15:01:13 RRSAgent has joined #rif 15:01:13 logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/12/05-rif-irc 15:03:46 ChrisW has changed the topic to: 05 Dec RIF agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Dec/0003.html 15:04:18 Meeting: RIF Telecon 5 Dec 06 15:04:18 Chair: Christian de Sainte-Marie 15:04:18 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Dec/0003.html 15:04:49 Zakim, read agenda from http://www.w3.org/2006/10/17-rif-agenda.rdf 15:04:49 working on it, ChrisW 15:04:50 agenda+ Admin' [ChrisW] 15:04:52 agendum 1 added 15:04:54 agenda+ F2F [ChrisW] 15:04:56 agendum 2 added 15:04:57 agenda+ Liason [ChrisW] 15:04:58 agendum 3 added 15:04:59 agenda+ Technical Design [ChrisW] 15:05:00 agendum 4 added 15:05:01 agenda+ RIF-RAF [ChrisW] 15:05:02 agendum 5 added 15:05:03 agenda+ UCR [ChrisW] 15:05:05 agendum 6 added 15:05:06 agenda+ AOB [ChrisW] 15:05:08 agendum 7 added 15:05:10 done reading agenda, ChrisW 15:05:22 zakim, clear agenda 15:05:22 agenda cleared 15:05:32 agenda+ Admin 15:05:41 Agenda+ F2F 15:05:46 Agenda+ Liason 15:05:53 Agenda+ Technical Design 15:06:01 Agenda+ UC&R 15:06:07 Agenda+ RIF-RAF 15:06:11 Agenda+ AOB 15:20:16 Zakim, this will be rif 15:20:16 ok, MoZ; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 40 minutes 15:50:48 MichaelKifer has joined #rif 15:54:40 FrankMcCabe has joined #rif 15:56:10 zakim, what is the code? 15:56:11 the conference code is 74394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200), FrankMcCabe 15:56:37 csma has joined #rif 15:56:37 Hassan has joined #rif 15:57:14 SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started 15:57:21 +Hassan_Ait-Kaci 15:57:42 Harold has joined #rif 15:57:48 +[IPcaller] 15:57:53 zakim, ipcaller is me 15:57:53 +FrankMcCabe; got it 15:58:27 +[NRCC] 15:58:43 zakim, [NRCC] is me 15:58:43 +Harold; got it 15:59:08 +??P7 15:59:20 zakim, ??P7 is me 15:59:20 +csma; got it 15:59:26 zakim, sho is on the phone? 15:59:26 I don't understand your question, csma. 15:59:27 +[IBM] 15:59:28 zakim, [ibm] is temporarily me 15:59:28 +ChrisW; got it 15:59:32 DaveReynolds has joined #rif 15:59:36 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:59:36 On the phone I see Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), FrankMcCabe, Harold, csma, ChrisW 16:00:18 +??P13 16:00:21 +Dave_Reynolds (was ??P13) 16:00:28 LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif 16:00:29 josb has joined #rif 16:00:29 patranja has joined #rif 16:00:40 + +43.512.507.aaaa 16:00:59 zakim, who is talking? 16:01:01 Deborah_Nichols has joined #rif 16:01:10 zakim, aaaa is me 16:01:14 ChrisW, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: csma (38%), +43.512.507.aaaa (35%) 16:01:16 +MichaelKifer; got it 16:01:32 +Jos_de_Bruijn 16:01:35 zakim, mute me 16:01:40 MichaelKifer should now be muted 16:01:46 +Leora_Morgenstern 16:01:47 +Deborah_Nichols 16:01:50 Zakim, what is the code ? 16:01:50 the conference code is 74394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200), MoZ 16:01:53 JeffP has joined #rif 16:02:07 zakim, please mute me 16:02:07 Leora_Morgenstern should now be muted 16:02:09 Allen has joined #rif 16:02:16 +[LMU] 16:02:37 zakim, [LMU] is temporarily me 16:02:37 +PaulaP; got it 16:02:46 sandro has joined #rif 16:02:46 +??P26 16:02:48 zakim, who is on the phone? 16:02:49 On the phone I see Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), FrankMcCabe, Harold, csma, ChrisW, Dave_Reynolds, MichaelKifer (muted), josb (muted), Deborah_Nichols (muted), Leora_Morgenstern 16:02:51 Zakim, ?? is me 16:02:54 ... (muted), PaulaP (muted), ??P26 16:02:54 Scribe: Frank McCabe 16:02:54 ScribeNick: FrankMcCabe 16:02:56 +Allen_Ginsberg 16:03:00 +MoZ; got it 16:03:01 rifbot, help 16:03:01 See http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/ for help (use the IRC bot link) 16:03:15 Zakim, ??P26 is me 16:03:15 I already had ??P26 as MoZ, MoZ 16:03:22 zakim, mute me 16:03:22 Allen_Ginsberg should now be muted 16:03:23 + +0122427aabb 16:03:26 AlexKozlenkov has joined #rif 16:03:32 +Sandro 16:04:26 zakim, what is the agenda 16:04:26 I don't understand 'what is the agenda', FrankMcCabe 16:04:28 zakim, who is on the phone? 