IRC log of css on 2008-05-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:56:58 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #css
15:56:58 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/05/28-css-irc
15:57:01 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #css
15:57:02 [krijnh]: krijnh has joined #css
15:57:07 [dbaron]: RRSAgent, make logs public
15:57:09 [dbaron]: Zakim, this will be style
15:57:09 [Zakim]: ok, dbaron, I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM already started
15:57:15 [dbaron]: Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:57:15 [Zakim]: On the phone I see dsinger
15:57:21 [dsinger]: that's me
15:57:22 [Zakim]: + +1.760.741.aaaa
15:57:45 [plinss]: zakim, +1.760.741 is plinss
15:57:45 [Zakim]: +plinss; got it
15:58:36 [glazou]: glazou has joined #css
15:59:15 [Zakim]: +Daniel_Glazman
15:59:20 [dbaron]: I may have to leave at the half hour today.
16:01:08 [Zakim]: + +47.21.64.aabb
16:01:16 [Zakim]: +David_Baron
16:01:52 [Zakim]: + +95380aacc
16:02:06 [Bert]: zakim, aacc is me
16:02:07 [Zakim]: +Bert; got it
16:02:11 [Zakim]: + +1.703.265.aadd
16:02:49 [Zakim]: +??P42
16:03:33 [howcome]: howcome has joined #css
16:03:42 [plinss]: zakim, +1.703 is jason_cranfordtea
16:03:44 [Zakim]: +jason_cranfordtea; got it
16:04:06 [plinss]: zakim, +47 is howcome
16:04:06 [Zakim]: +howcome; got it
16:04:33 [plinss]: zakim, who is on the phone?
16:04:33 [Zakim]: On the phone I see dsinger, plinss, Daniel_Glazman, howcome, David_Baron, Bert, jason_cranfordtea, ??P42
16:04:42 [myakura]: myakura has joined #css
16:04:52 [alexmog]: alexmog has joined #css
16:05:10 [dsinger]: what IS a ??P42 number?
16:05:23 [Arron]: I think that is Saloni
16:05:39 [Zakim]: +fantasai
16:06:08 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
16:08:26 [glazou]: uuuh ?
16:11:06 [alexmog]: zakim, [Microsoft] is alex
16:11:06 [Zakim]: +alex; got it
16:12:43 [fantasai]: ScribeNick: fantasai
16:12:45 [fantasai]: Topic: Charter
16:12:58 [fantasai]: Peter: Sent out charter list yesterday.
16:13:16 [fantasai]: Peter: Got some feedback on Generated Content, Marquee
16:13:35 [fantasai]: Peter: Are there any modules people can't live without?
16:13:43 [fantasai]: Jason: List coincides with AOL's direction
16:13:56 [fantasai]: dbaron: A little upset that flexbox was dropped
16:14:09 [fantasai]: dbaron: We have two prefixed implementations
16:14:14 [fantasai]: dbaron: don't know if they are interoperable
16:15:19 [fantasai]: Peter: I'm concerned that people don't think we will get anything to REC
16:15:35 [fantasai]: fantasai: CSS Namespaces will go to REC. Selectors should be able to get there
16:15:39 [fantasai]: dbaron: Color
16:15:43 [fantasai]: howcome: Media Queries
16:16:01 [fantasai]: dbaron: we have two implementations of that, soon to be three
16:17:47 [fantasai]: Peter: CSS2.1?
16:19:13 [fantasai]: fantasai: I wouldn't expect that. Good chance we won't make it to REC.
16:19:54 [fantasai]: Jason: Requirements for PR?
16:20:15 [fantasai]: fantasai: complete test suite, for each test 2 implementations that pass
16:20:24 [glazou]: Zakim, who's noisy?
16:20:35 [Zakim]: glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: fantasai (79%), Daniel_Glazman (26%), Bert (32%)
16:22:29 [Bert]: zakim, mute me
16:22:29 [Zakim]: Bert should now be muted
16:22:49 [fantasai]: fantasai: I think we'll have a better idea of where we are with the test suite at the end of this year
16:23:45 [fantasai]: fantasai: not in time for the charter
16:23:56 [fantasai]: peter: anything else?
