W3C

W3C RDF-in-XHTML TF - Telecon 2007-08-09, 15:00 UTC

9 Aug 2007

Agenda

See also: IRC log, previous 2007-08-02

Attendees

Present
Michael Hausenblas, Ralph Swick, Shane McCarron, Mark Birbeck
Regrets
Steven Pemberton, Ben Adida
Chair
collective
Scribe
Ralph

Contents


<RalphS> Thanks, Michael, for proposing an agenda

Action Item Review

ACTION: Ben to recontact implementors Elias, MarkB, triplr and post their implementations to http://esw.w3.org/topic/RDFa#Implementations [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-minutes.html#action09] [CONTINUES]

ACTION: Ben to work through xml:lang issue with Ivan [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-minutes.html#action07] [CONTINUES]

ACTION: [DONE] Michael test how <SPAN /> behaves in Internet Explorer [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]

-> span test

ACTION: [DONE] Michael to email individual emails to resolve TCs 29-33 (TC 28 to be resolved post xml:lang discussion) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]

-> [RDFa TC] Review TC29 - 33

ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04] [CONTINUES]

ACTION: Ben to sum up @href/@resource everywhere proposal [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action10] [CONTINUES]

ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10] [CONTINUES]

ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content after October [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action08] [POSTPONED]

Test Case review

<mhausenblas> RDFa TC

Michael: test 28 is still on hold, pending Ben's action

-- test 29; meta content --

Michael: Ben suggested changing the title

Michael: should the final space be dropped?

Ralph: this has to do with the default for preserving whitespace in XML parser, right?

Shane: yes, and XHTML requires that the parser always preserves whitespace

Ralph: in that case, then I believe the triple does need to retain the whitespace

resolved: test 29 approved, after correcting the result to include the whitespace and updating the title per Ben's suggestion

-- test 30, omitted @about --

-> test 30

Michael: I made the Creative Commons correction requested by Ben

resolved: test 30 approved

Ralph: Ivan commented that it could be useful to have @xml:base in our tests so the test can be run off-line
... I feel that adding @xml:base changes the tests and it's easy enough for a tester to modify the subject URI if they need to do so

Mark: perhaps we could add a $BASE variable to the results so it's clear what would need to be replaced

Michael: I say that as we're testing the Semantic Web the tests should be run on-line
... the test should work on the Net

Shane: I brought this up in the XHTML2 WG meeting again yesterday
... my belief is that @xml:base will not be added to Modularization 1
... because the other languages that depend on Modularization 1 do not define the semantics of @xml:base
... if this group does want @xml:base support then it's trivial to add
... this decision would have far-reaching ramifications, however
... we'd be saying that browsers would have to support it
... current browsers don't support it

Mark: let's postpone a decision on @xml:base

ACTION: Michael add @xml:base issue to tracker [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]

-- test 31: simple @resource --

-> test 31

Mark: I'd suggest that we not use A in this test; use DIV or SPAN instead

<ShaneM> I agree

Mark: in this particular case, a SPAN around the ISBN would be nicer
... why not put @about on the P rather than the DIV?

Michael: I think the validator wouldn't let me omit the P

Shane: it won't validate without the P but it would validate without the DIV
... where's the 'wtw' anchor?

Mark: there doesn't need to be one

Shane: it's an unresolvable fragment id. I don't care if you guys don't care

Mark: it's ok but it does look odd. We could use an Amazon URI instead.

Shane: if this simple minimalist test is OK in your eyes, that's fine
... this test is speaking about something I can't find

Ralph: if there were an anchor then there is an ambiguity about whether the subject is a book or an HTML fragment

Mark: think of it as a primary key; it just happens to look like a URI

<mhausenblas> LinkedDataTutorial

Shane: the document would fail W3C link checking
... but maybe that's OK

resolved: test 31 accepted, removing DIV and replacing A with SPAN

-- test 32; @resource overrides @href --

-> test 32

Michael: similar to test 31 except we also have @href and @resource takes precedence

<ShaneM> Again, we could get rid of the DIV and move the about to the P...

<ShaneM> Keep the A

Michael: we need A in this case to illustrate the @href

Mark: I'd prefer that @href point to an information resource

resolved: test 32 accepted, removing DIV and replacing the @href value with an information resource

-- test 33; simple chaining test with bNode --

-> test 33

Michael: test 33 was split out from test 25

Ralph: subject URI still says '25'

Shane: general editorial comment about all these tests;
... I believe we had discussed dropping the unused xmlns: declarations at the top of the test cases

Michael: yes, we agreed and didn't record an action

ACTION: Michael remove excess xmlns: declarations from test cases [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]

resolved: test 33 accepted, with corrected subject

Michael: regarding test 9
... we approved this in error; the sparql query was wrong

-> test 9

scribe: what should we do process-wise if someone identifies an error in a previously approved test?

