See also: IRC log
<scribe> Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
<scribe> ScribeNick: oedipus
<jsalvachua> Hello, good morning
CW: markup examples - embedding
in dojo
... First example of using ubiquity modules in AJAX: xforms
model and submission in Dojo
<Charlie> webdialogs.com
<Charlie> meeting code is 801862
CW: welcome to Jack - joining us
today
... brief introductions
Jack: member of SYMM WG work on SMIL; SMIL state
JJ: integration into web apps for SMIL states
CW: welcome
<jsalvachua> i think the noise its me
<jackjansen> oedipus, I am +31.20
CW: background
<Charlie> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_Future_Features
CW: spent good chunk of times
refactoring XForms spec into modules
... XForms 1.2 M12n
... different from original backplane note (2006 Amsterdam)
<jsalvachua> 34 spain
CW: modulized XForms with finer
grade modules; trying to reflect XHTML m12n
... backplane - implementing modules into host languages
... started in XG investigating ubiquity xforms (google
code)
<John_Boyer> http://code.google.com/p/ubiquity-xforms/
JJ: had quick look - needs serious study
CW: Forms POV and Backplane POV is digestable in small pieces
<John_Boyer> For developers (consumers) of ubiquity, here is a google interest group: http://groups.google.com/group/ubiquity-xforms
CW: what if author just interested in Data Model and want to support in Web 2.0 application; just need to use relevant modules
JJ: ubiquity forms stuff very very interesting; no support on Safari
<jackjansen> agrees with steven
CW: by virtue of AJAX
implementation, get out of plug-ins
... hope is twofold: 1) cross-platform implementation; 2)
beyond the desktop (mobile, etc.)
... ubiquity and XG symbiotic relationship to extend ubiquity
model with non-traditional types of content (beyond forms and
HTML)
JB: couple of google groups for
developers - consult URIs pasted above -
... how to use, rather how to develop
oedipus@hicom.net
<John_Boyer> Here is a link to a group that will be focused on consumers of the new ubiquity library: http://groups.google.com/group/ubiquity-xforms
CW: goal - sense of direction to
drive examples - using ubiquity library for other
purposes
... dojo data provider
... discuss support of custom controls in dojo with XForms
wrappers
<John_Boyer> This is different than contributing to the ubiquity library, which has this other group: http://groups.google.com/group/ubiquity-xforms-eng
CW: what would be something to
implement - email client? who are we addressing
... 1) who are we trying to impact and 2) choosing an example
to code
<Steven> I am
<Steven> I know
JB: CW has to relaunch before everyone can join
<John_Boyer> Once Charlie launches: www.webdialogs.com/join code 801862
<Steven> I was waiting to be invited to talk
<Charlie> meeting is up you can rejoin
Steven: question who are we trying to impact - ourselves are the customers - all W3C WGs doing things with similar use cases but weork independently so all end up slightly different and think use cases different, see W3C and its WGs prime candidates - makes W3C Submit standard; XML Events 2 library; put as much in core as possible
CW: rather than focusing on AJAX integration and dojo integration - mix and match with other XML namespaces?
SP: that should be our aim; dojo as an implementation of concept and no more than that; in end, ideally, use cases should become markup without need to program out - find way to declaratively markup so can be supported natively or through script, but in the end gives you what you want
CW: return to SP's point after demo
<Steven> "Your Web browser does not meet the requirements
<Steven> for joining a presentation."
<Steven> Doesn't work for me
SP: doesn't work with opera
CW: do you have FF?
TL: follows dojo api which allow
any dojo widget (XForms data module) do things server side to
process; allows one to export data model, dojo stores model and
uses DOM;
... XForms data module - accept data, on javascript side create
adjacent object with data model id, formation id, and custom
??? id - uses XPath to add to bucket
... dojo object registered through DOM
... demo does search on picasa - used modular extensions and
mozilla data model extension
... if type "XForms" and do a search, returns XML document; use
dojo data storage to put image into thumbnail anchor
... can use title as well as thumbnail - if click on it, you
get the image
... all done by dojo widget - data model allows dojo widget to
crunch data from XForm - any dojo widget that could use this as
way to send data up the web
... also have another example - how easy to use - picasa
example
... bunch of images - one library lists - only thing diff
between 2 is data model and call for item and call for form
JB: traditional dojo author would write script that wouldn't capture differences between picasa and flickr - 2 different declarative statements
TL: XPath retrieves data (images) to show picture
CW: Use case - differentiate interfaces using dojo - is it the kind of thing trhat has "legs" - injects some XForms modules into AJAX framework
JB: piece of XForms markup not very big so not doing much - just doing submission - what would look like without XForms markup?
