IRC log of rif on 2006-12-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:01:13 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #rif
15:01:13 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/12/05-rif-irc
15:03:46 [ChrisW]: ChrisW has changed the topic to: 05 Dec RIF agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Dec/0003.html
15:04:18 [ChrisW]: Meeting: RIF Telecon 5 Dec 06
15:04:18 [ChrisW]: Chair: Christian de Sainte-Marie
15:04:18 [ChrisW]: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Dec/0003.html
15:04:49 [ChrisW]: Zakim, read agenda from http://www.w3.org/2006/10/17-rif-agenda.rdf
15:04:49 [Zakim]: working on it, ChrisW
15:04:50 [Zakim]: agenda+ Admin' [ChrisW]
15:04:52 [Zakim]: agendum 1 added
15:04:54 [Zakim]: agenda+ F2F [ChrisW]
15:04:56 [Zakim]: agendum 2 added
15:04:57 [Zakim]: agenda+ Liason [ChrisW]
15:04:58 [Zakim]: agendum 3 added
15:04:59 [Zakim]: agenda+ Technical Design [ChrisW]
15:05:00 [Zakim]: agendum 4 added
15:05:01 [Zakim]: agenda+ RIF-RAF [ChrisW]
15:05:02 [Zakim]: agendum 5 added
15:05:03 [Zakim]: agenda+ UCR [ChrisW]
15:05:05 [Zakim]: agendum 6 added
15:05:06 [Zakim]: agenda+ AOB [ChrisW]
15:05:08 [Zakim]: agendum 7 added
15:05:10 [Zakim]: done reading agenda, ChrisW
15:05:22 [ChrisW]: zakim, clear agenda
15:05:22 [Zakim]: agenda cleared
15:05:32 [ChrisW]: agenda+ Admin
15:05:41 [ChrisW]: Agenda+ F2F
15:05:46 [ChrisW]: Agenda+ Liason
15:05:53 [ChrisW]: Agenda+ Technical Design
15:06:01 [ChrisW]: Agenda+ UC&R
15:06:07 [ChrisW]: Agenda+ RIF-RAF
15:06:11 [ChrisW]: Agenda+ AOB
15:20:16 [MoZ]: Zakim, this will be rif
15:20:16 [Zakim]: ok, MoZ; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 40 minutes
15:50:48 [MichaelKifer]: MichaelKifer has joined #rif
15:54:40 [FrankMcCabe]: FrankMcCabe has joined #rif
15:56:10 [FrankMcCabe]: zakim, what is the code?
15:56:11 [Zakim]: the conference code is 74394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200), FrankMcCabe
15:56:37 [csma]: csma has joined #rif
15:56:37 [Hassan]: Hassan has joined #rif
15:57:14 [Zakim]: SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:57:21 [Zakim]: +Hassan_Ait-Kaci
15:57:42 [Harold]: Harold has joined #rif
15:57:48 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
15:57:53 [FrankMcCabe]: zakim, ipcaller is me
15:57:53 [Zakim]: +FrankMcCabe; got it
15:58:27 [Zakim]: +[NRCC]
15:58:43 [Harold]: zakim, [NRCC] is me
15:58:43 [Zakim]: +Harold; got it
15:59:08 [Zakim]: +??P7
15:59:20 [csma]: zakim, ??P7 is me
15:59:20 [Zakim]: +csma; got it
15:59:26 [csma]: zakim, sho is on the phone?
15:59:26 [Zakim]: I don't understand your question, csma.
15:59:27 [Zakim]: +[IBM]
15:59:28 [ChrisW]: zakim, [ibm] is temporarily me
15:59:28 [Zakim]: +ChrisW; got it
15:59:32 [DaveReynolds]: DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:59:36 [csma]: zakim, who is on the phone?
15:59:36 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), FrankMcCabe, Harold, csma, ChrisW
16:00:18 [Zakim]: +??P13
16:00:21 [Zakim]: +Dave_Reynolds (was ??P13)
16:00:28 [LeoraMorgenstern]: LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
16:00:29 [josb]: josb has joined #rif
16:00:29 [patranja]: patranja has joined #rif
16:00:40 [Zakim]: + +43.512.507.aaaa
16:00:59 [ChrisW]: zakim, who is talking?