Michael: I fixed the error in the sparql query (reversing Person1 and Person2)

resolved: test 9 re-approved, as corrected

Ralph: I think it's good to have on record when we correct a test

Shane: we can be fairly loose now but once we're in CR then we'll need to version the test suite
... version N of the test suite should only be changed by declaring a test invalid, not adding or removing tests
... as far as 'editorial' changes, we should rely on Michael's judgement

Michael: I promise to report to the TF whenever I change something

Validation

Shane: I think there's only about 3 changes needed. I just need someone to summarize and I'll update the DTD

<ShaneM> meta and link are not everywhere....

<ShaneM> add instanceof and resource

<mhausenblas>

Michael: I suggest we wait to change the DTD until we've resolved [the name of] @instanceof

<markbirbeck> Also, @href is not everywhere.

Michael: also @xml:lang

Shane: two different issues. The good news is that the new W3C validator relies on the DTD that I control
... the second issue is to get the DTD into the pull-down list, which probably won't happen until RDFa is at least CR

Ralph: I'd like to be reminding people that we've switched from @class to @instanceof asap

Shane: unfortunately, the validator won't help with that at all, as @class remains DTD-valid

Mark: people are already adopting idioms for RDFa; e.g. <EVENT> ...

<mhausenblas> W3C HTML+RDFa validator

Shane: best we can do is announce the change very publicly and loudly

Michael: the xml:lang decision is still a big open thing for at least one implementor
... we'll need Ben's action to close that

Shane: this issue comes because we're using XHTML1.1 strict which doesn't have @lang, just @xml:lang ?
... we deprecated @lang in XHTML 1.0
... the Task Force could decide to add @lang back, but I would not recommend this

Mark: we should be leveraging XML and XHTML, not adding too much
... the idea of RDFa being a layer on an existing language, with part of the definition being the interpreation of existing attributes in the base language and the other part of the definition being the attributes that we add

Michael: the test cases could just say "it's XHTML1.1 now"

Mark: or make two sets of tests

Shane: I fully intend to produce a DTD for HTML+RDFa
... I've already done it and I intend to maintain it

<mhausenblas> see also -> RDFaInHTML

Shane: in the context of HTML4 we do need to talk about @lang
... as we're inheriting that environment

Michael: I wouldn't like to see that we define @lang one way for HTML4 and a different way for XHTML1

Mark: but host languages are different, so we can't say the interpretation is the same for all host languages

Michael: could we ignore @lang?

Mark: we do talk about typed literals and string literals

Michael: how much is @lang used?

Mark: we don't want to repeat the long discussion we had over typed literals
... and we don't want to change the host language too much

Shane: [only] XHTML1.0 supports both @lang and @xml:lang

Mark: we could specify how we interpret each attribute if it is present in the host language
... but not require the host language to provide all attributes

<mhausenblas> RDFa in HTML Overview

Mark: may need to specify this abstractly, such as Infoset does
... we're talking about a set of processing rules

Mark: e.g. things like relative paths also are affected by the host language
... we should be honoring the rules of the host language
... it's a matter of interpretation

ACTION: Mark summarize in mail host language-dependent issues such as @lang and @xml:lang [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]

Shane: the RDFa Syntax spec should document the core RDFa thing
... and XHTML+RDFa can be another document that describes how RDFa extends XHTML, including any additional interpretation rules
... same for HTML+RDFa

Michael: the XHTML+RDFa document(s) could also be the place to put CURIEs

Shane: I think CURIEs need to go into the Syntax document, as the CURIE interpretation needs to apply to all of our new attributes

[adjourned]

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Mark summarize in mail host language-dependent issues such as @lang and @xml:lang [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
[NEW] ACTION: Michael add @xml:base issue to tracker [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
[NEW] ACTION: Michael remove excess xmlns: declarations from test cases [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]
 
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to recontact implementors Elias, MarkB, triplr and post their implementations to http://esw.w3.org/topic/RDFa#Implementations [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to sum up @href/@resource everywhere proposal [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to work through xml:lang issue with Ivan [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]
[PENDING] ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
 
[DONE] ACTION: Michael test how <SPAN /> behaves in Internet Explorer [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]
[DONE] ACTION: Michael to email individual emails to resolve TCs 29-33 (TC 28 to be resolved post xml:lang discussion) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]
 
[POSTPONED] ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content after October [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]
 
[End of minutes]

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$Date: 2007/08/09 18:38:33 $