IRC log of forms on 2007-06-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:51:35 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #forms
14:51:35 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/06/27-forms-irc
14:51:42 [John_Boyer]
rrsagent, make log public
14:52:20 [Steven]
Regrets: Mark
14:52:44 [John_Boyer]
a few others as well...
14:52:52 [John_Boyer]
Did you mean MarkS or MarkB
14:52:53 [John_Boyer]
?
14:53:11 [John_Boyer]
Oh, forgot to say... Steven
14:53:16 [John_Boyer]
ruff
14:53:20 [Steven]
lol
14:53:37 [Steven]
MarkB, I forgot MarkS was back :-)
14:53:48 [Schnitz]
Mark Seaborne is back?
14:53:56 [markseaborne]
markseaborne has joined #forms
14:53:57 [Steven]
s/Regrets: Mark/Regrets: MarkB/
14:54:07 [Schnitz]
speaking of him... :-)
14:54:10 [Schnitz]
Mark, hi!
14:54:15 [Steven]
Regrets+Joern
14:54:15 [markseaborne]
Hello there :-)
14:54:23 [Schnitz]
welcome back! :-)
14:54:25 [Steven]
Regrets:Uli
14:54:29 [markseaborne]
ta very much
14:54:37 [Steven]
s/:/+/
14:54:39 [Schnitz]
we missed you!
14:54:50 [John_Boyer]
Yes, esp. with Leigh being out today :-)
14:54:53 [markseaborne]
well, you should take aim more carefully then!
14:54:59 [John_Boyer]
wink, wink, nudge, nudge
14:54:59 [markseaborne]
hmmmm
14:55:10 [Schnitz]
markseaborne, are u replacing david landwehr?
14:55:11 [markseaborne]
I don't know!
14:55:15 [markseaborne]
yes
14:55:25 [markseaborne]
though only on the WG :-)
14:55:31 [Schnitz]
sure :-)
14:55:44 [markseaborne]
he wanted to spend more time with his family ;-)
14:55:49 [Steven]
lol
14:56:00 [John_Boyer]
Regrets+Nick
14:56:07 [John_Boyer]
Regrets+Leigh
14:56:10 [Charlie]
Charlie has joined #forms
14:57:03 [Schnitz]
ok...
14:57:11 [Zakim]
HTML_Forms()11:00AM has now started
14:57:12 [Schnitz]
switching laptops
14:57:17 [Schnitz]
mom
14:57:18 [Zakim]
+John_Boyer
14:57:40 [markseaborne]
I thought sebastian didn't like laptops?
14:57:44 [Roger]
Roger has joined #forms
14:57:52 [Charlie]
i bought him one :}
14:57:52 [John_Boyer]
He seems to like IBM thinkpads...
14:58:06 [Charlie]
(well, he paid for it...)
14:58:21 [Schnitz]
Schnitz has joined #forms
14:58:27 [Schnitz]
zakim, code?
14:58:27 [Zakim]
the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Schnitz
14:58:38 [markseaborne]
fair enough
14:58:47 [ebruchez]
ebruchez has joined #forms
14:58:56 [Schnitz]
Charlie, hi, the X40 is so great, thanks so much :-)
14:58:57 [Steven]
You see that there is a UK Zakim now MarkS
14:59:09 [Zakim]
+??P30
14:59:13 [Zakim]
-John_Boyer
14:59:14 [Zakim]
+John_Boyer
14:59:27 [Schnitz]
zakim, ??p30 is me
14:59:27 [Zakim]
+Schnitz; got it
14:59:29 [markseaborne]
goodness
14:59:36 [wellsk]
wellsk has joined #forms
14:59:37 [Schnitz]
zakim, who is here?
