20:00:41 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #waf
20:00:41 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/01/23-waf-irc
20:00:43 <trackbot-ng> RRSAgent, make logs member
20:00:43 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #waf
20:00:45 <trackbot-ng> Zakim, this will be WAF
20:00:45 <Zakim> ok, trackbot-ng; I see IA_WAF()3:00PM scheduled to start now
20:00:46 <trackbot-ng> Meeting: Web Application Formats Working Group Teleconference
20:00:46 <trackbot-ng> Date: 23 January 2008
20:01:00 <tlr> tlr has changed the topic to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-appformats/2008Jan/0223.html
20:01:02 <tlr> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-appformats/2008Jan/0223.html
20:02:30 <Zakim> IA_WAF()3:00PM has now started
20:02:37 <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
20:02:39 <Zakim> +Thomas
20:02:41 <Zakim> +Dave_Orchard
20:02:41 <sicking> sicking has joined #waf
20:03:14 <Zakim> + +1.781.993.aaaa
20:03:22 <ArtB> zakim, aaaa is ArtB
20:03:22 <Zakim> +ArtB; got it
20:03:23 <sicking> Zakim, mozilla is me
20:03:23 <Zakim> +sicking; got it
20:03:25 <ArtB> Chair: ArtB
20:03:32 <ArtB> Meeting: WAF WG Voice Conference
20:04:17 <Art> Art has joined #waf
20:06:00 <anne> i don't have better equipment than last time so i'll prolly have to be muted all the time...
20:06:07 <anne> Zakim, passcode?
20:06:07 <Zakim> the conference code is 9231 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), anne
20:06:57 <Art> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-appformats/2008Jan/0223.html
20:07:04 <Zakim> +anne
20:07:19 <Art> Present: Art, Anne, Dave, Jonas, Thomas
20:07:25 <Art> Scribe: Art
20:07:31 <Art> ScribeNick: ArtB
20:07:36 <Art> Topic: Review Agenda
20:07:53 <anne> Zakim, mute me
20:07:53 <Zakim> anne should now be muted
20:08:17 <tlr> zakim, mute Dave_Orchard
20:08:17 <Zakim> Dave_Orchard should now be muted
20:08:22 <tlr> zakim, unmute Dave_Orchard
20:08:22 <Zakim> Dave_Orchard should no longer be muted
20:08:26 <tlr> zakim, unmute Mozilla
20:08:26 <Zakim> sorry, tlr, I do not know which phone connection belongs to Mozilla
20:08:30 <Art> zakim, mute me
20:08:30 <Zakim> ArtB should now be muted
20:08:31 <tlr> zakim, unmute sicking
20:08:32 <Zakim> sicking was not muted, tlr
20:08:34 <tlr> zakim, mute me
20:08:34 <Zakim> Thomas should now be muted
20:08:36 <tlr> zakim, mute sicking
20:08:36 <Zakim> sicking should now be muted
20:08:44 <tlr> zakim, who is making noise?
20:08:57 <Zakim> tlr, listening for 11 seconds I could not identify any sounds
20:09:06 <tlr> zakim, unmute art
20:09:06 <Zakim> ArtB should no longer be muted
20:09:11 <tlr> zakim, unmute thomas
20:09:11 <Zakim> Thomas should no longer be muted
20:09:18 <tlr> zakim, who is muted?
20:09:18 <Zakim> I see sicking, anne muted
20:09:20 <sicking> I am, but muted
20:09:24 <tlr> zakim, unmute sicking
20:09:24 <Zakim> sicking should no longer be muted
20:09:26 <tlr> zakim, unmute anne
20:09:26 <Zakim> anne should no longer be muted
20:09:28 <tlr> zakim, mute thomas
20:09:28 <Zakim> Thomas should now be muted
20:09:57 <tlr> I'm muted, folks, so can't be me if the noise is still there
20:10:02 <Art> AB: propose adding the P3P suggestion raised by Mark to the agenda
20:10:04 <anne> it's no longer here
20:10:08 <tlr> oh
20:10:08 <Art> AB: is that OK?
