<Harold> zakim [NRCC] is me

<ChrisW> Philippe, will you be joining us?

<Hassan> :-)

chris, I will scribe

<ChrisW> scribenick: StellaMitchell

<ChrisW> Scribe: Stella Mitchell

Admin

chris: next telecon, tues May 1st
... agenda ammendment: we will discuss next F2F

sandro: may 1st is holiday for some

<sandro> +1 will attend next tuesday

chris: how many people who are here today can attend next week?

<josb> +1

<LeoraMorgenstern> +1 for attending next Tue.

<Harold> +1

chris: put in irc log

<Hassan> +1 will attend may 1

<Deborah_Nichols> +1

<pfps> +1 for next week

<AllenGinsberg> +1

chris: 8 yes, so 2/3 of people who are on the call will attend
... we will hold the telecon next week

<PhilippeB> +1

chris: following week, may 8, we may have to cancel due to conflict
... ...will discuss by email

F2F

chris: next f2f is in just over a month, in Innsbruck

jos: preparations are on schedule. more info is on the wiki
... I will need info from WG about number of attendees and
... number for dinner

chris: sandro will set up questionairre with deadline of may 17

sandro: some people may attend one day and not the other

<Hassan> lunches?

jos: meeting will be at the university at DERI

chris: what is the best hotel, to be close to meeting

jos: there are none in the vicinity - I will doublecheck
... people usually stay in center, and there is a good bus connection

<Hassan> any local info will be good

chris: any info to help - such as what hotels are close to the bus, etc

sandro: encourage people to make travel plans at the same time they fill out the survery
... so there should be enough info to help them

jos: getting there page is redundant with reaching innsbruck page
... I will update the page

chris: any other questions for jos?

Admin

<sandro> ACTION: Sandro to make F2F6 attendance survey [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-rif-minutes.html#action01]

<rifbot> Created ACTION-278 - Make F2F6 attendance survey [on Sandro Hawke - due 2007-05-01].

Liason

chris: (none)
... any news from liasons?
... none on call...

Technical Design

<PhilippeB> none

chris: didn't see any public comments on the core WD

sandro: last comment was april 3rd
... did anyone send out any reminders?

<PhilippeB> @&

<Deborah_Nichols> I sent to some folks at SRI but forgot to update the contacts page - will do after the meeting.

chris: deadline for comments is april 27

sandro: no one has advertised it except me

<sandro> Outreach page on wiki

csma: can we extend comment deadline?

sandro: yes, we probably can. we can say we are still accepting comments

<sandro> Sandro: "Even though the deadline is passing, we will still accept comments"

sandro: (can't change deadline on document)

deborah: I did send to SRI, but I forgot to update outreach page
... and I said we would accept comments after deadline

<PhilippeB> you can give me javarules, omg

chris: csma, you did javarules last time

<sandro> ACTION: Christopher announce rif-core to CL [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-rif-minutes.html#action02]

<rifbot> Created ACTION-279 - Announce rif-core to CL [on Christopher Welty - due 2007-05-01].

<sandro> ACTION: csma announce rif-core to Java Rules [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-rif-minutes.html#action03]

<rifbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - csma

<sandro> ACTION: christian announce rif-core to Java Rules [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-rif-minutes.html#action04]

<rifbot> Created ACTION-280 - Announce rif-core to Java Rules [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2007-05-01].

chris: any business rules people?

<PhilippeB> give it to csma

chris: ... any volunteers to announce core WD to business rules community

<sandro> ACTION: Christian account rif-core to BRCommunity [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-rif-minutes.html#action05]

<rifbot> Created ACTION-281 - Account rif-core to BRCommunity [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2007-05-01].

<josb> no, I never was

<josb> I just sent the email

chris: I will do OMG
... I mentioned to Lee Feigenbaum that we would like comments

<sandro> ACTION: Christopher announce rif-core to OMG [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-rif-minutes.html#action06]

<rifbot> Created ACTION-282 - Announce rif-core to OMG [on Christopher Welty - due 2007-05-01].

chris: mismo brew? was that a one time thing?
... do we need to notify them again?

<PhilippeB> OK

<sandro> ACTION: Christian to accounce rif-core to MISMO [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-rif-minutes.html#action07]

<rifbot> Created ACTION-283 - Accounce rif-core to MISMO [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2007-05-01].

chris: please everyone, spead the word around if you can
... we will now try the online demo setup
... we want to be able to share RIF demos, will test the setup today

<PhilippeB> http://ilog.on.raindance.com

<Hassan> I installed it - then what?

csma: go to "join unscheduled meeting"
... then choose level of download

<PhilippeB> Conference ID: 9250520

hassan: what should be my userid?

