15:00:58 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #grddl-wg
15:00:58 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/08/08-grddl-wg-irc
15:01:05 <HarryH> Zakim, this is grddl
15:01:06 <Zakim> HarryH, this was already SW_GRDDL()11:00AM
15:01:07 <rreck> zakim, P( is me
15:01:08 <Zakim> ok, HarryH; that matches SW_GRDDL()11:00AM
15:01:11 <Zakim> +john-l
15:01:13 <Zakim> sorry, rreck, I do not recognize a party named 'P('
15:01:17 <rreck> zakim, P9 is me
15:01:17 <Zakim> sorry, rreck, I do not recognize a party named 'P9'
15:01:32 <chimezie> chimezie has joined #grddl-wg
15:01:39 <chimezie> Zakim, what is the code?
15:01:39 <Zakim> the conference code is 47335 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), chimezie
15:01:47 <john-l> Zakim, ??P9 is rreck
15:01:47 <Zakim> +rreck; got it
15:01:52 <rreck> shucks
15:02:05 <Zakim> +Chimezie_Ogbuji
15:02:10 <chimezie> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:02:10 <Zakim> On the phone I see +0122341aaaa, rreck, john-l, Chimezie_Ogbuji
15:02:23 <john-l> Zakim, aaaa is jjc
15:02:23 <Zakim> +jjc; got it
15:02:30 <Zakim> +FabienG
15:02:41 <Zakim> + +1.919.668.aabb
15:02:54 <HarryH> Zakim, aabb is HarryH
15:02:54 <Zakim> +HarryH; got it
15:03:26 <HarryH> Zakim, read agenda from http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/weekly-agenda
15:03:26 <Zakim> working on it, HarryH
15:03:27 <Zakim> agenda+ Convene GRDDL WG meeting of 2007-08-08T11:00-0400
15:03:28 <Zakim> agendum 11 added
15:03:29 <Zakim> agenda+ Standard Library Transform
15:03:30 <Zakim> agendum 12 added
15:03:32 <Zakim> agenda+ Comments on connections to XML Schemas
15:03:33 <Zakim> agendum 13 added
15:03:34 <Zakim> agenda+ Community Survey, Quick Reference (GRDDL Outreach)
15:03:36 <Zakim> agendum 14 added
15:03:37 <Zakim> agenda+ Atom, XML Vocabularies (GRDDL Outreach)
15:03:38 <Zakim> agendum 15 added
15:03:41 <Zakim> agenda+ Dublin Core, Microformat Profiles (GRDDL Outreach)
15:03:46 <Zakim> agendum 16 added
15:03:52 <Zakim> agenda+ W3C GRDDL Service
15:03:56 <Zakim> agendum 17 added
15:04:00 <Zakim> agenda+ Relationship to XHTML 2 and HTML 5: head/@profile at risk
15:04:02 <Zakim> agendum 18 added
15:04:08 <Zakim> agenda+ Press Release
15:04:10 <Zakim> agendum 19 added
15:04:12 <Zakim> done reading agenda, HarryH
15:04:14 <Zakim> +Murray_Maloney
15:05:51 <HarryH> Zakim, open item 11
15:05:51 <Zakim> agendum 11. "Convene GRDDL WG meeting of 2007-08-08T11:00-0400" taken up
15:06:01 <HarryH> chair: HarryH
15:06:09 <HarryH> cribe: john-l
15:06:16 <HarryH> Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:06:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see jjc, rreck, john-l, Chimezie_Ogbuji, FabienG, HarryH, Murray_Maloney
15:06:17 <john-l> scribe: john-l
15:06:26 <HarryH> DanC - we have begun
15:06:40 <HarryH> jjc is phone only
15:06:53 <dbooth> dbooth has joined #grddl-wg
15:07:11 <dbooth> zakim, code?
15:07:11 <Zakim> the conference code is 47335 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), dbooth
15:07:17 <HarryH> PROPOSED: to approve GRDDL WG -- 1st Aug 2007 as a true record
15:07:27 <HarryH> http://www.w3.org/2007/07/18-grddl-wg-minutes.html
15:07:46 <Zakim> +DanC
15:07:57 <HarryH> RESOLVED: approved GRDDL WG -- 1st Aug 2007 as a true record http://www.w3.org/2007/07/18-grddl-wg-minutes.html
15:08:00 <Zakim> +DBooth
15:08:26 <john-l> HarryH: Meeting next week?
15:08:28 <HarryH> PROPOSED: to meet again Wed, 15th Aug 11:00-0400. scribe volunteer?
15:08:33 <john-l> chimezie: Regrets for next week.
15:08:40 <john-l> FabienG: Regrets as well.