16:04:28 On the phone I see Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), FrankMcCabe, Harold, csma, ChrisW, Dave_Reynolds, MichaelKifer (muted), josb (muted), Deborah_Nichols (muted), Leora_Morgenstern 16:04:30 mdean has joined #rif 16:04:32 ... (muted), PaulaP (muted), MoZ, Allen_Ginsberg (muted), JeffP, Sandro 16:04:34 zakim, next item 16:04:34 agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW] 16:04:54 next meeting: 21st december 16:05:09 +??P32 16:05:19 zakim, ??P32 is me 16:05:19 +AlexKozlenkov; got it 16:05:24 I have Christian's issue summary, and I will post it. 16:05:25 It's a perl script, Frank. http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm?rev=1.47&content-type=text/html;%20charset=iso-8859-1 16:05:28 roundtripping actions done 16:05:29 zakim, mute me 16:05:29 AlexKozlenkov should now be muted 16:05:45 action 171 complete 16:05:57 action 165 complete 16:05:59 If you want to give me an action to post the roundtripping issue, go ahead. 16:06:00 proposed accept minutes of telecon nov14th 16:06:12 minutes accepted 16:06:14 Resolved: accept Nov 14 minutes 16:06:23 proposed accept minutes of telecon nov21st 16:06:28 RESOLVED: accept Nov 21 minutes 16:06:33 minutes of nov21 approved 16:06:51 agiurca has joined #rif 16:06:51 proposed accept minutes of face2face of nov 4,5th 16:06:58 RESOLVED: accept f2f4 minutes 16:07:03 minutes of face2face of nov 4,5th approved 16:07:23 next meeting: 12th 16:07:29 How long will the seasonal break be Dec19 last? Jan 9th first? 16:07:52 zakim, list agenda? 16:07:52 I see 7 items remaining on the agenda: 16:07:53 1. Admin [from ChrisW] 16:07:54 2. F2F [from ChrisW] 16:07:55 3. Liason [from ChrisW] 16:07:57 4. Technical Design [from ChrisW] 16:07:59 5. UC&R [from ChrisW] 16:08:01 6. RIF-RAF [from ChrisW] 16:08:02 7. AOB [from ChrisW] 16:08:04 + +49.355.69.aacc 16:08:10 zakim, close item 1 16:08:10 agendum 1, Admin, closed 16:08:11 I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 16:08:12 2. F2F [from ChrisW] 16:08:18 zakim, take up item 4 16:08:20 agendum 4. "Technical Design" taken up [from ChrisW] 16:08:36 zakim, aacc is agiurca 16:08:36 +agiurca; got it 16:08:47 zakim, mute me 16:08:47 agiurca should now be muted 16:08:57 action-142 continued (indefinitely) 16:09:06 zakim, unmute me 16:09:06 Leora_Morgenstern should no longer be muted 16:09:45 we're looking at http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/products/9 16:09:50 zakim, mute me 16:09:50 Leora_Morgenstern should now be muted 16:09:51 action-159 continued 16:09:52 continued 16:10:00 action-160 continued 16:10:20 action 152 continued 16:10:24 action 156 continued 16:10:36 action 157 continued 16:10:47 zakim, unmute me 16:10:47 AlexKozlenkov should no longer be muted 16:10:58 action 170 completed 16:11:25 action 182 continued 16:11:30 zakim, mute me 16:11:30 AlexKozlenkov should now be muted 16:11:54 action 184 continued 16:12:10 action 186 continued 16:12:24 action 188 continued 16:12:55 discussing web-ized version of core proposal 16:13:06 http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/A.1.0_Nucleus%3A_Positive_Conditions 16:13:20 ack michael 16:13:22 zakim, unmute me 16:13:22 MichaelKifer was not muted, MichaelKifer 16:13:39 cgi-irc has joined #rif 16:13:40 michaelkifer: document modification of previous version 