<PhilippeB> https://ilog.on.raindance.com

chris: we won't want to have to download software every time someone wants to give a demo

<Harold> Should we use the Full Version or the Light Version for the purpose of the demo today?

taking the 'full install' option of raindance allows you to give the demo

<sandro> testing. I want to see if this appears in raindance.

csma: look for 'meeting room'

chris: it looks like it's working for me
... hassan, were you able to find it?

hassan: I am going to repeat the download

<AllenGinsberg> hassan: open the application and you can join that way

sandro: can hassan and phillipe debug hassan's problem after the meeting

chris: did anyone else try and fail?

deborah: i got an error when I downloade full version

<PhilippeB> Yes, I will help anybody if needed after the meeting

deborah: i am now trying the light version

<sandro> On raindance I see: Gary, Allen, "Changhai", Chris, Deborah, Giorgos, Leora, Paula.

<GaryHallmark> I one of us "requests control", can we then present info from our computer to the rest?

<sandro> (but it says ten participants. presumably I am one, but one is missing.)

hassan joined successfully

chris: let's give another minute for questions/problems
... look's like it's basically working

<sandro> Ahhh.... I should have scrolled down.

<PhilippeB> OK

chris: when do you plan to do the demo?

philippe: we will try to do it next week

hassan: how long does demo take?

philippe: between 10 and 15 minutes

UCR

next item: issue 25

chris: there hasn't been much email

RIF Core

chris: bnodes, sandro, can you give a quick summary?

<ChrisW> Sandro's message: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Apr/0029.html

sandro: bnodes in RDF are logically equiv to existentially quantified variables
... scope is document
... how to map this to RIF?
... we need to figure out how other rule systems use bnodes and
... how that would map to rif core

sando: I think rif core already has what we need to handle this

sandro: rif core has file scrop existential vars also, even though they are not called that

(local names)

sandro: this is what I have thought so far, I don't have a high level of confidence in this

chris: a bnode is an implicitly existentially qualified variable
... local name in rif is not that

(would need quantification also)

sandro: depends on rdf graph...
... i got it wrong in my email

jos: there is a semantic difference
... local names which are globally unique for bnodes, but it will not eumulate everything in rdf
... eg, merging of rdf graphs
... two bnodes can indicate the same thing, but 2 local names will
... typically indicate different things

sandro: not necessarily true

<josb> p(_:a)

<josb> p(_:b)

jos: if you merge the above 2 in rdf, you will know that you have one thing
... but in ?? you will know you have two things

hassan: why isn't there a notion of a variable?
... a local name that can be bound and dereferenced

sandro: lots of discussion behind it

chris: it's an established standard and we have to understand how to be compatible with it

sandro: I htink we can think in terms of variables

jos: we don't hace notion of ex quant variables in facts in rif

<Harold> Sandro, RIF Core cannot currently assert 'existentially connected' facts as in Exists ?x (And ( p(a ?x) q(b ?x) ) ), while BNodes can express such 'document-global' existentials.

harold: i put an example in IRC

sandro: what if you have a contstant name? how is that different
... from an existentially quantified variable?

jos: there is a difference - skolem constant you have a name, variable you don't have a name
... i dont' have a good example at the moment, I will think about it

Replacing existentials with skolem constants should work if we 'localize' all constants to the documents in which they occur

harold: in rif working draft, constant "john" occurs in document

if you merge it with another document, it's the same johm

sandro: no, it shouldn't be the same!

chris: jos, you will come up with an example?

jos: for certain things it will work, and for others it will not work

<sandro> ACTION: Jos to present test case where b-nodes don't directly map to file-scope constants [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-rif-minutes.html#action08]

<rifbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - Jos

<rifbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jdebruij, jderoo)

chris: any other discussion on this topic?

<sandro> ACTION: JosDeBruin to present test case where b-nodes don't directly map to file-scope constants [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-rif-minutes.html#action09]

<rifbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - JosDeBruin

mk: i think there is a problem when you are trying to count
... if you skolemize it will be a seperate constant - if you want to count number of nodes....
... i5 normal constants, 10 bnodes...

if you skolemize you will say you have 15 nodes, but if you don't you will have 5

chris: I'm not sure we need to be able to count
... do we have a quality in core?

mk: yes
... yes
... when we introduce aggregate functions we may have problems
... if we treat them as sandro suggested, they will be treated as diff things

sandro: only if you have unique names asumption
... only if you have unique names asumption
... only if you have unique names asumption

<sandro> (I put the action in tracker via the web interface.)

chris: an existentially quantifed variable is not equal to something else
... rather you can bind it to something

jos: you can formulate a question are there different x and y so that b(x) and b(y) hold
... as soon as you start counting your query answers, the difference will show up
... sparql returns bnodes

sandro: ..bad practice

<Harold> s/harold: in rif working draft, constant "john" occurs in document/harold: If a constant "John" occurs in a document, it could be made unique by using the documents url as a unique prefix as in "http://example.org#John"/

chris: any other points?

<sandro> Harold, then it's not a file-scope name, it's a relative URI.