16:24:13 [fantasai]: dsinger: I need to consult with people here at Apple wrt animations and transitions
16:24:18 [fantasai]: and transformations
16:25:17 [fantasai]: howcome: I think MultiCol is ready
16:26:33 [Bert]: zakim, unmute me
16:26:33 [Zakim]: Bert should no longer be muted
16:26:35 [fantasai]: fantasai: It needs work. Some parts are underdefined. I have some comments on that, can help
16:26:52 [fantasai]: fantasai: We should be able to get it to CR soon, though
16:26:59 [Zakim]: -Bert
16:27:05 [fantasai]: fantasai: And if we can get together resources for a test suite, to REC within 2 years
16:27:35 [fantasai]: peter: Anything we can't get to CR?
16:27:42 [fantasai]: fantasai: Text and Text Layout
16:28:27 [fantasai]: fantasai: CR for those would be very ambitious... Paul and I don't have time to work on them this year
16:28:44 [dsinger]: I keep wanting to know, for each module, who the primary proponent is, and who responded to the survey saying that they could put resources on it...is that list available?
16:30:11 [fantasai]: peter: Paged Media?
16:30:15 [fantasai]: fantasai: CR this year
16:30:22 [fantasai]: fantasai: HP is working on a test suite, so shouldn't have a problem there
16:30:37 [fantasai]: fantasai: Will need implementations. We should have implementations for all features soon
16:30:55 [fantasai]: fantasai: but the older drafts had many things underspecified, and we fixed those up
16:31:01 [dbaron]: I have a conflicting meeting now (hopefully only this week, although maybe next week too). I'll still be on IRC.
16:31:06 [fantasai]: fantasai: so defects would be what keeps us from REC there
16:31:11 [Zakim]: -David_Baron
16:32:20 [fantasai]: fantasai: I think it needed some edits, not much. Paul won't be able to work on it this year
16:32:42 [fantasai]: fantasai: One of Mozilla's devs was interested in implementing. Not sure where it's going to go, though.
16:32:48 [fantasai]: Peter: Stuck in CR then
16:32:54 [fantasai]: Peter: GCPM?
16:33:04 [fantasai]: howcome: I think it's useful spec,
16:33:06 [fantasai]: ...
16:33:09 [fantasai]: Peter: Fonts?
16:33:20 [fantasai]: Jason: Good progress there. I think we can get to CR pretty quickly.
16:33:34 [fantasai]: Jason: Our only concern is the nature of downloadable fonts.
16:33:47 [fantasai]: Jason: I don't think we're proposing anything else that is controversial
16:33:58 [fantasai]: howcome: You're putting Web Fonts back in the Fonts specification?
16:34:04 [fantasai]: Jason: Yes.
16:34:33 [fantasai]: howcome: The subset that's implemented or everything?
16:34:36 [fantasai]: Jason: everything
16:35:06 [fantasai]: Daniel: From discussion with Chris Lilley, most font descriptors were unimplemented.. panose, etc.
16:35:29 [fantasai]: Daniel: So only a subset, not everything, should be in the spec
16:36:00 [fantasai]: Daniel: Fonts spec will be edited by Chris Lilley, Jason, and John Daggett
16:36:11 [fantasai]: Daniel: Small overhead in getting both WG to agree on publication
16:36:28 [fantasai]: Jason: John and I would be willing to split them back out if merging leads to a roadblock
16:36:36 [fantasai]: Jason: I think font properties should be good to go
16:37:24 [fantasai]: Jason: Some issues came up in the design community about being able to suppress synthesized fonts
16:38:30 [fantasai]: Jason: And being able to style different fonts differently
16:38:59 [fantasai]: fantasai: You can use multiple fonts in the same elements because of what glyphs are available. That means you'd style individual glyphs differently
16:39:13 [fantasai]: Peter cuts off technical conversation and redirects to charter
16:39:18 [fantasai]: Peter: Expect CR?
