00:05:36 robburns has joined #html-wg 00:24:52 gavin has joined #html-wg 01:21:03 timbl has joined #html-wg 01:29:32 Lachy has left #html-wg 01:34:59 Lachy has joined #html-wg 01:41:01 marcos has joined #html-wg 01:43:26 marcospod has joined #html-wg 02:22:23 KevinLawver has joined #html-wg 02:32:26 gavin has joined #html-wg 02:36:06 smedero has joined #html-wg 02:48:16 Lachy: i meant the mailing list 02:51:10 mjs has joined #html-wg 02:51:54 howdy gentlemen 02:54:10 jgraham_ has joined #html-wg 02:54:57 anne has joined #html-wg 03:00:30 jmb has joined #html-wg 03:11:44 dbaron has joined #html-wg 03:30:07 tantek has joined #html-wg 03:44:53 howdy all 03:45:04 good evening 03:47:05 hello 03:56:51 kazuhito has joined #html-wg 04:24:40 howcome has joined #html-wg 04:40:13 gavin has joined #html-wg 05:01:23 jgraham_ has joined #html-wg 05:37:13 mjs has joined #html-wg 06:17:16 Lachy has changed the topic to: HTML WG meeting - http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/F2F 06:46:48 gavin has joined #html-wg 06:47:07 janet has joined #html-wg 07:12:54 janet has left #html-wg 07:30:08 tantek has joined #html-wg 07:32:33 mjs has joined #html-wg 07:49:07 Lachy has joined #html-wg 07:55:50 mjs has joined #html-wg 08:26:03 tH_ has joined #html-wg 08:38:40 ROBOd has joined #html-wg 08:40:04 paullewis has joined #html-wg 08:54:47 gavin has joined #html-wg 09:34:40 Julian has joined #html-wg 09:44:46 Lachy has joined #html-wg 09:45:09 mjs has joined #html-wg 10:02:41 xover has joined #html-wg 10:14:39 hober has joined #html-wg 10:21:06 paullewis has joined #html-wg 11:01:33 gavin has joined #html-wg 11:21:11 howcome has joined #html-wg 12:00:53 MikeSmith has joined #html-wg 12:07:00 karl has joined #html-wg 12:29:01 timbl has joined #html-wg 12:30:50 Nick has joined #html-wg 12:34:44 MikeSmith has joined #html-wg 12:36:07 gorm has joined #html-wg 12:45:38 jgraham_ has joined #html-wg 12:49:14 Lachy has joined #html-wg 12:52:52 Julian has joined #html-wg 12:53:45 anne has joined #html-wg 12:57:02 MikeSmith: http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=1805709102&size=o 12:57:08 The Web is agreement 12:58:06 karl, is the htmlwg meeting continuing today? 12:58:49 Lachy: yes 12:58:57 what time does it start? 12:59:13 http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/F2F 12:59:25 9am 12:59:56 ok 13:01:13 karl has joined #html-wg 13:03:32 anne has joined #html-wg 13:09:18 gavin has joined #html-wg 13:18:14 gorm has joined #html-wg 13:38:04 MikeSmith has joined #html-wg 13:38:36 justin has joined #html-wg 13:39:39 jgraham_ has joined #html-wg 13:39:54 matt has joined #html-wg 13:40:01 Nick has joined #html-wg 13:52:55 arun_ has joined #html-wg 13:53:13 dbaron has joined #html-wg 13:53:45 MarcinHanclik has joined #html-wg 13:57:30 MarcinHanclik has joined #html-wg 14:00:21 anne has joined #html-wg 14:02:12 http://flickr.com/photos/jgraham/1933611581/ 14:03:28 MarcinHanclik has joined #html-wg 14:04:57 justin has joined #html-wg 14:06:10 Karl: New technical contact for HTML is Michael Smith 14:06:17 [the audience goes mad] 14:06:23 smedero has joined #html-wg 14:06:27 Karl: [praises Mike some more] 14:06:27 DanC_lap has joined #html-wg 14:06:53 s/Michael/Michael(tm)/ 14:07:32 MikeSmith has joined #html-wg 14:07:44 Topic: story telling + testcases 14:08:00 On screen: "Testing: hard?" 14:08:29 Olivier Theroux talking 14:09:59 screen say "your tag sucks" 14:10:10 also "Ranting: easy!" 14:10:21 s/Theroux/Thereaux/ 14:10:29 followed by "Ranting: easy!" 14:10:52 OT: People already test, otherwise they couldn't rant about the impl sucking 14:11:37 OT: Invite people (ranters) to participate in testing. 14:11:48 glazou has joined #html-wg 14:12:25 link love 14:13:42 screen: "Leveraging the lazy Web" 14:13:45 Slide: Leveraging the lazy Web 14:14:27 right. well. if anyone wants to help me write the scripts to handle dynamic annotation of the html5 spec, i'm going into the lobby 14:15:14 billyjack has joined #html-wg 14:15:50 olivier has joined #html-wg 14:16:24 q? 14:16:31 ChrisWilson has joined #html-wg 14:16:48 q+ 14:16:54 q- MichaelC 14:16:58 ack Michael 14:17:01 Michael? 14:17:08 najib has joined #html-wg 14:17:35 dsinger has joined #html-wg 14:17:36 mauro has joined #html-wg 14:17:37 hsivonen - I miss the point of using EARL ... why EARL? 14:17:40 Zakim, no time limit 14:17:40 I don't understand 'no time limit', anne 14:17:45 Zakim, no time 14:17:45 I don't understand 'no time', anne 14:17:50 Zakim, bah 14:17:50 I don't understand 'bah', anne 14:18:04 zakim, stop timing 14:18:04 ok, mauro 14:18:09 timbl has joined #html-wg 14:18:11 q+ to answer "why earl?" 14:18:46 q+ plh 14:18:49 OT: EARL is not a panacea, it's just [one] appropriate way 14:18:52 r12a has joined #html-wg 14:19:15 PIon has joined #html-wg 14:19:52 q+ to answer hsivonen 14:20:12 hsivonen - worried about the reputation system ... Subversion team says that people should not put their names on the code [for test cases?} 14:21:02 howcome has joined #html-wg 14:21:04 ack hsivonen 14:21:05 ack danc 14:21:05 DanC_lap, you wanted to answer "why earl?" 14:21:14 shepazu has joined #html-wg 14:21:15 for more on why earl and how earl: 14:21:15 dom is coming now to showcase the mobile web test harness 14:21:22 q? 14:21:24 -> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/test_results GRDDL implementation report, built with EARL 14:21:33 ack p 14:21:43 never too soon to start testing 14:23:07 fantasai has joined #html-wg 14:23:47 anne, want to q+ to bring these concerns? 14:24:15 q+ dom to showcase test harness 14:24:18 q+ to say that I think we should discuss licensing, hosting, making tests, as opposed to EARL 14:24:49 help, namespaces on screen 14:25:08 i'm melting! 14:26:37 For the record: HTML is generated using print, not using a DOM 14:26:44 fsasaki has joined #html-wg 14:26:46 (in the python script that goes from EARL to HTML) 14:27:23 q? 14:27:28 ack dom 14:27:28 dom, you wanted to showcase test harness 14:27:47 Dom is chair of Mobile Web Initiative Test Suites Working Group 14:27:55 q- karl 14:28:05 Dom describing Mobile Test Harness 14:29:32 http://www.w3.org/2007/03/mth/harness 14:29:39 q+ to ask dom how you avoid spam/bogus 14:33:26 harness lets users either run full test suite, a single test 14:33:37 q+ plh 14:33:38 ... or come back to the test suite and run only the tests not yet tested 14:34:02 q? 14:34:22 ack me 14:34:22 olivier, you wanted to ask dom how you avoid spam/bogus 14:34:59 dom: the results show how many people agree/disagree 14:35:13 ... the power of many will/should show the actual result 14:35:36 ... if after a while there is still disagreement maybe the test case is not clear or relevant 14:36:06 dom: the goal of this was to build a nice report chart automatically 14:36:14 ... these generally done by hand until now 14:36:41 håkon: like the harness. we seem to have a big community that we could leverage 14:36:52 ... but will there be an issue with having too many tests 14:37:08 karl: you can just answer a few tests 14:37:22 håkon: for a tester, completing the suite has a feel-good effect 14:37:28 q+ 14:37:30 plh: we could have modules 14:37:42 plh: can I change my answers? 14:37:50 dom: you can use the back button 14:38:27 mauro has joined #html-wg 14:38:32 ack plh 14:38:39 plh: is the system really scalable? 14:38:43 fsasaki has joined #html-wg 14:38:54 dom: number of tests doesn't affect the running of the test suite 14:39:03 ... only the report table 14:39:09 q? 14:39:11 q+ to point out that anybody who wants it to work but worries about W3C servers can wish into the supporters program 14:39:15 ack h 14:39:44 hsivonen mentions the Mechanical Turk 14:39:45 yes! just like mechanical turk, hsivonen 14:39:47 or simply automate a bunch of tests using JavaScript 14:39:56 yes, automated tests are great too, anne 14:39:59 we already did that for html5lib tests 14:40:21 dom: we can add these features to the system, it's still fairly young 14:40:27 ... still fairly flexible 14:40:44 plh: do you need an account? 14:40:45 q? 14:40:58 dom: no. and the system is stateless 14:41:03 but then, maybe I'm just used to being spammed. 14:41:17 http://www.w3.org/Consortium/sup 14:41:40 anne, I think I should have made your q+ an agenda+ 14:41:48 automated html5lib tests: http://html5.org/parsing-tests/testrunner.htm 14:42:14 ack anne 14:42:14 anne, you wanted to say that I think we should discuss licensing, hosting, making tests, as opposed to EARL 14:42:24 RFE: mix in the "I agree to the W3C patent policy" ritual 14:42:31 agenda+ we should discuss licensing, hosting, making tests, as opposed to EARL [anne] 14:43:21 dom: the harness is open, public, talking about it is welcome 14:43:30 hixie is giving a course on testing in another time/space 14:43:36 on making tests, that is 14:44:38 q? 14:45:23 let's look at http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/F2F 14:47:12 Ishida offers to talk about i18n issues; the i18n group is visiting this morning 14:47:36 Ishida: We haven't started reviewing formally yet. 14:47:46 Anne asks the i18n group for issues. 14:48:04 Henri: There are some requirements in the charmod model that we can't satisfy and meet our existing content compatibility requirements. 14:48:23 Dan wants proof 14:49:04 Henri: THere are some cases where I as a validator must ignore one of the checkpoints or my users will ignore me. 14:49:38 Addison says that this is an opportunity to teach web authors about how to handle char encoding properly. 