<ChrisW> Scribe: Frank McCabe

<ChrisW> ScribeNick: FrankMcCabe

<sandro> rifbot, help

<rifbot> See http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/ for help (use the IRC bot link)

Admin

next meeting: 21st december

<Deborah_Nichols> I have Christian's issue summary, and I will post it.

<sandro> It's a perl script, Frank. http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm?rev=1.47&content-type=text/html;%20charset=iso-8859-1

roundtripping actions done

<ChrisW> action 171 complete

<ChrisW> action 165 complete

<Deborah_Nichols> If you want to give me an action to post the roundtripping issue, go ahead.

proposed accept minutes of telecon nov14th

minutes accepted

<ChrisW> Resolved: accept Nov 14 minutes

proposed accept minutes of telecon nov21st

<ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept Nov 21 minutes

minutes of nov21 approved

proposed accept minutes of face2face of nov 4,5th

<ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept f2f4 minutes

minutes of face2face of nov 4,5th approved

next meeting: 12th

<Harold> How long will the seasonal break be Dec19 last? Jan 9th first?

Technical Design

<ChrisW> action-142 continued (indefinitely)

<sandro> we're looking at http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/products/9

<ChrisW> action-159 continued

<PaulaP> continued

<ChrisW> action-160 continued

<ChrisW> action 152 continued

<ChrisW> action 156 continued

<ChrisW> action 157 continued

<ChrisW> action 170 completed

<ChrisW> action 182 continued

<ChrisW> action 184 continued

<ChrisW> action 186 continued

<ChrisW> action 188 continued

discussing web-ized version of core proposal

<csma> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/A.1.0_Nucleus%3A_Positive_Conditions

michaelkifer: document modification of previous version

syntax and semantic more flexible,

removng distinction between constants, predicates and function symbols

use sorts to reintroduc distinction

this allows the use of URIs for constants, predicates etc.

also gives good connection with RDF

also allows primitive data types to be introduced

general mechanism

csma: why nucleus positive condition does not have slotted syntax

michael: two issues

<ChrisW> PaulV - any progress on your actions (complete questionnaire, rule examples for UC1, defn of covers)

slotted syntax can appears as formulae or terms

issue with model theory

<Harold> Christian, the current lack of slotted syntax in the Nucleus is also a Wiki page maintenance issue.

discussion needed with hassan

appears to be incompatible with conventional semantics

<Harold> I expanded the earlier page with slotted syntax, since the Nucleus page was not yet discussed.

<Zakim> sandro, you wanted to ask if this is talking about using URIs for individual integers or for the type/class of all integers

<Zakim> sandro2, you wanted to ask for clarification on difference between terms "core" and "nucleus"

sandro: do you mean URI for each integer?

michael: uri for sorts

sandro: what is the diference between core and nucleus

michael: just to distinguish two documents' proposals

alex: are we interested in round tripping to f-logic?

<sandro> MichaelKifer: I'm just using the term "nucleus" here to distinguish the document from the "core" document -- the choice of term is not semantic

alex: not nec. web-ized - core

michael: nucleau means not yet a core

<sandro> MichaelKifer: ALSO the core is going to be bigger than this, so maybe the nucleus is smaller than the core.

sloted syntax for terms/formula

csma: slots later please

daveR: could you explain why sorted approach is tied into web-ization

michael: it is not, it just helps
... if you introduce a wall, as between predicates and constants it is hard to remove later

without the wall, you can re-introduce somethng similar with sorts

platform for extensions

<ChrisW> michael, please try not to breath into the phone

e.g. decide later to allow dates as predicates or not

csma: you seem to make URIs semantic not syntactic feature

michael: URI is syntax not semantic

hassan: michael is proposing a fundamental idea of using sorts to partition the space
... term-level and preciate-level constructs are treated similarly

chrisw: trick not yet fully dealt with

leave to the semantics issues of what a URI really is

michael there is the semantic of multi-sorted logic

additional layers to encode our desirres

daveR: I am concerned about the entanglement of semantics and syntax

globally unique names is separate from types

<Hassan> Multi-sorted logic allows to separate signatures (i.e., sets of symbols) making up your expressions. The semantics of a sort is simply that of a domain of value.

