IRC log of awwsw on 2008-01-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:59:42 [RRSAgent]
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13:59:42 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/01/08-awwsw-irc
14:00:02 [dbooth]
zakim, this will be awwsw
14:00:02 [Zakim]
ok, dbooth; I see TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM scheduled to start now
14:00:26 [Zakim]
TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM has now started
14:00:33 [Zakim]
+alanr
14:00:52 [jar]
thanks
14:01:35 [Zakim]
+DBooth
14:02:02 [jar]
i started a page http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswAnalysis of first principles analysis... consensus i hope
14:02:32 [Zakim]
+TimBL
14:02:54 [Zakim]
+Noah_Mendelsohn
14:02:58 [noah]
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14:03:00 [jar]
zakim, +1 617 253-8825 is jar
14:03:00 [Zakim]
I don't understand '+1 617 253-8825 is jar', jar
14:03:04 [noah]
zakim, who is here?
14:03:04 [Zakim]
On the phone I see alanr, DBooth, TimBL, Noah_Mendelsohn
14:03:07 [Zakim]
On IRC I see noah, RRSAgent, Zakim, dbooth, jar, trackbot-ng
14:06:15 [timbl]
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14:06:20 [Stuart]
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14:06:36 [jar]
http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswTopicsBrainstormPage
14:07:21 [Zakim]
+??P22
14:07:45 [Stuart]
zakim, ??P22 is me?
14:07:45 [Zakim]
+me?; got it
14:08:07 [Stuart]
zakim, ??P22 is Stuart
14:08:07 [Zakim]
I already had ??P22 as me?, Stuart
14:08:08 [Zakim]
+Alan.a
14:08:19 [dbooth]
zakim, alanr is really jar
14:08:19 [Zakim]
+jar; got it
14:08:40 [Stuart]
zakim, ?me is really Stuart
14:08:40 [Zakim]
sorry, Stuart, I do not recognize a party named '?me'
14:09:08 [timbl]
http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswAnalysis
14:09:13 [dbooth]
zakim, me? is really Stuart
14:09:13 [Zakim]
+Stuart; got it
14:09:44 [jar]
http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswAnalysis
14:09:49 [alanr]
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14:10:12 [jar]
Crude beginning on a consensus document http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswAnalysis
14:11:09 [alanr]
scribe:alanr
14:11:20 [dbooth]
Scribe: alanr
14:13:29 [alanr]
tim: can't define 200 exactly, in english - would be a mistake. Take a tutorial. Define in terms of how interactions go in protocols
14:13:41 [alanr]
tim: Define what information resource is, is a trap
14:14:07 [alanr]
tim: What's useful is the content of the message (?)
14:14:38 [alanr]
what happens when you get a 302 then a xxx and then a xxx, what does that mean?
14:14:39 [dbooth]
I like the idea of being able to explain what it means when you get a 303 followed by a 302 followed by a 200.
14:15:17 [alanr]
tim: tabulator does generate triples and does use them
14:15:41 [timbl]
Tim: What is usefulis the semantc s of th messag e-- eg wht a 200 mean in terms of what he body related to the abstract document.
14:16:14 [dbooth]
q+ to say that key to me is putting proposed RDF on the table of what these things mean
14:16:20 [alanr]
jonathan: address tabulator but generalize
14:16:56 [alanr]
and what's a document?
14:17:12 [alanr]
Jonathan: didn't see what 200 concluded
14:17:35 [Stuart]
methinks.. something with a document oriented interface :-)
14:17:45 [alanr]
Tim: concludes its a document, and opens up a document view. For image/ opens an image view
14:18:08 [alanr]
tim 303: won't give you an option of looking at the document
14:18:28 [alanr]
tim: 302 generates, as part of document containing the link, gives warning
14:18:32 [Stuart]
eg. a rc robot arm could be controlled via an exchange of 'document-like' messages.
14:18:53 [noah]
q+ to ask tim about 200
14:18:56 [alanr]
q+ stuart
14:19:09 [alanr]
q?
14:19:10 [dbooth]
ack dbooth
14:19:10 [Zakim]
dbooth, you wanted to say that key to me is putting proposed RDF on the table of what these things mean
14:20:09 [Stuart]
can the URI 'identify' a robot arm rather than a document 'implied' but the message exchange.
14:21:41 [timbl]
{ ?x http:resresentation ?r } ..
14:21:45 [alanr]
jonathan: Are the tabulators rule in one place?
14:21:46 [timbl]
http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2005/ajar/ajaw/js/rdf/sources.js
14:22:03 [timbl]
FWIW the code in wwhich tabulator has hard coded inference
14:22:36 [timbl]
if (xhr.status-0 == 200) {
14:22:36 [timbl]
addType(tabulator.ns.link('Document'));
14:24:03 [alanr]
noah: asking about image/
14:24:37 [dbooth]
noah: If I have a resource that I know is a text doc, but for whatever reason I have a photographed copy of the page. This seems to imply that the media type bounds the nature of the document to the image.
