IRC log of rdfa on 2007-08-09
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 14:43:02 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
- 14:43:02 [RRSAgent]
- logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-rdfa-irc
- 14:43:07 [Zakim]
- Zakim has joined #rdfa
- 14:43:12 [mhausenblas]
- zakim, this will be SW_SWD(RDFa)
- 14:43:12 [Zakim]
- ok, mhausenblas; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 17 minutes
- 14:43:43 [mhausenblas]
- Meeting: W3C RDF-in-XHTML TF - Telecon 2007-08-09, 15:00 UTC
- 14:44:16 [mhausenblas]
- Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Aug/0080.html
- 14:44:27 [mhausenblas]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 14:44:27 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas
- 14:44:34 [mhausenblas]
- RRSAgent, make logs public
- 14:44:59 [mhausenblas]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 14:44:59 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas
- 14:45:12 [mhausenblas]
- ScribeNick: mhausenblas
- 14:50:19 [mhausenblas]
- -> http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-minutes.html previous 2007-08-02
- 14:51:33 [mhausenblas]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 14:51:33 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas
- 14:54:09 [RalphS]
- RalphS has joined #rdfa
- 14:55:10 [RalphS]
- Thanks, Michael, for proposing an agenda
- 14:55:23 [RalphS]
- I believe I'm the designated scribe for today
- 14:56:20 [mhausenblas]
- mhausenblas has joined #rdfa
- 14:56:44 [Zakim]
- SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
- 14:56:52 [Zakim]
- +Michael_Hausenblas
- 14:57:00 [mhausenblas]
- RRSAgent, make logs public
- 14:57:12 [mhausenblas]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 14:57:12 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas
- 14:57:27 [mhausenblas]
- zakim, who's here?
- 14:57:27 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Michael_Hausenblas
- 14:57:28 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see mhausenblas, RalphS, Zakim, RRSAgent, markbirbeck
- 14:59:06 [ShaneM]
- ShaneM has joined #rdfa
- 14:59:34 [Zakim]
- +Ralph
- 15:00:04 [Zakim]
- +ShaneM
- 15:02:27 [RalphS]
- scribe: Ralph
- 15:02:30 [RalphS]
- scribenick: ralphs
- 15:02:33 [markbirbeck]
- zakim, code?
- 15:02:33 [Zakim]
- the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
- 15:03:12 [Zakim]
- +??P26
- 15:03:19 [markbirbeck]
- zakim, i am ?
- 15:03:19 [Zakim]
- +markbirbeck; got it
- 15:03:20 [RalphS]
- Chair: collective
- 15:04:09 [RalphS]
- Topic: Action Item Review
- 15:04:10 [RalphS]
- ACTION: Ben to recontact implementors Elias, MarkB, triplr and post their implementations to http://esw.w3.org/topic/RDFa#Implementations [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
- 15:04:13 [RalphS]
- -- continues
- 15:04:22 [RalphS]
- ACTION: Ben to work through xml:lang issue with Ivan [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]
- 15:04:23 [RalphS]
- -- continues
- 15:04:35 [RalphS]
- [DONE] ACTION: Michael test how <SPAN /> behaves in Internet Explorer [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]
- 15:04:38 [mhausenblas]
- -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Aug/0012.html
- 15:04:50 [RalphS]
- [DONE] ACTION: Michael to email individual emails to resolve TCs 29-33 (TC 28 to be resolved post xml:lang discussion) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]
- 15:04:50 [RalphS]
-
- 15:04:52 [mhausenblas]
- -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Aug/0015.html
- 15:05:08 [RalphS]
- ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
- 15:05:10 [RalphS]
- -- continues
- 15:05:23 [RalphS]
- ACTION: Ben to sum up @href/@resource everywhere proposal [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]
- 15:05:24 [RalphS]
- -- continues
- 15:05:31 [RalphS]
- ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
- 15:05:32 [RalphS]
- -- continues
- 15:05:42 [RalphS]
- ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content after October [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]
- 15:05:42 [RalphS]
-
- 15:05:44 [RalphS]
- -- postponed
- 15:05:50 [RalphS]
- Topic: Test Case review
- 15:05:58 [mhausenblas]
- -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFaTC RDFa TC
- 15:06:38 [RalphS]
- Michael: test 28 is still on hold, pending Ben's action
- 15:07:19 [RalphS]
- -- test 29 --
- 15:07:29 [RalphS]
- Michael: Ben suggested changing the title
- 15:07:59 [RalphS]
- meta content
- 15:08:34 [RalphS]
- Michael: should the final space be dropped?