<sandro> (which isn't good enough for some applications, as I recall.)

ucr

allen: i have an outstanding action which I will try to get to

RIFRAF

chris: axel is not here

leora: I build an ontology on top of what allen had done

<ChrisW> Leora's message: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Apr/0061.html

leora: i sent that, along with some issues that I identified during the exercise

<sandro> Leora's e-mail

leora: the original raf had discriminators for ECA rules
...leora: ECA is generally for updating DBs
... I wanted to make it more general to cover action languages in general
... an action language would be useful for example in the medical use case
... there are some features they all have in common, but there are
... also features differ between the different languages
... the interesting exercise was to figure out how to categorize the features
... does the distinction belong to the model or the theory?
... we can discuss my results

sandro: where are we as far as ontologizing RIF core?

leora: I did this based on use cases to see what we would need
... in terms of RIF core syntax, these action rules can be represented as rules with heads and bodies...
... i classified these items under categories that we already have in the hierarchy

sandro: question about showing diagram at a glance with protoge

chris: project menu, configure, turn on owlviz and that plugin will draw a picture
... may need to install graph package

sandro: if someone can get picture, please mail to list and say how you got it

chris: it will be a big picture

allen: axel started with sandros, and I started with axel's, so we have all built on each other

<Hassan> The rest of us who do not knwo Protege need time to familiarize ourselves with it off line

leora: had question about some detail with disjunction and conjuntion in the file she started with

chris: axel was trying to classify rule language features, the things
... you would find in syntax of a conventional rule language
... you, leora, are extending it with additional things, such as temporal

leora: medical use case needs event calculus or situation calculas
... another case may need fluent calculas
... i think these things will be neede to cover the use cases at some point

paula: rifraf is about rule language and systems, not about concepts
... so I think we should look at languages and not use cases

leora: i was looking at actual languages

chris: I suggest a methodological approach, so that we can distinguish different parts
... owl has an import feature
... can have an owl version of the core features
... and then can import that and extend it

i.e. can have axel's piece as a seperate file/feature that can be imported seperately

scribe: these features you covered are far in the furture for RIF

<sandro> still on queue PaulaP ?

<PaulaP> no :)

chris: explicit notion of time in rule language, not in the short tem

leora: so you are not expecting to be able to translate into subsets of e.g. event calculus?

chris: will need a shared theory of time
... probably won't handle these features by end of this first part of wg, by november

leora: i will ontologize simple subset of one language

chris: use axel's as base, but exend in your own file

allen: I tried to represent the questions/discriminators in my section
... example: i had semantic structure as a class
... i tried to add properties and restrictions
... also, inference procedures decidable or undecidable
... i added comments indicating what I was trying to capture
... you would really need a rule language associated with this
... i didn't cover the part about modal operators

chris: how much more do you have to add?

allen: just the part about modal operators or higher order logics (this was difficult to deal with)

chris: seperate your pieces into seperate owl file that imports axel's base
... paula, did you want to add something here, you were originally part of effort

paula: i'm not sure. we looked at 5 reactive rule languages and we got
... the discrimminators from those
... i'm not sure if my approach is compatible with leora's

<Hassan> Paula is (like me) going BU while they go TD

paula: i will look at leora's and decide on next step

allen: conjunction under disjunction doe look like it was a case of something
... being accidentally moved
... (because it't not like that in axel's or my version)

<josb> In fulfillment of my action about bNodes: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Apr/0062.html

chris: any other comments?
... aob?

<Hassan> +1

<PaulaP> +1

chris: (none)

<sandro> +1 adjourn

propose to adjourn

<PaulaP> bye

This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.128  of Date: 2007/02/23 21:38:13  
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/phillipe/Philippe/
Succeeded: s/harold:  (missed what he said)/Replacing existentials with skolem constants should work if we 'localize' all constants to the documents in which they occur/
WARNING: Bad s/// command: s/harold: in rif working draft, constant "john" occurs in document/harold: If a constant "John" occurs in a document, it could be made unique by using the documents url as a unique prefix as in "http://example.org#John"/
Found ScribeNick: StellaMitchell
Found Scribe: Stella Mitchell
Default Present: [NRCC], Sandro, pfps, PaulaP, ChrisW, Leora_Morgenstern, josb, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, StellaMitchell, Deborah_Nichols, Allen_Ginsberg, Philippe_Bonnard, Gary_Hallmark, MichaelKifer
Present: [NRCC] Sandro pfps PaulaP ChrisW Leora_Morgenstern josb Hassan_Ait-Kaci StellaMitchell Deborah_Nichols Allen_Ginsberg Philippe_Bonnard Gary_Hallmark MichaelKifer
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Apr/0058.html
Got date from IRC log name: 24 Apr 2007
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2007/04/24-rif-minutes.html
People with action items: account announce christian christopher csma jos josdebruin rif-core sandro