IRC log of backplane on 2008-08-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:29:32 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #backplane

14:29:32 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/08/12-backplane-irc

14:29:36 [Charlie]

thx

14:29:43 [oedipus]

Meeting: Backplane XG Teleconference

14:29:45 [Charlie]

zakim, this will be RWAB

14:29:45 [Zakim]

ok, Charlie; I see INC_RWAB()11:00AM scheduled to start in 31 minutes

14:29:48 [oedipus]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-app-backplane/2008Aug/0006.html

14:29:50 [Charlie]

thx

14:29:53 [oedipus]

Chair: Charles_Wiecha

14:29:57 [oedipus]

Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita

14:30:00 [oedipus]

ScribeNick: oedipus

14:30:01 [Charlie]

you the man!

14:30:04 [oedipus]

Regrets: Kevin_Kelly

14:30:14 [Charlie]

you bet

14:30:57 [oedipus]

"the ability to cause assistive technology (AT) to speak. By using WAI-ARIA, AxsJAX is able to manipulate the DOM such that an ARIA-aware browser plus assistive technology (AT) combination will generate and receive the necessary events which cause the AT to speak what the web developer wishes to be spoken. "

14:31:15 [Charlie]

yes, was just reading the AxsJAX stuff

14:31:19 [Charlie]

on google code

14:31:21 [oedipus]

good

14:31:23 [Charlie]

this is raman's work?

14:31:28 [oedipus]

of course!

14:31:30 [Charlie]

sure

14:32:13 [oedipus]

the key is that we are planning on using ARIA enabled tools: dojo supports ajax, and YUI also is integrating aria support

14:32:33 [Charlie]

would like to understand better what that means

14:32:41 [Charlie]

devil is in the details...

14:32:49 [oedipus]

if it is built-in from the start, then the level of accessibilty is much higher than if an overlay or middleware has to intervene

14:33:02 [Charlie]

we might have a really nice story in the use of xforms in dojo with the ubiquity approach

14:33:15 [Charlie]

i.e. providing the accessibility DOM from the outset as an authored artifact

14:33:22 [Charlie]

rather than built after the fact and exposed

14:33:28 [Charlie]

not sure if any of this makes sense

14:33:29 [oedipus]

basically, scripted objects don't have keyboard support or navigational flow - ARIA allows an AT to interact with an embedded widget

14:34:00 [oedipus]

agree re: ubiquity approach with dojo

14:34:03 [Charlie]

maybe we can look at the custom control that rahul has built in yui over the last few weeks...for calendars and color picking

14:34:11 [oedipus]

yes!

14:34:16 [Charlie]

then talk about how it could be made accessible using aira in dojo/xforms

14:34:22 [oedipus]

i also know the head of yahoo accessibility, victor tsaran

14:34:34 [Charlie]

cool

14:35:32 [oedipus]

basically, ARIA keeps embedded objects and widgets from being perceptual black holes, and allows user interaction with the object/widget by bi-lateral communication between the DOM, ARIA and an AT (assistive technology)

14:36:01 [oedipus]

it's something that was needed 5 years ago - we didn't know how long the development process would take

14:36:32 [oedipus]

ARIA in Gmail Blog: http://www.marcozehe.de/2008/08/04/aria-in-gmail-1-alerts/

14:37:04 [oedipus]

we had google reps at the last ARIA sub-committee meeting to discuss ARIA issues that they have uncovered in deployment

14:37:42 [oedipus]

minutes are at: http://www.w3.org/2008/08/11-pf-minutes.html

14:38:47 [Charlie]

thx...will check that out, sounds like it's the kind of feedback that is very helpful

14:39:00 [Charlie]

which WG is doing ARIA?

14:41:25 [oedipus]

protocols & formats: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF

14:42:02 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-primer/

14:42:18 [Charlie]

thx

14:42:21 [oedipus]

latest editor's drafts -- made public to assist in troubleshooting

14:42:34 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria - the ARIA spec itself

14:43:13 [oedipus]

WAI-ARIA Roadmap (editor's draft) - http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-roadmap

14:43:33 [oedipus]

WAI-ARIA Best Practices: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices

14:44:21 [oedipus]

just added some resources to my proto-page - weba11y.org which is maintained by becky gibson of IBM and a dojo development team leader and point-person for accessibility (a11y)

14:45:09 [Charlie]

here's the link to the calendar html source that rahul will show:

14:45:12 [Charlie]

http://ubiquity-xforms.googlecode.com/svn/branches/calendar/_samples/yui-custom-controls/input-calendar.html

14:45:14 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/app-backplane/wiki/User_talk:GJR#Developers.27_Resources

14:45:21 [oedipus]

thanks -- i'll check it out now

14:45:37 [Charlie]

it should come up and run directly off that URL

14:46:34 [oedipus]

loading as we type..