michael: a URI is a string in a particular format

<Hassan> Sorts may have internal structures

there will be a URI sort, with a syntax and obvious semantics

other sorts may not be permitted to be predicates

chrisw: sorts not user defined

<Hassan> Sorts do not denote necessarily *finite* sets!

csma: not clear that sorts are syntactic only

chrisw: semantics not yet clarified

<Hassan> ChrisW is correct!

michael: in multi-sorted logic, sorts are part of the syntax

conventional semantics in terms of herbrand base

sorts are subsets of the universe

uris are simply syntax

URIs are analogous to identifiers

csma: we decided that global identifiers must be URIs

chrisw: URIs are tokens in the syntax

michael: we can have rules to define where things can be used

chrisw we can use sorts to clarify the role of particular identifiers

csma: the rules for URIs seem dificult to write

michael: we have to specific the syntax for each sort

csma: if an identifier is of a type X then it must have syntax Y

<Francois> zakium, ??P10 is me.

<sandro> MichaelKifer: Yes, the Herband Universe includes relations. This is a generalization of FO logic. By introducing the notion of sorts, you allow yourself to define FO logic.

<sandro> FrankMcCabe: If you're putting relations into the domain of discourse, this is not First Order logic.

<Francois> soterd logic is syntacally not first-order but the translation in first-order logic is trivial.

<sandro> MichaelKifer: You just define a "sort" of predicates, boolean, which gives you FO logic.

<Harold> Frank, you can split the universe into just the the common sorts of 1st order logic: Con, Fun, and Rel.

<sandro> FrankMcCabe: we don't WANT to generalize FO Logic. We don't need to do that.

<Francois> sorted logic is ***NOT*** hiher-order.

<AlexKozlenkov> It is not HO logic

<Francois> Higher-order required that ones quantifies over all possibnle sets - what Michael proposes is not of this kind.

<Francois> +1 with Hassan's explanations.

<sandro> Hassan: as long as you never synthesize relations, it's not Higher Order.

<Harold> Even if we allow Hilog/RDF-like querying of Rels, it's still only a conservative extension of 1st order logic.

<sandro> MichaelKifer: The semantics remains first order because it can be mapped into First Order Logic.

<scribe> ACTION: to explain in email his concern [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/05-rif-minutes.html#action01]

<rifbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - to

<scribe> ACTION: frankmccabe to explain in email his concern [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/05-rif-minutes.html#action02]

<rifbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - frankmccabe

<ChrisW> ACTION: francis to clarify problem with sorts [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/05-rif-minutes.html#action03]

<rifbot> Created ACTION-191 - Clarify problem with sorts [on Francis McCabe - due 2006-12-12].

<Harold> Semantically, even Hilog is still 1st order logic.

csma: is this the right way to web-ize the syntax?

is it enough?

chrisw: it allows us to web-ize the syntax, it still needs to be done

we need to define the rules

michael: we need to define the rules

csma: is this at the abstract syntax level, or concrete syntax level?

michael: probably at both levels

<ChrisW> action- 1

<ChrisW> action- 2

alexK: need to remind you that we handle java to rif also

rule set may be completely defined wrt local namespaces

csma: no word yet on mapping

alexK: mappings needed

csma: we will continue with approach for now

michael: concerns should be noted in email

<ChrisW> ACTION: harold to update CORE document with multi-sorted appraoch [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/05-rif-minutes.html#action04]

<rifbot> Created ACTION-192 - Update CORE document with multi-sorted appraoch [on Harold Boley - due 2006-12-12].

<DaveReynolds> What "current document"?

<ChrisW> current doc: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/CORE

csma: rif conditional language in core document
... slotted syntax

what is the meaning on the slots

hassan: I was trying to make it tutorial

can re-express regular unification in terms of constraints

e.g. CLP gives you logic with added benefits

also put in a lot of references to handle objects with constraints

next week?

csma: a little late

<ChrisW> ACTION: hassan to circulate document explaining CLP [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/05-rif-minutes.html#action05]

<rifbot> Created ACTION-193 - Circulate document explaining CLP [on Hassan Ait-Kaci - due 2006-12-12].

hassan: do my best

slotted notation is a notation for constraints

confusion between domains and data models

can use constraints to represent domains, terms, graphs etc.