15:09:04 <john-l> jjc: Questionable attendance late August.
15:09:12 <john-l> HarryH: Skip next week, go for the 22nd instead.
15:09:20 <HarryH> PROPOSED: to meet again Wed, 22nd Aug 11:00-0400. scribe volunteer?
15:09:35 <john-l> Murray: Regrets for all future meetings.
15:10:00 <HarryH> RESOLVED: to meet again Wed, 22nd Aug 11:00-0400
15:10:05 <HarryH> Zakim, pick a scribe
15:10:05 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose rreck
15:10:12 <rreck> sure
15:10:14 <HarryH> RReck is scribe for 22nd.
15:10:20 <HarryH> Zakim, next item
15:10:20 <Zakim> agendum 7. "W3C GRDDL Service" taken up
15:10:26 <HarryH> Zakim, open item 12
15:10:26 <Zakim> agendum 12. "Standard Library Transform" taken up
15:12:03 <john-l> jjc: Need to test that the renamed library tests still pass.
15:12:12 <john-l> jjc: Expect that that should work, as they haven't changed.
15:12:41 <john-l> jjc: Chunk of text was in the base document and now is in limbo.
15:12:54 <DanC> sounds like 1 action is done, one continues
15:13:22 <john-l> DanC: Status text was a bit more negative than might be desired.
15:13:35 <john-l> jjc: I'll put negative bit at the end of the status comment.
15:13:53 <HarryH> Zakim, open item 13
15:13:53 <Zakim> agendum 13. "Comments on connections to XML Schemas" taken up
15:14:30 <john-l> HarryH: Some comments on this, but no response from the XQuery WG yet.
15:15:09 <john-l> Murray: The spec says that the author is making the claim of faithful rendition, not GRDDL itself.
15:15:18 <dbooth> +1
15:15:37 <HarryH> "The GRDDL specification states that any transformation identified by an
15:15:37 <HarryH> author of a GRDDL source document will provide a Faithful Rendition
15:15:37 <HarryH> <http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl/#sec_rend> of the information expressed in
15:15:37 <HarryH> the source document. "
15:15:42 <john-l> Murray: No good replacement exists.
15:16:46 <DanC> sounds good... "GRDDL permits authors to express that transformations will produce a faithful rendition..."
15:16:51 <john-l> jjc: GRDDL allows authors to claim a faithful rendition.
15:17:24 <john-l> chimezie: The lead in sentence can be modified to be more careful about mapping to the spec.
15:17:26 <dbooth> "The GRDDL specification states that by specifying a GRDDL transformation, the document author states that the GRDDL source document will provide a Faithful Rendition of the information expressed in the source document."
15:17:37 <john-l> Murray: The GRDDL specification allows authors to make promises.
15:17:48 <chimezie> s/specifying/identifying
15:18:16 <DanC> too many "source documents"
15:18:40 <john-l> Murray: one of those source documents needs to be "GRDDL result".
15:18:47 <rreck> probably the first one
15:18:52 <john-l> ... and it may be "some portion" of the information.
15:19:38 <john-l> jjc: Concept of faithful rendition is a key one.
15:20:02 <john-l> ... but it's not obvious, so the more casual reader needs those concepts reinforced.
15:20:21 <dbooth> The GRDDL specification states that by specifying a GRDDL transformation, the document author states that the GRDDL results will provide a Faithful Rendition of the source document."
15:21:13 <john-l> dbooth: This doesn't talk about "a portion of" since that is how Faithful Rendition is defined.
15:21:34 <DanC> "results will provide a faithful rendition" seems wrong. rather: "results _are_ a faithful rendition"
15:22:08 <DanC> "part of" is harder to leave out than to keep in
15:22:10 <john-l> Murray: leaving out a discussion of "a part of" is wrong.
15:23:17 <john-l> dbooth: We could quote the faithful rendition paragraph at the problematic location.
15:23:32 <john-l> Murray: I don't think any phrasing would be adequate or appropriate.
15:24:21 <chimezie> I would prefer to be certain what was incorrect about the original text and allow paraphrasing to elaborate what is a key concept but not properly communicated (or at least not well understood)
15:24:26 <john-l> jjc: One spec-writing view asserts that one should never paraphrase, at the risk of contradiction, but I think paraphrasing without error is valuable.
15:25:12 <HarryH> "By specifying a GRDDL transformation, the author of a document states that the transformation will provide a faithful rendition in RDF of information (or some portion of the information) expressed through the XML dialect used in the source document.
15:25:12 <HarryH> Likewise, by specifying a GRDDL namespace transformation or profile transformation, the creator of that namespace or profile states that the transformation will provide a faithful RDF rendition of a class of source documents which relate to that namespace or profile. A namespace document or a profile document also provide a means for their authors to explain in prose the purpose of the transformation or any policy statements.