14:59:37 [Zakim]
On the phone I see John_Boyer, Schnitz
14:59:38 [Zakim]
On IRC I see wellsk, ebruchez, Schnitz, Roger, Charlie, markseaborne, RRSAgent, Zakim, John_Boyer, Steven
14:59:42 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
14:59:57 [Charlie]
zakim, [IBM] is Charlie
14:59:57 [Zakim]
+Charlie; got it
15:00:08 [Zakim]
+Raman
15:00:16 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
15:00:26 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
15:00:26 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:00:28 [Zakim]
+Steven
15:01:28 [lars]
lars has joined #forms
15:01:28 [Zakim]
+??P48
15:01:30 [John_Boyer]
zakim, who is here?
15:01:30 [Zakim]
On the phone I see John_Boyer, Schnitz, Charlie, Raman, [IBM], Steven, ??P48
15:01:33 [Zakim]
On IRC I see lars, wellsk, ebruchez, Schnitz, Roger, Charlie, markseaborne, RRSAgent, Zakim, John_Boyer, Steven
15:01:34 [Roger]
zakim, ??p48 is roger
15:01:35 [Zakim]
+roger; got it
15:02:29 [Zakim]
+??P53
15:02:32 [Zakim]
+??P51
15:02:35 [John_Boyer]
Chair: John
15:03:07 [Schnitz]
raman, ping
15:03:27 [Zakim]
-??P53
15:03:34 [ebruchez]
well, I was ??P53
15:03:43 [ebruchez]
so I guess Lars was 51
15:03:47 [lars]
zakim, I am ??P51
15:03:57 [John_Boyer]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2007Jun/0083.html
15:04:00 [Zakim]
+lars; got it
15:04:06 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
15:04:06 [John_Boyer]
John_Boyer has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2007Jun/0083.html
15:04:11 [ebruchez]
zakim, ebruchez is [IP
15:04:12 [Steven]
Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2007Jun/0083.html
15:04:14 [Zakim]
sorry, ebruchez, I do not recognize a party named 'ebruchez'
15:04:25 [ebruchez]
zkim, [IP is ebruchez
15:04:26 [Zakim]
+??P57
15:05:07 [raman]
raman has joined #forms
15:05:08 [John_Boyer]
Scribe: raman
15:05:08 [markseaborne]
me
15:05:15 [raman]
Scribe: Raman
15:05:29 [markseaborne]
it is MarkS
15:05:32 [Steven]
zakim, [IP is ebruchez
15:05:32 [Zakim]
+ebruchez; got it
15:05:40 [markseaborne]
but you can't hear me for some reason
15:05:54 [Steven]
zakim, who is here?
15:05:54 [Zakim]
On the phone I see John_Boyer, Schnitz, Charlie, Raman, [IBM], Steven, roger, lars, ebruchez, ??P57
15:05:54 [markseaborne]
MEEEEE!!!!!!
15:05:56 [Zakim]
On IRC I see raman, lars, wellsk, ebruchez, Schnitz, Roger, Charlie, markseaborne, RRSAgent, Zakim, John_Boyer, Steven
15:06:09 [wellsk]
zakim, IBM is wellsk
15:06:09 [Zakim]
+wellsk; got it
15:06:23 [Steven]
zakim, ??P57 is markseaborne
15:06:23 [Zakim]
+markseaborne; got it
15:06:32 [markseaborne]
I am having problems with speech
15:06:35 [markseaborne]
don't know why
15:06:44 [markseaborne]
I'm shouting as loud as I can
15:06:46 [Steven]
zakim, ack markseaborne
15:06:46 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
15:06:50 [markseaborne]
IS THAT BETTER!!!!!!
15:06:53 [John_Boyer]
no
15:06:55 [Steven]
nope
15:07:15 [markseaborne]
yes
15:07:16 [lars]
zakim, unmute markseaborne, PLEASE!
15:07:16 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'unmute markseaborne, PLEASE!', lars
15:07:23 [markseaborne]
It is a hardware problem at this end
15:07:27 [lars]
mpf
15:07:32 [markseaborne]
my mic isn't working
15:07:42 [Steven]
scribe: raman
15:07:49 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:07:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/06/27-forms-minutes.html Steven
15:08:04 [ebruchez]
congratulations
15:08:06 [markseaborne]
Thanks :-)
15:08:13 [Schnitz]
yeah, great to have you back
15:08:14 [markseaborne]
nice to be back
15:08:15 [Charlie]
welcome!
