IRC log of bpwg on 2007-05-29

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:43:23 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #bpwg

13:43:23 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/05/29-bpwg-irc

13:43:30 [dom]

trackbot, off

13:43:35 [dom]

trackbot, bye

13:43:35 [trackbot]

trackbot has left #bpwg

13:43:48 [dom]

Meeting: mobileOK Basic ref implementation task force

13:44:09 [dom]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobileok-checker/2007May/0122.html

13:44:13 [dom]

Chair: Sean

13:44:47 [dom]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobileok-checker/2007May/0089.html Previous minutes 22 May 2007

13:45:01 [dom]

Regrets: Roland

13:45:15 [dom]

RRSAgent, make log public

13:51:18 [Zakim]

jo, you asked to be pinged at this time

13:56:15 [ruadhan]

ruadhan has joined #bpwg

13:57:47 [jo]

zakim, code?

13:57:47 [Zakim]

the conference code is 2283 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jo

13:58:18 [Zakim]

MWI_BPWG()10:00AM has now started

13:58:25 [Zakim]

+jo

13:58:28 [abel]

abel has joined #bpwg

13:58:56 [srowen]

srowen has joined #bpwg

13:59:07 [abel]

zakim, Miguel is with me

13:59:07 [Zakim]

sorry, abel, I do not recognize a party named 'abel'

13:59:29 [jo]

zakim, who is on the phone?

13:59:29 [Zakim]

On the phone I see jo

14:00:06 [Zakim]

-jo

14:00:07 [Zakim]

MWI_BPWG()10:00AM has ended

14:00:08 [Zakim]

Attendees were jo

14:00:10 [Zakim]

MWI_BPWG()10:00AM has now started

14:00:15 [Zakim]

+[CTIC]

14:00:23 [Zakim]

+Sean_Owen

14:00:44 [abel]

zakim, [CTIC] is me

14:00:44 [Zakim]

+abel; got it

14:00:55 [abel]

zakim,Miguel is with me

14:00:55 [Zakim]

+Miguel; got it

14:01:02 [Zakim]

+jo

14:02:48 [Zakim]

+??P3

14:03:58 [Zakim]

-abel

14:04:24 [Zakim]

+??P8

14:05:03 [srowen]

(hmm wonder if Roland or Dom is joining? if not we may have all our attendees)

14:05:20 [Zakim]

+dom

14:05:50 [dom]

Zakim, list attendees

14:05:50 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been Sean_Owen, abel, Miguel, jo, dom

14:06:04 [abel]

zakim, P8 is me

14:06:04 [Zakim]

sorry, abel, I do not recognize a party named 'P8'

14:06:22 [abel]

zakim, ??P8 is me

14:06:22 [Zakim]

+abel; got it

14:06:31 [dom]

zakim, ??P3 is ruadhan

14:06:31 [Zakim]

+ruadhan; got it

14:06:33 [jo]

scribenick: jo

14:06:36 [dom]

Zakim, list attendees

14:06:36 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been Sean_Owen, abel, Miguel, jo, dom, ruadhan

14:06:37 [jo]

Scribe: Jo

14:06:53 [jo]

Topic: CTIC Document

14:07:09 [dom]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobileok-checker/2007May/att-0087/thirdparties_study.html A study about third parties tools regarding mobileOK checker, by the CTIC guys

14:07:39 [jo]

Sean: can you talk us through it

14:07:47 [abel]

http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dhbw7zt7_0f8w6bq

14:08:02 [dom]

Regrets+ Nacho

14:08:38 [jo]

Abel: we looked at the thrid party tools in relation to moki

14:08:45 [jo]

... tidy etc.

14:09:22 [jo]

... it's desirable to make the moki document independent of the the particualr third party tools in use

14:09:41 [jo]

... we looked at Tag Soup, but there is a problem - it doesn't record error output

14:09:51 [jo]

... or tell you what repairs it has done

14:10:19 [jo]

... there are other tools, (Sean proposed them in an email)

14:10:27 [srowen]

q+

14:10:28 [jo]

... does anyone have anything to add?

14:10:34 [jo]

ack S

14:11:07 [jo]

Sean: I agree we need to have a way of reporting errors and problems - they are all different and don't expose their errors in a clean and consistent way

14:11:13 [jo]

q+ to comment on TagSoup

14:11:22 [jo]

... not so worried about Tag Soup

14:11:34 [jo]

... e.g. Jhove will be reporting all kinds of errors

14:11:41 [jo]

... so what do we do with them

14:11:50 [jo]

... I'd prefer not to modify the source code

14:12:13 [jo]

... do we need to maintain a mapping between exceptions and strings ...

14:12:21 [jo]

... it is a bit fragile

14:12:31 [jo]

... but may be the only way of doing it

14:12:56 [jo]

... similar approach to what Roland checked in with a load of error strings

14:13:11 [jo]

... so how can we map from the errors

14:13:26 [jo]

... do we need a framework?

14:13:28 [jo]

q?

14:14:03 [srowen]

jo: I have done UTF-8/HTML validation with JHOVE. a bit disappointing

14:14:30 [srowen]

jo: UTF-8 errors are reasonable; have a byte offset as a structured value

14:14:45 [srowen]

jo: XHTML doesn't and its errors are fairly inscrutable

14:14:56 [jo]

zakim, who is noisy?

14:15:08 [Zakim]

jo, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: dom (36%), jo (14%)

14:15:38 [srowen]

want location info and internationalized strings

14:15:46 [srowen]

we also want it to continue parsing for errors

14:16:14 [srowen]

Ruadhan, XHTML error messages from ready.mobi are handy -- so we can get this info out of the standard library?