20:10:09 <anne> because you're muted :)
20:10:10 <tlr> I hear it quite well
20:10:12 <tlr> *argh*
20:10:26 <Art> AB: it would be the last part of the meeting ~10 mins or so
20:10:32 <anne> (there is some other noise to though)
20:10:32 <Art> AB: any objections
20:10:43 <Art> JS: OK with me
20:11:04 <Art> [Chair notes noise probs has caused most people to mute ...]
20:11:35 <Art> Topic: Requirements
20:12:03 <Art> AB: thanks for submitting the input of requirements Jonas
20:12:17 <Zakim> -Thomas
20:12:24 <Art> AB: since then we've comments from Art, Jon, Thomas, probably others regarding those reqs
20:12:36 <tlr_> tlr_ has joined #waf
20:13:29 <tlr_> zakim, call thomas-skype
20:13:29 <Zakim> ok, tlr_; the call is being made
20:13:31 <tlr_> sorry...
20:13:31 <Zakim> +Thomas
20:13:33 <tlr_> zakim, call thomas-skype
20:13:33 <Zakim> ok, tlr_; the call is being made
20:13:35 <Zakim> +Thomas.a
20:13:54 <tlr_> zakim, who is on the phone?
20:13:54 <Zakim> On the phone I see sicking, Dave_Orchard, ArtB, anne, Thomas, Thomas.a (muted)
20:14:01 <tlr_> zakim, drop Thomas.a
20:14:01 <Zakim> Thomas.a is being disconnected
20:14:02 <Zakim> -Thomas.a
20:15:33 <Art> AB: open the floor to any major reqs related issues people want to discuss
20:15:53 <Art> DO: want to raise the server-side versus client-side PEP
20:16:22 <Art> ... my related e-mail gave my position
20:16:29 <Art> ... don't think we have consensus on this
20:16:34 <Art> ... within the WG
20:16:50 <Art> ... but I haven't seen Thomas' latest e-mail
20:17:13 <tlr> q+
20:17:17 <sicking> q+
20:17:17 <Art> ... there has been lots of discussion
20:17:34 <Art> ... some people in the WG feel strongly about it
20:17:59 <Art> ... I don't think we should close this issue
20:18:08 <Art> ... likely to be a formal objection
20:18:20 <Art> ... think we need to try to get to consensus
20:18:39 <Art> ... I've been dismayed by some of the comments
20:19:07 <Art> ... For example "take it to another WG"
20:20:21 <Zakim> -anne
20:20:27 <Art> TR: may make sense to talk about the reqs in the context of the Issues
20:20:44 <anne> Zakim, passcode?
20:20:44 <Zakim> the conference code is 9231 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), anne
20:21:02 <Art> Topic: ISSUE #20 - location of the PEP
20:21:10 <Zakim> +anne
20:21:59 <tlr> q?
20:22:00 <Art> AvK: what is the counter-proposal?
20:22:10 <Art> ... how do you not involve the client?
20:22:22 <sicking> Zakim, who is making noice
20:22:22 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is making noice', sicking
20:22:27 <sicking> Zakim, who is making noise
20:22:27 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is making noise', sicking
20:22:29 <tlr> zakim, mute me
20:22:29 <Zakim> sorry, tlr, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
20:22:34 <Art> ... I've raised these questions on the mail list but haven't gotten any response
20:22:45 <tlr> zakim, I am thomas
20:22:45 <Zakim> ok, tlr, I now associate you with Thomas
20:22:47 <tlr> zakim, mute me
20:22:47 <Zakim> Thomas should now be muted
20:22:47 <Art> DO: I defer to Tyler and other security folks
20:22:53 <sicking> zakim, who is making noise?
20:23:03 <Zakim> sicking, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: sicking (5%), Dave_Orchard (30%), ArtB (4%), anne (29%)
20:23:10 <tlr> zakim, unmute me
20:23:10 <Zakim> Thomas should no longer be muted
20:23:37 <sicking> anne, you are causing echo
20:23:41 <tlr> q?