14:49:46 Howcome asks for a summary of the issue. 14:49:47 well, no, I don't want proof; I want it recognized as a tension rather than a black-and-white impossible conflict 14:49:58 Addison: The issue is that there's a section on encoding detection for the page. 14:50:15 Addison: And the sequence has a part where we were concerned about the phrasing 14:50:37 Addison: Not because they're technically wrong, but because they may give people the wrong impression. 14:50:39 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Nov/0068.html 14:50:59 Addison: You have a phrase that says that Windows ??? is the encoding for Western documents 14:51:34 Some discussion of the wording 14:51:54 q+ 14:51:59 s/???/1252/ 14:52:05 Addison: we could do some work to support you 14:52:37 Addison: This windows-1252 seems to appear from nowhere. People don't know its relation to other encodings. We could provide additional references. 14:52:38 q+ to say that when I checked the windows-1252 stuff, it seems to me that hsivonen's code/design is ok as is, but the I18N WG suggested some change of emphasis in the spec 14:52:48 Anne: This is the parsing section for implementors, not for authors. 14:53:01 Addison: Implementors dont' necessarily know more about encodings. 14:53:16 Addison: For example, how do you know if you're parsing from a Western demogrpahic? 14:53:24 Addison: We proposed some changes to the text. 14:53:38 s/demogrpahic/demographic/ 14:53:56 Addison: We moved the recommendation to UTF higher and then added a note about the use of windows 12-52 14:54:12 Henri: this is the last fallback. 14:54:12 I went ahead and opened an issue for this topic... 14:54:14 (is there an issue tracking TF member here? where does this live in the issues list?) 14:54:15 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/11 14:54:17 q? 14:54:33 MikeSmith has joined #html-wg 14:54:34 Addison: This is the last paragraph after everything, including auto-detect, fails. 14:54:40 Henri: That should be windows1252 14:55:18 proposed ACTION: addison and hsivonen to investigate HTML default encoding and windows1252 over beverage of choice 14:55:20 ack danc 14:55:20 DanC_lap, you wanted to point out that anybody who wants it to work but worries about W3C servers can wish into the supporters program and to and to say that when I checked the 14:55:23 ... windows-1252 stuff, it seems to me that hsivonen's code/design is ok as is, but the I18N WG suggested some change of emphasis in the spec 14:55:30 Addison explains that utf8 and windows 1252 can be differentiated with heuristics. 14:55:38 Henri says that that should be part of an earlier step 14:56:46 decided to move that discussion to after break and invite hixie 14:56:56 henri and addison will discuss 14:57:19 Anne adds Test licensing to 4pm slot 14:57:25 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/11 14:57:37 ^^^is the character encoding issue 14:57:55 Anne wants a W3C lawyer to attend to discuss licensing 14:58:00 DanC says that MIT has been approvied 14:58:04 s/ied/ed/ 14:58:19 (yeah I was *just* opening that issue before DanC asked for it... it is quite brief... but at least it is there.) 14:58:23 go DanC_lap! 14:58:41 break 15:00:47 RRSAgent, draft minutes 15:00:47 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/09-html-wg-minutes.html mauro 15:02:01 RRSAgent, make logs world-visible 15:02:29 zakim, who is here? 15:02:29 Team_(html-wg)21:03Z has not yet started, mauro 15:02:31 On IRC I see MikeSmith, fsasaki, mauro, fantasai, shepazu, howcome, PIon, r12a, timbl, dsinger, najib, ChrisWilson, olivier, glazou, DanC_lap, smedero, justin, MarcinHanclik, anne, 15:02:36 ... dbaron, arun, Nick, matt, jgraham_, gorm, gavin, karl, Julian, Lachy, paullewis, xover, mjs, ROBOd, tH, jmb, Yves, raman, anthony, Bert, Philip, Zakim, oedipus, Lionheart, 15:02:41 ... Hixie, heycam, laplink, bogi, gsnedders, Thezilch, jane, krijnh, deltab, Dashiva, gavin_, beowulf, jgraham, drry, hsivonen, trackbot-ng, Bob_le_Pointu, RRSAgent 15:03:19 RRSAgent, draft minutes 15:03:19 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/09-html-wg-minutes.html mauro 15:05:26 myakura has joined #html-wg 15:07:49 KevinLawver has joined #html-wg 15:09:29 Meeting: HTML Working Group November f2f Day Two 15:09:39 RRSAgent, draft minutes 15:09:39 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/09-html-wg-minutes.html mauro 15:14:10 mjs has joined #html-wg 15:15:56 gavin has joined #html-wg 15:17:00 jgraham_ has joined #html-wg 15:17:03 \ 15:17:52 what room is hsivonen in now? 15:18:27 we're in the lobby 15:18:40 close to the exist, on the couch + chairs 15:19:01 room D was not useful 15:21:05 anne, what do you mean room D was not useful? can I help? 15:21:45 No chairs in D 15:21:57 or tables 15:22:13 what? 15:22:16 you mean Ballroom B? 15:22:18 scottv has joined #html-wg 15:22:26 Yeah B, not D 15:22:37 http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/F2F 15:24:41 billmason has joined #html-wg 15:25:43 GIG session at 11am 15:25:48 during the break 15:27:44 well, we're in B now 15:27:56 it's through a secret door 15:29:09 mjs, organising tests is at 16:00 now 15:29:10 it was not about organizing 15:29:41 MarcinHanclik has joined #html-wg 15:33:23 mjs has left #html-wg 15:33:40 mjs has joined #html-wg 15:33:49 the wiki is updated 15:34:02 fantasai thanks for minuting 15:34:14 I only see "HTML5 for Authors" at 4:30 15:34:32 that's 14:30 15:34:34 oh, that's 2:30 15:34:49 There's "Tests: : Licensing, hosting, etc." 15:34:52 cool 15:35:13 Yves has left #html-wg 15:35:25 licensing is resolved apparently 15:35:30 The W3C is now fine with MIT 15:35:38 :) 15:36:23 najib has left #html-wg 15:37:50 anne - was there any discussion of hosting? 15:37:53 ahhh ok 15:38:12 MikeSmith, 4PM 15:38:19 hai 15:39:25 aaronlev has joined #html-wg 15:42:22 PLEASE NOTE: Offline support is moved to 11:45, due to scheduling conflict. We can run slightly late and into lunch, or if people would prefer we can move it to 5:00PM 15:43:04 FYI: I can't attend from 2PM to 4PM having to attend the Web API WG meeting 15:43:22 (XMLHttpRequest level 1 and level 2 are discussed if anyone is interested.) 15:48:49 ChrisWilson: what was the conflict? 15:51:00 KevinLawver has joined #html-wg 15:55:09 I'm ok with either 5 PM or 11:45 AM 15:55:37 Hixie - the schedule worked, except a bunch of people (including my co-chair) thought the instant gig was set for 11:00, not 10:00, and didn't discover this conflict until too late. 15:55:55 aah 15:56:39 Hixie, the "i18n people" want to discuss some issues with encoding detection around 11AM, any chance you join? Hopefully it doesn't take too long 16:00:12 I guess that would be now 16:00:14 hmm 16:00:27 anne, would you like to have that technical issue discussion with a larger group? we can put it on the agenda, either later today or tomorrow. Or have an informal discussion over lunch? 16:01:11 it's just a few things, they haven't reviewed HTML 5 yet 16:01:25 (well, obviously some parts, but not all of it) 16:01:37 so informal is fine 16:03:28 chaals has joined #html-wg 16:04:06 anne: sure 16:04:08 anne: wher? 16:04:37 by the drinks, close to D 16:04:55 i'm looking after mike's laptop but once he gets back i can join you 16:05:01 myakura_ has joined #html-wg 16:05:28 ok. It seemed like not only were they familiar with the current spec, but that they didn't have the same thoughts about specifying a definitive default for interop. Or maybe that was just my interpretation. 16:09:13 aaronlev has joined #html-wg 16:09:27 hasather has joined #html-wg 16:09:29 Hixie - sorry bout my laptop - thanks 16:10:13 I don't see him. 16:10:25 oedipus - Marcos not in the room here 16:10:32 smedero has joined #html-wg 16:11:36 MikeSmith: np 16:13:12 guys: you should come here 16:13:40 Yeah, this is the reprise of karaoke from last nite. 16:13:43 :/ 16:14:04 Hixie, Janet just dedicated a stanza to you. :) 16:14:17 I'm really digging the animated GIF on the tab/lyric page. 16:14:55 http://hsivonen.iki.fi/charmod-checking/ 16:15:19 http://hsivonen.iki.fi/charmod-norm-checking/ 16:16:22 ChrisWilson: aww 16:16:22 #i18n covers some of the i18n discussion 16:16:27 ChrisWilson: please convey my thanks 16:16:35 it's in room B and slightly more formal than I expected 16:16:43 myakura has joined #html-wg 16:17:02 tantek has joined #html-wg 16:18:39 dbaron has joined #html-wg 16:19:23 mjs has joined #html-wg 16:19:33 Ian, you're missing your dedication 16:20:02 mjs has left #html-wg 16:20:04 Ian may be wrapped up in the il8n discussion... 16:20:07 mjs has joined #html-wg 16:20:08 Hixie: you're lucky to be missing it 16:20:13 hahaha 16:22:23 aaronlev has joined #html-wg 16:24:57 olivier has joined #html-wg 16:30:09 olivier has joined #html-wg 16:30:25 aww, now come on mjs. This is fine entertainment. :) 16:30:27 Can someone inform me why we need another ARIA discussion? 16:31:25 The ARIA guys didn't feel the conversation had resolved. I wasn't there, Dan was busy at the time. Were you there, and can you summarize the conversation and conclusion for me? 16:31:36 (brb) 16:32:03 I wanted to discuss naming, but the rest was more interested in discussing what ARIA is about it seems 16:32:48 I don't really want to discuss either of those as I think after the five discussions of an hour or longer I've had on this I think we should just bite the bullet and move on 16:34:33 can you describe your bullet? :) (I know what ARIA is, how it works, etc.) 16:34:59 how do you think it should be embedded into HTML (and XHTML, et al)? 