14:46:38 [Charlie]

k

14:47:51 [oedipus]

problem 1: there is no explicit "Submit" mechanism - this is a WCAG 1.0/2.0 violation

14:48:05 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/TR/wcag10

14:48:12 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/TR/wcag20

14:48:13 [Charlie]

doubt this page actually does anything other than show the calendars...

14:48:18 [oedipus]

ah

14:48:29 [Charlie]

it's to illustrate the code as being checked into the ubiquity project

14:48:35 [Steven]

Steven has joined #backplane

14:48:41 [Charlie]

hi steven!

14:48:48 [oedipus]

still, would be good to make sure the example is WCAG compliant

14:48:53 [oedipus]

aloha, steven!

14:48:56 [Steven]

hi

14:49:02 [Steven]

scribing on another call right now

14:49:08 [Charlie]

let's map out a demo for this XG to do that

14:49:17 [Charlie]

that we can then show at the tech plenary

14:49:25 [oedipus]

wunderbar!

14:49:40 [Charlie]

LOL

14:50:59 [oedipus]

recorded demos of ARIA in action: http://www.weba11y.com/demos/index.html

14:53:04 [Steven]

�� for Gregory's copy buffer

14:53:18 [oedipus]

thanks - er, danke

14:58:12 [Zakim]

INC_RWAB()11:00AM has now started

14:58:19 [Zakim]

+Gregory_Rosmaita

14:58:32 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:58:32 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/12-backplane-minutes.html oedipus

14:59:20 [oedipus]

rrsagent, set logs world-visible

14:59:27 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:59:27 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/12-backplane-minutes.html oedipus

14:59:36 [Zakim]

+[IBM]

14:59:46 [Charlie]

zakim, [IBM] is Charlie

14:59:46 [Zakim]

+Charlie; got it

15:00:21 [rahul]

rahul has joined #backplane

15:00:53 [oedipus]

present+ Rahul

15:01:07 [oedipus]

present+ Peter_Thomas

15:01:53 [jackjansen]

jackjansen has joined #backplane

15:03:14 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-617

15:03:17 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

15:03:19 [Zakim]

+Steven

15:04:10 [oedipus]

TOPIC: Introductions & Agenda Additions/General Comments

15:04:11 [Zakim]

+John_Boyer

15:04:37 [oedipus]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-app-backplane/2008Aug/0006.html

15:04:38 [Charlie]

http://ubiquity-xforms.googlecode.com/svn/branches/calendar/_samples/yui-custom-controls/input-calendar.html

15:04:48 [Zakim]

+ +31.20.616.aaaa

15:04:54 [John_Boyer]

John_Boyer has joined #backplane

15:05:02 [Charlie]

http://ubiquity-xforms.googlecode.com/svn/branches/calendar/_samples/yui-custom-controls/input-calendar.html

15:05:14 [oedipus]

zakim, aaaa is Jack_Jansen

15:05:14 [Zakim]

+Jack_Jansen; got it

15:05:20 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:05:20 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/12-backplane-minutes.html oedipus

15:05:33 [Charlie]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-app-backplane/2008Aug/0006.html

15:06:16 [oedipus]

CW: GJR and i have been chatting about ARIA and accessibility

15:06:33 [oedipus]

CW: want to move towards planning set of demos for tech plenary

15:06:34 [Steven]

rssagent, make log public

15:06:42 [Steven]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:06:42 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/12-backplane-minutes.html Steven

15:06:53 [John_Boyer]

rrsagent, make log public

15:06:57 [oedipus]

CW: need to get back to Debi Dahl and identify other WGs we want to meet with

15:06:58 [John_Boyer]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:06:58 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/12-backplane-minutes.html John_Boyer

15:07:13 [oedipus]

CW: start with rahul's demo

15:07:34 [oedipus]

CW: segue from custom control to ARIA stuff - custom control accessibility

15:07:54 [oedipus]

CW: abstract UI control tree might support ARIA enabling

15:08:19 [oedipus]

CW: JJ read paper last night - didn't know about Mark Birbeck's SMIL work

15:08:27 [oedipus]

CW: scripting limitations of SMIL

15:08:34 [oedipus]

CW: agenda addenda?

