See also: IRC log
<AllanJ> rrsagent set logs public
<AllanJ> scribe: Jan Richards
<AllanJ> agenda:
<JR> scribe: JR
JA: ACTION: KF
to 3f DONE
... ACTION: JA to Will combine KF's 3f and
3d
<scribe> DONE
JA: ACTION: KF to Send 1f text
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2007JanMar/0042.html
JA: Do we need "more" in
there
... or just "clarity"
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2007JanMar/0035.html
JA: ACTION: JR to Add a sentence to 3e saying we'll keep an eye on emerging
protocols in this area
<scribe> ACTION: JA to will do 1c [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/01-ua-minutes.html#action01]
JA: ACTION: JA
to will do 1c
... Discussing reviewing issue of wcag/uaag reponsibility
split
... Would like some more eyes on this
JR: Also maybe want to look at principle of split
JA: Example: Checkpoint 2.1.1
<AllanJ> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/guidelines.html#keyboard-operation
<AllanJ> 2.1.1 All functionality of the content is operable in a non-time-dependent manner through a keyboard interface, except where the task requires analog, time-dependent input.
JA: Doesn't seem like it should be here - author has no control of plugin
CL: But this could be a web app -
author does control
... But yes in the static web it's the browser or plugin who
provides this
<scribe> ACTION: JR to Take a look at the wcag/uaag relationship - division of responsibility [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/01-ua-minutes.html#action02]
JA: ACTION: JA
to Will do 2c
... As thinking thought we needed to define core behaviour in
browser before getting in to extnesions etc
<AllanJ> extensions (becomes native to the UA, may change UI and/or content or interaction with the content in viewport)
JA: Ex. can't get alt text from
keyboard without screen reader - with mouse can hover to get
tooltip
... We should always say mouse AND keyboard
CL: Right should be able to get tooltips from keyboard
JA: Right Doesn't know of any browser
CL: Author could do it
JA: I've tried
CL: In CL there is much bigger concept of tooltips - with controls etc
JA: OK there are two levels - plain HTML etc and ARIA level
<AllanJ> Assistive technology (external to the UA, have own UI, provide alternate views of content, provide alternate input/output interaction, may render conditional content)
JA: Will clean this up and send to the list
<cklaws> A plug-in is a program that runs as part of the user agent and that is not part of content. Users generally choose to include or exclude plug-ins from their user agent.
JA: We don't have a defintion for "extension"
<AllanJ> plugins (external to the UA, are a UA, may be embedded within content viewport, have own UI)
JA: TEITAC wrestling with plugin
issue...
... THey are a platform within a platform...
<AllanJ> Web applications (Flash?) author provide UI - content written appropriately, browser take content and sends to API
JA: Flash came up, sort of a plugin but author provide UI like a web application
CL: Wikipedia has some good definitions
JA: At one time, thought flash was a plugin...
<cklaws> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_2.0#Rich_Internet_applications
JA: Then...is SVG a plugin now that its in Firefox natively
JR: User agents don't need to be HTML only...
KF: Some technologies can be in both platforms
KK: Like acrobat vs reader
KK=KF
CL: Reader more accessible when not embedded
JA: Are charcterizations clear in extensions defn?
<cklaws> But Flash is currently only accessible as an ActiveX control in a Web page - in IE on Windows today
<AllanJ> > extensions (becomes native to the UA, may change UI and/or content or interaction with the content in viewport)
CL: I think of extensions on Firefox...
KF: IE has extensions as
well...
... ...Something added to Chrome...may interact on content
<cklaws> The term extension in a computing context most commonly refers to a computer program that although not useful or functional in its own right, is designed to be incorporated into another piece of software in order to enhance, or extend, the functionality.
<AllanJ> JR: extensions are going to be added to a UA, included in the conformance profile...browser + extension x, y, z conform
JR: I like CL's wikipedia example
JA: Agreed that extensions become part of chrome...
KF: THere's a firefox extension that adds numbers to all links
JA: Also ad-blocker
... Have seen extensions loaded into status bar
... Think my defn is ok so far
CL: OK its fine
<AllanJ> plugins (external to the UA, are a UA, may be embedded within content viewport, have own UI)
CL: This had been in UAAG
...
... But often APPEARS to be in content - even though not in
DOM
JA: OK current defn missing
that
... important piece.
... Was thinking specifically of media players...
... Have own user interface - stop, play volume slider...
... Outside of browser chrome, UA doesn't know about
them...
CL: Once in, keyboard handled by that use interface
JA: Maybe need to be more clear than term "UI"
KF: Yes need to clarify a bit more - especially what we mean by own UI
CL: They have their own controls and their own keyboard nav...
KF: Isn't this kind of plugin a user agent...
CL: Sometimes its a "player"...
<AllanJ> KF: browser is a player of html
<AllanJ> ...player is a UA
AJ: I've always though of plugins as players of different formats
AJ=JA
<AllanJ> CL: flash in a webpage, don't know that its not part of the content. doesn't have its own ui
KF: "DocHosted"
<AllanJ> ...other types of players, word & pdf are hosted applications with own controls and interface embeded in the browser
JR: Seems like between plugin and extension
<cklaws> Plugins are slightly different from extensions, which modify or add to existing functionality. The main difference is that plugins generally rely on the main application's user interface and have a well-defined boundary to their possible set of actions. Extensions generally have fewer restrictions on their actions, and may provide their own user interfaces.
KF: Plugin and extensions cover the field including DocHosting
CL: Plugins trying to use same chrome for diff content
<AllanJ> jr: plugins work with different types of content, may provide their own chrome
CL: Extensions opertating on same
content
... Plugins working on new kind of content
KF: Has to leave early
JA: Let's just finish AT, we'll
do the use cases next time
... Hypothetical...we have SVG native in browser...
... then not a plugin anymore...just has to follow UA
guidelines.
<AllanJ> Assistive technology (external to the UA, have own UI, provide alternate views of content, provide alternate input/output interaction, may render conditional content)
CL: OK we may want ot change AT
defn...
... In UAAG 1. went back and forth on whether it is a user
agent
... Further confused by integrated browsers...PWwebspeak,
HPR...
... But some ATs might be extensions
<AllanJ> ...- firevox, webadapt2me
CL: SOme might not be out of
process
... Inprocess - go to DOM to do nav etc., Out of process use
accessibility API
JA: Good point separate core tools from assistive tech functionality
<cklaws> my phone just died
<parente> mine too
<AllanJ> me too
<parente> must be IBM
<AllanJ> its almost end of time. lets just cal it quits
JA: Let's continue this next
time
... "Base" user agent
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.128 of Date: 2007/02/23 21:38:13 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Found Scribe: Jan Richards Found Scribe: JR Inferring ScribeNick: JR Scribes: Jan Richards, JR WARNING: No "Present: ... " found! Possibly Present: AJ AllanJ CL IBM JA Jim_Allan KF KFord KK P2 P3 cklaws jr parente You can indicate people for the Present list like this: <dbooth> Present: dbooth jonathan mary <dbooth> Present+ amy Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2007JanMar/0040.html Got date from IRC log name: 1 Mar 2007 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2007/03/01-ua-minutes.html People with action items: ja jr[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]