20:23:46 <anne> Zakim, mute me
20:23:46 <Zakim> anne should now be muted
20:23:51 <Art> AB: I thought Anne's quest for an alternate proposal was to the whole community not just to Dave
20:24:01 <Art> AvK: yes, that's correct
20:24:19 <Art> TR: I think we should first look at the reqs
20:25:34 <tlr> zakim, call thomas-home
20:25:34 <Zakim> ok, tlr; the call is being made
20:25:36 <Zakim> +Thomas
20:25:38 <Zakim> -Dave_Orchard
20:25:57 <Zakim> -Thomas
20:25:59 <Zakim> -anne
20:26:00 <anne> Zakim, who is making noise?
20:26:11 <Zakim> anne, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ArtB (9%)
20:27:08 <tlr> dave?
20:27:09 <anne> whoa
20:27:10 <tlr> anne?
20:27:14 <anne> Zakim, passcode?
20:27:14 <Zakim> the conference code is 9231 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), anne
20:28:30 <Zakim> +anne
20:28:37 <tlr> dave?
20:28:43 <tlr> want to rejoin?
20:29:47 <Art> AvK: did anyone make a concrete proposal?
20:29:58 <Art> TR: Mark and Tyler both made concrete proposals
20:30:30 <Art> JS: we certainly put more of the enforcement in the client
20:32:23 <Art> TR: one of Mark's proposals should be workable
20:32:58 <tlr> http://www.w3.org/mid/B8F607CD-811A-44DF-BE58-314C8BB9CAE3@yahoo-inc.com
20:33:13 <Art> TR: but it doesn't work with legacy servers
20:33:26 <Art> JS: I don't see any way of doing this and still meeting req #4
20:33:46 <Art> TR: good point
20:34:43 <Art> ... if you wanted to do enforcement on the server side would require a step where client asks the server if it understands the protocol
20:34:57 <Art> ... if the server does, then the details could be moved to the server
20:35:13 <Art> ... but have to be careful not to break existing services
20:35:25 <Art> ... policy lang doesn't have to travel over the wire
20:36:02 <Art> AvK: that makes GET requests more complicated
20:36:12 <Art> ... have to know if server is capable of replying
20:36:21 <Art> ... makes caching on the server harder
20:38:34 <Art> JS: I think we need a concrete proposal
20:38:47 <Art> ... including the attacks it addresses
20:39:17 <Art> AvK: hard to comment on the other proposal when it isn't real concreate
20:39:36 <Art> TR: given DO dropped off I think we don't have critical mass to continue this discussion
20:39:40 <Art> JS: I agree
20:39:44 <tlr> tlr has joined #waf
20:40:13 <Art> AB: would like to understand the requirements angle
20:40:58 <Art> TR: would need some type of discovery mechanism
20:41:09 <Zakim> +Dave_Orchard
20:41:35 <Art> ... need to understand the complexity of the server versus the client
20:42:16 <Art> ... i.e. where to put the complexity
20:42:53 <Art> JS: I don't see it as client side PEP vs. server side PEP because there will need to be policy enforcement on both
20:42:58 <Art> TR: I agree
20:43:12 <Art> JS: we need 1) coutner proposal; 2) what are the problems to solve
20:43:30 <Art> TR: I can create some counter proposals
20:43:37 <Art> AB: that would be good
20:44:10 <Art> TR: I can come up with 1 or 2 straw man proposals
20:44:39 <Art> DO: what about the proposals that Tyler proposed
20:45:45 <Art> TR: the question isn't where the PEP resides but how to split the complexity betweent the client and server. The client will not be eliminated from the decision, regardless of the architecture.
20:46:30 <Art> ... The only way to eliminate the client completely is to mint a new HTTP method
20:46:51 <Art> ... But that would create a huge deployment problem.
20:47:05 <Art> ... There will always be some policy enforcement on the client.
20:48:58 <Art> ... Can only entirely move the decision to the server if the client is certain the server can do 100% of the policy decision.
20:49:09 <Art> [Scribe missed some details ...]
20:49:16 <Art> JS: please send this to the mail list
20:49:54 <Art> ACTION: Thomas submit proposal to the mail list regarding the policy decision split and complexity
20:49:54 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-154 - Submit proposal to the mail list regarding the policy decision split and complexity [on Thomas Roessler - due 2008-01-30].
