<sandro> Guest: Andy Seaborn, http://www.hpl.hp.com/people/andy_seaborne/
<sandro> Guest: Pat Hayes, http://www.ihmc.us/users/phayes/
<sandro> Guest: Eric Prud'hommeaux, http://www.w3.org/People/Eric/
<sandro> Chair: AlanR
13:37:43 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-owl-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-owl-irc ←
13:38:28 <sandro> note-to-scribe --- we'll have to manually separate the IRC log of this meeting from that of the OWL telecon later today.
Sandro Hawke: note-to-scribe --- we'll have to manually separate the IRC log of this meeting from that of the OWL telecon later today. ←
13:51:49 <baojie> is the call-in number 1.617.761.6200 (as in usual telcon)?
(No events recorded for 13 minutes)
Jie Bao: is the call-in number 1.617.761.6200 (as in usual telcon)? ←
13:51:54 <sandro> yes
Sandro Hawke: yes ←
13:51:57 <baojie> thanks
13:53:00 <ericP> Zakim, please dial ericP-office
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, please dial ericP-office ←
13:53:00 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ericP; the call is being made ←
13:53:01 <Zakim> Team_(owl)13:37Z has now started
Zakim IRC Bot: Team_(owl)13:37Z has now started ←
13:53:02 <Zakim> +EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP ←
13:57:59 <Zakim> +??P3
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P3 ←
13:58:10 <bmotik> Zakim, ??p3 is me
Boris Motik: Zakim, ??p3 is me ←
13:58:10 <Zakim> +bmotik; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +bmotik; got it ←
13:59:14 <Zakim> +alanr
Zakim IRC Bot: +alanr ←
13:59:58 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me
Boris Motik: Zakim, mute me ←
13:59:58 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bmotik should now be muted ←
14:00:01 <alanr> alanr has changed the topic to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-text/2009AprJun/0184.html
Alan Ruttenberg: alanr has changed the topic to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-text/2009AprJun/0184.html ←
14:00:02 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider
Zakim IRC Bot: +Peter_Patel-Schneider ←
14:00:19 <alanr> zakim, who is here?
Alan Ruttenberg: zakim, who is here? ←
14:00:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see EricP, bmotik (muted), alanr, Peter_Patel-Schneider
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see EricP, bmotik (muted), alanr, Peter_Patel-Schneider ←
14:00:21 <Zakim> On IRC I see pfps, alanr, ericP, bmotik, baojie, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS, sandro, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see pfps, alanr, ericP, bmotik, baojie, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS, sandro, trackbot ←
14:00:32 <Zakim> + +1.978.805.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.978.805.aaaa ←
14:00:40 <baojie> Zakim, aaaa is baojie
Jie Bao: Zakim, aaaa is baojie ←
14:00:40 <Zakim> +baojie; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +baojie; got it ←
14:00:42 <Zakim> +Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro ←
14:01:35 <Zakim> +??P37
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P37 ←
14:01:39 <AndyS> zakim, ??P37 is me
Andy Seaborn: zakim, ??P37 is me ←
14:01:39 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it ←
14:01:40 <bmotik> Just to let everybody know: I'll need to shoot off in 45 minutes.
Boris Motik: Just to let everybody know: I'll need to shoot off in 45 minutes. ←
14:01:54 <bmotik> Something came up unexpectedly at 5pm CET
Boris Motik: Something came up unexpectedly at 5pm CET ←
14:01:58 <bmotik> Zakim, unmute me
Boris Motik: Zakim, unmute me ←
14:01:58 <Zakim> bmotik should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bmotik should no longer be muted ←
14:02:07 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me
Boris Motik: Zakim, mute me ←
14:02:08 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bmotik should now be muted ←
14:02:31 <ericP> Zakim, who is here?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, who is here? ←
14:02:31 <Zakim> On the phone I see EricP, bmotik (muted), alanr, Peter_Patel-Schneider, baojie, Sandro, AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see EricP, bmotik (muted), alanr, Peter_Patel-Schneider, baojie, Sandro, AndyS ←
14:02:33 <AndyS> What's the call length? I have a cut off of +1hr
Andy Seaborn: What's the call length? I have a cut off of +1hr ←
14:02:34 <Zakim> On IRC I see pfps, alanr, ericP, bmotik, baojie, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS, sandro, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see pfps, alanr, ericP, bmotik, baojie, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS, sandro, trackbot ←
14:02:37 <sandro> 1hr
Sandro Hawke: 1hr ←
14:02:42 <ericP> scribenick: ericP
(Scribe set to Eric Prud'hommeaux)
14:03:10 <ericP> topic: set of language tags
14:03:04 <sandro> 1. set of language tags
Sandro Hawke: 1. set of language tags ←
14:03:04 <alanr> PROPOSED: We understand that when RDF Concepts referred to RFC
Alan Ruttenberg: PROPOSED: We understand that when RDF Concepts referred to RFC ←
14:03:05 <alanr> 3066 it really meanted "RFC 3066 or its successor" (which is
Alan Ruttenberg: 3066 it really meanted "RFC 3066 or its successor" (which is ←
14:03:05 <alanr> currently BCP-47). We'll add a note to this effect to this spec.