any data model can be represented using constraints

slotted notation is a notation for constraints

csma: if you use constraints to represent a data model can it be re-interpreted as pattern matching and contraint solving

hassan: constraints allows you to capture the semantics of data models etc.

unifying formalism

csma: will using constraint mech to isolate the data model allow rules intoerchange between e.g. Prolog and e.g. object model language like ilog

hassan: yes

csma: would like an example

alexK: rountripping between f-logic and herbrand?
... roundtripping between production rules and prolog also?

gerd wegner's approach allows roundtripping

hassan: constraint also allows it

csma: will continue discussion of extensibility by email

F2F

csma: we have no alternate proposals for f2f 5

f2f 5 will be at Mitre in last week of feb

<sandro> PLEASE ANSWER THIS SURVEY: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/38457/f2f5-schedule/

csma: will you attend if it is two or three days

Liason

<PaulVincent> PRR liaison: no news

csma: Paul Vincent will be new liaison for PRR
... Thankyou to Axel for study on sparql and rif

UC&R

<ChrisW> action 144 continued

<ChrisW> action 72 continued

allenG: whether or not we include concept of translation should be equivalent

csma: equivalence is implied already

allenG: why not may it clearer
... you can say something is equivalent without writing hte software

csma: action is continued

allenG: cannot see an exit strategy at the moment

chrisw: how many proposals are there

what are the proposals?

paulV: let us review again next week

action 167 continued

action 168 continued

action 169 continued

action 181 continued

csma: what is the statu of the UCR document?
... what is the status of the UCR document?

allenG: sent out an email to editors to revise sections according to f2f
... issue wrt what phase I, II requirements mean
... on track to have UCR done early next year

csma: Do we need to map to specific actions for specific people?

<PaulVincent> Qu: where are the use cases numbered?

csma: people already agreed at the f2f

<Francois> bye

actions on people who did requirements on use cases

csma: they are listed in the minutes

<DaveReynolds> What about open issues for UCR?

RIF-RAF

action 148 continued

<PaulVincent> Continued

action 149 continued

action 172 continued

<LeoraMorgenstern> continued

action 173 continued

action 174 continued

action 175 continued

action 176 continued

action 177 continued

<PaulaP> continued

action 179 continued

action 187 continued

need to make more progress on actions

<Hassan> perhaps should we be less prompt to bestow actions without realistic deadlines?

hassan: there should be priorities attached to action items

deadline should be negotiated more realistically

hassan: action deadlines should be carefully decided

<Harold> How long will the seasonal break be? Dec 19 last telecon 2006? Jan 9th first telecon 2007?

AOB

people involved in technical design and rifraf and ucr should be prioritized

what is a vacation

what are the requirement for a vacation

<sandro> +1 adjourn

<JeffP> +1

<PaulaP> +1

<igor> bye

<PaulVincent> bye

<PaulaP> bye

<ChrisW> SANDRO!!!!!

<ChrisW> the log isn't public

<agiurca> -agiurca

<agiurca> quit

This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.127  of Date: 2005/08/16 15:12:03  
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Found Scribe: Frank McCabe
Found ScribeNick: FrankMcCabe
Default Present: Hassan_Ait-Kaci, FrankMcCabe, Harold, csma, ChrisW, Dave_Reynolds, +43.512.507.aaaa, MichaelKifer, Leora_Morgenstern, Deborah_Nichols, josb, PaulaP, Allen_Ginsberg, MoZ, +0122427aabb, Sandro, JeffP, AlexKozlenkov, +49.355.69.aacc, agiurca, PaulVincent, GiorgosStoilos, igor, Gary_Hallmark, Francois
Present: Hassan_Ait-Kaci FrankMcCabe Harold csma ChrisW Dave_Reynolds +43.512.507.aaaa MichaelKifer Leora_Morgenstern Deborah_Nichols josb PaulaP Allen_Ginsberg MoZ +0122427aabb Sandro JeffP AlexKozlenkov +49.355.69.aacc agiurca PaulVincent GiorgosStoilos igor Gary_Hallmark Francois
Regrets: AxelPolleres MichaelSintek DavidHirtle
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Dec/0003.html
Got date from IRC log name: 5 Dec 2006
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2006/12/05-rif-minutes.html
People with action items: francis frankmccabe harold hassan to

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