15:08:45 [Steven]

zakim, mute me

15:08:45 [Zakim]

Steven should now be muted

15:09:03 [oedipus]

TOPIC: Rahul's Calendar Picker Example

15:09:12 [oedipus]

http://ubiquity-xforms.googlecode.com/svn/branches/calendar/_samples/yui-custom-controls/input-calendar.html

15:09:20 [oedipus]

CW: platforms? using mac

15:09:32 [oedipus]

GJR: using FF3.01 with JAWS9

15:09:53 [oedipus]

s/with JAWS/with JAWS9 on WinXP Pro

15:10:22 [oedipus]

GJR will try later with orca (GNOME screen reader) and FF3.01

15:10:36 [John_Boyer]

John_Boyer has joined #backplane

15:10:37 [oedipus]

CW: shall i use web dialogs?

15:10:49 [oedipus]

JJ: doesn't work in safari -- doesn't crash it, but nothing happens

15:10:59 [Charlie]

http://ubiquity-xforms.googlecode.com/svn/branches/calendar/_samples/yui-custom-controls/input-calendar.html

15:11:01 [oedipus]

CW: don't think will work with Safari and Opera

15:11:45 [Steven]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:11:45 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/12-backplane-minutes.html Steven

15:12:29 [oedipus]

Rahul: calendar control exposed as xforms input or xforms range - airline reservation scenario

15:12:54 [oedipus]

Rahul: started with YUI library - object, leverage YUI widgets and add ubiquity-xform

15:13:35 [oedipus]

Rahul: 3 custom controls - reason for 3 variants is to explore xforms markup - one uses CSS class, one uses datatype and one uses ???

15:14:02 [oedipus]

Rahul: could come from different AJAX libraries; using xforms model to tie together across AJAX libraries (backplane end of it)

15:14:22 [oedipus]

Rahul: can do variants by tweaking appearance -- popup calendar, standing calendar

15:14:36 [oedipus]

Rahul: just started with this excercise

15:14:59 [oedipus]

??: current value in data model that you are bound to, can edit from either direction

15:15:14 [Charlie]

s/??/Charlie

15:15:56 [oedipus]

Rahul: since using data bindings provided by xforms model - if look at source, very little application code to perform synchronization; using AJAX library YUI provides bindings; still need application mode

15:16:17 [oedipus]

CW: using ubiquity model all UI provided by YUI framework

15:16:36 [oedipus]

CW: xforms controls in play, AJAX doing custom widget rendering; child of xforms control

15:17:12 [oedipus]

CW: if look at DOM, separate label for xforms, child container element for what is needed by AJAX library which perfoms rendering

15:17:40 [Steven]

zakim, who is muted?

15:17:40 [Zakim]

I see Steven, Jack_Jansen muted

15:17:54 [oedipus]

CW: tying to accessibility, dives down below visible markup; factors DOM in running browser; interaction and data binding used for presentational purposes, will be easy to integrate ARIA interfaces

15:18:08 [oedipus]

TOPIC: Approach to AJAX

15:18:31 [oedipus]

CW: abstract UI control good starting point for adding ARIA to support assistive technology

15:18:58 [oedipus]

CW: illustrates use case - ubiquity approach via AJAX in sub-trees, could be leveraged for accessibility

15:19:12 [oedipus]

CW: any questions/comments on controls?