16:35:50 I think we should not reuse role= because overloading that for both a low-level access API and general extensibility seems wrong. Using aria= seems better. And using aria-propertyname for the properties as that causes the least amount of trouble for everyone involved except for schema writers which should really be our last priority 16:36:15 and Henri said he was willing to make the schema 16:36:30 it seems that perhaps aria-role: would be more descriptive? I personally agree about overloading role 16:39:18 so aria= has the advantage that aria-properties= seem like properties for what aria= says 16:39:35 aria-role= would look like the properties 16:39:56 anne: i'm against making that change right now, it's not worth the work 16:39:58 DanC_lap has joined #html-wg 16:39:59 and also make people think we're forking the XHTML role module, which we don't really want I think 16:40:10 we're not overloading role, we're using it the same way 16:40:16 darn i gotta go, be back in 10 minutes 16:40:18 no we're not 16:40:37 anne: xhtml2 wg is fine with us using it this way, talk to rich 16:40:41 they agreed to it today 16:40:49 Steven has joined #html-wg 16:41:05 role= doesn't seem at all related to aria-properties which is problematic I think 16:41:07 bbiab 16:41:21 I think it makes more sense to have a consistent low-level API 16:41:37 "be back in a bit" 16:43:06 ChrisWilson : discussion on offline support is here in the music room at 11:45, right? 16:43:16 olivier has joined #html-wg 16:43:41 ia gree with anne on this, fwiw 16:45:46 Hixie - will you be able to join discussion about offline stuff? 16:47:04 MikeSmith, yes 16:47:52 Anne, I think you've highlighted why the ARIA guys wanted to have further discussion. If one more steel cage session resolves this issue, that would be a good thing. 16:48:23 Hixie: wanna talk offline at 5? 16:49:08 we'll be coming shortlly 16:49:37 ChrisWilson, well, I need to know what will be discussed first I guess 16:49:49 ChrisWilson, but yeah, maybe we can do more of this funny discussion 16:50:47 mauro has joined #html-wg 16:52:01 jgraham_ has joined #html-wg 16:53:38 i can be around tomorrow, i guess a discussion is scheduled for then 16:53:45 also rich is around today i believe 16:53:46 MarcinHanclik has joined #html-wg 16:53:55 9am tomorrow in President's D. 16:54:03 great 16:54:18 xhtml2 minutes should have what was discussed 16:54:32 but they anyway xhtml2 group is trying to sensibly accomodate html's needs now 16:54:56 http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-offline.html 16:56:20 justin has joined #html-wg 16:56:58 anne: i can see your arguments are somewhat reasonable but it's a lot of work for everyone to make that change 16:57:02 so i think it has to be a large enough gain to make it worth it 16:57:16 plus it is still political 16:57:31 i would really like to get past all this and do real work 16:57:42 i'm not sure how it's a lot of work 16:57:58 was adding support for aria-property a lot of work? 16:58:49 anne: yes but it was worth it 16:59:30 anne: i had to go find all the authors and get them to do the change, and not surprisingly many were confused 16:59:37 their examples broke because they didn't get it, etc. 16:59:44 and with the role change we'd also have to go change all the specs 17:00:04 no, we just merge this into HTML 5 17:00:09 with the aria- change we don't need to change much in the specs, because it's just a different include mechanism 17:00:16 anne: that's not good 17:00:20 but changing specs should be the least of our concern 17:00:36 i'm just pointing out that there's a payoff requirement for the work 17:00:41 i don't think html-wg is the right place to put it 17:00:50 because html-wg isn't the right palce to decide what roles there are 17:00:59 or what properties 17:01:03 that's already decided by the access APIs 17:01:19 anne: no, we also drive changes to accessibility apis 17:01:30 aaronlev: we could implement both as a transition path 17:01:37 have role="" and aria="" for a while 17:01:40 Hixie: we could, i guess 17:01:45 but i just don't think it's worth it 17:01:55 i mean if everyone's for it, i guess i have to do it 17:02:17 but i think html should allow another group to control what the attribute values mean 17:02:27 well the problem i see is that we really _don't_ want the aria-related role to be overloaded with all the... features... of "the" role attribute 17:02:27 specifically pfwg should do that 17:02:54 ok, sorry, I'm fine with that 17:02:54 Hixie: which don't you want? 17:03:09 anne: with what? 17:03:20 having the actual values etc. defined by the PFWG 17:03:24 cool 17:03:31 although I'd like them to define the processing stuff way more carefully 17:03:44 rich said that xhtml2 said today that other languages could use role and define their own processing, something like that 17:03:54 we need to read the minutes i guess or talk to them 17:04:03 so hixie doesn't that resolve your issue? 17:04:07 PIon has joined #html-wg 17:05:00 aaronlev: sorry in meeting can't really talk in real time now, will be slow 17:05:09 np 17:07:20 ChrisWilson: if that meeting could be at 10 then i can make it 17:08:20 aaronlev: role="http://this.is.a.long.uri/that/means#something-like-a-microformat" shouldn't have to interact with the low-level accessibility APIs like role="notify region" (or whatever it's called) 17:08:49 Hixie: Hixie i don't want that either 17:09:14 Hixie: for role extensibility, if we ever prove that we need it, which we might 17:09:25 i'd say the author should be able todefine a short name for it 17:09:53 and describe any new properties it has using a link to a json file, e.g. 17:10:06 ... if we get that far, the role would like like 17:10:11 role="buddylist listbox" 17:10:19 DanC_lap has joined #html-wg 17:10:20 aaronlev: i don't understand how the author could extend an MSAA API 17:10:26 with listbox being the fallback for older software that doesn't know how to process the json or know what buddylist is 17:10:43 Hixie: we have created IAccessible2 which is a sert of interfaces on top of MSAA 17:11:02 we have loosly spec'd object attributes now in all accessibility apis, for name value pairs 17:11:05 and we can invent new interfaces 17:11:11 aaronlev: right but that's UA-level innovation, not author-level 17:11:31 jgraham_ has joined #html-wg 17:11:48 Hixie: the UA innovation would not be to create enumerations for the new role 17:12:16 Hixie: the UA innovation would be to describe what the role inherits from, what it's properties are, the types for those properties, whether changes are relevant for presentatioin, and the localizations required 17:12:23 I still very sceptical about authors minting new roles 17:12:34 i've spoken with several screen reader vendors 17:12:38 this is not really a problem 17:12:49 it uses inheritance for one thing, so you aren't wrong if you use the fallback mechanism 17:13:19 you'll have to explain to me how this works 17:14:06 basically the AT can choose to look at the standard role, which is from the known set in MSAA/ATK 17:14:23 I expect this to require something like microformats.org for AT roles 17:14:26 or to look directly at the role string, in case a newer version has support for a newer role 17:14:38 or it can look at the object properties tat describe what to do with the new role 17:14:55 you can also script the AT to have special functionaility for a custom role 17:15:06 this is like JAWS scripts for the desktop now 17:15:11 only in this case the app is a web page 17:15:42 the object properties describe how to present a text version of the object and its properties and how to present changes to those properties 17:15:53 Do we still need a 4:00PM discussion of Tests, licensing/hosting? 17:16:29 so there are 3 ways the AT can handle it: 1) just fall back, 2) special code for new role, 3) use role+property description 17:16:40 and 2 can be either in core AT or in AT scripts 17:16:46 aaronlev - can perhaps you, Hixie anne and I share a table at lunch and discuss this? I'm trying to understand what we can/need to get out tomorrow's discussion 17:17:01 ChrisWilson: i didn't come in today, unfortunately 17:17:27 i can be avialble for a conf call after lunch 17:17:40 aroben has joined #html-wg 17:17:41 ChrisWilson: or catch rich schwerdtfeger 17:17:53 ok, i'll try to catch Rich 17:18:11 ChrisW: Rich is in #xhtml 17:18:57 If you're around on IRC after lunch, I'll let you know scheduling. 17:19:02 thanks oe 17:19:05 np 17:19:06 er, oedipus 17:19:16 you can call me oeddie 17:20:33 [lunchtime] 17:20:44 autocomplete would be better with brain input and machine learning 17:20:48 [dinnertime] ;-) 17:20:49 there are some STRANGE autocomplete implementations out their 17:20:50 :) 17:20:56 duh, there 17:21:06 not serious, in case anyone is worried 17:21:53 i just found out that in the google search box, a dropdown list appears when one begins to type -- same thing at ask.com -- which i discovered through sheer clumsiness (blind luck) 17:22:48 now that's a case where ARIA would help -- it would at least tell me that a dropdown was there 17:23:01 reconvene at 1:30. 