16:13:51 syntax and semantic more flexible, 16:13:58 igor has joined #rif 16:14:06 removng distinction between constants, predicates and function symbols 16:14:17 use sorts to reintroduc distinction 16:14:41 this allows the use of URIs for constants, predicates etc. 16:14:45 +[IPcaller] 16:14:57 also gives good connection with RDF 16:15:14 also allows primitive data types to be introduced 16:15:20 q? 16:15:46 GiorgosStoilos has joined #rif 16:15:51 general mechanism 16:16:18 csma: why nucleus positive condition does not have slotted syntax 16:16:29 michael: two issues 16:16:29 q+ to ask if this is talking about using URIs for individual integers or for the type/class of all integers 16:16:38 PaulV - any progress on your actions (complete questionnaire, rule examples for UC1, defn of covers) 16:16:43 slotted syntax can appears as formulae or terms 16:16:54 issue with model theory 16:16:57 +[IVML] 16:17:03 Christian, the current lack of slotted syntax in the Nucleus is also a Wiki page maintenance issue. 16:17:10 q+ 16:17:10 discussion needed with hassan 16:17:16 zakim, [IVML] is me 16:17:16 +GiorgosStoilos; got it 16:17:35 appears to be incompatible with conventional semantics 16:17:40 q+ sandro2 to ask for clarification on difference between terms "core" and "nucleus" 16:17:55 q+ 16:17:55 I expanded the earlier page with slotted syntax, since the Nucleus page was not yet discussed. 16:18:07 ack sandro 16:18:07 sandro, you wanted to ask if this is talking about using URIs for individual integers or for the type/class of all integers 16:18:12 ack sandro 16:18:13 sandro2, you wanted to ask for clarification on difference between terms "core" and "nucleus" 16:18:36 sandro: do you mean URI for each integer? 16:18:51 michael: uri for sorts 16:19:19 +[IPcaller] 16:19:31 sandro: what is the diference between core and nucleus 16:19:37 zakim, [IPcaller] is me 16:19:37 +igor; got it 16:19:44 zakim, mute me 16:19:44 igor should now be muted 16:19:51 michael: just to distinguish two documents' proposals 16:19:57 zakim, unmute me 16:19:57 AlexKozlenkov should no longer be muted 16:19:59 ack alex 16:20:16 alex: are we interested in round tripping to f-logic? 16:20:38 MichaelKifer: I'm just using the term "nucleus" here to distinguish the document from the "core" document -- the choice of term is not semantic 16:20:43 alex: not nec. web-ized - core 16:20:55 michael: nucleau means not yet a core 16:21:15 MichaelKifer: ALSO the core is going to be bigger than this, so maybe the nucleus is smaller than the core. 16:21:28 sloted syntax for terms/formula 16:21:39 zakim, mute me 16:21:39 AlexKozlenkov should now be muted 16:21:42 csma: slots later please 16:21:47 ack dave 16:21:48 ack me 16:22:18 daveR: could you explain why sorted approach is tied into web-ization 16:22:29 michael: it is not, it just helps 16:22:59 michael: if you introduce a wall, as between predicates and constants it is hard to remove later 16:23:18 without the wall, you can re-introduce somethng similar with sorts 16:23:28 platform for extensions 16:24:00 q+ 16:24:03 michael, please try not to breath into the phone 16:24:56 e.g. decide later to allow dates as predicates or not 16:25:20 csma: you seem to make URIs semantic not syntactic feature 16:25:35 michael: URI is syntax not semantic 16:25:43 ack hassan 16:26:11 hassan: michael is proposing a fundamental idea of using sorts to partition the space 16:26:31 +Gary_Hallmark 16:26:49 hassan: term-level and preciate-level constructs are treated similarly 16:27:16 chrisw: trick not yet fully dealt with 16:27:31 leave to the semantics issues of what a URI really is 16:27:44 michael there is the semantic of multi-sorted logic 16:28:01 q+ 16:28:29 ack dave 16:28:30 ack me 16:28:31 additional layers to encode our desirres 16:28:32 GaryHallmark has joined #rif 16:28:57 daveR: I am concerned about the entanglement of semantics and syntax 16:29:14 globally unique names is separate from types 16:29:28 Multi-sorted logic allows to separate signatures (i.e., sets of symbols) making up your expressions. The semantics of a sort is simply that of a domain of value. 