16:39:18 [dsinger]: this seems very detailed here, but I am not sure I agree with the question. it falsl into the case "doctor, it hurts when I do this" and the reply "don't do that, then" seems appealing
16:39:23 [fantasai]: Jason: Yes
16:39:39 [fantasai]: Peter: REC?
16:39:43 [fantasai]: Jason: don't know
16:40:26 [dbaron]: ok, my 9:30 was thankfully quite short... calling back in now.
16:40:27 [Zakim]: +Bert
16:40:32 [fantasai]: Peter: Template Layout?
16:40:34 [Zakim]: +David_Baron
16:41:00 [fantasai]: fantasai: I think CR might be possible, not sure about implementations.. but there remains a lot of work to be done in that spec
16:41:09 [fantasai]: Bert: I think we can get to CR
16:41:16 [fantasai]: Bert: But I haven't heard anybody talk about implementations
16:41:30 [fantasai]: Peter: Tables?
16:42:51 [dsinger]: dbaron: your (?) question where there was a mix of fonts with different intrinsic styles in a fallback list. but it can wait.
16:43:06 [dbaron]: dsinger, I wasn't on the phone then, so it wasn't my question...
16:43:30 [fantasai]: fantasai: MS is not likely to have much time to work on it until after IE8 releases. They usually spend time on specs right after the release
16:43:36 [fantasai]: dbaron: I'm also interested in Tables.
16:43:46 [fantasai]: dbaron: We'd probably want test suite drafts along with working drafts
16:44:08 [fantasai]: dbaron: since it's not about features as about refining definitions
16:44:24 [fantasai]: Peter: CSS Variables
16:44:32 [fantasai]: Daniel: I think we should be able to get this to REC
16:44:45 [dsinger]: safari and who else has this in implementation?
16:45:05 [fantasai]: s/REC/CR/
16:45:05 [dbaron]: Bert, all that work on the old size algorithm was really only a small part of it...
16:45:16 [fantasai]: Daniel: It does not seem to be that complex
16:45:17 [Zakim]: -Daniel_Glazman
16:45:34 [fantasai]: Peter: Box Model
16:45:42 [fantasai]: Bert: Box Model needs implementations
16:45:47 [fantasai]: Bert: of vertical layout
16:46:04 [fantasai]: Bert: It's the same as CSS2.1 for horizontal
16:46:26 [fantasai]: Bert: So maybe CR
16:46:51 [fantasai]: Peter: Extended Box Model
16:46:53 [fantasai]: Bert: WD at most
16:46:58 [fantasai]: Peter: CSSOM View
16:47:12 [fantasai]: fantasai: Need to ask Anne. I would guess REC, but should ask him.
16:47:16 [fantasai]: Peter: Values and Units
16:47:25 [fantasai]: howcome: Kinda sitting there
16:47:36 [fantasai]: dbaron: We agreed to add cycle(), and it's not there.
16:47:46 [fantasai]: dbaron: But I really do want to move this forward
16:48:24 [fantasai]: dbaron: I would hope that we'd have an implementation within 2 years. Maybe not all of it. But there are a bunch of features that I do want to implement.
16:48:34 [fantasai]: Peter: So commitment to CR
16:48:51 [fantasai]: Peter: Grid Positioning?
16:49:02 [fantasai]: fantasai: I suspect WD
16:49:35 [fantasai]: Alex: I would hope for CR.
16:49:44 [fantasai]: Peter: Lists?
16:49:55 [Arron]: Probably WD
16:50:31 [Arron]: maybe CR if the tests suite is done early
16:50:35 [fantasai]: Peter: Generated Content?
16:50:37 [fantasai]: fantasai: CR
16:50:55 [fantasai]: Peter: Cascading and Inheritance
16:51:15 [fantasai]: howcome: not much changes there. Can probably go to CR
16:51:26 [fantasai]: dbaron: Anything new beyond 2.1?
16:51:31 [fantasai]: howcome: I don't think so
16:51:39 [fantasai]: dbaron: If there's nothing new, why bother?
16:52:17 [fantasai]: Peter: If there's nothing beyond 2.1, why do we add this?
16:52:27 [Arron]: Specificity had to change for CSS 3 selectors didn't it?