Alan Ruttenberg: currently BCP-47). We'll add a note to this effect to this spec. ←
14:03:13 <alanr> +1
Alan Ruttenberg: +1 ←
14:03:19 <baojie> +1
14:03:21 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
14:03:22 <ericP> ericP: +1
Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 ←
14:03:24 <pfps> +1
14:03:27 <bmotik> +1
Boris Motik: +1 ←
14:03:32 <alanr> RESOLVED: We understand that when RDF Concepts referred to RFC 3066 it really meanted "RFC 3066 or its successor" (which is currently BCP-47). We'll add a note to this effect to this spec.
Alan Ruttenberg: RESOLVED: We understand that when RDF Concepts referred to RFC 3066 it really meanted "RFC 3066 or its successor" (which is currently BCP-47). We'll add a note to this effect to this spec. ←
14:04:16 <ericP> topic: renaming of datatype
14:03:45 <alanr> PROPOSED: The datatype previously known as rdf:text should be called rdf:PlainLiteral
PROPOSED: The datatype previously known as rdf:text should be called rdf:PlainLiteral ←
14:04:07 <ericP> ericP: there is a related i18n comment to DAWG: http://www.w3.org/mid/20070419132419.9ACF74BAD@toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp
Eric Prud'hommeaux: there is a related i18n comment to DAWG: http://www.w3.org/mid/20070419132419.9ACF74BAD@toro.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp ←
14:03:50 <alanr> +1
Alan Ruttenberg: +1 ←
14:03:54 <AndyS> +1
Andy Seaborn: +1 ←
14:03:55 <pfps> +0
14:03:55 <bmotik> +1
Boris Motik: +1 ←
14:03:55 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
14:03:56 <baojie> +1
14:04:17 <ericP> ericP: +1
Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 ←
14:04:23 <pfps> +0, as I don't care about the name
Peter Patel-Schneider: +0, as I don't care about the name ←
14:04:18 <alanr> RESOLVED: The datatype previously known as rdf:text should be called rdf:PlainLiteral
RESOLVED: The datatype previously known as rdf:text should be called rdf:PlainLiteral ←
14:04:31 <ericP> topic: changing title of document
14:04:32 <alanr> PROPOSED: The title will no longer mention i18n. It will be something more like: A Datatype for RDF Plain Literals
PROPOSED: The title will no longer mention i18n. It will be something more like: A Datatype for RDF Plain Literals ←
14:04:44 <sandro> i18n == internationalization
Sandro Hawke: i18n == internationalization ←
14:04:45 <bmotik> +1
Boris Motik: +1 ←
14:04:47 <alanr> +1
Alan Ruttenberg: +1 ←
14:04:50 <ericP> ericP: +1
Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 ←
14:04:50 <AndyS> no opinion
Andy Seaborn: no opinion ←
14:04:51 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
14:05:01 <pfps> +1, "current" name is good
Peter Patel-Schneider: +1, "current" name is good ←
14:05:05 <baojie> +0.75
14:05:06 <alanr> RESOLVED: The title will no longer mention i18n. It will be something more like: A Datatype for RDF Plain Literals
RESOLVED: The title will no longer mention i18n. It will be something more like: A Datatype for RDF Plain Literals ←
14:05:57 <ericP> topic: discussion of i18n
14:05:44 <alanr> PROPOSED: Pending approval from Michael Sperberg-McQueen, we'll remove the 3rd intro paragraph (from LC version). It talks about xml:lang, etc
PROPOSED: Pending approval from Michael Sperberg-McQueen, we'll remove the 3rd intro paragraph (from LC version). It talks about xml:lang, etc ←
14:06:12 <ericP> sandro proposes that the 3rd para in the LC be removed
sandro proposes that the 3rd para in the LC be removed ←
14:07:14 <ericP> sandro: i removed MSM's suggested bidi text from the wiki, but have not heard from MSM
Sandro Hawke: i removed MSM's suggested bidi text from the wiki, but have not heard from MSM ←
14:07:38 <ericP> alanr: this is 'cause we're talking about plain literals, which are defined in another document
Alan Ruttenberg: this is 'cause we're talking about plain literals, which are defined in another document ←
14:08:17 <alanr> PROPOSED: Pending approval from Michael Sperberg-McQueen, we'll remove the 3rd intro paragraph (from LC version). It talks about xml:lang, etc. If he does't approve we're fine with leaving something in the document about this.
PROPOSED: Pending approval from Michael Sperberg-McQueen, we'll remove the 3rd intro paragraph (from LC version). It talks about xml:lang, etc. If he does't approve we're fine with leaving something in the document about this. ←
14:09:05 <sandro> PROPOSED: Pending approval from Michael Sperberg-McQueen, we'll remove the 3rd intro paragraph (from LC version). It talks about xml:lang, etc. If he does't approve we'll keep it, with some reluctance.