14:24:50 [dbooth]
timbl: Yes, that's not quite right, but it's a good hack.
14:24:55 [jar]
noah: say i have a resource, a text resource, that i have as an image of a page...?
14:25:06 [timbl]
Note addType pecolates back up through the 301 an 302 and adds thr typre s to them too
14:25:34 [timbl]
The conclusion that something 'is' an image from hte image/* contenttype is a hack, not architecturally solid.
14:25:48 [dbooth]
noah: We should say that the nature of the media type does not further bound the nature of the resource.
14:26:07 [jar]
dbooth, you type faster than i do
14:26:14 [timbl]
link:Document owl:disjointWith foaf:Person.
14:26:45 [Stuart]
q?
14:26:50 [Stuart]
ack noah
14:26:50 [Zakim]
noah, you wanted to ask tim about 200
14:27:06 [jar]
ack noah
14:27:15 [jar]
ack stuart
14:27:43 [alanr]
q+ alan to ask: httprange-14 says "If an "http" resource responds to a GET request" - does this tell us what a resource is - it can "respond"
14:28:26 [timbl]
q+ to suggest some more uses for having the classes allocated to things.
14:30:00 [jar]
stuart: robot arm responding with 200s reporting position, is the robot arm a document? (tabulator says yes)
14:30:09 [dbooth]
"What you want to say about it?" is very much like "what inferences do we want to make?"
14:30:45 [jar]
noah: this is just httprange-14
14:30:52 [jar]
ack alan
14:30:52 [Zakim]
alan, you wanted to ask: httprange-14 says "If an "http" resource responds to a GET request" - does this tell us what a resource is - it can "respond"
14:31:00 [jar]
alan is next pls
14:31:01 [dbooth]
My opinion: To be kosher, the robot URI that returns 200 would be the URI of the HTTP *interface* of the robot.
14:31:31 [jar]
jar: let's talk about 200 where we already believe the thing is a document, not other cases, for now
14:31:34 [alanr]
is a form that lets you tweak a robot, a document?
14:31:48 [dbooth]
I agree with starting with "What inferences do we want to make?", and I want to see RDF on the table.
14:32:18 [Stuart]
q?
14:33:55 [alanr]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html#httpRange-14
14:33:59 [jar]
alanr: httprange-14 is unclear - what was the intent re the language? is it the really the resource that responds?
14:34:08 [alanr]
agreed on 15 Jun 2005
14:34:12 [alanr]
agreed on 15 Jun 2005
14:34:15 [alanr]
The TAG provides advice to the community that they may mint "http" URIs for any resource provided that they follow this simple rule for the sake of removing ambiguity:
14:34:16 [alanr]
* If an "http" resource responds to a GET request with a 2xx response, then the resource identified by that URI is an information resource;
14:34:18 [alanr]
* If an "http" resource responds to a GET request with a 303 (See Other) response, then the resource identified by that URI could be any resource;
14:34:19 [alanr]
* If an "http" resource responds to a GET request with a 4xx (error) response, then the nature of the resource is unknown.
14:35:07 [jar]
timbl: it's not cleanly put. should say ... something about the server ...
14:35:31 [jar]
alanr: requests some action on this language
14:35:43 [dbooth]
Should be something like "If the HTTP status code resulting from a GET request on a URI is 2xx . . . "
14:35:45 [jar]
on the part of the tag. timbl: ok
14:36:02 [Stuart]
FWIW... I prefer to think of HTTP requests as questions being asked of Web Infrastructure and responses as being generated by web infrastructure.
14:36:55 [jar]
http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswHome
14:37:15 [Stuart]
not all requests make it to the web server (caches may respond instead);
14:38:33 [dbooth]
I want our main work product to be RDF and inference rules.
14:38:54 [dbooth]
I think other wording improvements may fall out from that.
14:40:33 [dbooth]
I have put RDF on the table, and will continue to do so. I haven't looked specifically at what tabulator does.
14:40:55 [alanr]
http://esw.w3.org/topic/ErrataHttpRange14
14:41:18 [jar]
jar: asking timbl what best process is for getting tabulator's inferences recorded in the wiki. timbl short on time
14:41:24 [alanr]
<pre>
14:41:29 [jar]
s/inferences/inference rules/
14:42:24 [jar]
timbl: is putting them in now
14:42:30 [jar]
?
14:44:11 [timbl]
http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswAnalysis
14:44:26 [dbooth]
jar: Some agents may want to be conservative in the inferences that they make, in case the server is hostile, while others may more liberal, like tabulator.
