RIF Telecon 8 Jul 2008 -- 08 Jul 2008

I can scribe

yes

<ChrisW> Scribe: StellaMitchell

<ChrisW> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Jul/att-0037/20080701-RIF-minutes.html

Admin

<ChrisW> PROPOSED: accept Minutes from July 1 telecon

cw: any objections to accepting minutes from last week?

<ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept Minutes from July 1 telecon

cw: any agenda ammendments?

F2F11

cw: next f2f end of Sept in NY. I would like to know whether people prefer Hawnthorne or at IBM facility in Manhattan

<josb> +1 Manhattan

cw: please let me know if you have a preference. Default is in Hawthorne

<AxelPolleres> I prefer the lower cost options to some extent.

Admin

Action Review

<AxelPolleres> yes, I did

cw: all documents are frozen except for FLD?

harold: yes

job: rdf/owl is not frozen. I'm waiting for BLD freeze, and wiki was broken today

<AxelPolleres> I will also send some more comments to you by tonite, jos.

josb: it will be ready to be frozen tomorrow

harold: FLD is promised by this friday, but will try for earlier

cw: action review

action-538 completed

action-537 completed

action-534 continued

action-530 will be complete by friday

jos: review of FLD by next tuesday

Document review

cw: dtb is frozen and waiting for my review
... adrian, is there a person assigned to review UCR?

adrian: no, not yet

cw: volunteer to review UCR?

I can review UCR

<ChrisW> ACTION: Stella to review UCR for next WD [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/08-rif-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-539 - Review UCR for next WD [on Stella Mitchell - due 2008-07-15].

cw: BLD will be reviewed by Leora by friday
... FLD by chris and jos by next tuesday

yes, by end of week

cw: DTB by Chris
... rdf/owl ready for review by tomorrow

<ChrisW> ACTION: Axel to review BLD for LC [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/08-rif-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-540 - Review BLD for LC [on Axel Polleres - due 2008-07-15].

cw: prd is already reviewed

jos: and I will review BLD by the end of this week

<ChrisW> ACTION: jos to review bld [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/08-rif-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - jos

<trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jdebruij2, jderoo)

<ChrisW> ACTION: jdebruij2 to review bld [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/08-rif-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-541 - Review bld [on Jos de Bruijn - due 2008-07-15].

Mime Types

cw: Sandro put the mime types in BLD. Has anyone reviewed?

harold: yes, it looks good

cw: do you need any changes?

harold: no, it's fine. Security is an open ended topic.
... he talks about documents that come by dereferencing, but not about other things such as computaiton that does not end

<DaveReynolds> Surely the current wording addresses both?

harold: so, he picks one particular example, but doesn't mention other cases

cw: are you talking about implementations or specific rule sets?

harold: yes, he doesn't mention rule sets that will cause compuation that doesn't end

<Harold> Sandro mentions: "Through the use of "import", it may

<Harold> also require arbitrary URI dereferencing, which may consume

<Harold> all available network resources on the consuming system or

<Harold> other systems."

daver: I think the current text covers that case

cw: yes, I also think it does

harold: ok

cw: any other comments on mime type?

Casting

cw: axel, can you summarize this issue?

axel: in the DTB document, section 4.3 cast and conversion functions
... casts from and to rif:iri - do we want these, and how should we do them
... and there was also a question about from rif:text to string
... first, we have to wait until we resolve rif:text with owl working group
... should conversion take only the string, or the string with the language tag
... both would be fine, currently only take the string part
... rif: iri (4.3.5 and 4.3.6) function style is possible in one direction, if we define axiomatic equalities (4.3.5)
... but this is not possible in the other direction, because the axioms would cause inconsistencies
... I prefer functions wherever possible, and predicate only where function can't be used
... (as opposed to making from and to rif:iri both predicates)
... mk and jos said the predicate will cover both directions of casting

jos: yes, the function is redundant, and another argument against 4.3.5 is that is is not a function in the way that the other casting functions are, because rif:iri is not a data type

axel: I agree that what you say is true, but still want to leave it the way it is

jos: simpler and more understandable to have the one predicate

cw: are you arguing to use this method for all cases?

jos: no, just rif:iri

cw: what about doing it for all?

jos: possible, but maybe not natural, because we are following xquery, and because they are actually functions
... but I still wouldn't be completely against it

axel: predicates makes writing things more complicated

cw: any other opinions?

