zakim]

+Charlie; got it

14:58:25 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:58:25 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-backplane-minutes.html oedipus

14:59:24 [oedipus]

zakim, who is here?

14:59:25 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Charlie, Gregory_Rosmaita

14:59:26 [Zakim]

On IRC I see jackjansen, Zakim, RRSAgent, Charlie, oedipus

15:00:57 [Charlie]

lost you

15:02:01 [JohnBoyer]

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15:02:23 [Zakim]

+Jack_Jansen

15:02:23 [Zakim]

+[IBM]

15:02:44 [Steven]

Steven has joined #backplane

15:03:19 [Zakim]

+John_Boyer

15:03:35 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-617

15:03:35 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

15:03:42 [Zakim]

+Steven

15:03:51 [oedipus]

TOPIC: Starting Up - Agenda Review

15:04:01 [oedipus]

1. Starting work on the XForms simplified syntax in the Ubiquity project. How (or is) this related to the Backplane?

15:04:06 [oedipus]

2. Plans for demo(s) -- what can we show given current focus areas? a. custom controls for ubiquity library in YUI; b. Data model integration in YUI and Dojo; C. SMIL integration with XForms models; d. Extending the simple loan form with accessibility features (ARIA enabled loan form?)

15:04:10 [oedipus]

3. Finalize goals for joint meetings at Tech Plenary -- given the above, which WGs to meet?

15:04:46 [Kevin]

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15:05:13 [oedipus]

for reference: http://code.google.com/p/ubiquity-xforms/wiki/StorySimplifiedSyntax

15:06:12 [thomas]

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15:06:30 [Steven]

zakim, who is noisy?

15:06:40 [Zakim]

Steven, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Gregory_Rosmaita (60%), Jack_Jansen (48%), [IBM] (4%)

15:06:48 [Steven]

zakim, mute jack

15:06:48 [Zakim]

Jack_Jansen should now be muted

15:07:50 [oedipus]

CW: discuss ARIA and XForms - talk about what it means to be "ARIA enabled" - bit more context might lead into main topic - plan for TPAC 2008

15:08:14 [oedipus]

CW: email with Debi Dahl - MMI WG or Voice/MMI joint meeting - an hour on tuesday or thursday

15:08:28 [oedipus]

CW: liaising with PF WG and Al Gilman

15:08:44 [oedipus]

CW: John, web-apps APIs - forms discussion and backplane discussion

15:09:09 [oedipus]

CW: how does all of what we've discussed fit together; cross-over with groups we want to meet with at TPAC2008

15:09:29 [oedipus]

TOPIC: ARIA-Enabled - What Does It Mean?

15:09:48 [oedipus]

CW: connect dots between ARIA properties and xforms ubiquity project - loan example

15:09:54 [oedipus]

GJR: ARIA discussion

15:12:35 [rahul]

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15:13:06 [oedipus]

CW: dojo starts with div - causes dojo runtime to expand that and then render DIV in accordance to script block

15:13:17 [jackjansen]

q+ to ask whether there's a whitepaper or other intro on ARIA

15:13:51 [Steven]

http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-role/

15:14:24 [jackjansen]

q-

15:15:15 [Steven]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/

15:20:24 [Steven]

http://dojotoolkit.org/book/dojo-book-0-4/part-8-internationalization-and-accessiblity/accessibility/web-accessibility-issu

15:22:11 [oedipus]

CW: ubiquity xforms supports data-binding, xforms notification events - controls extended to accessibility APIs

15:24:04 [oedipus]

CW: need to do more than support @role - can understand how would hook together

15:24:05 [oedipus]

q?