16:01:01 [Deborah_Nichols]: Deborah_Nichols has joined #rif
16:01:10 [MichaelKifer]: zakim, aaaa is me
16:01:14 [Zakim]: ChrisW, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: csma (38%), +43.512.507.aaaa (35%)
16:01:16 [Zakim]: +MichaelKifer; got it
16:01:32 [Zakim]: +Jos_de_Bruijn
16:01:35 [MichaelKifer]: zakim, mute me
16:01:40 [Zakim]: MichaelKifer should now be muted
16:01:46 [Zakim]: +Leora_Morgenstern
16:01:47 [Zakim]: +Deborah_Nichols
16:01:50 [MoZ]: Zakim, what is the code ?
16:01:50 [Zakim]: the conference code is 74394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200), MoZ
16:01:53 [JeffP]: JeffP has joined #rif
16:02:07 [LeoraMorgenstern]: zakim, please mute me
16:02:07 [Zakim]: Leora_Morgenstern should now be muted
16:02:09 [Allen]: Allen has joined #rif
16:02:16 [Zakim]: +[LMU]
16:02:37 [PaulaP]: zakim, [LMU] is temporarily me
16:02:37 [Zakim]: +PaulaP; got it
16:02:46 [sandro]: sandro has joined #rif
16:02:46 [Zakim]: +??P26
16:02:48 [csma]: zakim, who is on the phone?
16:02:49 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), FrankMcCabe, Harold, csma, ChrisW, Dave_Reynolds, MichaelKifer (muted), josb (muted), Deborah_Nichols (muted), Leora_Morgenstern
16:02:51 [MoZ]: Zakim, ?? is me
16:02:54 [Zakim]: ... (muted), PaulaP (muted), ??P26
16:02:54 [ChrisW]: Scribe: Frank McCabe
16:02:54 [ChrisW]: ScribeNick: FrankMcCabe
16:02:56 [Zakim]: +Allen_Ginsberg
16:03:00 [Zakim]: +MoZ; got it
16:03:01 [sandro]: rifbot, help
16:03:01 [rifbot]: See http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/ for help (use the IRC bot link)
16:03:15 [MoZ]: Zakim, ??P26 is me
16:03:15 [Zakim]: I already had ??P26 as MoZ, MoZ
16:03:22 [Allen]: zakim, mute me
16:03:22 [Zakim]: Allen_Ginsberg should now be muted
16:03:23 [Zakim]: + +0122427aabb
16:03:26 [AlexKozlenkov]: AlexKozlenkov has joined #rif
16:03:32 [Zakim]: +Sandro
16:04:26 [FrankMcCabe]: zakim, what is the agenda
16:04:26 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'what is the agenda', FrankMcCabe
16:04:28 [ChrisW]: zakim, who is on the phone?
16:04:28 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), FrankMcCabe, Harold, csma, ChrisW, Dave_Reynolds, MichaelKifer (muted), josb (muted), Deborah_Nichols (muted), Leora_Morgenstern
16:04:30 [mdean]: mdean has joined #rif
16:04:32 [Zakim]: ... (muted), PaulaP (muted), MoZ, Allen_Ginsberg (muted), JeffP, Sandro
16:04:34 [ChrisW]: zakim, next item
16:04:34 [Zakim]: agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:04:54 [FrankMcCabe]: next meeting: 21st december
16:05:09 [Zakim]: +??P32
16:05:19 [AlexKozlenkov]: zakim, ??P32 is me
16:05:19 [Zakim]: +AlexKozlenkov; got it
16:05:24 [Deborah_Nichols]: I have Christian's issue summary, and I will post it.
16:05:25 [sandro]: It's a perl script, Frank. http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm?rev=1.47&content-type=text/html;%20charset=iso-8859-1
16:05:28 [FrankMcCabe]: roundtripping actions done
16:05:29 [AlexKozlenkov]: zakim, mute me
16:05:29 [Zakim]: AlexKozlenkov should now be muted
16:05:45 [ChrisW]: action 171 complete
16:05:57 [ChrisW]: action 165 complete
16:05:59 [Deborah_Nichols]: If you want to give me an action to post the roundtripping issue, go ahead.