17:24:02 gavin has joined #html-wg 17:24:23 MarcinHanclik has joined #html-wg 17:34:32 paullewis has joined #html-wg 17:42:49 timbl has joined #html-wg 18:05:19 smedero has joined #html-wg 18:10:00 dbaron has joined #html-wg 18:10:03 howcome has joined #html-wg 18:13:24 jgraham_ has joined #html-wg 18:13:39 mjs has joined #html-wg 18:14:21 myakura has joined #html-wg 18:16:02 ROBOd has joined #html-wg 18:16:47 Julian has joined #html-wg 18:20:13 MikeSmith has joined #html-wg 18:20:57 Chris has joined #html-wg 18:22:37 KevinLawver has joined #html-wg 18:23:13 KevinLawver - where you? 18:23:34 MikeSmith - right outside the meeting room talking to glazou 18:23:39 ah 18:23:41 Are we starting? 18:24:08 anne and ChrisWilson talking ... the rest of us are still digesting our baklava 18:24:23 on my way... 18:27:33 MarcinHanclik has joined #html-wg 18:27:47 Hixie: which session will you be in? 18:27:55 jgraham_ has joined #html-wg 18:28:30 Philip: in Opera? 18:28:41 hsivonen: Yes 18:29:45 Well, it's not really a cube, because it has some triangular holes in the side which shouldn't be there 18:30:51 olivier has joined #html-wg 18:31:56 karl has joined #html-wg 18:32:36 hober has joined #html-wg 18:33:59 justin has joined #html-wg 18:35:45 hsivonen: i'm in versioning 18:35:56 [waiting on Chris to get started] 18:36:23 http://sitesurgeon.co.uk/tables/ 18:36:38 plinss has joined #html-wg 18:36:56 MichaelC has joined #html-wg 18:37:27 [Chris plugs in to projector] 18:37:33 Scribenick: MikeSmith 18:37:49 CW: So ... versioning. 18:38:42 Slide from Chris: Once a web developer has written, tweaked and debugged their page to get it to work across browsers, the definition of "correct behavior" is "my page still works". 18:38:57 CW: Quirks mode is no longer that popular ... 18:39:28 ... back [sometime in the past] we found only 1 out of 200 sites that were in strict/standards mode ... 18:39:37 ... out of top 200 web sites ... 18:39:50 mikko_honkala has joined #html-wg 18:39:50 ... but did it recently and found ... 18:40:00 ... that 99 out of 200 were in strict/standards mode ... 18:40:30 IH: 3 modes in most browsers: Standards, Almost Standards, and Quirks 18:41:19 IH: where Almost Standards is Standards with the images-in-tables quirk 18:41:45 IH: Using the algorithm in HTML5, about 9% trigger Standards mode, ~20% trigger Almost Standards 18:41:54 Hixie, I see a G4-compatible power cord on this side of the table 18:41:55 IH: definitely a trend toward standards mode 18:42:23 CW mentions child-selector hack 18:42:48 explaining the 3 rendering modes http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Mozilla's_DOCTYPE_sniffing 18:42:58 ... which depended on a certain CSS feature being not-supported in IE ... 18:43:28 ... but after they fixed IE by adding that support, it broke all pages that rely on that hack ... 18:43:55 CW: people use library/frameworks that fix these problems for them ... 18:44:27 ... so they don't themselves know what specific problems exist ... 18:45:03 fantasai : How many problems are in CSS and how many in HTML? 18:45:26 CW: in IE7, vast majority were in CSS 18:45:31 anne has left #html-wg 18:45:38 fantasai : so why not put a version switch in CSS 18:45:42 anne has joined #html-wg 18:45:49 ChrisWilson : right now, we have a switch per-document 18:46:20 travis: CSS has this DOM appendage ... 18:46:42 The other problem is that the CSSWG has been against any form of versioning in the spec. 18:46:48 ChrisWilson : hard part is figuring out how to interop ... 18:47:30 http://james.html5.org/tables/table_inspector.html 18:47:37 mjs : using the term "Super Standards Mode" is misleading here, because what it sounds like what you want is an unbounded series of quirks mode ... 18:47:46 mjs++ 18:47:59 Marcos has joined #html-wg 18:49:07 mjs : Would it not be better to have an IE-specific switch? 18:49:21 q+ to ask if a version attribute will create issues 18:49:23 ChrisWilson : yeah, but it would need to be opt-in 18:50:32 plinss : I think everybody agrees your (ChrisWilson) logic is sound, withint your realm 18:51:38 ?: What if Firefox was in this situation? 18:52:04 ?: What if they were faced with making a change that would break a large number of pages. Wouldnt' they want a switch? 18:52:18 Hixie: I don't think we're deciding here whether a given browser should have its own set of switches. 18:52:52 s/?: What if Firefox/TravisLeithead: What if Firefox/ 18:53:16 David: I don't think we'd make a decision that compromised the ability of new browsers to enter the market. 18:53:17 s/?:/TravisLeithead:/ 18:54:10 Hixie explains that if each version of the dominant browser introduces a new mode that web sites can rely upon never to change, a version of the browser many years from now will have to implement 15 different layout modes 18:54:40 ... each full of undocumented bugs, and this makes it nearly impossible for a new browser to be created that is compatible with existing content. 18:54:58 justkirk has joined #html-wg 18:56:35 chris and hixie discuss how authors check their sites and develop pages 18:57:35 Chris: we're not expecting other browsers to get content that is written for those 15 compatibility modes 18:58:50 Dennis has joined #html-wg 18:59:27 ??: I don't think any of these problems you're discussing have anything to do with HTML version numbers. 18:59:56 s/??/KD 19:00:10 +q KevinLawver question about how long this is actually a problem... 19:00:26 Zakim, +q KevinLawver 19:00:26 I see karl, KevinLawver on the speaker queue 19:00:42 ack karl 19:00:42 karl, you wanted to ask if a version attribute will create issues 19:00:59 PIon has joined #html-wg 19:01:00 Molly joins 19:01:08 fantasai: exactly. "author signaling to MSIE to use mode X" has nothing to do with "author signalling which release of the HTML spec she was authoring to" 19:01:33 Hixie: I think we understand your position. What are your goals with this discussion? 19:01:52 Chris: I think I'm missing a lot of the subtleties from other points of view. 19:02:12 Chris doesn't think having the spec reflect reality and reality reflecting the spec is true (?) 19:02:50 ChrisWilson, Authors are not going to want to require a permanent opt-in that needs to be updated every time a new IE ships. We need to develop a solution that let's us phase out the requirement for an explicit, IE-only opt-in over time. 19:03:40 mjs has joined #html-wg 19:03:44 q+ to ask about the UA string 19:04:01 Hixie brings up again David's point about the multiple quirks modes making it inordinately difficult for new browsers to enter the market. 19:04:06 q- KevinLawver 19:04:10 Hixie: I don't think you understand the level to which we are scared. 19:04:10 molly has joined #html-wg 19:04:21 Zakim, q- KevinLawver 19:04:21 I see hsivonen on the speaker queue 19:04:36 scottv has joined #html-wg 19:04:56 KevinLawver, just do "q-" 19:05:27 Chris explains that he doesn't want the spec to be copying all of IE's problems 19:05:44 Chris: If FF and Opera do something reasonable and interoperable, we want to do that, not copy the insane bugs in IE 19:05:59 with Javascript, people relies on User Agent strings. Shall we remove them? 19:05:59 Marcos_ has joined #html-wg 19:06:12 Hixie asks a question I couldn't hear 19:07:11 mauro has joined #html-wg 19:07:18 Hixie: The model you follow intentionally with IE7 of basically praying that people will fix their pages and finding that about half the people fix their pages 19:07:25 Hixie: is the model that other browsers follow. 19:07:47 Chris: Well, you saw what happened with our market share. 19:07:53 olivier has joined #html-wg 19:08:01 Hixie: I think the rest of us are ok with that. 19:08:10 I don't think IE's market share is falling due to fixing too many bugs 19:08:27 Chris goes back to his argument that HTML version numbers will fix his problem. 19:08:28 shepazu has joined #html-wg 19:08:39 If so, because they fix workaround bugs before they fix the bugs they work around 19:09:12 Hsivonen: The approach that Apple took with the problem that content is written for certain UAs is that they made the UA string look close enough to the Firefox string that the sites that sniff it think it's Firefox 19:09:38 Hsivonen: and added other stuff so that statistics and later code can pick up on its existance. 19:09:50 Hsivonen: Are you planning a similar approache for IE7? 19:09:53 q- 19:10:00 Chris: Not everyone is using UA sniffing to do that. 19:10:14 Chris: They might be using conditional comments, or CSS hacks. 19:10:28 Chris: The other problem is that UA string parsing is not uniform. 19:10:42 Chris: E.g. we're super-scared when we hit two-digit version numbers. 19:10:50 Chris: A bunch of people will detect us as IE1 19:11:01 Hakon: I think part of the pain you're feeling is due to not updating often. 19:11:25 Hakon: We develop continuously 19:11:30 Hakon: We release often 19:11:42 Hakon: The pain is constant, but it is not a severe pain. 19:11:52 Hixie: Release early and release often should help a lot with this problem. 19:12:08 TL: How many desktops still have Firefox 1.5 on them? 19:12:14 Hixie: Very few. Because the update system is good. 19:12:24 hmmm strategies of breaking stability for avoiding people developing for bugs 19:12:29 break the habits 19:12:42 or more about not creating habits 19:12:56 Chris has joined #html-wg 19:13:01 TL: We will be continuing to service the old browser with its bad quirks for years, due to its deployment in industry. 