15:24:25 [oedipus]

CW: example of what should do for TPAC -

15:25:11 [oedipus]

CW: interesting thread of investigation

15:25:23 [oedipus]

CW: how much can be leveraged out of widgets in dojo

15:25:32 [oedipus]

GJR: also YUI supporting ARIA

15:27:59 [oedipus]

CW: data model work in dojo ported to YUI

15:28:11 [oedipus]

TOPIC: Toolbag Review

15:28:22 [oedipus]

CW: what makes sense and who to contact at TPAC

15:28:47 [oedipus]

CW: base work on ubiquity library itself - XML Events and work towards embedding xforms functionality in AJAX and dojo

15:29:09 [oedipus]

CW: ubiquity not yet fully implemented - can mix and match as needed

15:29:33 [oedipus]

CW: ubiquity cross-platform delivery programming model -

15:30:42 [oedipus]

CW: custom control - how to use native components in calendars or color picker - binding presentatino object using XForms; data model refactoring data model; SMIL state oriented API - bridging mechanism; not just GUI methodology but multi-modal methodology

15:30:56 [oedipus]

CW: decide on core scenario or demo

15:31:23 [oedipus]

CW: thoughts from those on call - who to impact, what specifics to discuss, what best demo to cover as many cases as possible

15:31:35 [oedipus]

CW: contact with Voice and WAI-PF

15:32:28 [oedipus]

JB: not had a chance to put anything together - interested in (a) modularizatino of components - how much will be available; modules used independently would have IDL libraries associated with them, not just declarative markup

15:32:43 [oedipus]

JB: interest in how the things actually work to create behavior

15:34:13 [oedipus]

JB: short of m12n, ubiquity library - through script libraries able to achieve functionality which xforms rec specified; for large classses of W3C technologies not being held back by UA implementatino; scripts could wire together a centralized data model using components from data libraries bilaterally communicationg; W3C markups that automatically imply behaviors from other W3C specs; xforms controls needs note that input is "rude"

15:34:25 [oedipus]

JB: messaging about core library without modularization

15:34:41 [Steven]

q+

15:34:44 [oedipus]

CW: isn't this all an XBL story? using XBL in stripped down version due to lack of UA support

15:35:10 [oedipus]

CW: doesn't detract from core of JB's point; what we want is clean runtime support for w3c supplied program letter

15:36:03 [oedipus]

SP: second a lot of what JB said; i see our main message being W3C architecture where W3C techs can be plugged together; don't have to define techs monolithically, but can be pieced together, important top-level message; should be unified visino of how W3C should work

15:36:38 [oedipus]

SP: second message to communicate is don't have to depend on UA devs to achieve this - can still make happen because UAs are extensible via script that is largely invisible/under the covers

15:37:02 [oedipus]

CW: could make points with non-modularized ubiquity - runs in YUI, has controls associated with it, but is still xforms 1.1 app

15:37:28 [oedipus]

SP: dojo is extending UAs without UAs having anything to do with it; W3C technologies can be leveraged to do the very same thing

15:37:50 [oedipus]

CW: added load method to trigger reloading - flags events when done

15:37:53 [oedipus]

JB: that's good

15:38:20 [oedipus]

CW: more confident - might have utility for non-xforms markup - especially from behavior POV; can talk about this with Forms WG

15:39:09 [oedipus]

JB: flickr demo, too - uses separate modules; don't need to have m12n complete to get out message - W3C standards and features can be supported, m12n promotes greater adoption and interoperability

15:40:11 [oedipus]

JB: platform message - can make argument that AJAX/Javascript library allows w3c techs to be implemented and provided without the UA participation; allows us as community to find out what works, what needws work, proof-of-value; may sway UA devs for native support

15:40:50 [oedipus]

JB: XBL skimmed down due to IE limitations; another data point for native XBL - XForms component becaumes popular, will be demand for native UA support

15:41:22 [oedipus]

CW: messaging around core ubiquity library - embedding in YUI and CSS - refactoring data side would be strong message in aand of itself

15:42:45 [oedipus]

JB: same class of small apps - purchase order form - more dynamic than just repeat; if can show accessiblity smarts, that is good third message to bring to we apps group - creating content with xforms, gettting good a11y behavior, just using dojo library would have to do yourself;

15:43:36 [jackjansen]

q+

15:43:40 [oedipus]

JB: first ring: javascript/AJAX for implementation of W3C techs; second: modularization; third: accessibility automatic behaviors can get amongst separate techs through platform

15:43:44 [Steven]

q-

15:44:01 [oedipus]

CW: extend ubiquity xforms with subset of notations

15:44:04 [oedipus]

q?