15:08:18 [markseaborne]
:-)
15:08:25 [John_Boyer]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2007Jun/0084.html
15:08:32 [Steven]
rrsagent, make log public
15:08:42 [John_Boyer]
http://www.w3.org/2007/06/forms-diffs-1.7-1.14.txt
15:09:07 [Steven]
Meeting: Weekly Forms WG Teleconference
15:10:01 [Steven]
Topic: Charter
15:10:02 [Steven]
http://www.w3.org/2007/06/forms-diffs-1.7-1.14.txt
15:10:16 [Steven]
http://www.w3.org/2007/03/forms-charter.html
15:10:59 [Schnitz]
zakim, mute me
15:10:59 [Zakim]
Schnitz should now be muted
15:12:13 [Schnitz]
zakim, unmute me
15:12:13 [Zakim]
Schnitz should no longer be muted
15:12:21 [Schnitz]
steven, +1
15:15:13 [Schnitz]
scribe: Sebastian
15:15:23 [Steven]
scribenick: schnitz
15:15:43 [Schnitz]
ACTION: John to respond to Chris Lilley about the relationship between XHTML Transitional and the Forms & HTML WGs
15:15:53 [Zakim]
-roger
15:16:00 [Schnitz]
Topic: Coming Calls
15:16:22 [Schnitz]
John: Regrets for next week?
15:16:24 [Schnitz]
Charlie: YES
15:16:35 [Schnitz]
John: +Leigh
15:16:40 [Schnitz]
+Raman
15:16:52 [Schnitz]
Raman: regrets next week
15:16:52 [Zakim]
+ +03491211aaaa
15:16:57 [Schnitz]
John: we habe enough people
15:17:08 [Schnitz]
RESOLUTION: Next call will take place as planned
15:17:09 [Roger]
zakim, 211aaa is roger
15:17:09 [Zakim]
sorry, Roger, I do not recognize a party named '211aaa'
15:17:20 [Schnitz]
Topic: Questionaire for the summer period
15:17:27 [Steven]
zakim, aaaa is Roger
15:17:27 [Zakim]
+Roger; got it
15:17:30 [Schnitz]
John: Steven, status?
15:17:39 [Schnitz]
Steven: On my to-do list
15:17:54 [Schnitz]
Topic: XForms evening at XML conference
15:18:04 [Schnitz]
John: We have thumbs up from Dave Steinhard
15:18:13 [Schnitz]
John: conflict on Dec 4
15:18:21 [Schnitz]
John: affects Steven
15:18:44 [Schnitz]
Steven, cannot do much, unfortunately
15:18:54 [Schnitz]
s/Steven,/Steven:
15:19:15 [Schnitz]
RESOLUTION: We will continue with Dec 4, w/o Steven
15:19:16 [John_Boyer]
28http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2007Jun/0081.html
15:19:47 [Schnitz]
John: We need a copy for a call for papers
15:19:57 [Schnitz]
John: we should have an invited speaker
15:20:07 [Schnitz]
John: I propose Michael Kay
15:20:16 [Schnitz]
Raman: possible
15:20:39 [Schnitz]
Raman: That focus is XML though, I rather see Jacob Nielson, focus on Usabilityt
15:20:55 [Schnitz]
s/Usabilityt/Usability
15:21:10 [Schnitz]
John: Would Jacob attract the audience?
15:21:14 [Schnitz]
Raman: YES
15:21:46 [Schnitz]
ACTION: Steven to provide contact details for Jacob
15:22:23 [Schnitz]
Charlie: That would warm people up
15:22:38 [Steven]
rrsagent, pointer?
15:22:38 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2007/06/27-forms-irc#T15-22-38
15:22:42 [Schnitz]
John: other ideas?