- 15:09:20 [RalphS]
- Ralph: this has to do with the default for preserving whitespace in XML parser, right?
- 15:09:32 [RalphS]
- Shane: yes, and XHTML requires that the parser always preserves whitespace
- 15:10:02 [RalphS]
- Ralph: in that case, then I believe the triple does need to retain the whitespace
- 15:10:48 [RalphS]
- resolved: test 29 approved, after correcting the result to include the whitespace and updating the title per Ben's suggestion
- 15:11:02 [RalphS]
- -- test 30, omitted @about --
- 15:11:13 [RalphS]
- -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/xhtml1-testcases/Test0030 test 30
- 15:11:25 [RalphS]
- Michael: I made the Creative Commons correction requested by Ben
- 15:12:16 [RalphS]
- resolved: test 30 approved
- 15:13:40 [markbirbeck]
- q+
- 15:14:10 [mhausenblas]
- ack markbirbeck
- 15:14:22 [RalphS]
- Ralph: Ivan commented that it could be useful to have xml:base in our tests so the test can be run off-line
- 15:14:56 [RalphS]
- ... I feel that adding xml:base changes the tests and it's easy enough for a tester to modify the subject URI if they need to do so
- 15:15:15 [RalphS]
- Mark: perhaps we could add a $BASE variable to the results so it's clear what would need to be replaced
- 15:15:33 [RalphS]
- Michael: I say that as we're testing the Semantic Web the tests should be run on-line
- 15:15:43 [RalphS]
- ... the test should work on the Net
- 15:16:05 [RalphS]
- Shane: I brought this up in the XHTML2 WG meeting again yesterday
- 15:16:27 [RalphS]
- ... my belief is that xml:base will not be added to Modularization 1
- 15:16:44 [RalphS]
- ... because the other languages that depend on Modularization 1 do not define the semantics of xml:bse
- 15:16:49 [RalphS]
- s/bse/base/
- 15:17:01 [RalphS]
- ... if this group does want xml:base support then it's trivial to add
- 15:17:15 [RalphS]
- ... this decision would have far-reaching ramifications, however
- 15:17:24 [RalphS]
- ... we'd be saying that browsers would have to support it
- 15:17:33 [RalphS]
- ... current browsers don't support it
- 15:18:07 [RalphS]
- Mark: let's postpone a decision on xml:base
- 15:18:46 [RalphS]
- ACTION: Michael add xml:base issue to tracker
- 15:19:04 [RalphS]
- -- test 31: simple @resource --
- 15:19:11 [RalphS]
- -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/xhtml1-testcases/Test0031 test 31
- 15:20:18 [RalphS]
- Mark: I'd suggest that we not use A in this test; use DIV or SPAN instead
- 15:20:52 [ShaneM]
- I agree
- 15:20:53 [RalphS]
- ... in this particular case, a SPAN around the ISBN would be nicer
- 15:21:14 [RalphS]
- ... why not put @about on the P rather than the DIV?
- 15:21:39 [RalphS]
- Michael: I think the validator wouldn't let me omit the P
- 15:21:55 [RalphS]
- Shane: it won't validate without the P but it would validate without the DIV
- 15:22:14 [RalphS]
- ... where's the 'wtw' anchor?