16:29:34 michael: a URI is a string in a particular format 16:30:10 Sorts may have internal structures 16:30:16 there will be a URI sort, with a syntax and obvious semantics 16:30:32 other sorts may not be permitted to be predicates 16:30:42 chrisw: sorts not user defined 16:31:00 Sorts do not denote necessarily *finite* sets! 16:31:09 csma: not clear that sorts are syntactic only 16:31:21 chrisw: semantics not yet clarified 16:31:23 ChrisW is correct! 16:31:49 michael: in multi-sorted logic, sorts are part of the syntax 16:32:17 conventional semantics in terms of herbrand base 16:32:26 sorts are subsets of the universe 16:32:28 q+ 16:32:36 q? 16:32:49 uris are simply syntax 16:33:26 q+ 16:33:33 URIs are analogous to identifiers 16:34:12 csma: we decided that global identifiers must be URIs 16:34:26 chrisw: URIs are tokens in the syntax 16:34:33 q? 16:35:54 michael: we can have rules to define where things can be used 16:36:21 chrisw we can use sorts to clarify the role of particular identifiers 16:36:46 csma: the rules for URIs seem dificult to write 16:37:07 michael: we have to specific the syntax for each sort 16:37:42 Francois has joined #rif 16:37:59 csma: if an identifier is of a type X then it must have syntax Y 16:37:59 ack franck 16:38:10 ack frank 16:38:30 +??P10 16:38:41 zakium, ??P10 is me. 16:38:49 zakim, ??P10 is me. 16:38:49 +Francois; got it 16:39:38 MichaelKifer: Yes, the Herband Universe includes relations. This is a generalization of FO logic. By introducing the notion of sorts, you allow yourself to define FO logic. 16:39:57 FrankMcCabe: If you're putting relations into the domain of discourse, this is not First Order logic. 16:40:08 soterd logic is syntacally not first-order but the translation in first-order logic is trivial. 16:40:19 MichaelKifer: You just define a "sort" of predicates, boolean, which gives you FO logic. 16:40:56 q? 16:41:04 Frank, you can split the universe into just the the common sorts of 1st order logic: Con, Fun, and Rel. 16:41:06 FrankMcCabe: we don't WANT to generalize FO Logic. We don't need to do that. 16:41:13 sorted logic is ***NOT*** hiher-order. 16:42:06 It is not HO logic 16:42:09 Higher-order required that ones quantifies over all possibnle sets - what Michael proposes is not of this kind. 16:42:10 ack hassan 16:42:41 +1 with Hassan's explanations. 16:42:52 Hassan: as long as you never synthesize relations, it's not Higher Order. 16:44:02 Even if we allow Hilog/RDF-like querying of Rels, it's still only a conservative extension of 1st order logic. 16:44:14 MichaelKifer: The semantics remains first order because it can be mapped into First Order Logic. 16:44:27 action: to explain in email his concern 16:44:27 Sorry, couldn't find user - to 16:44:38 action: frankmccabe to explain in email his concern 16:44:38 Sorry, couldn't find user - frankmccabe 16:44:43 action: francis to clarify problem with sorts 16:44:43 Created ACTION-191 - Clarify problem with sorts [on Francis McCabe - due 2006-12-12]. 16:44:47 Semantically, even Hilog is still 1st order logic. 16:44:55 rrsagent, remove action 1 16:44:55 I'm logging. I don't understand 'remove action 1', ChrisW. Try /msg RRSAgent help 16:45:13 csma: is this the right way to web-ize the syntax? 16:45:26 is it enough? 