15:25:12 <HarryH> "
15:25:26 <john-l> HarryH: I think it's ok to change the lead-in sentence, but the remainder of the paragraph is carefully crafted to appease the XQuery WG.
15:26:45 <HarryH> ACTION: Chime to take an action to the sentence that Murray objects to in the GRDDL Test Case document.
15:26:48 <john-l> chimezie: I'd like to take an action to make a correction; I think I know what's wrong and how it can be fixed.
15:27:51 <danja> danja has joined #grddl-wg
15:28:05 <john-l> Murray: Someone has rightly pointed out that XML Schemas can be found at locations other than namespace schema locations.
15:29:07 <john-l> jjc: The end-user can use independent mechanisms to associate schemas with documents.
15:30:08 <john-l> DanC: A namespace document is, by definition, a representation of a namespace.
15:30:41 <john-l> Murray: We don't provide for DTDs and schemas that don't exist at the namespace location.
15:31:28 <john-l> Murray: It seems like a big piece is missing from the spec.
15:31:55 <john-l> ... What if users retrieve DTDs and schemas via other references?
15:32:12 <john-l> jjc: Supporting those references was explicitly excluded from the scope of GRDDL.
15:33:07 <john-l> ... This paragraph says that users might want to add on to GRDDL by getting results from other sources.
15:33:52 <john-l> Murray: The claim of being a faithful rendition doesn't apply.
15:35:02 <john-l> Murray: It's not that it is or is not a faithful rendition, but that the user is no longer claiming that it is a faithful rendition.
15:35:48 <DanC> "the author doesn't claim it's a fathful rendition" is quite similar to "it may or may not be a faithful rendition". I can see the difference, but it's not critical to me.
15:37:06 <dbooth> There are two things: 1. the claim that something is a faithful rendition; and 2. whether the resulting RDF actually *is* a faithful rendition.
15:37:12 <john-l> Murray: The important part of the faithful rendition section is that a claim is being made.
15:37:49 <chimezie> dbooth: I assumed 2. is difficult to quantify if the criteria isn't simply whether or not the author made that claim
15:39:58 <john-l> dbooth: The author could have made the claim via some other mechanism.
15:41:31 <john-l> HarryH: The point is that if you do stuff out of the spec, you don't get the aknowledgement of the spec.  Can't we just say that?
15:41:46 <HarryH> the results of applying such a
15:41:46 <HarryH>  transformation may not be claimed by the author as a faithful rendition.
15:42:08 <HarryH>  transformation may not be claimed by the author as a faithful rendition or may not be a faithful rendition. 
15:42:56 <john-l> chimezie: I think I have enough to make the appropriate change.
15:43:04 <rreck> LOL
15:44:56 <john-l> HarryH: Just tell the XQuery WG that their changes have been incorporated, since our edits are a superset of their request.
15:45:15 <HarryH> ACTION: Chime to change "so it may
15:45:15 <HarryH> be unable to produce the faithful rendition" in response to Murray's comments.
15:45:16 <john-l> dbooth: We believe that our changes meet their needs.
15:46:03 <HarryH> Zakim, open item 14
15:46:03 <Zakim> agendum 14. "Community Survey, Quick Reference (GRDDL Outreach)" taken up
15:46:29 <HarryH> Zakim, open item 15 
15:46:29 <Zakim> agendum 15. "Atom, XML Vocabularies (GRDDL Outreach)" taken up
15:46:32 <HarryH> Danja?
15:46:50 <danja> in irc only
15:46:56 <HarryH> Any progress on Atom?
15:47:24 <HarryH> Danja??
15:47:35 <danja> not as yet, but I've got some day-job work planned to exercise the xslts
15:47:53 <danja> please mark action as continuing for me
15:47:55 <HarryH> The issue is not to exercise the xslts.
15:47:58 <HarryH> Here's the action:
15:48:16 <DanC> huh, arry? not to exercise? "ACTION: danja and john-l to test and see if any XSLT is mature enough to add to ATOM ..." looks like it to me
15:48:18 <HarryH> ACTION [CONTINUES]: danja and john-l to test and see if any XSLT is mature enough to add to ATOM namespace doc and has proper licensing (W3C Software license), as well as canvass all candidate XSLT authors for their opinion on ATOM/RSS 1.0 namespace.
15:48:28 <HarryH> We also have the social aspect to deal with.
15:48:40 <HarryH> The social aspect is likely to take longer :)
15:48:46 <HarryH> Any luck with the social aspect?
15:49:14 <HarryH> Good luck!
15:49:35 <danja> will press on with it...