- 15:22:18 [RalphS]
- Mark: there doesn't need to be one
- 15:22:55 [RalphS]
- Shane: it's an unresolvable fragment id. I don't care if you guys don't care
- 15:23:15 [RalphS]
- Mark: it's ok but it does look odd. We could use an Amazon URI instead.
- 15:23:27 [RalphS]
- Shane: if this simple minimalist test is OK in your eyes, that's fine
- 15:23:42 [RalphS]
- ... this test is speaking about something I can't find
- 15:23:57 [mhausenblas]
- ack RalphS
- 15:25:23 [RalphS]
- Ralph: if there were an anchor then there is an ambiguity about whether the subject is a book or an HTML fragment
- 15:25:39 [RalphS]
- Mark: think of it as a primary key; it just happens to look like a URI
- 15:25:43 [mhausenblas]
- -> http://sites.wiwiss.fu-berlin.de/suhl/bizer/pub/LinkedDataTutorial/
- 15:26:25 [RalphS]
- Shane: the document would fail W3C link checking
- 15:26:32 [RalphS]
- ... but maybe that's OK
- 15:26:59 [RalphS]
- resolved: test 31 accepted, removing DIV and replacing A with SPAN
- 15:27:09 [RalphS]
- -- test 32; @resource overrides @href --
- 15:27:17 [RalphS]
- -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/xhtml1-testcases/Test0032 test 32
- 15:27:41 [RalphS]
- Michael: similar to test 31 except we also have @href and @resource takes precedence
- 15:27:59 [ShaneM]
- Again, we could get rid of the DIV and move the about to the P...
- 15:28:05 [ShaneM]
- Keep the A
- 15:28:29 [RalphS]
- Michael: we need A in this case to illustrate the @href
- 15:29:09 [RalphS]
- Mark: I'd prefer that @href point to an information resource
- 15:29:37 [RalphS]
- resolved: test 32 accepted, removing DIV and replacing the @href value with an information resource
- 15:29:52 [RalphS]
- -- test 33; simple chaining test with bNode --
- 15:30:01 [RalphS]
- -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/xhtml1-testcases/Test0033 test 33
- 15:30:08 [RalphS]
- Michael: test 33 was split out from test 25
- 15:30:49 [RalphS]
- Ralph: subject URI still says '25'
- 15:31:24 [RalphS]
- Shane: general editorial comment about all these tests;
- 15:31:39 [RalphS]
- ... I believe we had discussed dropping the unused xmlns: declarations at the top of the test cases
- 15:31:51 [RalphS]
- Michael: yes, we agreed and didn't record an action
- 15:32:06 [RalphS]
- ACTION: Michael remove excess xmlns: declarations from test cases
- 15:32:37 [RalphS]
- resolved: test 33 accepted, with corrected subject
- 15:33:05 [RalphS]
- Michael: regarding test 9
- 15:33:17 [RalphS]
- ... we approved this in error; the sparql query was wrong
- 15:33:30 [RalphS]
- -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/xhtml1-testcases/Test0009 test 9
- 15:33:57 [RalphS]
- ... what should we do process-wise if someone identifies an error in a previously approved test?
- 15:35:17 [RalphS]
- Michael: I fixed the error in the sparql query (reversing Person1 and Person2)
- 15:35:24 [RalphS]
- resolved: test 9 re-approved, as corrected
- 15:36:13 [RalphS]
- Ralph: I think it's good to have on record when we correct a test
- 15:36:45 [RalphS]
- Shane: we can be fairly loose now but once we're in CR then we'll need to version the test suite
- 15:37:09 [RalphS]
- ... version N of the test suite should only be changed by declaring a test invalid, not adding or removing tests
- 15:38:00 [RalphS]
- ... as far as 'editorial' changes, we should rely on Michael's judgement
- 15:38:11 [RalphS]
- Michael: I promise to report to the TF whenever I change something
- 15:38:58 [RalphS]
- Topic: Validation
- 15:39:22 [RalphS]
- Shane: I think there's only about 3 changes needed. I just need someone to summarize and I'll update the DTD
- 15:39:33 [ShaneM]
- meta and link are not everywhere....