PROPOSED: Pending approval from Michael Sperberg-McQueen, we'll remove the 3rd intro paragraph (from LC version). It talks about xml:lang, etc. If he does't approve we'll keep it, with some reluctance. ←
14:09:30 <ericP> ericP: i am reluctant to have i18n text quasi-defining plain literals as it is confusing to have definitions in multile places
Eric Prud'hommeaux: i am reluctant to have i18n text quasi-defining plain literals as it is confusing to have definitions in multile places ←
14:09:19 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
14:09:19 <alanr> +1
Alan Ruttenberg: +1 ←
14:09:24 <Zakim> +IanH
Zakim IRC Bot: +IanH ←
14:09:25 <baojie> +1
14:09:31 <pfps> +1, as this implies that the paragraph is in (for now)
Peter Patel-Schneider: +1, as this implies that the paragraph is in (for now) ←
14:09:33 <ericP> ericP: +1
Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 ←
14:10:08 <sandro> RESOLVED: Pending approval from Michael Sperberg-McQueen, we'll remove the 3rd intro paragraph (from LC version). It talks about xml:lang, etc. If he does't approve we'll keep it, with some reluctance.
RESOLVED: Pending approval from Michael Sperberg-McQueen, we'll remove the 3rd intro paragraph (from LC version). It talks about xml:lang, etc. If he does't approve we'll keep it, with some reluctance. ←
14:10:43 <ericP> topic: discuss new abstract
14:10:58 <ericP> sandro: the current abstract is out of date
Sandro Hawke: the current abstract is out of date ←
14:11:02 <pfps> the current abstract mentions "the dreaded i18n"
Peter Patel-Schneider: the current abstract mentions "the dreaded i18n" ←
14:11:04 <alanr> q?
Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←
14:11:16 <ericP> ... we need a new one which reflects what we settle on
... we need a new one which reflects what we settle on ←
14:11:32 <alanr> PROPOSED: rdf:PlainLiterals will map 1-1 to RDF Plain Literals, so Plain Literals with and without language are both handled by rdf:PlainLiteral.
PROPOSED: rdf:PlainLiterals will map 1-1 to RDF Plain Literals, so Plain Literals with and without language are both handled by rdf:PlainLiteral. ←
14:11:33 <ericP> topic: narrowing datatype to language-tagged literals
14:11:39 <sandro> alanr: we're NOT narrowing this to only handle language-tagged literals.
Alan Ruttenberg: we're NOT narrowing this to only handle language-tagged literals. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:11:57 <bmotik> But this is already so, so I'm confused.
Boris Motik: But this is already so, so I'm confused. ←
14:12:02 <pfps> Huh?
Peter Patel-Schneider: Huh? ←
14:12:17 <ericP> AndyS: not sure how you maintain 1:1 between rdf:PlainLiterals and xsd:strings
Andy Seaborn: not sure how you maintain 1:1 between rdf:PlainLiterals and xsd:strings ←
14:12:38 <ericP> sandro: i'm not proposing a change to pfpf and bmotik's plan
Sandro Hawke: i'm not proposing a change to pfpf and bmotik's plan ←
14:12:59 <ericP> alanr: the 1:1 mapping is in the value space
Alan Ruttenberg: the 1:1 mapping is in the value space ←
14:13:03 <bmotik> The value of each rdf:PlainLiteral literal will match one-to-one to the value of each plain RDF literal
Boris Motik: The value of each rdf:PlainLiteral literal will match one-to-one to the value of each plain RDF literal ←
14:13:25 <ericP> AndyS: i understand now. proposal didn't say that to me
Andy Seaborn: i understand now. proposal didn't say that to me ←
14:13:35 <ericP> sandro: the value space overlaps with xsd:string
Sandro Hawke: the value space overlaps with xsd:string ←
14:14:12 <alanr> PROPOSED: rdf:PlainLiterals will map 1-1 to RDF Plain Literals, so Plain Literals with and without language are both handled by rdf:PlainLiteral.
PROPOSED: rdf:PlainLiterals will map 1-1 to RDF Plain Literals, so Plain Literals with and without language are both handled by rdf:PlainLiteral. ←
14:14:20 <sandro> sandro: see my e-mail of an hour ago --- the idea is you can map to/from rdf:PlainLiteral without getting confused about what's an xs:string
Sandro Hawke: see my e-mail of an hour ago --- the idea is you can map to/from rdf:PlainLiteral without getting confused about what's an xs:string [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:14:14 <bmotik> +1
Boris Motik: +1 ←
14:14:15 <ericP> +0
+0 ←
14:14:17 <baojie> 0
14:14:17 <AndyS> +0
Andy Seaborn: +0 ←
14:14:21 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
14:14:23 <pfps> +1, as this is what has been true from the beginning
Peter Patel-Schneider: +1, as this is what has been true from the beginning ←
14:14:28 <alanr> +1
Alan Ruttenberg: +1 ←
14:14:57 <alanr> RESOLVED: rdf:PlainLiterals will map 1-1 to RDF Plain Literals, so Plain Literals with and without language are both handled by rdf:PlainLiteral.
RESOLVED: rdf:PlainLiterals will map 1-1 to RDF Plain Literals, so Plain Literals with and without language are both handled by rdf:PlainLiteral. ←
14:14:42 <bmotik> Will this affect the document in any way? THat is, do I need to change anything in response? (Particularly given that this is how things work at present).
Boris Motik: Will this affect the document in any way? THat is, do I need to change anything in response? (Particularly given that this is how things work at present). ←
14:15:08 <ericP> sandro: i don't think so, barring editorial suggestions
Sandro Hawke: i don't think so, barring editorial suggestions ←
14:15:22 <sandro> 7. backward-compatibility goal
Sandro Hawke: 7. backward-compatibility goal ←
14:15:05 <bmotik> Great -- thanks!