19:13:21 Rousseau. The only good habit for a child is to not get any. 19:13:23 TL: Forcing someone's corporation to adapt to an ever-changing platform is a tough choice 19:13:31 q? 19:13:34 TL: I guess it's why we're in favor of the opt-in 19:13:51 TL: If we guarantee that their old content will work when we redeploy, it's much safer. 19:14:16 Hakon: This was tried when quirks mode was introduced. 19:14:27 Hakon: Those who went into standards mode, opted for standards. 19:14:52 Molly: Most of the doctypes out there are not chosen by people. They're generated by authoring tools. The authors don't know that they opted in. 19:15:16 Chris: Whether or not they opted in on purpose, they were opting in to something that meant the same for all browsers: give me the right behavior. 19:15:33 Chris: I think the thing that concerns me is that we'll have to end up do ing an opt-in that is IE-specific. 19:16:18 Chris gives an example of author choosing IE9, or something, I couldn't tell 19:16:34 Hakon: So you're asking for a continuous series of opt-ins 19:16:55 Chris says something convoluted 19:17:14 How many desktops have FF1.3? Maybe, Boeing, say, is reluctant to change--we were told that. 19:17:15 Chris: I don't know that we'll be done with only one more switch. 19:17:48 Chris asked for a way to date your understanding of standards 19:17:51 Chris: If a year from now, people start writing HTML5 ....... 19:18:17 Hixie: That's a reason not to have a version switch in HTML. The cycle of HTML is much much greater than that of a browser. 19:18:24 gavin, Travis from MS 19:18:32 Hixie: I honestly think it will take at least 10 years to standardize HTML. 19:18:33 gavin_ : TL is Travis Leithead from MS 19:18:42 Hixie: HTML4 which was 9 years ago still isn't done. 19:18:55 Hixie: Even if it's 5 years, it's still longer than browser releases. 19:19:04 Hixie: That's the longest you've gone, and by your own admission it's too long. 19:19:12 Hixie: I don't think an HTML version switch will solve your use case. 19:19:31 Chris: Here's the case I'm worried about. 19:19:38 Chris: We have to do opt-ins to make sure we don't break content today. 19:19:51 Chris: Simultaneously HTML5 is under development, and eventually will get stamped as a standard. 19:20:01 Chris: And at that point content will be written that is stamped as HTMl5. 19:20:18 Chris: At some point that content will reach a threshold, say 20%. 19:20:54 Chris: After that point, we can't make content break. So we 19:21:02 'll need an opt-in switch for the next version of IE 19:21:36 q? 19:22:23 Elika brings up again that HTML version switch isn't what Chris is looking for. 19:22:29 Chris repeats his arguments 19:23:09 Hixie: the problem is this. 19:23:28 Hixie: The idea of the spec is that you implement it once, and it will work for the overwhelming majority of content. 19:23:46 Hixie: it is impossible for all content to work, because some of that content will be written for a specific version of a specific browser. 19:23:58 Hixie: But we can get the overwhelming majority. 19:24:18 Hixie: My goal for the spec is to write a definition that if you match the spec, you'll have a browser that will handle the overwhelming majority of content. 19:24:35 Hixie: You won't handle content that is deeply IE-specific, but you'll handle the overwhelming majority of content. 19:24:52 Hixie: All browsers can have their own private extensions, that's independent of this; 19:25:17 q? 19:25:40 --q 19:25:59 q- molly 19:26:36 q+ molly 19:26:47 thanks Karl 19:27:32 Elika: why can't you do opt-out to IE-version-specific behavior instead? 19:27:35 ack molly 19:27:40 Molly: This is a difficult core issue that I'm experiencing as someone who works between vendors, specs, and workers of the wild web. 19:28:20 Molly: We cannot, whatever solution we come up with, we cannot expect that authors will be able to take on the responsibility for adding the switch. 19:28:38 Molly: Let me give a case scenario. You're company X and you hire web design company B to do your stuff. THey're done, they ship it to you. 19:28:49 Molly: Then suddenly it breaks. 19:29:09 Molly: The masses are not where we are. That's just a fact. 19:29:47 Molly: This is not opt-in. 19:29:54 Molly: They don't get it. 19:29:54 kazuhito has joined #html-wg 19:30:01 Hakon: Shouldn't we expect that much? 19:30:18 q+ to talk about tools 19:30:26 Hakon: I would expect that when you put a declaration at the top, either there is some thinking either on the part of the author or on the part of the tool vendor. 19:30:42 Molly: You can't trust that. 19:30:46 Wouldn't that then put the onus on the tool vendors? Where's Steve Zilles? 19:30:50 Hakon: So how do you trust versioning? 19:30:56 Hakon: How does that solve your problem? 19:31:00 Molly: I don't know. 19:31:35 Karl: We're getting mails from people trying to sue W3C because of the doctype 19:32:04 gavin has joined #html-wg 19:32:05 Molly: we can't trust authors to do the right thing. 19:32:12 Molly: There are huge gaps in their education. 19:32:15 q+ Henri 19:32:34 Hakon: I think we understand. But since versioning doesn't solve that problem, it's not relevant to this discussion. 19:32:37 ack henri 19:32:39 q+ 19:33:15 s/trying to sue/threatening to sue/ 19:33:33 Molly says she's objecting to requiring authors to opt in 19:33:44 Chris: I'm not sure you understand what the tool has to generate. 19:34:27 Chris: If our tools don't generate work in IE, we have a problem. 19:35:16 Chris: So we could have a tool that generates a switch that locks us in to the current version of IE. 19:35:34 Chris: The problem is that we're proliferating that switch. 19:37:24 timbl_ has joined #html-wg 19:38:03 Elika: So you want to generate an HTML version number that will match and trigger an IE layout mode. 19:38:06 Chris: yeah 19:38:36 Hsivonen: So wouldn't it make just as much sense to use an IE version number or a datestamp? 19:38:37 peterl has joined #html-wg 19:39:37 DanC_lap has joined #html-wg 19:39:41 http://www.google.com/search?num=20&hl=en&safe=off&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=meta++creationdate+content+name&spell=1 19:40:00 19:40:04 Peter explains scenario that an HTML5 document is written for IE8 19:40:11 19:40:17 jgraham_ has joined #html-wg 19:40:19 IE8 has bugs, so author makes some hacks. 19:40:30 19:40:31 Then IE9 comes out with fixes for those bugs in HTML 5 19:40:36 already 3 ways 19:40:47 It's the same standard, different behavior in IE 19:40:52 19:41:13 jgraham_ has joined #html-wg 19:41:15 19:41:31 Peter: You'll need to add addition atriggers to get the right behavior for HTML5 in IE9 19:41:38 etc. 19:41:43 19:41:55 Peter: What you want is the author to say "I made this page for HTML5 and IE8". 19:42:05 Chris: If we could get authors to say that, that would be great. 19:43:17 David Baron: Hacks like the child-selector hack are bad when targetting the current version of a UA. They're fine for old UAs. 19:44:14 timbl has joined #html-wg 19:44:16 Peter: There is no perfect solution. 19:44:17 rm -rf web.* 19:44:37 let's start fresh 19:44:49 karl: Isn't that xhtml2? 19:45:01 zakim? 19:45:03 Peter: Putting a version in the HTML doesn't necessarily line up with putting version sin browsers 19:45:11 FYI: http://www.webstandards.org/2005/11/27/pandoras-box-model-of-css-hacks-and-other-good-intentions/ 19:45:44 The problem is that the hacks became ingrained because we were stuck with IE6 for so long. Doesn't this problem go away when IE6 does? 19:45:51 David: So, I think trying to solve this in anyway is potentially more dangerous, potentially creates a bigger problem than what we're trying to fix. 19:45:54 q+ oe 19:45:59 Peter: But ignoring the problem isn't making it go away. 19:46:00 ack Chris 19:46:00 ChrisWilson, you wanted to talk about tools 19:46:03 dbaron++ 19:46:04 (done) 19:46:09 Peter: There has to be a solution. 19:46:10 KevinLawver: assuming IEN release cycles are shorter than the 6-to-7 one, sure 19:46:11 ack oe 19:46:17 implementors are constantly asking for users to justify their concerns and use cases -- where is the "proof" that what crude tools we have at our disposal are the products of user-driven demand, rather than the product of convenience and perceived market-advantage on the part of implementors? 19:46:17 there are three layers of users being addressed by HTML5: developers, implementors/authors and end-users, and end-user concerns must be accorded the bang important in this cascade -- not the artificial marketplace created by individual developers which limits the choices available to implementors/authors, and hence compromises the user's ability to utilize the native mechanisms of a markup language, due to the restraints imposed upon the user by developers 19:46:20 ack oedipus 19:46:26 oedipus? 19:46:30 David: But there doesn't have to be a solution that creates a bigger problem than it fixes. 19:46:30 hober, I think we have that commitment from Mr. Wilson and crew. 19:46:52 thx, just a sec 19:46:53 Peter: We all want to get to the point where everyone implements the same standard interoperably. 19:47:09 Hakon: I don't see how extending the matrix will make it smaller. 