16:45:34 zakim, please mute me. 16:45:34 Francois should now be muted 16:45:39 q+ 16:45:46 q? 16:45:47 chrisw: it allows us to web-ize the syntax, it still needs to be done 16:46:00 we need to define the rules 16:46:01 q+ 16:46:06 michael: we need to define the rules 16:46:23 csma: is this at the abstract syntax level, or concrete syntax level? 16:46:41 michael: probably at both levels 16:46:43 q- 16:47:10 ack alex 16:47:12 zakim, unmute me 16:47:12 AlexKozlenkov was not muted, AlexKozlenkov 16:47:13 action- 1 16:47:22 action- 2 16:47:56 alexK: need to remind you that we handle java to rif also 16:48:19 zakim, who is speaking? 16:48:29 csma, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: MichaelKifer (59%), AlexKozlenkov (53%) 16:48:30 rule set may be completely defined wrt local namespaces 16:49:16 csma: no word yet on mapping 16:49:25 alexK: mappings needed 16:49:31 zakim, mute me 16:49:31 AlexKozlenkov should now be muted 16:49:33 q? 16:50:06 csma: we will continue with approach for now 16:50:20 michael: concerns should be noted in email 16:51:06 action: harold to update CORE document with multi-sorted appraoch 16:51:06 Created ACTION-192 - Update CORE document with multi-sorted appraoch [on Harold Boley - due 2006-12-12]. 16:51:09 What "current document"? 16:51:30 current doc: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/CORE 16:51:48 -MichaelKifer 16:51:57 csma: rif conditional language in core document 16:52:09 csma: slotted syntax 16:52:22 what is the meaning on the slots 16:52:29 ack hassan 16:52:52 hassan: I was trying to make it tutorial 16:53:46 can re-express regular unification in terms of constraints 16:54:13 e.g. CLP gives you logic with added benefits 16:54:36 also put in a lot of references to handle objects with constraints 16:54:47 next week? 16:54:56 csma: a little late 16:55:06 action: hassan to circulate document explaining CLP 16:55:06 Created ACTION-193 - Circulate document explaining CLP [on Hassan Ait-Kaci - due 2006-12-12]. 16:55:08 hassan: do my best 16:56:19 slotted notation is a notation for constraints 16:56:43 confusion between domains and data models 16:57:07 can use constraints to represent domains, terms, graphs etc. 16:57:24 Francois has joined #rif 16:57:27 any data model can be represented using constraints 16:57:36 q? 16:57:40 slotted notation is a notation for constraints 16:58:36 csma: if you use constraints to represent a data model can it be re-interpreted as pattern matching and contraint solving 16:58:45 zakim, who is on the phone? 16:58:46 On the phone I see Hassan_Ait-Kaci, FrankMcCabe, Harold, csma, ChrisW, Dave_Reynolds, josb (muted), Deborah_Nichols (muted), Leora_Morgenstern (muted), PaulaP (muted), MoZ, 16:58:50 ... Allen_Ginsberg (muted), JeffP, Sandro, AlexKozlenkov (muted), agiurca (muted), PaulVincent, GiorgosStoilos, igor (muted), Gary_Hallmark, Francois (muted) 16:59:07 hassan: constraints allows you to capture the semantics of data models etc. 16:59:27 unifying formalism 17:00:12 csma: will using constraint mech to isolate the data model allow rules intoerchange between e.g. Prolog and e.g. object model language like ilog 17:00:18 hassan: yes 17:00:25 q+ 17:00:33 csma: would like an example 17:01:05 zakim, unmute me 17:01:05 AlexKozlenkov should no longer be muted 17:01:25 ack alex 17:01:43 alexK: rountripping between f-logic and herbrand? 17:01:57 alexK: roundtripping between production rules and prolog also? 17:02:31 gerd wegner's approach allows roundtripping 17:02:35 zakim, list agenda 17:02:35 I see 6 items remaining on the agenda: 17:02:36 2. F2F [from ChrisW] 17:02:37 3. Liason [from ChrisW] 17:02:38 4. Technical Design [from ChrisW] 17:02:39 5. UC&R [from ChrisW] 17:02:40 6. RIF-RAF [from ChrisW] 17:02:41 7. AOB [from ChrisW] 17:02:42 hassan: constraint also allows it 17:02:44 zakim, mute me 17:02:44 AlexKozlenkov should now be muted 17:02:57