14:16:26 [srowen]

ruadhan: yeah we get line and col numbers, can be misleading sometimes

14:16:47 [srowen]

example: using attributes in DTDs

14:17:14 [srowen]

jo: looks like we need friendlier tools

14:17:15 [srowen]

q+

14:17:22 [srowen]

ack jo

14:17:22 [Zakim]

jo, you wanted to comment on TagSoup

14:17:38 [srowen]

otherwise we're faced with modifying JHOVE and don't want to do that

14:18:04 [srowen]

don't worry just now, but let's not hold up on the rest of the framework

14:18:44 [srowen]

jo: on tagsoup, I think we'll have to dive into this more. Not good at preserving DTD for example

14:18:58 [srowen]

ack srowen

14:18:59 [jo]

scribenick: jo

14:19:31 [jo]

sean: agree with Jo, and if Jhove is not useful and the standard library is for XHTML then let's

14:19:40 [jo]

... just use that

14:19:59 [jo]

... not so worried about Tag Soup - it's a bonus anyway

14:20:25 [jo]

... on error reporting, I like the framework from Roland on error reporting

14:20:33 [jo]

... and we should adopt that

14:21:07 [jo]

.. and how do we map between module error reporting and our error reporting

14:21:28 [jo]

... it may be difficult to come up with a generic framework

14:22:11 [jo]

... let's not hold it up too much

14:22:39 [jo]

jo: do you mean in the intermediate doc, I assume so

14:22:52 [jo]

sean: hmmm, a lot of the work is done early on

14:23:02 [jo]

... so you have to pass it through that doc

14:24:33 [jo]

jo: I think that the moki doc can be the place to put all necessary info

14:24:57 [jo]

sean: moki can put "no errors" - if validation fialed why and where

14:25:05 [jo]

s/fialed/failed/

14:25:34 [jo]

... you say there is already a structure for this in your porposed format

14:25:37 [jo]

jo: yes

14:26:00 [matt]

matt has joined #bpwg

14:27:34 [jo]

... if you are going to grovel through libraries to find the string literals then you may as well change the code to report in a mroe sensible way

14:27:49 [jo]

sean: any more comments on error reporting and handling?

14:28:09 [jo]

... if not let us set this aside a little bit, we need to dig into the code

14:28:30 [jo]

... we do want to avoid modifying the source code if we can

14:28:46 [jo]

... we will need a way of mapping error reporting into final strings

14:29:21 [jo]

... need to use the moki document format to transmit errors between phases

14:29:26 [jo]

... moving on

14:29:50 [jo]

... more on Jhove and utf-8 jo?

14:30:02 [jo]

jo: not really, it worked and detected an error :-)

14:30:13 [jo]

Topic: DTDs

14:30:31 [jo]

sean: we do want to remove dependencies on external DTDs

14:30:37 [dom]

+100 to using a DTD catalog (W3C servers spend so much of their resources on serving DTDs...)

14:30:50 [jo]

... don't want failure because of dependency

14:30:57 [ruadhan]

q+

14:31:16 [jo]

... will take an action to download copies of DTDs

14:31:31 [jo]

ack r

14:31:53 [jo]

ruadhan: I have code to do this with the Xerces resolver

14:32:27 [jo]

sean: sounds as though you can inject this into the current code base?

14:32:31 [jo]

ruadhan: sure

14:33:04 [jo]

jo:we should decide which DTDs we need to collect

14:33:18 [jo]

sean: let's have all the XHTML and the HTML 4 DTD

14:33:22 [dom]

the OMA XHTML MP dtds?

14:33:34 [jo]

if you can find them :-)

14:34:33 [dom]

xhtml mp 1.0 is available; I don't think the 1.1 and 1.2 are available as their published URIs, but they are available somewhere else I think

14:34:40 [dom]

s/as their/at their/

14:35:53 [jo]

sean: well we will have to have our own copy of that then

14:35:59 [jo]

topic: aob

14:36:25 [jo]

sean: not done too much this week except do nit-picking on Jo's [lousy] Java

14:36:45 [jo]

... preparing for an intern to arrive

14:36:57 [jo]

... anyone else got a status update?

14:37:57 [abel]

q+

14:38:01 [jo]

jo: I'll carry on with doing the Java for moki

14:38:13 [jo]

... and finalizing that format

14:38:54 [jo]

Abel: we will start to implement stuff - we have got our account working so we can prepare for the F2F

14:39:11 [jo]

sean: we should all come to F2F with loads of working code already submitted

14:39:30 [jo]

... i am pleased with progress so far

14:39:42 [jo]

... no more comments then we can end the call now

14:39:50 [jo]

... and convene again next week

14:40:11 [jo]

... I still have an action on error code line number

14:40:29 [Zakim]

-dom

14:40:31 [jo]

Adjourned

14:40:32 [Zakim]

-jo

14:40:34 [Zakim]

-Sean_Owen

14:40:38 [dom]

[regrets for next week, I'll be traveling]

14:40:42 [Zakim]

-abel

14:41:01 [jo]

zakim, who is on the phone?

14:41:01 [Zakim]

On the phone I see ruadhan

14:41:10 [jo]

zakim, drop ruadhan

14:41:10 [Zakim]

ruadhan is being disconnected

14:41:11 [Zakim]

MWI_BPWG()10:00AM has ended

14:41:13 [Zakim]

Attendees were Sean_Owen, abel, Miguel, jo, dom, ruadhan

14:41:22 [dom]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

14:41:22 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/29-bpwg-minutes.html dom

14:41:25 [jo]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:41:25 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/29-bpwg-minutes.html jo

14:41:47 [dom]

Zakim, bye

14:41:47 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #bpwg

14:44:02 [jo]

jo has left #bpwg

14:55:01 [ruadhan]

ruadhan has left #bpwg