19:47:46 Chris: I'm going to have to extend the matrix anyway. I want to make the default over time the stuff that we really want, and the stuff that's IE8-specific, IE9-specific goes away 19:48:21 Hakon: Every other switch that we've introduced in the past, we haven't been able to get rid of. 19:48:31 Hakon: If we had N switches, and we add another one, we have N+1 19:48:31 How about considering (thinking about) how natural language handles the same problem of changing languages and vocabularies, changing readers and their educations, and changing dictionaries, contexts and uttterance types? 19:48:46 oedipus++ 19:48:58 Hakon: We had ua strings, and then we added quirks mode. 19:49:06 Hakon: But quirks mode didn't make ua strings go away. 19:49:15 Hakon: I don't see versioning making either of them go away. 19:49:26 Chris reads oedipus' quote 19:50:22 oedipus, what did you mean by "and hence compromises the user's ability to utilize the native mechanisms of a markup language, due to the restraints imposed upon the user by developers "? 19:50:42 I think you're saying "users have to win"? 19:50:47 there are many things in HTML 4.01 that were added for very specific reasons, but weren't supported 19:51:07 is user == web developer or == end user? 19:51:23 end users have to win -- that is ultimately ALL our target audience -- 19:51:32 oedipus +++ 19:51:40 ok. Thx. 19:51:54 tools are made for peoples' use, not the other way around, is what i'm trying to say 19:51:57 oedipus, added for reason X doesn't mean that it solves problem X 19:51:58 Any further points on this discussion? or can we move on? 19:52:59 Topic: HTML5 for authors 19:53:02 JonathanJ has joined #html-wg 19:53:03 hsivonen, but when you have 2 groups (UA devs and assisstive tech devs) waiting for the other to implement feature X, and one can't until the other does, that doesn't mean reason X DIDN'T solve problem X 19:54:42 Karl: In the beginning the spec was only for implementors. Slowly people accepted that parts of the spec were for authors, explaining requirements of HTML5 for authors. 19:54:55 Karl: But that part of the text is incomprehensible to normal human beings. 19:55:33 Karl: Putting something understandable in the document will confuse the impelementors, or will be hard to understand for authors 19:55:39 Karl: So we need a separate document for authors. 19:55:58 Karl: How will we do this? 19:56:30 Ben: I support that we need to help authors with this. 19:56:40 (Ben == Ben Millard) 19:57:18 TL: We're seeing the same problem, authors need to search the web to see e.g. what element can be contained in what. 19:57:29 Tl: We need to write this. 19:57:37 TL: We also need to get this information to the authors. 19:58:07 Molly: I think we can do that. It's very important that we make very clear documentation. Once we have quality stuff, I think getting the word out is less of a problem. 19:58:30 justin has joined #html-wg 19:58:51 Scott: Going back to the versioning discussion for a bit -- we're having problems getting authors to write these things, but when did we ever tell them to do it? 19:59:00 done 19:59:08 (or in progress :) ) 19:59:09 Karl: First we need to extract the requirements 19:59:14 Karl: extract the content models 19:59:19 q+ is an ancillary Primer being asked for? 19:59:23 Karl: Then write scenarios explaining these. 19:59:36 q+ Primer? 19:59:38 Karl: One person can't do everything for this kind of document 19:59:48 Karl: So I would suggest we define a kind of template 19:59:59 q- Primer? 20:00:07 Karl: For each element, you have to give this information, this is content model, here are two examples, here is reference material. 20:00:31 q+ Pion, Is it a primer you want? 20:00:34 Karl: It would be good if those who can reach out to authors put this information where authors will find them 20:00:39 PIon: do q+ to ask bla bla bla 20:00:42 scott, what about http://www.w3.org/TR/ATAG10 and http://www.w3.org/TR/ATAG20 in conjunction with http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/ and http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/ 20:00:58 q+ 20:01:09 Molly: I think if we create a bullet list of things the author needs to do, that would be great 20:01:44 Molly: Like you said, before we didn't communicate what we wanted authors to write 20:02:13 Molly: Many people aren't at a good level of understanding of standards. it's improving over time. 20:02:45 Molly: HTMl5 is a great opportunity to improve that. 20:03:01 Karl: We should also consider the question of style. Authors can't read and understand the w3c documents 20:03:22 Patrick: We should write a Primer 20:03:41 (Most w3c primers aren't exactly easy reading either) 20:03:45 Patrick: other working groups have a similar set of parallel documents: a very dry spec and a primer 20:04:07 Molly: I think the issue is that we need to understand our audience. 20:04:13 Molly: Implementors need one language. 20:04:19 Molly: Authors need a completely different language. 20:04:30 Molly: and sometimes vendors need yet another language 20:04:42 Molly: If there's anything I can do to bridge into author-land, that's what I'm here for. 20:05:04 plinss has joined #html-wg 20:05:28 Molly: vendors = tools authors, system technology vendors 20:05:31 Karl: validators 20:05:39 Molly: CMS developers 20:06:13 arun_ has joined #html-wg 20:06:18 TL: A third tier is the garage programmer, very very simplistic view with lots and lots of examples. 20:06:30 TL describes a recipe book, almost. I want to make a chat program, I want to make a forum. 20:06:43 Kevin: This is why we have people like Molly and Eric Meyer 20:06:54 Kevin: W3C doesn't need to provide every single application and best practice. 20:07:15 Is it not expected that the literature around the spec will evolve as it has for earlier HTML specs? 20:07:15 Kevin: The primer should be short, sweet, from what you know now to what you need to know 20:07:32 Karl: How do we organize the main primer and how do we link to best practices, e.g. on the wiki 20:07:42 Elika: I think you should put the whole thing on the wiki 20:08:16 examples: Mozilla wiki, php wiki 20:08:24 Yahoo and BBC publishing best practices 20:08:25 justin has joined #html-wg 20:08:41 Molly: A lot of large organizations will be helpful in bringing good communication 20:09:07 Molly: We need to facilitate that effort. It's almost like a liaison role 20:09:28 A wiki is a fine example of a new style of channel that might be used in the new situation here. It should be as much as possible actually using the technology being explained. 20:10:54 [MikeSmith stops by the HTML Authoring session and notes there are 20+ people in attendance] 20:11:22 Elika: A lot of large corporations need to develop good documentation on best practices, etc for their own web developers. If they collaborated, they'd each get more out of it. 20:11:58 Elika: This is similar to Mozilla: HP, IBM, Sun each had their own OS and needed a web browser. Instead of building a new one, they contributed to the mozilla project and ported it to their OS. 20:12:24 Elika: Our role, like the Mozilla Organization, would be to facilitate that coordination 20:12:51 Molly, Karl: We should form a liaison group to do that. 20:13:20 Karl: What does AOL use? 20:13:25 Kevin: Drupal. Or a wiki. 20:13:26 You could perhaps start an XG of people interested in writing about the new HTML situation. 20:13:47 Kevin: I had a conversation with Kai from Mobile Web Best practice about dropping the M and making it just Web Best Practice. 20:15:07 Kevin +++ 20:15:16 Kevin: people in my world don't understand the difference between the spec, the impl, and the best practices around that. 20:15:26 I'm having trouble finding the messages from public-html but it was said that the JAWS and other companies/group implementing AT technology have been invited to the W3C process over and over... and yet they aren't participating. It would be nice to at least understand why they aren't... I mean maybe they feel there are serious legal concerns or ??? but I think to the common working group member - their silence on AT issues in the HTML5 spec defies logic. 20:15:49 Kevin: Best practices bubble up. And they change. 20:16:02 smedero I've experienced that as well, and do not quite understand it 20:16:23 Kevin: The best practices when the Zen Garden came out are not the same as they are today. 20:16:30 1 hr 20:16:37 smedero, they have a shortage of bodies -- they are relying on stadards harmonization or else they are busy writing custom scripts for individual applications 20:16:56 make that "standards harmonization" 20:17:01 Molly: What I'm thinking is finding those people that are interested in sitting and listening and working with the HTMLWG 20:17:24 Molly: and have a conversation, working on a document, and put it out in the wild 20:17:30 Molly: and then the best practices bubble up 20:17:43 grammatically-speaking 20:18:02 molly, there is the open source a11y project: http://www.oatsoaft.org/ - and the NVDA project (received mozilla grant) 20:18:08 Kevin: I love the ideal, but I'm not convinced... 20:18:28 Kevin: People have more good intentions than they have time. 20:18:45 Ben: The i18n team has been writing faqs etc on character encoding 20:19:03 smedero & molly, another challange for small AT companies is supporting multiple versions of a particular operating system 20:19:32 Molly: the i18n group's documents are considerably more clear than the rest of w3c stuff, for a topic that is much more obscure than other w3c technologies 20:21:12 primers and best practices are non-normative. 