15:19:13 [rahul]

s/???/XForms appearance attribute/

15:19:27 [oedipus]

GJR: lack of explicit submit mechanism for form (WCAG violation)

15:19:38 [oedipus]

JB: hangs my machine

15:20:06 [oedipus]

Rahul: can try locally -- incredibly faster

15:20:30 [oedipus]

JJ: if inspect dom via FF, first control has input stuff, but where is calendar input

15:20:53 [oedipus]

JJ: if walk through DOM tree see input control, but no trace of the calenar inputs

15:21:26 [oedipus]

Rahul: in FireBug go to HTML tag

15:21:38 [oedipus]

Rahul: open BODY and will find TABLE in there; expand that

15:21:51 [oedipus]

JJ: table incomplete -- only first column before variable tag

15:22:03 [oedipus]

JJ: ah, hidden in different place then i thought they'd be

15:22:25 [oedipus]

JJ: table with 1 row that happens to stack

15:23:47 [oedipus]

CW: ARIA makes distinction between A11y DOM and UA DOM; additional level of tree stucture; why isn't this abstract UI tree in XForms? giving authoring story to provide community

15:26:22 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/#tree

15:26:25 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/#treegrid

15:27:32 [oedipus]

i think i need to call back in

15:27:36 [Steven]

we hear you

15:27:36 [Zakim]

-Gregory_Rosmaita

15:27:58 [Charlie]

k

15:28:20 [Steven]

ack me

15:28:42 [Steven]

zakim, mute me

15:28:42 [Zakim]

Steven should now be muted

15:28:51 [Zakim]

+Gregory_Rosmaita

15:29:00 [Steven]

JohnBoyer: I still use IE 3.2

15:29:12 [Steven]

:-p

15:29:52 [John_Boyer]

I want to make sure we still have Opera compatibility!

15:32:05 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/#grid

15:36:57 [oedipus]

CW: think about xf namespace elements are where properties are

15:37:21 [thomas]

thomas has joined #backplane

15:37:24 [oedipus]

CW: intuition - hiding calendar is clean -- does accessibilty make cleaner

15:37:48 [oedipus]

CW: should we take further to ascertain how accessibility cna be obtained

15:38:02 [oedipus]

JJ: like what i hear - doesn't mess up DOM, IDs all there -- much better

15:39:05 [oedipus]

CW: shadowing - XBL something like this

15:39:58 [oedipus]

CW: demo ideal for the point that can work today - AJAX implementation plus ARIA could provide support for xforms on today's browsers - good to take to WAI and Forms at Tech Plenary

15:40:42 [oedipus]

CW: make sense to follow up with GJR - working on simple load form to illustrate simple app - not only nice looking form that runs in YUI and/or AJAX

15:41:08 [jackjansen]

q+ to ask whether there's a timeframe for Safari support

15:41:10 [oedipus]

??: calendaring important - may need more work

15:41:19 [oedipus]

CW: part of GUI aspect of form

15:41:33 [oedipus]

GJR: if have access to code, can ARIA enable

15:41:51 [oedipus]

best ARIA test suite so far: http://test.cita.uiuc.edu/aria/

15:43:49 [oedipus]

CW: get discussion going on list - can point to form fragments, and add ARIA support to them

15:44:22 [oedipus]

??: loan form - how do you tell someone who cannot see something that is not relevant and now visible?

15:45:01 [Charlie]

s/??/John_Boyer

15:45:04 [oedipus]

??: if type principal for loan, not enough info - need to set duration of loan - still need to calculate interest rate; when entered enough info, can show you something you couldn't do before

15:45:16 [Charlie]

s/??/John_Boyer

15:47:04 [oedipus]

CW: map between XForms and ARIA

15:47:37 [oedipus]

GJR: will provide list of ARIA derived from XForms

15:47:57 [oedipus]

CW: mapping between ubiquity events and control - core javascript behavior in ubiquity that is ARIA enabled

15:48:38 [oedipus]

TOPIC: XForms Model and UI controls in SMIL

15:49:02 [oedipus]

CW: interesting notion of data model extension serving as UI for SMIL agent to drive dynamic properties and synchronize

15:49:18 [oedipus]

JJ's background paper: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-app-backplane/2008Aug/0005.html

15:49:40 [oedipus]

CW: wanted to highlight need for custom loop code to drive the google map API

15:50:33 [oedipus]

CW: MarkB has example using XBL - can reuse that - uses data model and UI into googlemap logic; set of xforms elements that handles all google map info; on SMIL side, have xforms control as well; can use ubiquity to add databinding into bicycle tour

15:51:30 [oedipus]

JJ: back up one step - idea started as way of getting state in model; evolving into SMIL execution model - declarative, unlike javascript; trying to see how a declarative execution model enable a certain classs of applicatinos without using javascript

15:52:20 [oedipus]