- 15:39:40 [ShaneM]
- add instanceof and resource
- 15:40:26 [mhausenblas]
- -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Aug/0078.html
- 15:40:33 [RalphS]
- Michael: I suggest we wait to change the DTD until we've resolved [the name of] @instanceof
- 15:40:49 [markbirbeck]
- Also, @href is not everywhere.
- 15:40:49 [RalphS]
- ... also xml:lang
- 15:41:12 [RalphS]
- Shane: two different issues. The good news is that the new W3C validator relies on the DTD that I control
- 15:41:36 [RalphS]
- ... the second issue is to get the DTD into the pull-down list, which probably won't happen until RDFa is at least CR
- 15:43:06 [RalphS]
- Ralph: I'd like to be reminding people that we've switched from @class to @instanceof asap
- 15:43:23 [RalphS]
- Shane: unfortunately, the validator won't help with that at all, as @class remains DTD-valid
- 15:43:56 [RalphS]
- Mark: people are already adopting idioms for RDFa; e.g. <EVENT> ...
- 15:44:23 [mhausenblas]
- -> http://rdfa.info/2007/08/07/w3c-htmlrdfa-validator/
- 15:44:25 [RalphS]
- Shane: best we can do is announce the change very publicly and loudly
- 15:45:38 [RalphS]
- Michael: the xml:lang decision is still a big open thing for at least one implementor
- 15:45:55 [RalphS]
- ... we'll need Ben's action to close that
- 15:46:17 [RalphS]
- Shane: this issue comes because we're using XHTML1.1 strict which doesn't have xml:lang ?
- 15:46:43 [RalphS]
- s/xml:lang/lang, just xml:lang/
- 15:46:54 [RalphS]
- ... we deprecated @lang in XHTML 1.0
- 15:47:08 [RalphS]
- s/ lang/ @lang/
- 15:47:15 [RalphS]
- s/ xml:/ @xml:/
- 15:47:40 [RalphS]
- Shane: the Task Force could decide to add @lang back, but I would not recommend this
- 15:48:09 [RalphS]
- Mark: we should be leveraging XML and XHTML, not adding too much
- 15:48:50 [RalphS]
- ... the idea of RDFa being a layer on an existing language, with part of the definition being the interpreation of existing attributes in the base language and the other part of the definition being the attributes that we add
- 15:49:09 [RalphS]
- Michael: the test cases could just say "it's XHTML1.1 now"
- 15:49:16 [RalphS]
- Mark: or make two sets of tests
- 15:49:31 [RalphS]
- Shane: I fully intend to produce a DTD for HTML+RDFa
- 15:49:40 [RalphS]
- ... I've already done it and I intend to maintain it
- 15:49:52 [mhausenblas]
- see also -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFaInHTML
- 15:49:56 [RalphS]
- ... in the context of HTML4 we do need to talk about @lang
- 15:50:06 [RalphS]
- ... as we're inheriting that environment
- 15:50:32 [RalphS]
- Michael: I wouldn't like to see that we define @lang one way for HTML4 and a different way for XHTML1
- 15:50:49 [RalphS]
- Mark: but host languages are different, so we can't say the interpretation is the same for all host languages
- 15:51:03 [RalphS]
- Michael: could we ignore @lang?
- 15:51:13 [RalphS]
- Mark: we do talk about typed literals and string literals
- 15:52:19 [RalphS]
- Michael: how much is @lang used?