20:21:45 smedero & molly, not that i don't personally think that they have an excuse -- if they helped push for harmonization, things might be a good deal easier 20:22:21 timbl has joined #html-wg 20:22:31 hsivonen, that's why there will be tech editing for the primers. 20:22:37 Hsivonen: there's a risk that the best practices will include recommendations that don't really make a difference 20:22:59 Hsivonen: and the author has no way to know if fixing that is a waste of their time. 20:23:09 Karl: It's not about forcing, it's about suggesting. 20:23:59 -> http://alistapart.com/articles/readspec/ A List Apart's article on How to Read W3C Specs 20:24:20 Zaxim, +q kevinlawver to ask about w3c's "purpose" 20:24:44 it's q+ 20:24:45 q+ kevinLawver to ask about w3c's purpose 20:24:56 :_ 20:24:59 :) 20:25:18 why does kevin remind me of arnold horschak at the moment? 20:25:31 q+ to mention semantics 20:25:33 ooh ooh ooh, Mr. Kotter!! 20:26:11 Lachy_ has joined #html-wg 20:27:06 Hsivonen explains that one group gets their practices enshrined in W3C document, and another group that does differently but doesn't break anything doesn't 20:27:11 ack kev 20:27:11 kevinLawver, you wanted to ask about w3c's purpose 20:27:23 I think there's a difference between best practice and convention. 20:27:36 Documenting convention is fine, but you shouldn't call it best practice. 20:27:38 and now they're against the W3C best practices, and have to waste their time to fi their stuff 20:28:29 q+ to say W3C specs usually are more successful when somebody markets them, Best Practices is one good way to do that 20:28:42 q- later 20:28:49 Kevin: Is this the W3C's role? We can't as the HTMLWG answer this question. this goes to the tag or ab or ac to say we are going to get into documenting best practices and stand behind them and say this is what it means to be professional 20:29:15 q+ 20:29:25 q- olivier 20:30:06 Molly: The issue here is critical. As former group lead of WaSP, I know that it is impossible for volunteer organization to play the role of "we are best practices". 20:30:46 Molly: Jeffrey Zeldman, who is looked upon as being next to God wrt standards, said "what problem are we facing in web standards, I see no problem, as long as we have xhtml and css2 we have no problem" 20:30:53 Molly: And that's just dumb 20:31:21 Molly: We need some quality assurance. We need to shift [to where??] 20:31:31 Molly: making best practices happen 20:31:58 Molly: simplified, clarified information that is separate from the specs that is not only published by W3C but also extended into the community 20:32:08 Molly: Say this is what we have studied as a problem. 20:32:11 ack pion 20:32:15 Molly: This is a critically missing piece 20:32:31 (i'll do this in IRC so we can get to the queue) I'm not saying it shouldn't happen at all. Just that this needs to be an effort in the W3C as a whole to provide the bounds. 20:32:54 Patrick: I'm all in favor of educational documentation, but people have to figure out for themselves how to do it. 20:32:54 ack MichaelC 20:32:54 MichaelC, you wanted to say W3C specs usually are more successful when somebody markets them, Best Practices is one good way to do that 20:32:58 q- 20:33:07 @pion The best practices come out of people "figuring this out for themselves" 20:33:22 MichaelC: I agree with Molly, W3C Specifications are more successful when someone markets them. I think a lot of W3C specs have suffered from lack of marketing. 20:33:43 MichaelC: In the case of HTML this is really important. If the developer community understands the spec, they will demand implementations. 20:33:59 MichaelC: I'm not going to advocate for a mechanism: best practices is one of them. 20:34:06 ack db 20:34:10 MichaelC: I don't care if W3C does the marketing or someone else, it must get done. 20:34:11 ack dbaron 20:34:17 MichaelC +++ 20:34:33 David Baron: I think there's a difference between best practice and convention, and it's fine to document each one, but you shouldn't label convention as best practice. 20:34:52 Molly: I agree, that's why we want liaison with the working group. 20:34:57 zakim, q+ kevinlawver to ask about personality cults 20:34:57 I see kevinlawver on the speaker queue 20:35:24 Molly, Justin: Yeah, we need an alternative to Jeffrey Zeldman declaring his conventions as THE way to do things. 20:35:32 ack kev 20:35:32 kevinlawver, you wanted to ask about personality cults 20:35:41 Kevin: If it's just part of one working group, especially this one, there's still a danger of this becoming a personality cult. 20:35:44 @KevinLawver quite so; I would worry that a spec has to be written here, and indeed a language is still to be finally developed; not all 300+ persons in the WG can or will be able to contriute to that. 20:36:24 Kevin: We do have these cults, and there's sometimes there's a lack of critical thinking. We can't let this become a personality cult. 20:36:52 Molly: I suggest we take this off the HTMLWG, and talk with the Architecture group and see if a liaison/QA group is something we need to revisit in this time and age. 20:37:26 s/contriute/contribute/ 20:37:38 Olivier: One thing, if you want to avoid the cult of personality, then maybe having it under the umbrella of W3C 20:37:46 Olivier: Second thing, the TAG won't care. That's not a problem. 20:37:57 Molly: They were interested enough to come to me. 20:38:22 Olivier: It would take awhile for this to go through the whole process. I think the HTMLWG has a chance of making it happen. 20:38:33 Olivier: If you're waiting for Members to submit, vote, charter, it will take years. 20:38:34 zakim, +q kevinlawver to suggest a guerilla + "proper" approach 20:38:34 I see kevinlawver on the speaker queue 20:38:41 q+ to say "task force 20:38:48 q- 20:39:04 Molly: So should we create a new group with this.. 20:39:09 Elika: Task force. Make a task force. 20:39:32 s/not a problem/not their problem/ 20:39:46 Elika: I would sign up for HTMLWG to join that task force. 20:39:51 Molly and Kevin raise their hands. 20:40:01 ack kev 20:40:01 kevinlawver, you wanted to suggest a guerilla + "proper" approach 20:40:05 Kevin: The spec will take until 2010 at least. 20:40:12 Kevin: So we have two(?) choices: 20:40:25 Kevin: We can go guerilla, and do this partly on our own. 20:40:43 Kevin: And slowly start to approach the TAG etc and later fold it into the official group 20:40:56 strike "choices" line 20:41:24 Karl: I will take an action item to make a proposal on the mailing list for the creation of a task force 20:41:32 q+ PIon to say you need a real spec as a basis 20:41:32 q+ PIon to say you need a real spec as a basis 20:41:33 Karl: Around HTML5 for Authors 20:41:38 q- 20:41:56 [break declared] 20:42:43 breaktime 20:42:44 ACTION: Karl to make a proposal on the mailing list for the creation of a task force for developer community outreach 20:42:44 Sorry, couldn't find user - Karl 20:43:23 trackbot-ng, status 20:47:49 trackbot-ng, reload 20:47:49 Reloading Tracker config 20:47:49 Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/ 20:47:53 trackbot-ng, status 20:48:15 ACTION: Karl to make a proposal on the mailing list for the creation of a task force for developer community outreach 20:48:15 Created ACTION-5 - Make a proposal on the mailing list for the creation of a task force for developer community outreach [on Karl Dubost - due 2007-11-16]. 20:52:04 if we do that in a wiki, it's great because it can be updated anytime by anybody 20:52:38 however it's not that great because it'll be so hard catching up translating them... 20:52:49 RRSAgent, draft minutes 20:52:49 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/09-html-wg-minutes.html mauro 20:59:26 olivier has joined #html-wg 21:01:08 mikko_honkala has joined #html-wg 21:05:23 plinss has joined #html-wg 21:08:34 arun_ has joined #html-wg 21:08:39 JonathanJ has left #html-wg 21:09:02 jgraham_ has joined #html-wg 21:09:09 Topic: TESTS: Licensing, hosting, etc. 21:10:02 anne, hacking html5lib at 17:00 or tomorrow? 21:10:20 17:00 wfm, depending on what else gets proposed 21:12:01 HS: asks about CSS test licensing 21:12:14 EE: differs 21:12:32 EE: tests are on dev.w3.org, pulled nightly and build, then put on www.w3.org 21:13:51 hacking html5lib added at 17:00 21:15:14 plinss has joined #html-wg 21:15:18 peterl has joined #html-wg 21:17:13 http://html5.org/parsing-tests/testrunner.htm 21:17:28 http://csswg.inkedblade.net/test/css2.1 21:17:42 http://csswg.inkedblade.net/test/css2.1/review might be particularly interesting 21:18:48 when where is the html5lib hacking happening? 21:18:54 [discussion about hosting tests and organizing] 21:19:08 (I see 17:00... unclear on date and location) 21:19:24 html5lib hacking will be in B and about integrating support for SVG and MathML and such in text/html 21:19:52 Ok... not quite where I'm using it right now but I'm still interested. 