15:49:40 <HarryH> Zakim, open item 14
15:49:40 <Zakim> agendum 14. "Community Survey, Quick Reference (GRDDL Outreach)" taken up
15:49:43 <HarryH> Zakim, open item 16
15:49:43 <Zakim> agendum 16. "Dublin Core, Microformat Profiles (GRDDL Outreach)" taken up
15:49:51 <HarryH> Danny, any luck with:
15:49:55 <HarryH> ACTION: Danja to e-mail DC back mentioning that DanC has already made transformation to a stable version of their spec, and mention that it would be great to mention RDF and Dublin Core in press release for GRDDL.
15:50:08 <danja> aargh, totally forgot that one
15:50:10 <DanC> -- continues
15:50:13 <danja> sorry
15:50:26 <HarryH> No big deal, just give it a shot soon.
15:50:36 <dbooth> s/aargh, totally forgot that one//
15:50:37 <HarryH> Just want to get progress on this before GRDDL WG closes.
15:50:38 <danja> 'k
15:50:49 <HarryH> Zakim, open item 17
15:50:49 <Zakim> agendum 17. "W3C GRDDL Service" taken up
15:50:52 <danja> right
15:51:31 <john-l> DanC: I sent mail about the service, and now I think we're in no-man's-land.
15:51:54 <john-l> HarryH: Can we send Dom flowers or something?
15:52:56 <john-l> HarryH: We just want to ask as nicely as we can...
15:53:05 <john-l> DanC: You and I asked, but there's no guarantee.
15:53:47 <HarryH> Zakim, open item 18
15:53:47 <Zakim> agendum 18. "Relationship to XHTML 2 and HTML 5: head/@profile at risk" taken up
15:54:19 <HarryH> ACTION [CONTINUES]: Chime to comment to XHTML2 comment list about preserving head/@profile re GRDDL and backwards-compatibility.
15:54:39 <HarryH> Zakim, open item 19
15:54:39 <Zakim> agendum 19. "Press Release" taken up
15:56:52 <john-l> rreck: I could write a press release about motion in various communities towards GRDDL support.
15:57:17 <HarryH> Meeting Adjourned.
15:57:48 <john-l> RRSAgent, please publish the minutes.
15:57:48 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'please publish the minutes.', john-l.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:58:23 <john-l> RRSAgent, please publish the minutes
15:58:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/08-grddl-wg-minutes.html john-l
15:58:36 <john-l> RRSAgent, please make the minutes world-readable
15:58:36 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'please make the minutes world-readable', john-l.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:59:00 <john-l> RRSAgent, please make the logs world-readable
15:59:00 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'please make the logs world-readable', john-l.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:59:05 <Zakim> -rreck
15:59:19 <john-l> RRSAgent, please make these logs world-readable
16:01:09 <john-l> Zakim, list attendees
16:01:09 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +0122341aaaa, john-l, rreck, Chimezie_Ogbuji, jjc, FabienG, +1.919.668.aabb, HarryH, Murray_Maloney, DanC, DBooth
16:01:24 <john-l> RRSAgent, please publish the minutes
16:01:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/08-grddl-wg-minutes.html john-l
16:02:15 <dbooth> Meeting: GRDDL Teleconference
16:03:07 <john-l> Present: rreck, Chimezie_Ogbuji, jjc, FabienG, HarryH, Murray_Maloney, DanC, DBooth, john-l
16:03:13 <john-l> RRSAgent, please publish the minutes
16:03:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/08-grddl-wg-minutes.html john-l
16:04:48 <Zakim> -john-l
16:05:09 <Zakim> -Chimezie_Ogbuji
16:05:26 <rreck> rreck has joined #grddl-wg
16:15:15 <Zakim> -jjc
16:15:20 <Zakim> -HarryH
16:15:40 <Zakim> -DanC
16:17:28 <Zakim> -Murray_Maloney
16:17:29 <Zakim> -DBooth
16:17:39 <Zakim> -FabienG
16:17:40 <Zakim> SW_GRDDL()11:00AM has ended
16:17:42 <Zakim> Attendees were +0122341aaaa, john-l, rreck, Chimezie_Ogbuji, jjc, FabienG, +1.919.668.aabb, HarryH, Murray_Maloney, DanC, DBooth
16:22:33 <dbooth> s/press release for GRDDL./press release for GRDDL. [Continued]/
16:22:43 <dbooth> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:22:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/08-grddl-wg-minutes.html dbooth
16:23:54 <dbooth> zakim, bye
16:23:54 <Zakim> Zakim has left #grddl-wg
16:37:55 <FabienG> FabienG has left #grddl-wg
18:30:04 <danja> danja has joined #grddl-wg