15:22:49 [Schnitz]
Steven: Kurt Cagle
15:22:54 [Schnitz]
Sebastian: +1
15:23:02 [Schnitz]
Raman: +1
15:23:13 [Schnitz]
ACTION: John to invite Kurt Cagle
15:23:23 [Schnitz]
Topic: Joint Forms Task Force
15:23:33 [Schnitz]
John: Pushed it up to the HCG
15:23:43 [Schnitz]
John: Agreed about equal membership
15:23:52 [Schnitz]
John: Then push it back down to chairs
15:23:59 [John_Boyer]
28http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2007Jun/0070.html
15:24:03 [Schnitz]
John: Letter is out, no response yet
15:24:13 [Schnitz]
John: Problem is, Dave is not here
15:25:08 [Schnitz]
Raman: Don't rush, the TF could be quickly smashed
15:25:23 [Schnitz]
Raman: IMHO, won't go anywhere
15:25:36 [Schnitz]
Raman: Its a mess, I have no idea what to do
15:25:47 [Schnitz]
John: 12 people on the HTML WG side have interest
15:26:39 [Schnitz]
Raman: They won't allow wiggle room
15:29:54 [Schnitz]
Sebastian, Raman: Not rushing it is a good idea
15:30:26 [Schnitz]
John: Those interested from other side could in the meanwhile could be looking into ease of authoring
15:30:35 [Schnitz]
Raman: Just do it.
15:30:46 [Schnitz]
s/other side/our side
15:31:01 [Schnitz]
Topic: Action Item List
15:31:13 [Schnitz]
John: Issue Tracking is important
15:31:31 [Schnitz]
John: The Action Item List grows, but we need more folks take on work on a weekly basis
15:31:46 [Schnitz]
Raman: I have not been doing much
15:32:14 [Schnitz]
John: The Wiki needs more work
15:32:42 [Schnitz]
ACTION: WG members look into their Action Items, and start working on them on the Wiki
15:33:10 [Schnitz]
Raman: ciao
15:33:12 [Zakim]
-Raman
15:33:22 [Schnitz]
Topic: LC Issues
15:33:39 [John_Boyer]
28http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xforms-issues/Controls?id=72;user=guest;statetype=4;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
15:34:26 [Steven]
Issue Controls/72
15:34:35 [Schnitz]
John: Issue from Steven
15:34:50 [Schnitz]
John: Do we have an ETA on this?
15:35:05 [Schnitz]
Steven: Did we accept it?
15:35:14 [Schnitz]
John: Classified as still needing work
15:35:42 [Schnitz]
Steven: trying to work this out...
15:35:54 [Schnitz]
John: It needs approval
15:36:28 [Schnitz]
Steven: Somebody things this is a solution, but the group need to discuss this, but it doesn't say what the resolution is
15:36:40 [Schnitz]
Steven: the first thing is that the wording should be different
15:37:04 [Schnitz]
Steven: Then, very few controls says what the default styling should be
15:37:15 [Schnitz]
Sebastian: UA CSS?
15:37:21 [Schnitz]
Steven: Possibly
15:37:36 [Schnitz]
Sebastian: Display property?
15:38:05 [Schnitz]
Sebastian: inline for trigger
15:38:36 [Schnitz]
Steven: ah default UA CSS would be fine
15:38:49 [Schnitz]
John: things like relevant go beyond, though
15:39:16 [Schnitz]
Steven: relevant is display: none for irrelevant
15:39:30 [Schnitz]
John: Is this a informative appendix?
15:39:36 [Schnitz]
Steven: should be stronger
15:40:02 [Schnitz]
Steven: Maybe not MUST, but in case of validity, it SHOULD always be visible as being invalid, e.g.
15:40:42 [Schnitz]
Steven: I do not require a particular presentation but we should require that something needs to be done
15:40:59 [Schnitz]
John: this seems like for ALL form controls, not particular ones
15:41:31 [Schnitz]
Steven: Select1 inline as a drop-down, block as radio?