Boris Motik: Great -- thanks! ←
14:15:35 <alanr> q?
Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←
14:15:36 <ericP> topic: backward compatibility
14:15:52 <ericP> sandro: i'm trying to get the first piece of the interop goal
Sandro Hawke: i'm trying to get the first piece of the interop goal ←
14:16:03 <ericP> ... specifically, do users have to change anything?
... specifically, do users have to change anything? ←
14:16:18 <ericP> ... i believe we are not suggesting that RDF applications change
... i believe we are not suggesting that RDF applications change ←
14:16:30 <pfps> q+
14:16:49 <alanr> ack pfps
Alan Ruttenberg: ack pfps ←
14:16:58 <ericP> pfps: agreed
Peter Patel-Schneider: agreed ←
14:17:17 <ericP> ... until the LC, there was nothing in the doc that would indicate that apps should change
... until the LC, there was nothing in the doc that would indicate that apps should change ←
14:17:28 <ericP> ... i believe that the wiki version changes all RDF apps
... i believe that the wiki version changes all RDF apps ←
14:17:41 <Zakim> -Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro ←
14:17:49 <ericP> ... "rdf:text datatyped literals MUST not appear in RDF applications"
... "rdf:text datatyped literals MUST not appear in RDF applications" ←
14:18:03 <Zakim> +Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro ←
14:18:08 <ericP> ... adds policing requirement
... adds policing requirement ←
14:18:12 <sandro> (sorry, pressed the wrong button on my phone.)
Sandro Hawke: (sorry, pressed the wrong button on my phone.) ←
14:18:35 <alanr> q?
Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←
14:18:53 <ericP> sandro: the current state is not your understanding of our goal?
Sandro Hawke: the current state is not your understanding of our goal? ←
14:19:23 <ericP> pfps: it appears that folks are arguing this constraint in order to NOT change RDF apps
Peter Patel-Schneider: it appears that folks are arguing this constraint in order to NOT change RDF apps ←
14:19:32 <Zakim> +PatH
Zakim IRC Bot: +PatH ←
14:19:53 <ericP> sandro: i think the only folks who should change are those who could get some benefit from it
Sandro Hawke: i think the only folks who should change are those who could get some benefit from it ←
14:20:55 <sandro> PROPOSED: We don't want any code out there to have to change because of this specification. Only new systems specifically intending to use it (eg RIF and OWL2) are pushed to implement it.
PROPOSED: We don't want any code out there to have to change because of this specification. Only new systems specifically intending to use it (eg RIF and OWL2) are pushed to implement it. ←
14:20:56 <ericP> alanr: i understand pfps and PatH argue that the current text is too broad
Alan Ruttenberg: i understand pfps and PatH argue that the current text is too broad ←
14:21:12 <ericP> pfps: i'm just interpreting the current doc. not ready to say what i want
Peter Patel-Schneider: i'm just interpreting the current doc. not ready to say what i want ←
14:21:49 <ericP> PatH sent a draft yesterday
PatH sent a draft yesterday ←
14:22:17 <bmotik> +1
Boris Motik: +1 ←
14:23:01 <ericP> AndyS: screw case: system 1 pubs data with ^^rdf:text, and old system 2 reads it and can't make use of it 'cause it's not a plain literal
Andy Seaborn: screw case: system 1 pubs data with ^^rdf:text, and old system 2 reads it and can't make use of it 'cause it's not a plain literal ←
14:23:12 <ericP> sandro: i'd call that a push to change
Sandro Hawke: i'd call that a push to change ←
14:23:21 <pfps> +0, we are not requiring code to change, but we *should* be encouraging code to change
Peter Patel-Schneider: +0, we are not requiring code to change, but we *should* be encouraging code to change ←
14:23:47 <sandro> sandro: in my mind, if useful data is published using rdf:PlainLiteral, then consumers would be pushed.
Sandro Hawke: in my mind, if useful data is published using rdf:PlainLiteral, then consumers would be pushed. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:23:51 <ericP> ericP: i argue for striking the second sentence
Eric Prud'hommeaux: i argue for striking the second sentence ←
14:24:04 <sandro> PROPOSED: We don't want any code out there to have to change because of this specification.
PROPOSED: We don't want any code out there to have to change because of this specification. ←
14:24:05 <alanr> PROPOSED: We don't want any code out there to have to change because of this specification.
PROPOSED: We don't want any code out there to have to change because of this specification. ←
14:24:10 <ericP> AndyS: would do for me. 2nd sentence gets into how systems expose the information
Andy Seaborn: would do for me. 2nd sentence gets into how systems expose the information ←
14:24:16 <pfps> q+
14:24:21 <alanr> ack pfps
Alan Ruttenberg: ack pfps ←
14:24:31 <ericP> pfps: i disagree.
Peter Patel-Schneider: i disagree. ←
14:24:44 <ericP> ... even harsh wording in the wiki does not have this impact
... even harsh wording in the wiki does not have this impact ←
14:25:05 <ericP> ... it allows rdf:text to appear *not* in the ^^ form
... it allows rdf:text to appear *not* in the ^^ form ←
14:26:00 <sandro> pfps: if people use it as a range, then there's some motivation out there....