16:06:00 [FrankMcCabe]: proposed accept minutes of telecon nov14th
16:06:12 [FrankMcCabe]: minutes accepted
16:06:14 [ChrisW]: Resolved: accept Nov 14 minutes
16:06:23 [FrankMcCabe]: proposed accept minutes of telecon nov21st
16:06:28 [ChrisW]: RESOLVED: accept Nov 21 minutes
16:06:33 [FrankMcCabe]: minutes of nov21 approved
16:06:51 [agiurca]: agiurca has joined #rif
16:06:51 [FrankMcCabe]: proposed accept minutes of face2face of nov 4,5th
16:06:58 [ChrisW]: RESOLVED: accept f2f4 minutes
16:07:03 [FrankMcCabe]: minutes of face2face of nov 4,5th approved
16:07:23 [FrankMcCabe]: next meeting: 12th
16:07:29 [Harold]: How long will the seasonal break be Dec19 last? Jan 9th first?
16:07:52 [ChrisW]: zakim, list agenda?
16:07:52 [Zakim]: I see 7 items remaining on the agenda:
16:07:53 [Zakim]: 1. Admin [from ChrisW]
16:07:54 [Zakim]: 2. F2F [from ChrisW]
16:07:55 [Zakim]: 3. Liason [from ChrisW]
16:07:57 [Zakim]: 4. Technical Design [from ChrisW]
16:07:59 [Zakim]: 5. UC&R [from ChrisW]
16:08:01 [Zakim]: 6. RIF-RAF [from ChrisW]
16:08:02 [Zakim]: 7. AOB [from ChrisW]
16:08:04 [Zakim]: + +49.355.69.aacc
16:08:10 [ChrisW]: zakim, close item 1
16:08:10 [Zakim]: agendum 1, Admin, closed
16:08:11 [Zakim]: I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:08:12 [Zakim]: 2. F2F [from ChrisW]
16:08:18 [ChrisW]: zakim, take up item 4
16:08:20 [Zakim]: agendum 4. "Technical Design" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:08:36 [agiurca]: zakim, aacc is agiurca
16:08:36 [Zakim]: +agiurca; got it
16:08:47 [agiurca]: zakim, mute me
16:08:47 [Zakim]: agiurca should now be muted
16:08:57 [ChrisW]: action-142 continued (indefinitely)
16:09:06 [LeoraMorgenstern]: zakim, unmute me
16:09:06 [Zakim]: Leora_Morgenstern should no longer be muted
16:09:45 [sandro]: we're looking at http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/products/9
16:09:50 [LeoraMorgenstern]: zakim, mute me
16:09:50 [Zakim]: Leora_Morgenstern should now be muted
16:09:51 [ChrisW]: action-159 continued
16:09:52 [PaulaP]: continued
16:10:00 [ChrisW]: action-160 continued
16:10:20 [ChrisW]: action 152 continued
16:10:24 [ChrisW]: action 156 continued
16:10:36 [ChrisW]: action 157 continued
16:10:47 [AlexKozlenkov]: zakim, unmute me
16:10:47 [Zakim]: AlexKozlenkov should no longer be muted
16:10:58 [ChrisW]: action 170 completed
16:11:25 [ChrisW]: action 182 continued
16:11:30 [AlexKozlenkov]: zakim, mute me
16:11:30 [Zakim]: AlexKozlenkov should now be muted
16:11:54 [ChrisW]: action 184 continued
16:12:10 [ChrisW]: action 186 continued
16:12:24 [ChrisW]: action 188 continued
16:12:55 [FrankMcCabe]: discussing web-ized version of core proposal
16:13:06 [csma]: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/A.1.0_Nucleus%3A_Positive_Conditions
16:13:20 [csma]: ack michael
16:13:22 [MichaelKifer]: zakim, unmute me
16:13:22 [Zakim]: MichaelKifer was not muted, MichaelKifer
16:13:39 [cgi-irc]: cgi-irc has joined #rif
16:13:40 [FrankMcCabe]: michaelkifer: document modification of previous version
16:13:51 [FrankMcCabe]: syntax and semantic more flexible,
16:13:58 [igor]: igor has joined #rif
16:14:06 [FrankMcCabe]: removng distinction between constants, predicates and function symbols
16:14:17 [FrankMcCabe]: use sorts to reintroduc distinction
16:14:41 [FrankMcCabe]: this allows the use of URIs for constants, predicates etc.