15:44:08 [oedipus]

cak jackjansen

15:44:14 [oedipus]

ack jackjansen

15:45:14 [oedipus]

JJ: fourth ring follows from second and third - if write web apps modularized and with ARIA, can be leveraged to DI - could have big impact on way web app devs can get stuff out

15:45:51 [oedipus]

JB: 1 strength is multi-modality (re-targetting) - always address from implementor side; JJ descirbed how web app community could do this with module replacement - verb part of our noun

15:46:16 [oedipus]

CW: like the 4 rings as message

15:47:17 [oedipus]

JB: how do you write a dojo app - adding controls to elements that ask for certain scripted behavior - showing simplified syntax very appealing to web apps group - looks like what they are used to (controls with attributeds) - can be done both ways

15:47:46 [oedipus]

CW: content-generation model - empty page with DIVs - content generated underneath div for content generation; sitll there, but one step abstracted

15:47:53 [oedipus]

CW: presentation generation

15:48:19 [oedipus]

JB: there is nothing strange about set of W3C techs we are providing; looks, works, and smells like dojo

15:48:53 [oedipus]

CW: content generation cycle - about to get into design discussions - repeatable process with multiple iterations over time

15:49:03 [oedipus]

CW: looping manner aspect very useful

15:49:54 [oedipus]

CW: backplane XG connection with authoring and composability of w3c artifacts and how relate to web and serve as components that can be mixed and matched; content generation at page load

15:50:00 [oedipus]

CW: thanks for pointing that out

15:50:23 [oedipus]

CW: syntax, demos - what else?

15:50:49 [oedipus]

CW: consider JJ's SMIL demo something in back pocket; could do demo on my machine

15:51:00 [oedipus]

CW: GJR follow up offline on a11y stuff

15:51:08 [oedipus]

GJR: yes will work on simple loan app

15:51:31 [oedipus]

JB: one hope is might be able to ARIA enable processor

15:51:52 [oedipus]

CW: do version of abstract control that is ARIA-enabled; loan form good because only few element types

15:52:07 [oedipus]

JJ, a11y equals accessibility; m12n equals modularization

15:52:26 [oedipus]

q-

15:52:32 [oedipus]

q- sorry

15:52:35 [Steven]

ack sorry

15:52:40 [Steven]

ack prof

15:52:48 [Steven]

ack short

15:52:52 [Steven]

ack -

15:52:59 [oedipus]

thanks steven

15:53:06 [oedipus]

CW: can join Forms call

15:53:25 [oedipus]

JB: might help if you do it; can get Forms WG on thursday

15:53:36 [oedipus]

JB: both backplane and forms meeting

15:53:51 [oedipus]

CW: separate conversation around simplified syntax with HTML guys

15:53:54 [oedipus]

JB: right

15:54:00 [oedipus]

CW: anything else for today?

15:54:08 [oedipus]

CW: regrets for upcoming meetings?

15:54:13 [oedipus]

CW: push ahead then

15:54:17 [oedipus]

ADJOURNED

15:54:19 [Zakim]

-[IBM]

15:54:20 [Zakim]

-Steven

15:54:20 [Zakim]

-John_Boyer

15:54:22 [Zakim]

-Jack_Jansen

15:54:22 [Zakim]

-Charlie

15:54:25 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:54:25 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-backplane-minutes.html oedipus

15:54:29 [JohnBoyer]

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15:54:29 [Charlie]

Charlie has left #backplane

15:54:32 [oedipus]

s/a11y/accessibility/G

15:54:35 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:54:35 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-backplane-minutes.html oedipus

15:54:40 [Zakim]

-Gregory_Rosmaita

15:54:41 [Zakim]

INC_RWAB()11:00AM has ended

15:54:42 [Zakim]

Attendees were Gregory_Rosmaita, Charlie, Jack_Jansen, [IBM], John_Boyer, Steven

15:55:00 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:55:00 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-backplane-minutes.html oedipus

15:55:02 [rahul]

rahul has left #backplane

15:55:28 [oedipus]

present- [IBM]

15:55:37 [oedipus]

present+ Rahul_on_IRC

15:55:47 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:55:47 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-backplane-minutes.html oedipus

15:56:38 [oedipus]

present+ Kevin_on_IRC

15:56:41 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:56:41 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-backplane-minutes.html oedipus

15:57:28 [oedipus]

rrsagent, please part

15:57:28 [RRSAgent]

I see no action items