Peter Patel-Schneider: if people use it as a range, then there's some motivation out there.... [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:26:01 <ericP> ... this proposal prohibits rdf:text anywhere in a graph, e.g. <p> rdfs:range rdf:text .
... this proposal prohibits rdf:text anywhere in a graph, e.g. <p> rdfs:range rdf:text . ←
14:26:35 <ericP> PatH: apart from its effect on plain literals, it's an ordinary datatype name
Pat Hayes: apart from its effect on plain literals, it's an ordinary datatype name ←
14:26:57 <ericP> pfps: i agree, but i think the proposal violates it
Peter Patel-Schneider: i agree, but i think the proposal violates it ←
14:27:17 <ericP> sandro: ahh, even uttering the datatype encourages folks to implement it
Sandro Hawke: ahh, even uttering the datatype encourages folks to implement it ←
14:27:56 <alanr> q?
Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←
14:28:01 <ericP> topic: how to meet interrop requirements
14:28:15 <sandro> (skipping point 8, going on to point 9, brainstorming...)
Sandro Hawke: (skipping point 8, going on to point 9, brainstorming...) ←
14:28:24 <ericP> PatH: propose a new flavor of RDF, Plain-Typed RDF
Pat Hayes: propose a new flavor of RDF, Plain-Typed RDF ←
14:28:33 <ericP> ... +restrictions:
... +restrictions: ←
14:28:46 <ericP> ... .. ^^rdf:text can't be uttered
... .. ^^rdf:text can't be uttered ←
14:29:00 <alanr> q+ alan to ask what relation of rdfs is to new language?
Alan Ruttenberg: q+ alan to ask what relation of rdfs is to new language? ←
14:29:02 <ericP> ... .. rdf:text can be uttered as a datatype name
... .. rdf:text can be uttered as a datatype name ←
14:29:31 <ericP> ... by naminng this slightly modified RDF, folks can say "i conform to Plain-Typed RDF"
... by naminng this slightly modified RDF, folks can say "i conform to Plain-Typed RDF" ←
14:30:03 <ericP> ... allows impls and specs to refer to it
... allows impls and specs to refer to it ←
14:30:08 <alanr> q?
Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←
14:30:15 <ericP> ... e.g. OWL2 and RIF
... e.g. OWL2 and RIF ←
14:30:51 <alanr> ack alan
Alan Ruttenberg: ack alan ←
14:30:51 <Zakim> alan, you wanted to ask what relation of rdfs is to new language?
Zakim IRC Bot: alan, you wanted to ask what relation of rdfs is to new language? ←
14:30:57 <ericP> ... proposed spec defines the datatype and the inference
... proposed spec defines the datatype and the inference ←
14:31:09 <ericP> AndyS: what's the status of deployed data?
Andy Seaborn: what's the status of deployed data? ←
14:31:38 <alanr> q+ alan
Alan Ruttenberg: q+ alan ←
14:31:40 <ericP> PatH: existing RDF which doesn't (accidentally) use this datatype remains the same
Pat Hayes: existing RDF which doesn't (accidentally) use this datatype remains the same ←
14:31:46 <AndyS> q+ to ask about MIME type
Andy Seaborn: q+ to ask about MIME type ←
14:31:53 <ericP> q+ to argue that branching has consequences
q+ to argue that branching has consequences ←
14:32:15 <ericP> alanr: how does this affect RDFS?
Alan Ruttenberg: how does this affect RDFS? ←
14:32:36 <ericP> ... noting that RDFS is based on RDF, and OWL extends RDFS
... noting that RDFS is based on RDF, and OWL extends RDFS ←
14:32:46 <ericP> PatH: in RDFS you have a new built-in datatype
Pat Hayes: in RDFS you have a new built-in datatype ←
14:32:56 <ericP> ... class, range, reasoning applies to it
... class, range, reasoning applies to it ←
14:33:53 <alanr> ack alan
Alan Ruttenberg: ack alan ←
14:33:57 <alanr> ack AndyS
Alan Ruttenberg: ack AndyS ←
14:33:57 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask about MIME type
Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS, you wanted to ask about MIME type ←
14:34:03 <ericP> ... one could say "using RDFS(Plain-Typed"
... one could say "using RDFS(Plain-Typed" ←
14:34:14 <ericP> AndyS: what about mime-types?