<MichaelKifer> I agree with Jos.

<ChrisW> Axel +1, Jos -1

cw: straw poll,

<josb> -1

<DaveReynolds> -0.1

<AxelPolleres> Strawpoll: Keep 4.3.5: +1 drop: -1

<Harold> 0

<MichaelKifer> -1

<AxelPolleres> +1

<LeoraMorgenstern> -1

-1

<AdrianP> 0

cw: I will put this in the form of a proposed resolution (jos's proposal) and let people know that we'll be voting on it next week

jos: what about between rif:text and strings?

jos... the issue is from rif:text to string. according to current spec, you lose the language when casting from rif:text to string

scribe: but the other direction is only defined for strings that have language id embedded

<ChrisW> adrian is that you?

<AxelPolleres> casting from string to numbers is also not round-drippable... "0001"

daver: casting from text to string, using only the string part make sense to me. but is there also a 2 argument constructor to create a string, and also an extractor to get the lang from the string

jos: I think we don't have the constructor

axel: I don't agree with the roundtripping argument because (?)..... and also then it would be complicated to get out the string part

<AdrianPa> sorry, dropped out. I'm currently travelling and do not have a stable line

jos: I now agree with dave's idea that we change the cast in 4.3.4 to take 2 arguments
... ...first literal string and second language tag

cw: I agree that current cast doesn't really make sense

axel: it comes from the presentation syntax, it would be easy to implement for the presentation syntax
... yes, I agree to change 4.3.4 to 2 argument version

<ChrisW> ACTION: change 4.3.4 to a two arg function (string,lang) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/08-rif-minutes.html#action05]

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - change

<ChrisW> ACTION: axel to change 4.3.4 to a two arg function (string,lang) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/08-rif-minutes.html#action06]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-542 - Change 4.3.4 to a two arg function (string,lang) [on Axel Polleres - due 2008-07-15].

axel: I think we should add a shortcut for rif:text then, in the presentation syntax

jos: that was discussed at length at f2f10, with no agreement
... also, 4.7.1, axel and I disagree over the name of the extraction function
... it is inconsistent with the rest. I think it shojuld be called lang-from-text

axel: the others come from xquery, this one comes from sparql
... but I could live with jos's naming

jos: it's all caps in sparql

axel, cw: sparql is not case sensitive

<DaveReynolds> +0.1

cw: straw poll

<ChrisW> Straw Poll +1 prefer func:lang, -1 prefer func:lang-from-text

<LeoraMorgenstern> -1

<josb> -1

<MichaelKifer> 0

<AxelPolleres> strawpoll: +1 lang -1 lang-from-XYZtext

<Harold> -0.1

<AxelPolleres> +1

<AdrianPa> +1

cw: default is leaving it as is

axel: jos and I agreed to put editor's not on things we don't agree on, and get comments from external reviewers

<josb> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/DTB#func:op:add-yearMonthDuration-to-dateTime_.28adapted_from_op:add-yearMonthDuration-to-dateTime.29

cw: other issues on casting?

jos: in the above DTB section, inconsistence in names
... which is intended?

axel: can I fix this even though wiki says the document should not be changed

jos: it's just a simple editorial change
... the one in the schema is the correct name, right?

axel: yes

mk: grammar changes are also ok, right?

cw: yes

<AxelPolleres> -1 to adding double-negations

cw: any other discjussion on DTB?

AOB

axel: I would like all the access phone numbers in the agenda emails

<ChrisW> ACTION: chris to update access numbers in agenda [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/08-rif-minutes.html#action07]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-543 - Update access numbers in agenda [on Christopher Welty - due 2008-07-15].

cw: any other business?

sorry, calling back

- DRAFT -

RIF Telecon 8 Jul 2008

08 Jul 2008

Attendees

Contents

Admin

F2F11

Admin

Action Review

Document review

Mime Types

Casting

AOB

Summary of Action Items

Scribe.perl diagnostic output