TL: if don't have XForms markup, have to use data storage which has to fetch from web server - implementation in dojo that does that
CW: doing comparission might be a good thing - declarative layer boiled out of code
JJ: very excited - touches on demo i'm working on - can point to demo if keep confidential
<jackjansen> smil state demo: http://homepages.cwi.nl/~jack/NoBudget/
JJ: only works in safari on
mac
... integrating SMIL and googlemaps and XForms and web content
- big problem: tying all the stuff together
... dojo would have made life easier
CW: backplane POV would prefer
XML Event notification between model and ticker; complete
backplane compliance should have XForms value change ond
notification events
... data model piece simplifies even if databinding is
custom
JB: what does this look like without the XForms markup? if have XForms markup for submission piece alone, what if using YUI or other library - benefit of standardization - AJAX programmers don't all use dojo; want to standardize states and submission which makes them available to mujltiple application languages - actual markup languages as well
CW: get certain amount of simplification through declarative markup, but still framework issues if differences show through programming model
JB: more backplane - submission working in demo, even though not using Events; chunk of markup that could be used by dojo programmer or YUI programmer, or in SMIL app
CW: can capture results and use
own notification
... would a dojo programmer want to use this?
... how to invest effort?
... build assets and compelling examples to motivate AJAX
community to pay attention to our work
... helpful exercise for that? should that be our agenda?
... who are our audiences
JB: think is right tack
... excited by demo and want a copy to demonstrate
... even with small part of big picture - what is CW's comment
about "smothering" related - markup could be reused if someone
crteated the right "glue" could be used by dojo user, glue
determines library
CW: misunderstood - want output useable by dojo and YUI user
JB: even this little demo shows benefit of encoding most important pieces - don't have to change dojo widget (strength of dojo) - gives dojo neew capaibility to provide data sources
CW: don't have to change script
to go from flickr to picasa
... do YUI implementation to show binding to diff script
objects
JB: right
CW: Events not burried in script
- can register own listeners if use submit
... mix-and-match - element semantics in parallell with dojo
widgets and listeners
TL: already added some but used dojo callback - in model argument, specify what kind of code you want
CW: listening directly with XML listener along with DOM listener
JB: if have SOAP based web
server, could do some clever bits when information came
back
... TL's code uses events (submitDone, submitError) in glue
codes to tell dojo when and what info available
... backplane - events are key to how components talk to each
other
CW: return to JJ's use case?
JJ: suggest people have a look at
it if can
... question: always looked at XBL for glue language -
particularly gluing changes in data model to javascript - does
XBL have part to play here?
SP: XBL has good chance of enhancing work - seen excellent examples linking XHTML, XForms and SVG together
JJ: sample URI?
SP: XForms+SVG version of
googlemaps
... not currently working; will ping author again
CW: ubiquity library in FF uses XBL to add behaviors to each XForms namespaced elements in page - calls conventional javascript object
SP: that's what XBL does
CW: yes, but use object attached with XBL - javascript could be used to manipulate DOM
SP: does ubiquity use XBL?
CW: no
... not too much XForms in XBL directly due to javascript
limitations
... postpone custom controls discussion until next week
... what examples should we build?
<Steven> I vote for Google maps in XForms
CW: something more
complete?
... agree? ideas?
SP: i vote for google maps in
XForms - hundreds of thousands of lines in javascript - shrunk
dramatically when put into declarative form (XForms)
... combine more than 1 W3C tech into example
... splitting google maps into functional part (looking at
latitue and longitude at particluar zoom level) - rest
presentational on top of essential function - just chaning
latitude, longitude and zoom
CW: overlays, pinpointe,
etc.
... other mashups?
... like example - clear separation of backplane from UI
... Silverlight in XForms in backplane - navigator for olympics
as good as Silverlight?
GJR: Silverlight port to linux underway by mono project at novell
JB: no depository for demos
TL: picasa allows to create album
CW: google docs - calanders and such
GJR: would like to "see" one non-visually dependent example or an example of using declarative markup to reuse data stream
CW: feed reader example might be
good - google example would be good too - entry point into
data
... discuss on list components and stictch together next
call
JB: with JJ on call and expertise with SMIL and SYMM - binding media presentations with underlying data - short presenation possible?
JJ: be gone for 4 weeks begining next week - submitted paper and if i can share, will post URI on list, otherwise will have to wait until presentatoin formally given
CW: pick up next week with custom controls
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.133 of Date: 2008/01/18 18:48:51 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/webexamples.com/webdialogs.com/ Succeeded: s/: follows/TL: follows/ Succeeded: s/??:/TL:/G Succeeded: s/TL:/TL:/ Succeeded: s/picassa/picasa/G Succeeded: s/picasa/picasa/G Found Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita Found ScribeNick: oedipus Default Present: Charlie, +31.20.616.aaaa, John_Boyer, Gregory_Rosmaita, +34.91.549.aabb, Steven, jackjansen? Present: +31.20.616.aaaa +34.91.549.aabb Charlie Gregory_Rosmaita Jack_Jansen John_Boyer Steven Regrets: Kevin Uli Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-app-backplane/2008Jun/0016.html Got date from IRC log name: 24 Jun 2008 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2008/06/24-backplane-minutes.html People with action items: WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]