Andy Seaborn: what about mime-types? ←
14:34:25 <ericP> ... i fear this may be too clever
... i fear this may be too clever ←
14:34:42 <alanr> ack ericP
Alan Ruttenberg: ack ericP ←
14:34:42 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to argue that branching has consequences
Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, you wanted to argue that branching has consequences ←
<ericP> scribenick AndyS
scribenick AndyS ←
14:35:16 <AndyS> ericP: Caution against branching because of matrix of interactions
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Caution against branching because of matrix of interactions [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborn ] ←
14:35:40 <AndyS> ... suggest langauge for doc for don't write ^^rdf:text"
Andy Seaborn: ... suggest langauge for doc for don't write ^^rdf:text" ←
14:37:32 <AndyS> ... may or may not want to prevent ^^rdf:text in RDF (no OWL, RIF systems around)
Andy Seaborn: ... may or may not want to prevent ^^rdf:text in RDF (no OWL, RIF systems around) ←
14:37:51 <AndyS> ... but then have to operate on the as-is form (no lang tag implications)
Andy Seaborn: ... but then have to operate on the as-is form (no lang tag implications) ←
<ericP> scribenick ericP
scribenick ericP ←
14:38:14 <ericP> alanr: you (pfps) listed an order of preferences
Alan Ruttenberg: you (pfps) listed an order of preferences ←
14:39:07 <alanr> http://www.w3.org/mid/20090527.092010.00457379.pfps@research.bell-labs.com
Alan Ruttenberg: http://www.w3.org/mid/20090527.092010.00457379.pfps@research.bell-labs.com ←
14:39:10 <ericP> sandro: the six that pfps listed, which i characterized as steps in increasing restrictiveness
Sandro Hawke: the six that pfps listed, which i characterized as steps in increasing restrictiveness ←
14:39:19 <ericP> ... starts with anyone can do anything
... starts with anyone can do anything ←
14:39:27 <ericP> ... 4 is a SHOULDn't
... 4 is a SHOULDn't ←
14:39:36 <ericP> ... 5 is a MUSTn't
... 5 is a MUSTn't ←
14:39:54 <pfps> q+
14:40:37 <ericP> alanr: consequences of 1 seem to lose opportunities to interpret ^^rdf:text as a plain literals
Alan Ruttenberg: consequences of 1 seem to lose opportunities to interpret ^^rdf:text as a plain literals ←
14:40:54 <alanr> q?
Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←
14:41:01 <alanr> ack pfps
Alan Ruttenberg: ack pfps ←
14:41:07 <pfps> q-
14:41:10 <ericP> pfps: sparql is already broken in this way. we're not breaking it further
Peter Patel-Schneider: sparql is already broken in this way. we're not breaking it further ←
14:41:21 <ericP> PatH: heard this argument many times
Pat Hayes: heard this argument many times ←
14:41:30 <ericP> ... A i think that's poor practice
... A i think that's poor practice ←
14:41:36 <pfps> q+
14:41:49 <ericP> ... B the ways it broken are edge cases. this will turn out to be a central case
... B the ways it broken are edge cases. this will turn out to be a central case ←
14:41:52 <pfps> q+
14:42:09 <alanr> ack pfps
Alan Ruttenberg: ack pfps ←
14:42:21 <ericP> pfps: xsd:string has wide useage on the web
Peter Patel-Schneider: xsd:string has wide useage on the web ←
14:42:31 <ericP> ... it exhibits the same behavoir as rdf:text
... it exhibits the same behavoir as rdf:text ←
14:42:41 <ericP> ... so we're not breaking it any further
... so we're not breaking it any further ←
14:43:06 <ericP> AndyS: filter functions were designed with xsd:string and plain literals being treated the same
Andy Seaborn: filter functions were designed with xsd:string and plain literals being treated the same ←
14:43:11 <alanr> q?
Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←
14:43:34 <ericP> ... so implementations handle that case, while they would not for rdf:text
... so implementations handle that case, while they would not for rdf:text ←
14:43:56 <ericP> pfps: i agree that some of the cruft in SPARQL is to paper over the problem in BGP matching
Peter Patel-Schneider: i agree that some of the cruft in SPARQL is to paper over the problem in BGP matching ←
14:44:29 <ericP> alanr: when discussing backward-compatibility goal, was this examplar the main case?
Alan Ruttenberg: when discussing backward-compatibility goal, was this examplar the main case? ←
14:44:51 <ericP> AndyS: my issue is new systems creating data which old systems don't understand
Andy Seaborn: my issue is new systems creating data which old systems don't understand ←
14:45:02 <ericP> alanr: that was my intended characterization
Alan Ruttenberg: that was my intended characterization ←
14:45:22 <alanr> My second preference would be to just change the OWL 2 mapping to RDF
Alan Ruttenberg: My second preference would be to just change the OWL 2 mapping to RDF ←
14:45:22 <alanr> graphs document to map rdf:text datatyped literal into plain RDF
Alan Ruttenberg: graphs document to map rdf:text datatyped literal into plain RDF ←
14:45:22 <alanr> literals.
Alan Ruttenberg: literals. ←
14:45:26 <alanr> My= Peter
Alan Ruttenberg: My= Peter ←
14:45:40 <pfps> Change OWL 2 mapping to RDF to map rdf:text datatyped literals into plain RDF literals.
Peter Patel-Schneider: Change OWL 2 mapping to RDF to map rdf:text datatyped literals into plain RDF literals. ←
14:45:48 <bmotik> I'm afraid I need to leave now. Bye!
Boris Motik: I'm afraid I need to leave now. Bye! ←
14:45:52 <ericP> alanr: this is perhaps implicit in the current rdf:text doc
Alan Ruttenberg: this is perhaps implicit in the current rdf:text doc ←
14:45:56 <Zakim> -bmotik
Zakim IRC Bot: -bmotik ←
14:46:01 <alanr> q?
Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←
14:46:20 <ericP> PatH: seems sensible, if we can't do anything else
Pat Hayes: seems sensible, if we can't do anything else ←
14:46:37 <ericP> ... but feels like putting a plug in a larger hole; we have more to worry about than RIF and OWL2
... but feels like putting a plug in a larger hole; we have more to worry about than RIF and OWL2 ←
14:46:59 <pfps> That is the next two options.
Peter Patel-Schneider: That is the next two options. ←
14:47:01 <ericP> alanr: textual suggestion to make this apply to all analogous docs?
Alan Ruttenberg: textual suggestion to make this apply to all analogous docs? ←
14:47:07 <ericP> PatH: i think so
14:47:10 <alanr> My third and fourth preferences would be to say that applications (and
Alan Ruttenberg: My third and fourth preferences would be to say that applications (and ←
14:47:10 <alanr> recommendations) that incorporate rdf:text may/should be nice to older
Alan Ruttenberg: recommendations) that incorporate rdf:text may/should be nice to older ←
14:47:10 <alanr> applications (and recommendatations) and therefore may/should not emit
Alan Ruttenberg: applications (and recommendatations) and therefore may/should not emit ←
14:47:10 <alanr> rdf:text datatyped literals in RDF syntaxes by changing them to plain
Alan Ruttenberg: rdf:text datatyped literals in RDF syntaxes by changing them to plain ←
14:47:10 <alanr> literals.
Alan Ruttenberg: literals. ←
14:47:44 <alanr> q?
Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←
14:47:57 <ericP> alanr: what are the (dis)advantages of MAY, SHOULD, MUST?
Alan Ruttenberg: what are the (dis)advantages of MAY, SHOULD, MUST? ←
14:48:19 <ericP> pfps: i prefer MAY, can live with SHOULD, but MUST has a timelessness aspect to it
Peter Patel-Schneider: i prefer MAY, can live with SHOULD, but MUST has a timelessness aspect to it ←
14:48:42 <ericP> sandro: looks like MUST is split across 5 and 6
Sandro Hawke: looks like MUST is split across 5 and 6 ←
14:48:56 <ericP> PatH: MUST it two strong
Pat Hayes: MUST it two strong ←
14:49:22 <ericP> AndyS: i think SHOULD lasts as long as MUST
Andy Seaborn: i think SHOULD lasts as long as MUST ←
14:49:50 <ericP> alanr: can we say "until an group chartered to modify RDF changes its mind"
Alan Ruttenberg: can we say "until an group chartered to modify RDF changes its mind" ←
14:50:03 <ericP> AndyS: would expect that to be part of RDF
Andy Seaborn: would expect that to be part of RDF ←
14:50:19 <alanr> My fifth preference would be to say that in *syntaxes* for RDF graphs,
Alan Ruttenberg: My fifth preference would be to say that in *syntaxes* for RDF graphs, ←
14:50:19 <alanr> e.g., RDF/XML and Turtle, (and related syntaxes, such as any syntaxes
Alan Ruttenberg: e.g., RDF/XML and Turtle, (and related syntaxes, such as any syntaxes ←
14:50:19 <alanr> for SPARQL basic graph patterns, I guess) the syntax for rdf:text
Alan Ruttenberg: for SPARQL basic graph patterns, I guess) the syntax for rdf:text ←
14:50:19 <alanr> datatyped literals *is* the syntax for plain RDF literals.
Alan Ruttenberg: datatyped literals *is* the syntax for plain RDF literals. ←
14:50:24 <ericP> ericP: i would expect that to be in the "latest version" link to rdf:text
Eric Prud'hommeaux: i would expect that to be in the "latest version" link to rdf:text ←
14:51:20 <ericP> AndyS: i feel there is advantage in talking about syntax as that is what exchanged
Andy Seaborn: i feel there is advantage in talking about syntax as that is what exchanged ←
14:51:39 <ericP> PatH: [general approval, if ED understood it]
Pat Hayes: [general approval, if ED understood it] ←
14:51:51 <ericP> pfps: this doesn't change RDF graphs is any way
Peter Patel-Schneider: this doesn't change RDF graphs is any way ←
14:52:15 <ericP> ... the underlying dicotomy remains, but you'd never notice unless RDF gets updated to reveal it
... the underlying dicotomy remains, but you'd never notice unless RDF gets updated to reveal it ←
14:52:16 <sandro> pfps: this is kind of a cheat, a bandaid -- the graphs aren't fixed, but you can't see it.
Peter Patel-Schneider: this is kind of a cheat, a bandaid -- the graphs aren't fixed, but you can't see it. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:52:25 <ericP> PatH: agreed
14:52:45 <ericP> ... does this propose that existing systems police ^^rdf:text?
