See also: IRC log
<scribe> Scribe: Jan
JB: Who was on call last week?
JR: Sean Hayes
Kelly Ford
Alan Cantor
Jan Richards
Gregory Rosmaita
<AllanJ> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008AprJun/0004.html
JA: So can we put these in our glossary?
JB: Yes if vetted
JR: Some terms used in 4.1 discussion
JA: Reads http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008AprJun/0004.html
SH: Sounded ok though accelerator keys may not be quite right
JB: Also I have contacted a
person at Apple and ther may be interest in bringing someone in
who works with keyboarding issues.
... Are these defintions sufficiently cross-platform?
SH: I think terms may change slightly but general concepts ok
JA: So like "also called..."
SH: But I don't think plle uses keyboard in any fundamental way
JR: I was trying to think of
broad range including cell phones with few keys
... Think examples are maybe Windows specific
AC: WIndows specific
JB: OK i will send this pointer
to them
... Might be premature to add to document yet
JA: OK
JB: It is important to be mapping
out the differences between these terms
... For instance sequential concept is important to me
... Many people seem to think its no problem to have many many
arrowing actions to operate a menu etc
AC: So two issues...1. how much
is too much, 2nd is visibility issue - what things look like
when they ahve focus
... Becoming increasingly an issue what things look
like...
... It is my critique of this doc that there is no
visual...
<scribe> ACTION: JB to Contact Apple about keyboard operability definitions [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/10-ua-minutes.html#action01]
AC: speaking about visual
indication of where the focus is
... Increasingly lost in Vista and other things
... Some windows always appear the same
<AllanJ> for reference: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JanMar/0052.html and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JanMar/0053.html
AC: Similarly when using TAB or
arrows same problem
... These essentially break the keyboard accessibility
<AllanJ> +q visual indicators in content
<AllanJ> JR: visual indicators of what you can press, vs focus indicators (have a section on that)
JB: are when entering GUI^2 phase?
oops was JB
AC: Not getting more complex,
just that keyboard access is getting harder
... I'm having lots of problems with keyboard nav in Vista
JA: Another focus issue is
designers not wanting focus in content...
... Because firefox has finally implemented CSS focus
selector
... But authors are turning it off because they don't like the
look of it
... But would like to focus on chrome first
AC: What's your definition of Chrome?
JA: Chrome is the specific UI of the application - all the stuff not in the content display.
AC: So its the stuff that contains the content?
SH: There are some
overlap...icons in TABs...
... Not a clear line....
<AllanJ> SH: think of a picture, chrome is the frame, content is the picture
<AllanJ> JB: how widely is term used
JB: How widely used is "chrome"?
JR: Used in IBM
SH: And also in MNicrosoft
... Is nice to have short handle for this stuff
JA: We were calling it the appliction user interface
AC: As long as its clear
JB: But "appliction user interface" seems more clear to more people
JA: Back to visual indicator
part
... In chrome
... What kind of indicators do we need where
... In order to use Direct commands
... Can get really complicated
JR: Some proposed text:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008AprJun/0008.html
... 4.1.5
JA: Reads...
JB: First concern is that it
doesn't include "sequential"....
... But "sequential" batches 2 things together
JA: How so?
JB: When I look at 4.1.5 and
4.1.6...both just target "Direct"...
... But "sequental" groups two things that need different
tratement....
... TABbing is highly learnable and usable
... But arrowing is different
... First concern is not wording but scope
<AllanJ> JR: different ways of doing keyboard access, open menus - ALT
<AllanJ> ... could use arrows, may be tiring
<AllanJ> ... once in menus, could use letter command to jump to control, may be a direct command
AC: Wanted to support ....
... Very important to minimize physical effort
... e.g. list of two hundred countries...
... Can press "S" but then press it 15 times....
... But sometimes quite type "Sw" to get to swaziland
JB: So "may" be a direct is the problem
<AllanJ> JR: talking about indicators of things that are there. if there is a direct access method it should be shown.
JB: JR is assuming maybe there are some
JR: I completely agree
JB: Maybe we add something
further up in list
... Perhaps it goes in 4.1.1
AC: Wonder if we can be prescriptive on numvber of keystrokes per task?
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JanMar/0052.html
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JanMar/0052.html
(2) Ensure Keyboard Shortcuts: Any user interface "chrome" component
that can receive *user interface focus* using the keyboard has a
keyboard shortcut, unless the *operating environment* prevents this.
AC: Some people give up after 3.
JB: That's why I think thresholds
are difficult....
... Typical studies may not look at these
... May not have looked at specific hand disabilities
AC: But maybe could be liberal
with number
... Then 8 rules out 15 for ex.
JA: Question for Sean...
... Is prescribing number of keystrokes overly
prescriptive
... Then maybe JR was getting at another type of
definition
... Menu items need hotkeys are indicated
... If we can say that it may solve Judy's question
AC: Can it also be expressed as number per hierarchy
SH: Uncomfortable with a
particular number
... I'm also concerned about the very dynamic nature of today;s
interfaces
... And what is a step etc.
JB: Jim you were saying if each step down had an indicator allowing you to get down
Jan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JanMar/0052.html
<Jan> (2) Ensure Keyboard Shortcuts: Any user interface "chrome" component
that can receive *user interface focus* using the keyboard has a
keyboard shortcut, unless the *operating environment* prevents this.
<AllanJ> JR: last clause because of mobile devices.
SH: Not going to work
... OK for static things
... So couldn't be an abosulte rule
AC: And so it may not need to be
a key you know....
... e.g. Page up looping around to last ....
... Persons knowledge of tool is really important...techs for
using controls need to be well known and documented and
consistently documented
JA: Wanted to get back to dynamic
options...
... Couldn't letters be dynamically assigned on the fly
SH: may or may not be
possible...we tend not to do that if we can't put on the same
keys each time...
... Does not allow "muscle memory",...
JA: Some lanugage other than "static menus" and "dynamic menus" ?
SH: Yes tried to come up with something for TEITAC...will sendd
AC: When options are dynamic and
it's not possible to assign keys there might be other ways
...
... Like alphabetical or using arrow keys to go up down level
etc
JB: Understand role of muscle memory
JA: OK please send items to the list
<scribe> ACTION: JA to Review JR's definition of "Ensure Keyboard Shortcuts" and will add in something about static/dynamic [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/10-ua-minutes.html#action02]
JA: Next week
... Need to review ARIA doc and User Agent guidelines
JB: Regrets from me next
week
... Charter discussion needed
... Not sure the TEITAC things will help
SH: I know exactly the msg I'm thinking of
JA: I want this keyboard stuff to
continue on list
... My concern is that ARIA stuff might go 2 wks
... THere is some keyboard stuff in WAI ARIA ...
<AllanJ> ACTION: all to review http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-UAAG20-20080312/#principle-AT-access for next week [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/10-ua-minutes.html#action03]
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.133 of Date: 2008/01/18 18:48:51 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/JA/JB/ Succeeded: s/not look/not have looked/ Found Scribe: Jan Inferring ScribeNick: Jan Default Present: Cantor, Judy, Jan, AllanJ, Sean_Hayes, Sean Present: Cantor Judy Jan AllanJ Sean_Hayes Sean Regrets: Gregory_R. Kelly_F. Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008AprJun/0026.html Got date from IRC log name: 10 Apr 2008 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2008/04/10-ua-minutes.html People with action items: all ja jb WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]