20:50:31 <Art> JS: we must understand the problems that will be solved by the other proposal
20:50:34 <Art> TR: agree
20:50:41 <Art> AB: agree
20:51:47 <Art> ACTION: Jonas send a request for comments regarding the policy decision questions and issues
20:51:47 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-155 - Send a request for comments regarding the policy decision questions and issues [on Jonas Sicking - due 2008-01-30].
20:53:10 <Art> Topic: Requirements
20:53:20 <tlr> zakim, call thomas-781
20:53:20 <Zakim> ok, tlr; the call is being made
20:53:22 <Zakim> +Thomas
20:53:35 <Zakim> -Thomas
20:54:06 <Art> AB: what do we want to discuss?
20:54:13 <Art> AvK: prefer to discuss on the mail list
20:54:26 <Art> JS: I agree
20:55:27 <Art> DO: think we need to discuss requirements
20:55:42 <Art> TR: would prefer requirement discussion on the phone
20:55:55 <tlr> chair's call, I gues
20:57:34 <Art> DO: think it's hard to follow some of the detailed discussions related to requirements
21:01:52 <Art> AB: what is your plan Anne to address the comments on reqs?
21:02:01 <Art> AvK: I will respond on the mail list
21:02:25 <Art> AvK: I don't think we should delay the work to get everything documented
21:02:35 <Art> DO: but we don't have agreement with what is documented
21:02:47 <Art> AvK: if someone disagrees, they need to submit comments
21:02:56 <Art> TR: we don't have agreements
21:03:25 <Art> ... we need to go through the requirements and discuss them
21:04:26 <Art> Topic: Requirement #1
21:05:53 <Art> AB: who is going to drive this?
21:06:01 <Art> JS: I responded to Jon just now
21:07:07 <Art> TR: I don't have much to add to beyond what I said on the mail list
21:08:04 <Art> ... may be able to merge 13 with #1.d
21:09:06 <Art> JS: It would be good if comments included proposed changes
21:12:57 <Art> AB: any other questions about TR's comments?
21:13:02 <Art> AvK: I haven't read it yet
21:13:06 <Art> JS: me neither
21:13:38 <Art> AvK: could someone give me some ABNF help?
21:13:43 <Art> DO: I can help.
21:13:50 <Art> AvK: thanks!
21:15:01 <Art> AvK: it would be good if there was a proposal for specific reqs before the call.
21:15:12 <Art> AB: any issues with that?
21:15:14 <Art> JS: no
21:15:23 <Art> AB: sounds reasonable to me
21:16:13 <Art> TR: Art should solicit input on specific reqs and add them to the agenda
21:16:21 <Art> AB: I'm OK with that
21:17:14 <Art> DO: one thing we can do is to pick a couple of issues that we want to get closure and give ~ 1 week notice.
21:17:20 <Art> AB: good idea Dave
21:18:31 <tlr_> tlr_ has joined #waf
21:19:02 <Art> Topic: Fixed URI
21:19:21 <Art> AB: Mark's comments about needing to look at P3P 
21:19:46 <Art> AB: what is the issue?
21:20:37 <Art> AvK: I think we want per resource 
21:21:19 <Art> JS: not clear if P3P was being suggested as something we should use or something we should look at
21:21:39 <Art> ... can put the policy file in a header
21:22:04 <dorchard> dorchard has joined #waf
21:23:04 <tlr_> P3P use case is slightly different. The policy is retrieved in a special safe zone.
21:23:12 <Art> JS: I think Mark was talking about a mechanismm to associate a policy and a URI
21:23:13 <tlr_> (don't remember the spec's precise name for that)
21:23:19 <tlr_> +1 to JS actually
21:23:58 <Art> AB: Mark suggested this should be added to the Issue List. 
21:24:03 <Art> ... What do you think?