15:41:40 [Schnitz]
Lars: Radios could be inline
15:41:48 [Schnitz]
Steven: Maybe, maybe all inline
15:42:06 [Schnitz]
Sebastian: Radio button themselves could be inline-block
15:43:05 [Schnitz]
Steven: That is CSS3
15:43:16 [Schnitz]
Sebastian: Right
15:44:01 [Schnitz]
Erik: It is diffcult, in can be both vertial and horizontal
15:44:07 [Roger]
I agree with Erik
15:44:16 [Schnitz]
John: don't know whether we should go down that route
15:44:30 [Schnitz]
Steven: There is a certain level that has to be normative
15:44:41 [Schnitz]
Steven: you should expect certain things to happen
15:44:54 [Schnitz]
Steven: So you know what to put in a User CSS
15:45:09 [Schnitz]
Steven: Establishing Basic Expectations
15:45:18 [Schnitz]
Lars: Default UA CSS?
15:45:27 [Schnitz]
Steven: Just say all controls are default inline
15:45:42 [Schnitz]
Steven: and all MIPS are all perceivable by the user
15:45:44 [markseaborne]
Isn't presentation more down to the host language?
15:45:48 [Schnitz]
John: what about read-onlu?
15:45:55 [Charlie]
i'd suggest whatever language we specify clarify that this is just for visual UIs
15:45:56 [markseaborne]
You really need some context before you can make assumptions
15:46:02 [Schnitz]
s/read-onlu/read-only
15:46:16 [Schnitz]
Steven: No, read-only also could have a hint, like being grey
15:46:53 [Schnitz]
Steven: disabled, the label is greyed out, read-only, the value is greyed out
15:47:01 [Schnitz]
Erik: its the way it behaves
15:47:09 [Schnitz]
s/Erik/Lars
15:47:26 [Schnitz]
Lars: I also find it more convenient to see what to expect
15:48:00 [Schnitz]
John: in other langauges read-only e.g. is not shown
15:48:12 [Schnitz]
Steven: you can control that, we are talking about the default
15:48:31 [Schnitz]
Erik: we would just say its an indication, not e.g. being grey
15:48:45 [Schnitz]
John: someone needs to write the text
15:48:52 [Schnitz]
Sebastian: Steven is the one
15:48:58 [Schnitz]
ACTION: Steven to write something up
15:50:10 [Schnitz]
Sebastian: It would be good to have a mapping into CSS 3 UI syntax
15:50:31 [Steven]
PROPOSED: all controls should be default inline, and that all MIP properties should be visible on attached controls
15:50:42 [Schnitz]
s/something up/text for Issue Controls 72
15:50:49 [Charlie]
for visual interfaces
15:50:55 [Steven]
s/visible/perceivable
15:51:08 [Charlie]
don't think inline has an equivalent in voicexml
15:52:10 [Roger_]
Roger_ has joined #forms
15:52:16 [Steven]
PROPOSED: all controls should be default inline, and all MIP properties should be preceivable on attached controls
15:52:41 [Charlie]
for visual interfaces...
15:54:31 [Schnitz]
Charlie: OK, I'm happy
15:54:45 [Steven]
POPOSAL: all controls should be default inline, and all MIP properties should be perceivable on attached controls without interaction
15:54:57 [Schnitz]
Lars: From an XForms perspective, controls should be more abstract
15:55:00 [Steven]
r/POP/PROP/
15:55:07 [Steven]
s/POP/PRO/
15:55:11 [Schnitz]
Charlie: I think its OK since inline is not only for visual medias
15:55:22 [Steven]
RESOLUTION: all controls should be default inline, and all MIP properties should be perceivable on attached controls without interaction
15:55:24 [Schnitz]
John: works for me, any objection
15:55:29 [Schnitz]
No objections
15:55:39 [Schnitz]
Steven, thanks
15:55:45 [John_Boyer]
28http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xforms-issues/Controls?id=73;user=guest;statetype=4;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
15:55:47 [Schnitz]
Topic: Issue 73
15:55:57 [Schnitz]
Controls/73
15:56:09 [Schnitz]
John: We already agreed on a resolution see the notes
15:56:22 [Schnitz]
zakim, who is making noise?