16:14:45 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
16:14:57 [FrankMcCabe]: also gives good connection with RDF
16:15:14 [FrankMcCabe]: also allows primitive data types to be introduced
16:15:20 [sandro]: q?
16:15:46 [GiorgosStoilos]: GiorgosStoilos has joined #rif
16:15:51 [FrankMcCabe]: general mechanism
16:16:18 [FrankMcCabe]: csma: why nucleus positive condition does not have slotted syntax
16:16:29 [FrankMcCabe]: michael: two issues
16:16:29 [sandro]: q+ to ask if this is talking about using URIs for individual integers or for the type/class of all integers
16:16:38 [ChrisW]: PaulV - any progress on your actions (complete questionnaire, rule examples for UC1, defn of covers)
16:16:43 [FrankMcCabe]: slotted syntax can appears as formulae or terms
16:16:54 [FrankMcCabe]: issue with model theory
16:16:57 [Zakim]: +[IVML]
16:17:03 [Harold]: Christian, the current lack of slotted syntax in the Nucleus is also a Wiki page maintenance issue.
16:17:10 [AlexKozlenkov]: q+
16:17:10 [FrankMcCabe]: discussion needed with hassan
16:17:16 [GiorgosStoilos]: zakim, [IVML] is me
16:17:16 [Zakim]: +GiorgosStoilos; got it
16:17:35 [FrankMcCabe]: appears to be incompatible with conventional semantics
16:17:40 [sandro]: q+ sandro2 to ask for clarification on difference between terms "core" and "nucleus"
16:17:55 [DaveReynolds]: q+
16:17:55 [Harold]: I expanded the earlier page with slotted syntax, since the Nucleus page was not yet discussed.
16:18:07 [sandro]: ack sandro
16:18:07 [Zakim]: sandro, you wanted to ask if this is talking about using URIs for individual integers or for the type/class of all integers
16:18:12 [csma]: ack sandro
16:18:13 [Zakim]: sandro2, you wanted to ask for clarification on difference between terms "core" and "nucleus"
16:18:36 [FrankMcCabe]: sandro: do you mean URI for each integer?
16:18:51 [FrankMcCabe]: michael: uri for sorts
16:19:19 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
16:19:31 [FrankMcCabe]: sandro: what is the diference between core and nucleus
16:19:37 [igor]: zakim, [IPcaller] is me
16:19:37 [Zakim]: +igor; got it
16:19:44 [igor]: zakim, mute me
16:19:44 [Zakim]: igor should now be muted
16:19:51 [FrankMcCabe]: michael: just to distinguish two documents' proposals
16:19:57 [AlexKozlenkov]: zakim, unmute me
16:19:57 [Zakim]: AlexKozlenkov should no longer be muted
16:19:59 [csma]: ack alex
16:20:16 [FrankMcCabe]: alex: are we interested in round tripping to f-logic?
16:20:38 [sandro]: MichaelKifer: I'm just using the term "nucleus" here to distinguish the document from the "core" document -- the choice of term is not semantic
16:20:43 [FrankMcCabe]: alex: not nec. web-ized - core
16:20:55 [FrankMcCabe]: michael: nucleau means not yet a core
16:21:15 [sandro]: MichaelKifer: ALSO the core is going to be bigger than this, so maybe the nucleus is smaller than the core.