14:45:25 [jar]
alanr: jar is talking about default reasoning, perhaps. aggressive inferences are deaults
14:45:31 [dbooth]
alanr: You can have a logic in which the aggressive things are assumptions based on getting extra info.
14:47:07 [jar]
httprange-14 boundary case: the number 3. not a boundary case: a person.
14:48:26 [jar]
alanr: wants to be clear: are you manipulating the form or manipulating the robot? ambiguous -
14:48:52 [Zakim]
-Alan.a
14:48:52 [jar]
timbl: a form is a just like document
14:49:22 [Stuart]
zakim, who is here
14:49:22 [Zakim]
Stuart, you need to end that query with '?'
14:49:24 [Stuart]
zakim, who is here?
14:49:25 [Zakim]
On the phone I see jar, DBooth, TimBL, Noah_Mendelsohn, Stuart
14:49:28 [Zakim]
On IRC I see alanr, Stuart, timbl, noah, RRSAgent, Zakim, dbooth, jar, trackbot-ng
14:49:35 [alanr]
just dropped. will call back
14:49:49 [alanr]
yes
14:49:57 [Zakim]
+Alan_Ruttenberg
14:50:26 [jar]
noah, i can't do justice to what you're saying
14:51:13 [jar]
tim wants to say "document" instead of "information resource", noah doesn't
14:51:34 [jar]
q?
14:51:44 [jar]
ack timbl
14:51:44 [Zakim]
timbl, you wanted to suggest some more uses for having the classes allocated to things.
14:52:10 [alanr]
tim: having disjoint classes gives teeth to this
14:52:19 [jar]
timbl: disjoint classes give teeth to the effort
14:52:24 [jar]
oops
14:53:52 [jar]
timbl: tabulator is becoming an editor - disjoint classes will matter
14:53:55 [alanr]
tim: tabulator is an editor now. The more you know about this the thing the better the editor can help you
14:53:57 [dbooth]
i have to drop off the phone now, but i'm strongly in favor of: 1. specific use cases; and 2. Discussing some specific RDF / rules. I think these will best help us forward.
14:54:13 [Zakim]
-DBooth
14:54:57 [alanr]
+1 to warnings
14:55:38 [Stuart]
q+
14:57:46 [jar]
stuart: can we do some backward chaining - start with inferences one would *like* to be able to do
14:58:02 [dbooth]
I would like us to discuss the RDF / rules I've drafted next week.
14:58:12 [dbooth]
s/next week/next meeting/
14:58:33 [jar]
timbl: alan threw down the gauntlet - how do i know whether a web server has lied?
14:58:36 [dbooth]
Though I may have a better version by then. :)
14:59:17 [jar]
stuart doesn't believe this is a small enough question
15:00:15 [jar]
alanr: e.g. "this resource's responses will always be images" - a non-image response would be wrong
15:00:43 [Zakim]
-Stuart
15:00:52 [Zakim]
-Alan_Ruttenberg
15:00:53 [Zakim]
-Noah_Mendelsohn
15:01:31 [timbl]
Narrow escape from the Modelling Time rathole, a fine hole of great, and not uninteresting to explore.
15:01:32 [alanr]
so, combination of statements about a resource, including, but not limited to http responses, should be able to say something wrong
15:01:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/01/08-awwsw-minutes.html alanr
15:01:58 [alanr]
rrsagent, set log world-readable
15:02:08 [Zakim]
-jar
15:02:50 [jar]
rrsagent, make logs public
15:04:32 [dbooth]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:04:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/01/08-awwsw-minutes.html dbooth
15:05:49 [jar]
ok, now how do minutes get edited? and by whom?
15:06:18 [dbooth]
jar, download them, edit them, and email them. :)
15:06:29 [dbooth]
there are other ways too
15:06:33 [jar]
ah.
15:08:11 [dbooth]
to edit minutes on the same day, i often just do s/// and i/// commands and then "rrsagent, draft minutes" again until it looks good enough.
15:23:30 [noah]
FWIW, I use my IRC client to create a local log of the IRC session. I download David's perl script from http://dev.w3.org/2002/scribe/ . I then edit the log with emacs, and use the perl script to format, iterating until I've got about what I want. Then, usually, I do a bit of editing on the final HTML to get out a few things that the script puts in. For me, that's faster and more flexible
15:23:37 [noah]
than using s///, etc.
15:23:58 [noah]
Anyway, it seems that there's lots of differing personal preference in this area. good luck
15:24:07 [noah]
gotta go, bye
15:35:02 [Zakim]
disconnecting the lone participant, TimBL, in TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM
15:35:09 [Zakim]
TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM has ended
15:35:14 [Zakim]
Attendees were DBooth, TimBL, Noah_Mendelsohn, Alan, jar, Stuart, Alan_Ruttenberg
16:59:22 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #awwsw