15:56:34 [Zakim]
Schnitz, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
15:56:40 [Schnitz]
John: Steven, you raised a media type issue
15:57:06 [Schnitz]
John: use @value instead of @ref, and we modified to say "in addition to"
15:57:18 [Schnitz]
Erik: why do you actually need the ref attribute?
15:57:25 [Schnitz]
John: we discussed that
15:57:42 [Schnitz]
John: we tried to mirror with the xforms output the things you can with the xforms upload
15:58:23 [Schnitz]
Erik: I you have an output the media type will be chosen by the author, as to opposed to the upload, probably
15:59:02 [Schnitz]
John: upload the media type attibute constrains, output picks that up to feed to rendering engine
15:59:50 [Schnitz]
John: ref attribute was added to easy sync between output and upload
15:59:59 [Schnitz]
Erik: I am skeptical
16:00:19 [Schnitz]
Steven: We tried to be consistent with upload
16:00:38 [Schnitz]
Steven: when we do not want to be consistent, because they are different, fine, then never mind
16:01:09 [Schnitz]
Erik: The media type value is a string, not a single node, don't confuse that
16:01:20 [Schnitz]
John: we need an action item to make the change
16:01:28 [Schnitz]
John: the value attribute will be added
16:01:37 [Schnitz]
John: the question is whether we throw out ref
16:01:55 [Schnitz]
Erik: we are generally working around not having attribute value template
16:02:12 [Schnitz]
Erik: I don't really see why we would use ref attribute, only for symmetry, is not enough
16:02:24 [Schnitz]
John: Top of the hour
16:02:29 [Roger_]
thx
16:02:30 [markseaborne]
bye bye
16:02:33 [Zakim]
-Charlie
16:02:39 [Zakim]
-ebruchez
16:02:39 [Roger_]
Roger_ has left #forms
16:02:41 [Zakim]
-wellsk
16:02:43 [Zakim]
-John_Boyer
16:02:44 [wellsk]
wellsk has left #forms
16:02:47 [Zakim]
-Steven
16:02:53 [Zakim]
-Roger
16:02:55 [Zakim]
-Schnitz
16:02:59 [Zakim]
-lars
16:03:01 [Zakim]
-markseaborne
16:03:03 [Zakim]
HTML_Forms()11:00AM has ended
16:03:06 [John_Boyer]
John_Boyer has joined #forms
16:03:07 [Zakim]
Attendees were John_Boyer, Schnitz, Charlie, Raman, Steven, roger, lars, [IPcaller], ebruchez, wellsk, markseaborne, +03491211aaaa
16:03:13 [John_Boyer]
John_Boyer has left #forms
16:03:15 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:03:15 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/06/27-forms-minutes.html Steven
16:03:18 [John_Boyer]
John_Boyer has joined #forms
16:03:23 [Schnitz]
Steven, thanks
16:03:24 [John_Boyer]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:03:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/06/27-forms-minutes.html John_Boyer
16:03:39 [John_Boyer]
rrsagent, bye
16:03:39 [RRSAgent]
I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/27-forms-actions.rdf :
16:03:39 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: John to respond to Chris Lilley about the relationship between XHTML Transitional and the Forms & HTML WGs [1]
16:03:39 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/27-forms-irc#T15-15-43
16:03:39 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Steven to provide contact details for Jacob [2]
16:03:39 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/27-forms-irc#T15-21-46
16:03:39 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: John to invite Kurt Cagle [3]
16:03:39 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/27-forms-irc#T15-23-13
16:03:39 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: WG members look into their Action Items, and start working on them on the Wiki [4]
16:03:39 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/27-forms-irc#T15-32-42
16:03:39 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Steven to write something up [5]
16:03:39 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/27-forms-irc#T15-48-58
16:03:54 [markseaborne]
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