16:52:33 [Zakim]: + +1.408.881.aaee
16:52:45 [fantasai]: Arron, specificity is defined in Selectors
16:52:58 [fantasai]: dbaron: Can point to 2.1
16:53:03 [fantasai]: s/dbaron/fantasai/
16:53:43 [fantasai]: fantasai: if it's needed for references
16:53:55 [fantasai]: Peter proposes to drop from list
16:54:06 [fantasai]: That seems to be ok
16:54:23 [fantasai]: Peter: Marquee?
16:54:23 [dino]: dino has joined #css
16:54:32 [dbaron]: Zakim, +1.408.881.aaee is Dean_Jackson
16:54:32 [Zakim]: +Dean_Jackson; got it
16:54:49 [fantasai]: Bert: We need to finish that one
16:54:55 [fantasai]: Bert: We have to do that for the mobile profile
16:55:04 [fantasai]: Bert: CR certainly. REC, I'm not sure
16:55:15 [fantasai]: Bert: There are implementations in Mobile, not sure how good they are
16:56:48 [fantasai]: fantasai: I'd aim for CR. Dependency on 2.1 can hold that back
16:56:55 [fantasai]: Peter: FlexBox?
16:57:03 [fantasai]: dbaron: I'd like to at least get working drafts out
16:57:09 [fantasai]: dbaron: CR would be nice, but I'd say working drafts
16:57:46 [fantasai]: Peter: Ok, I will go through list and come up with a new list that reflects what we think we can deliver
16:58:33 [fantasai]: Dean Jackson: I think we can get Animations and Transitions to CR.
16:58:42 [dino]: and Transforms
16:58:46 [plinss]: http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/actions/44
16:59:53 [fantasai]: dbaron: I think in some cases we might have said that if we want to count 2 implementations they have to pass the same test.. if we're going through the "equivalent test" route
17:00:19 [fantasai]: ... where the implementations are passing two different versions of the same test
17:01:14 [fantasai]: dbaron: If we don't require that, then we need to review the equivalent tests very carefully
17:02:06 [Zakim]: -plinss
17:02:32 [fantasai]: RESOLVED: adopt proposed wording for CR exit criteria
17:02:39 [dbaron]: (assuming peter was in favor)
17:02:55 [Zakim]: -dino
17:02:56 [Zakim]: -howcome
17:02:56 [Zakim]: -??P42
17:02:56 [Zakim]: -jason_cranfordtea
17:03:00 [dsinger]: bye, thx, see you in late june
17:03:00 [Zakim]: -alex
17:03:01 [Zakim]: -David_Baron
17:03:02 [Zakim]: -fantasai
17:03:06 [Zakim]: -dsinger
17:03:08 [Zakim]: -Bert
17:03:09 [Zakim]: Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:03:10 [Zakim]: Attendees were dsinger, +1.760.741.aaaa, plinss, Daniel_Glazman, +47.21.64.aabb, David_Baron, +95380aacc, Bert, +1.703.265.aadd, jason_cranfordtea, howcome, fantasai, alex, dino
17:04:00 [dbaron]: Zakim, bye
17:04:00 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #css
17:07:53 [plinss]: plinss has joined #css
17:08:43 [plinss]: Sorry, had a power failure here. Too many CPUs, not enough UPSes...
17:11:26 [plinss_]: plinss_ has joined #css
17:35:35 [fantasai]: RRSAgent: make logs public
17:35:38 [fantasai]: RRSAgent: make minutes
17:35:38 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/05/28-css-minutes.html fantasai
17:58:43 [dbaron]: dbaron has joined #css
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19:33:59 [anne]: great, got my redirect :)
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22:28:34 [anne]: Bert, the specgen doesn't support WG-NOTE
22:29:11 [anne]: Bert, it has some weird requirements, WG-NOTE is the style sheet, NOTE is the this version URI, and "Working Group Note" is the text for <h2>
23:58:41 [Bert]: Anne, it might work now.
23:59:15 [Bert]: (And if not, sorry, you'll have to edit by hand for a few weeks...)