21:20:02 q+ to say I would prefer it were handled separately 21:20:23 q- 21:20:40 Anne suggests using a manifest file saying which files are valid and which invalid 21:20:52 Hixie suggests using just a list of invalid tests and assuming the rest are valid 21:22:05 olivier has left #html-wg 21:24:10 shawn has joined #html-wg 21:25:19 discuss whether we need both HTML and XHTML versions of tests 21:25:31 Anne explains that dev.w3.org has an automatic checkout directory 21:25:45 so that tests are browseable once they're checked in 21:26:10 http://twitter.com/kplawver/statuses/401920792 21:27:37 e.g. http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/CSS/CSS2.1-test-suite/cooked-tests/bz/t0402-syntax-02-f.xht vs http://dev.w3.org/CSS/CSS2.1-test-suite/cooked-tests/bz/t0402-syntax-02-f.xht 21:28:01 Hsivonen notes that the CSS2.1TS naming convention of using a test-topic string is useful 21:28:23 See http://csswg.inkedblade.net/test/css2.1/format#filename-format 21:28:55 dbaron wants the test format to have few requirements so that it is easy to write and contribute them 21:30:15 ppl want to have tests on their own sites rather than only centralized 21:30:48 dbaron lists some problems: knowing how to correlate between the two copies, having one defined as authoritative 21:31:00 dbaron: also someetimes there are problems with the owner being unresponsive 21:31:17 olivier has joined #html-wg 21:36:51 Hixie: it is academic discussion until someone decides to actually do it 21:37:38 fantasai: if there are many people with their own repository. Nobody should be writing on dev.w3.org 21:38:08 ... there should be only a mechanism to pull the tests from official repositories to the w3c server. 21:38:57 ... having two repositories for each person (personal + w3c) would not be convenient 21:39:19 ... the final authoritative repository should be w3.org 21:39:58 What I'm saying is, there has to be a clear authoritative version for each set of tests 21:40:15 either dev.w3.org is the authoritative version, or some group's personal repository is the authoritative version 21:40:48 anne: we should update the wiki with pointers to places with tests 21:41:00 personal websites should NOT be authoritative versions: in that case dev.w3.org should be authoritative and the person must make their personal copy a checkout of dev.w3.org and push their changes to dev.w3.org 21:41:04 (with DVCS, you don't have the authoritative version problem) 21:41:12 +1 to dev.w3.org for authoritative versions 21:41:15 ... it seems there are not yet a will to move everything to w3c servers 21:41:17 This is because if the person stops being active, it is no longer to change their files 21:41:33 hixie: but the reason would be to have all tests in one place 21:41:48 You can have two directories on w3: one that pulls from other groups' repositories and one that is authoritative for individuals to check into 21:41:53 but don't mix them 21:42:36 dbaron: the argument seems to be more around distributed version control more than testing repositories 21:42:49 hrm, I don't think that's what I said 21:42:58 I just said that people seem to be making an argument for distributed version control 21:43:13 which is what i have typed 21:43:37 not really 21:43:42 :))) 21:43:46 funny 21:44:40 do I need to pull the sock puppet out again? 21:45:13 we need puppets 21:45:48 fantasai: which tests are not in the repository? 21:45:57 anne is going through the list 21:46:25 Philip - you around? where you keeping the source for your tests? 21:47:17 oedipus I think this entire week has been surreal enough without adding sock puppetry, mime and interpretive dance 21:47:21 scottv has joined #html-wg 21:47:23 and would mime require a MIME type? 21:47:35 mime-type="silent+reflection/serenity" 21:47:45 sorry :P 21:47:55 MikeSmith, the official source for my canvas tests is on my local disk, which occasionally gets uploaded to http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/source.tar.bz2 21:48:31 oh no, Chris.... go crazy. Let's see some sock puppet action. 21:48:41 fantasai: you don't want contributions on your own tests 21:48:56 hixie: it is more than I don't want to open the access to my web site. 21:48:56 Philip - thanks. we talking here about possibility of consolidating some tests into central repository 21:49:15 Not necessarily a central repository 21:49:19 ... I accept contributions through emails 21:49:25 ... and I fix the test myself 21:49:58 But ways of organising testcases; the question of version control has come up 21:50:42 http://philip.html5.org/ 21:50:42 http://simon.html5.org/test/ 21:50:42 http://tc.labs.opera.com/ 21:50:42 http://hixie.ch/tests/ 21:51:00 http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/ 21:52:37 MikeSmith, I think I prefer doing things locally for active development (since it's just easier and less hassle), but when things are mostly complete and stable (like the canvas tests) I'd be happy to move them elsewhere 21:52:53 fantasai: if the tests are licensed appropriately (and I think they are), then we just take a snapshot and move them to W3C. Would be my vote, anyway. 21:52:55 Philip - understood 21:53:09 what ChrisWilson said 21:53:19 http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/wa10/ 21:53:28 and then what happens when you fix something? Are you going to tell people to fix the W3C copy? 21:53:37 (in fact i said that earlier -- when a test project dies, you just call the w3 backup the main source) 21:53:48 http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/ 21:54:18 tantek has joined #html-wg 21:54:18 if there's active development, the baton passes back to Hixie's version. 21:54:26 hi ta 21:54:39 ChrisWilson: the baton can pass back to hixie's version only if someone else isn't simultaneously using the baton 21:54:47 (mine are more like demos in anne's and zcorpan's vocabulary) 21:55:50 I think we can be clear. If tests are languishing, we'll ask the author if we can move the "master" to W3C. If they want them back, we will hand them back. 21:56:01 ok, so I guess we'll sync with DanC_lap and do a dump somewhere 21:56:09 ok, but make sure you're very very obvious about where the master is 21:56:12 and dont' split it per-test 21:56:16 split it per-directory 21:56:32 sure 21:56:37 karl - how so? 21:56:46 w3.org/html/tests/hixie/ ... or something 21:56:52 the large room of silent people? 21:57:05 a bit of that 21:57:11 I guess this satisfies the low voice problem. 21:57:14 /mode #html-wg +m 21:57:17 someone can put music 21:57:35 but I fear there will be debate on the style or conventions of music 21:57:49 gigs again! 21:58:15 the floor is not good for hip-hop and breakdance 21:58:17 myakura_ has joined #html-wg 21:58:38 http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/F2F 22:00:35 [adjourned this session - hacking html5lib is on now] 22:04:12 http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/ 22:04:12 ACTION: Michael(tm) to create script for building PDF version of HTML5 spec using Prince 22:04:12 Created ACTION-6 - Create script for building PDF version of HTML5 spec using Prince [on Michael(tm) Smith - due 2007-11-16]. 22:04:19 http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/source 22:04:49 PIon has joined #html-wg 22:05:08 DanC_ has joined #html-wg 22:05:28 sync with me on what? 22:05:33 http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/source 22:05:44 DanC_, hosting location for tests on w3.org 22:05:46 PIon has joined #html-wg 22:06:26 how did the discussion of mercurial/hg go? 22:06:37 DanC_ - nowhere 22:06:38 yet 22:06:46 smedero has joined #html-wg 22:07:03 decentralized version control relaxes a lot of hosting constraints 22:07:45 yep. Nobody disagreeing with that 22:08:06 I use hgsvn sometimes, but I think it only goes one way, svn->hg; the options for getting the toothpaste back in the tube are not so good 22:09:16 maybe wget is our friend. 22:09:48 are there any distributed SCMs that allow you to pull just a single folder? 22:10:17 I think hg is growing that feature; I'm not sure how mature it is 22:15:07 git has something similar, IIRC 22:15:52 wiki suggests it's not mature; http://www.selenic.com/mercurial/wiki/index.cgi/PartialClone 22:16:27 MikeSmith$ sleep 3600 22:23:29 PDFIon has joined #html-wg 22:27:16 anne: where's the html5lib stuff happening? 22:28:00 moreover, what's happening with dinner? 22:28:31 hsivonen, In room B 22:28:50 and I don't know, respectively 22:38:14 Marcos_ has joined #html-wg 22:40:12 jgraham_ has joined #html-wg 22:41:26 jgraham_ has joined #html-wg 22:49:41 gavin has joined #html-wg 22:54:07 smedero has joined #html-wg 22:55:04 mjs has joined #html-wg 22:56:00 mjs: are you looking for chris wilson, hsivonen, etc? 22:56:14 mjs: that group just left for dinner a minute or so ago. 22:56:33 smedero: I'm waiting around for Hixie and whoever else can be rustled up at this point 22:56:40 smedero: do not expect to be able to find them now 22:56:46 ahh, ok. just double checking :) 22:56:51 hixie was just here 22:57:03 i don't think he left with that group 22:57:05 Hixie went up to his room, I'm waiting for him in the lobby 22:57:08 ahh, ok 22:57:09 heh 22:57:41 mike smith mentioned to me a group was meeting up in the lobby to head out to dinner, so I though i'd tag along if there is space. 22:57:49 but it is a little unclear which 'group' that is. :/ 22:58:50 smedero: might be the same one I am in, which I think is kind of vague at this point 23:05:21 but... but... they said they proudly brew it! 23:05:24 it says so right on the cup 23:05:27 heh 23:10:39 sbuluf has joined #html-wg 23:13:36 mjs has joined #html-wg 23:13:51 mjs has left #html-wg 23:14:27 mjs has joined #html-wg 23:14:56 Hixie, Mike Smith and I are gonna go to donner, anyone else who would like to tag along is welcome 23:15:06 we are in the lobby 23:15:22 you have approx 5 minutes to decide to join us before we get bored 23:24:30 arun_ has joined #html-wg 23:26:39 timbl has joined #html-wg