... does this propose that existing systems police ^^rdf:text? ←
14:52:52 <ericP> pfps: umm, no
Peter Patel-Schneider: umm, no ←
14:53:38 <ericP> ... PatH's proposal changes RDF in a fundamental way
... PatH's proposal changes RDF in a fundamental way ←
14:54:12 <ericP> q+ to say that i strongly support "syntax for rdf:text literals *is* plain literals'
q+ to say that i strongly support "syntax for rdf:text literals *is* plain literals' ←
14:54:27 <alanr> ack eric
Alan Ruttenberg: ack eric ←
14:54:27 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to say that i strongly support "syntax for rdf:text literals *is* plain literals'
Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, you wanted to say that i strongly support "syntax for rdf:text literals *is* plain literals' ←
14:54:39 <alanr> 1. nothing 2. change mapping 3. should emit 4. syntax
Alan Ruttenberg: 1. nothing 2. change mapping 3. should emit 4. syntax ←
14:55:00 <alanr> 1. nothing 2. change mapping 3&4. should emit 5. syntax
Alan Ruttenberg: 1. nothing 2. change mapping 3&4. should emit 5. syntax ←
14:55:21 <sandro> <alanr> 1. nothing 2. change mapping 3 may emit. 4. should not emit 5. syntax
Sandro Hawke: <alanr> 1. nothing 2. change mapping 3 may emit. 4. should not emit 5. syntax ←
14:55:40 <pfps> 1,2
Peter Patel-Schneider: 1,2 ←
14:55:45 <sandro> 4,5
Sandro Hawke: 4,5 ←
14:55:50 <ericP> ericP: 5
14:55:51 <baojie> 4,5
14:55:51 <sandro> pat_hayes: 5,1
Pat Hayes: 5,1 [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:55:55 <AndyS> 5,4 s/should/must/
Andy Seaborn: 5,4 s/should/must/ ←
14:56:03 <alanr> 5,4
Alan Ruttenberg: 5,4 ←
14:56:59 <sandro> strawpoll: we'll do option 5
STRAWPOLL: we'll do option 5 ←
14:57:02 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
14:57:03 <pfps> +0
14:57:04 <ericP> ericP: +1
Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 ←
14:57:06 <alanr> +1
Alan Ruttenberg: +1 ←
14:57:07 <AndyS> +1
Andy Seaborn: +1 ←
14:57:07 <baojie> +1
14:57:22 <sandro> pat_hayes: +1
Pat Hayes: +1 [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:57:26 <sandro> strawpoll: we'll do option 4
STRAWPOLL: we'll do option 4 ←
14:57:30 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
14:57:32 <ericP> +.5
+.5 ←
14:57:32 <pfps> +0
14:57:42 <AndyS> +0.75
Andy Seaborn: +0.75 ←
14:57:56 <alanr> +.5
Alan Ruttenberg: +.5 ←
14:58:06 <sandro> pat_hayes: +0.8
Pat Hayes: +0.8 [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:58:20 <sandro> strawpoll: we'll do option 3
STRAWPOLL: we'll do option 3 ←
14:58:24 <sandro> pat_hayes: 0
Pat Hayes: 0 [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:58:25 <ericP> ericP: -1
Eric Prud'hommeaux: -1 ←
14:58:27 <pfps> +0.5
Peter Patel-Schneider: +0.5 ←
14:58:28 <AndyS> - 0.5
Andy Seaborn: - 0.5 ←
14:58:29 <sandro> -=
Sandro Hawke: -= ←
14:58:31 <alanr> -.
Alan Ruttenberg: -. ←
14:58:32 <sandro> -0
Sandro Hawke: -0 ←
14:58:34 <alanr> -0.5
Alan Ruttenberg: -0.5 ←
14:58:34 <baojie> 0
14:59:10 <ericP> alanr: sentiment seems strongest for 5
Alan Ruttenberg: sentiment seems strongest for 5 ←
14:59:24 <sandro> alanr: the sentiment seems to be on the fifth proposal....
Alan Ruttenberg: the sentiment seems to be on the fifth proposal.... [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:59:34 <ericP> ... i don't believe PatH's has sufficient support given raised issues
... i don't believe PatH's has sufficient support given raised issues ←
14:59:52 <alanr> ok
Alan Ruttenberg: ok ←
15:00:56 <ericP> ACTION: pfps to suggest edits to the wiki page for options 5
ACTION: pfps to suggest edits to the wiki page for options 5 ←
15:00:56 <trackbot> Created ACTION-337 - Suggest edits to the wiki page for options 5 [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2009-06-03].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-337 - Suggest edits to the wiki page for options 5 [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2009-06-03]. ←
15:02:13 <sandro> RRSAgent, make record public
Sandro Hawke: RRSAgent, make record public ←
15:02:29 <AndyS> Thx
Andy Seaborn: Thx ←
15:02:37 <Zakim> -PatH
Zakim IRC Bot: -PatH ←
15:02:39 <Zakim> -alanr
Zakim IRC Bot: -alanr ←
15:02:42 <Zakim> -IanH
Zakim IRC Bot: -IanH ←
15:02:46 <Zakim> -baojie
Zakim IRC Bot: -baojie ←
15:02:52 <ericP> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
RRSAgent, please draft minutes ←
15:02:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-owl-minutes.html ericP
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-owl-minutes.html ericP ←
15:03:34 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider
Zakim IRC Bot: -Peter_Patel-Schneider ←
15:05:01 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the call? ←
15:05:01 <Zakim> On the phone I see EricP, AndyS, Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see EricP, AndyS, Sandro ←
15:07:31 <Zakim> -AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS ←
Formatted by CommonScribe
This revision (#6) generated 2009-05-29 14:39:58 UTC by 'ppatelsc', comments: 'fix transcript of one of my utterances'