JJ: always will be apps that need javascript, but large number of places where could use SMIL plus data model; applications can then be transformed, accessified - can do what you can't do in the javascript black hole

15:52:42 [oedipus]

CW: showed in paper SMIL and XForms components

15:53:21 [oedipus]

JJ: map feature - googlemaps part of problem - modifying text in HTML - if xforms output can be used, once data model changes, can change visible text on page but cannot change the URI of a link

15:53:38 [oedipus]

JJ: hoping to use XBL - but no XBL for Safari

15:54:09 [oedipus]

JJ: screen shots on page 2 - can't change link via xforms - so little bit of javascript that smashes value from data model into HREF of anchor

15:54:58 [oedipus]

JJ: for my types of apps, if have attribute value templates - in any attribute value, can put xforms expression in curly braces and gets evaluated at runtime

15:55:17 [oedipus]

CW: could have same result as rahul

15:55:36 [oedipus]

JJ: then have to tell stylesheets that though this is not an anchor tag, should use formatting defined for anchor

15:55:52 [oedipus]

CW: Ubiquity SMIL project Mark Birbeck is running?

15:55:54 [oedipus]

JJ: no

15:56:02 [oedipus]

CW: just found out about it recently

15:56:11 [oedipus]

GJR: notes that safari being ARIA enabled

15:56:26 [oedipus]

JJ: have to look at how much of SMIL is implemented for type of demos want to sho

15:57:23 [oedipus]

JJ: would solve plugin problem when viewing demo

15:57:40 [oedipus]

GJR: http://juicystudio.com/article/safari-support-aria.php

15:58:14 [oedipus]

CW: will post SMIL ubiquity info on list

15:59:10 [Charlie]

http://code.google.com/p/ubiquity-smil/

15:59:18 [oedipus]

JJ: research work is "dumb" from one point of view; from another deployable, anything deployable should advance the work

15:59:32 [jackjansen]

s/dumb/done

15:59:59 [oedipus]

CW: compelling point in paper is data driven API - show how Mark done from maps side and JJ from SMIL side - add to list of tech plenary demos?

16:00:13 [oedipus]

JJ: wouldn't mind doing demo, but participation in person a big if

16:01:05 [oedipus]

JJ: if ubiquity-smil code can help me with more depth - video synchronization; smil plugin for safari

16:01:12 [oedipus]

CW: limitations

16:01:23 [oedipus]

JB: ubiquity is targetting safari as well

16:01:33 [oedipus]

JB: won't be long, but might not be soon enough

16:02:10 [Zakim]

-Steven

16:02:17 [oedipus]

JJ: understand: FF would be nicer platform, but in Safari, get binding integration free - not available in FF - anyone know of javascript bridge for FF?

16:02:42 [jackjansen]

Javascript <-> Python, that is...

16:02:56 [oedipus]

CW: next week: set of demos that can take to tech plenary - calendar picker and JJ's demo

16:03:09 [Zakim]

-John_Boyer

16:03:11 [Zakim]

-Charlie

16:03:13 [Zakim]

-Jack_Jansen

16:03:13 [John_Boyer]

John_Boyer has left #backplane

16:03:15 [Charlie]

Charlie has left #backplane

16:03:15 [oedipus]

CW: take pulse of projects and decide about moving forward

16:03:30 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

16:03:30 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/12-backplane-minutes.html oedipus

16:03:34 [Zakim]

-Gregory_Rosmaita

16:03:35 [Zakim]

INC_RWAB()11:00AM has ended

16:03:36 [Zakim]

Attendees were Gregory_Rosmaita, Charlie, Steven, John_Boyer, +31.20.616.aaaa, Jack_Jansen

16:04:22 [oedipus]

present- +31.20.616.aaaa

16:04:26 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

16:04:26 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/12-backplane-minutes.html oedipus

16:06:01 [oedipus]

ACTION: Gregory - post list of aria roles, properties and states derived from or related to XForms concepts

16:06:06 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

16:06:06 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/12-backplane-minutes.html oedipus

16:09:04 [rahul]

rahul has left #backplane

16:20:09 [oedipus]

rrsagent, please part

16:20:09 [RRSAgent]

I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/12-backplane-actions.rdf :

16:20:09 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Gregory - post list of aria roles, properties and states derived from or related to XForms concepts [1]

16:20:09 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/12-backplane-irc#T16-06-01