21:24:13 <Art> AvK: too vague to know if that is true
21:24:26 <Art> JS: agree I'm not sure what he's looking for
21:24:48 <Art> TR: think he is concerened about scalability (e.g. Akami)
21:25:05 <Art> AvK: we need to ask for clarification
21:25:30 <Art> ACTION: Anne seek clarification from Mark about the P3P-related issue
21:25:30 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-156 - Seek clarification from Mark about the P3P-related issue [on Anne van Kesteren - due 2008-01-30].
21:27:43 <Zakim> -Dave_Orchard
21:28:32 <Art> AvK: I think we need a plan on how to move forward
21:28:51 <Art> ... e.g. new questions all the time
21:30:45 <Art> AB: I'm open to suggestions on how to move forward
21:30:56 <Art> AvK: I think the design is good 
21:31:04 <Art> ... but there is a call for more rationale
21:31:36 <tlr_> q+
21:32:02 <Art> ... dont' want to keep discussing reqs but prefer to talk about technical issues
21:33:28 <tlr_> q-
21:33:43 <sicking> -q
21:33:48 <tlr_> q- tlr
21:35:11 <Art> Topic: Schedules
21:35:37 <dorchard> I remain convinced that the design is reflective of an implied set of requirements, of which there is not consensus.
21:35:41 <Art> TR: regarding Voice Confs, I have this slot on the 30th
21:35:54 <Art> ... will need to send regrets on the week of Feb 6
21:36:07 <Art> ... OK on Feb 13
21:36:23 <Art> ... but then it gets more difficult
21:37:03 <Art> JS: I can reiterate we are running out of time 
21:37:13 <Art> ... I am nervous about getting this in FF3
21:38:15 <Art> AB: I propose we plan to have a call next week
21:39:08 <Art> TR: are we expecting to stick to this timeslot for the forseeable future?
21:39:20 <Art> AvK: this time is good
21:39:24 <Art> JS: me too
21:39:27 <Art> AB: me too
21:40:21 <Art> AB: meeting adjourned
21:40:22 <Zakim> -anne
21:40:24 <Zakim> -sicking
21:40:27 <Zakim> -Thomas
21:40:29 <Art> rrsagent, make log public
21:40:35 <Art> rrsagent, make minutes
21:40:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/01/23-waf-minutes.html Art
21:42:08 <Art> ScribeNick: Art
21:42:14 <Art> rrsagent, make minutes
21:42:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/01/23-waf-minutes.html Art
21:43:03 <Zakim> -ArtB
21:43:05 <Zakim> IA_WAF()3:00PM has ended
21:43:06 <Zakim> Attendees were Thomas, Dave_Orchard, +1.781.993.aaaa, ArtB, sicking, anne, Thomas.a
21:44:35 <shepazu> shepazu has joined #waf
21:45:30 <tlr_> trackbot-ng, close ACTION-156
21:45:30 <trackbot-ng> ACTION-156 Seek clarification from Mark about the P3P-related issue closed
21:45:36 <tlr_> if that's what you meant
21:48:45 <tlr> tlr has joined #waf
21:49:21 <anne> well, i suppose
21:49:31 <anne> i meant more that i e-mailed Mark :)
21:49:54 <shepazu> anne, ping
21:50:02 <anne> pong
21:50:17 <shepazu> are you interested in attending the D3E telcons?
21:50:24 <tlr> trackbpt-ng, reopen ACTION-156
21:50:32 <shepazu> if so, does Monday or Friday work better for you?
21:50:59 <anne> monday would work
21:51:04 <anne> same time
21:51:18 <shepazu> ok, would you propose that to the WG?
21:51:22 <shepazu> thanks
21:51:51 <shepazu> I'm glad you said Monday... Friday would be bad for most people
21:52:23 <Art> rrsagent, bye
21:52:23 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/23-waf-actions.rdf :
21:52:23 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Thomas submit proposal to the mail list regarding the policy decision split and complexity [1]
21:52:23 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/23-waf-irc#T20-49-54
21:52:23 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Jonas send a request for comments regarding the policy decision questions and issues [2]
21:52:23 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/23-waf-irc#T20-51-47
21:52:23 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Anne seek clarification from Mark about the P3P-related issue [3]
21:52:23 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/23-waf-irc#T21-25-30