- 15:52:57 [RalphS]
- Mark: we don't want to repeat the long discussion we had over typed literals
- 15:53:41 [RalphS]
- ... and we don't want to change the host language too much
- 15:54:27 [RalphS]
- Shane: [only] XHTML1.0 supports both @lang and @xml:lang
- 15:55:15 [RalphS]
- Mark: we could specify how we interpret each attribute if it is present in the host language
- 15:55:25 [RalphS]
- ... but not require the host language to provide all attributes
- 15:55:56 [mhausenblas]
- -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/
- 15:56:01 [RalphS]
- ... may need to specify this abstractly, such as Infoset does
- 15:56:22 [RalphS]
- ... we're talking about a set of processing rules
- 15:57:42 [RalphS]
- propose -- ACTION: Mark summarize @lang and @xml:lang discussion and other host language issues in mail
- 15:57:55 [RalphS]
- Mark: e.g. things like relative paths also are affected by the host language
- 15:58:04 [RalphS]
- ... we should be honoring the rules of the host language
- 15:58:11 [RalphS]
- ... it's a matter of interpretation
- 15:59:05 [RalphS]
- ACTION: Mark summarize in mail host language-dependent issues such as @lang and @xml:lang
- 16:00:00 [RalphS]
- Shane: the RDFa Syntax spec should document the core RDFa thing
- 16:00:24 [RalphS]
- ... and XHTML+RDFa can be another document that describes how RDFa extends XHTML, including any additional interpretation rules
- 16:00:29 [RalphS]
- ... same for HTML+RDFa
- 16:00:49 [RalphS]
- Michael: the XHTML+RDFa document(s) could also be the place to put CURIEs
- 16:01:18 [RalphS]
- Shane: I think CURIEs need to go into the Syntax document, as the CURIE interpretation needs to apply to all of our new attributes
- 16:01:31 [Zakim]
- -ShaneM
- 16:01:31 [RalphS]
- [adjourned]
- 16:01:33 [Zakim]
- -markbirbeck
- 16:01:34 [Zakim]
- -Michael_Hausenblas
- 16:01:35 [Zakim]
- -Ralph
- 16:01:37 [Zakim]
- SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
- 16:01:38 [Zakim]
- Attendees were Michael_Hausenblas, Ralph, ShaneM, markbirbeck
- 16:01:45 [RalphS]
- rrsagent, please draft minutes
- 16:01:45 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-rdfa-minutes.html RalphS
- 16:02:53 [mhausenblas]
- bye
- 16:02:55 [RalphS]
- regrets: Ben
- 16:03:21 [RalphS]
- rrsagent, bye
- 16:03:21 [RRSAgent]
- I see 9 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-rdfa-actions.rdf :
- 16:03:21 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Ben to recontact implementors Elias, MarkB, triplr and post their implementations to http://esw.w3.org/topic/RDFa#Implementations [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-minutes.html#action09] [1]
- 16:03:21 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-rdfa-irc#T15-04-10
- 16:03:21 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Ben to work through xml:lang issue with Ivan [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-minutes.html#action07] [2]
- 16:03:21 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-rdfa-irc#T15-04-22
- 16:03:21 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04] [3]
- 16:03:21 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-rdfa-irc#T15-05-08
- 16:03:21 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Ben to sum up @href/@resource everywhere proposal [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action10] [4]
- 16:03:21 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-rdfa-irc#T15-05-23
- 16:03:21 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10] [5]
- 16:03:21 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-rdfa-irc#T15-05-31
- 16:03:21 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content after October [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action08] [6]
- 16:03:21 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-rdfa-irc#T15-05-42
- 16:03:21 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Michael add xml:base issue to tracker [7]
- 16:03:21 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-rdfa-irc#T15-18-46
- 16:03:21 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Michael remove excess xmlns: declarations from test cases [8]
- 16:03:21 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-rdfa-irc#T15-32-06
- 16:03:21 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Mark summarize in mail host language-dependent issues such as @lang and @xml:lang [9]
- 16:03:21 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-rdfa-irc#T15-59-05