16:21:28 [FrankMcCabe]: sloted syntax for terms/formula
16:21:39 [AlexKozlenkov]: zakim, mute me
16:21:39 [Zakim]: AlexKozlenkov should now be muted
16:21:42 [FrankMcCabe]: csma: slots later please
16:21:47 [csma]: ack dave
16:21:48 [DaveReynolds]: ack me
16:22:18 [FrankMcCabe]: daveR: could you explain why sorted approach is tied into web-ization
16:22:29 [FrankMcCabe]: michael: it is not, it just helps
16:22:59 [FrankMcCabe]: michael: if you introduce a wall, as between predicates and constants it is hard to remove later
16:23:18 [FrankMcCabe]: without the wall, you can re-introduce somethng similar with sorts
16:23:28 [FrankMcCabe]: platform for extensions
16:24:00 [Hassan]: q+
16:24:03 [ChrisW]: michael, please try not to breath into the phone
16:24:56 [FrankMcCabe]: e.g. decide later to allow dates as predicates or not
16:25:20 [FrankMcCabe]: csma: you seem to make URIs semantic not syntactic feature
16:25:35 [FrankMcCabe]: michael: URI is syntax not semantic
16:25:43 [csma]: ack hassan
16:26:11 [FrankMcCabe]: hassan: michael is proposing a fundamental idea of using sorts to partition the space
16:26:31 [Zakim]: +Gary_Hallmark
16:26:49 [FrankMcCabe]: hassan: term-level and preciate-level constructs are treated similarly
16:27:16 [FrankMcCabe]: chrisw: trick not yet fully dealt with
16:27:31 [FrankMcCabe]: leave to the semantics issues of what a URI really is
16:27:44 [FrankMcCabe]: michael there is the semantic of multi-sorted logic
16:28:01 [DaveReynolds]: q+
16:28:29 [csma]: ack dave
16:28:30 [DaveReynolds]: ack me
16:28:31 [FrankMcCabe]: additional layers to encode our desirres
16:28:32 [GaryHallmark]: GaryHallmark has joined #rif
16:28:57 [FrankMcCabe]: daveR: I am concerned about the entanglement of semantics and syntax
16:29:14 [FrankMcCabe]: globally unique names is separate from types
16:29:28 [Hassan]: Multi-sorted logic allows to separate signatures (i.e., sets of symbols) making up your expressions. The semantics of a sort is simply that of a domain of value.
16:29:34 [FrankMcCabe]: michael: a URI is a string in a particular format
16:30:10 [Hassan]: Sorts may have internal structures
16:30:16 [FrankMcCabe]: there will be a URI sort, with a syntax and obvious semantics
16:30:32 [FrankMcCabe]: other sorts may not be permitted to be predicates
16:30:42 [FrankMcCabe]: chrisw: sorts not user defined
16:31:00 [Hassan]: Sorts do not denote necessarily *finite* sets!
16:31:09 [FrankMcCabe]: csma: not clear that sorts are syntactic only
16:31:21 [FrankMcCabe]: chrisw: semantics not yet clarified
16:31:23 [Hassan]: ChrisW is correct!
16:31:49 [FrankMcCabe]: michael: in multi-sorted logic, sorts are part of the syntax
16:32:17 [FrankMcCabe]: conventional semantics in terms of herbrand base
16:32:26 [FrankMcCabe]: sorts are subsets of the universe
16:32:28 [FrankMcCabe]: q+
16:32:36 [ChrisW]: q?
16:32:49 [FrankMcCabe]: uris are simply syntax
16:33:26 [Hassan]: q+
16:33:33 [FrankMcCabe]: URIs are analogous to identifiers
16:34:12 [FrankMcCabe]: csma: we decided that global identifiers must be URIs
16:34:26 [FrankMcCabe]: chrisw: URIs are tokens in the syntax
16:34:33 [csma]: q?
16:35:54 [FrankMcCabe]: michael: we can have rules to define where things can be used
16:36:21 [FrankMcCabe]: chrisw we can use sorts to clarify the role of particular identifiers
16:36:46 [FrankMcCabe]: csma: the rules for URIs seem dificult to write
16:37:07 [FrankMcCabe]: michael: we have to specific the syntax for each sort
16:37:42 [Francois]: Francois has joined #rif
16:37:59 [FrankMcCabe]: csma: if an identifier is of a type X then it must have syntax Y
16:37:59 [csma]: ack franck
16:38:10 [csma]: ack frank
16:38:30 [Zakim]: +??P10
16:38:41 [Francois]: zakium, ??P10 is me.
16:38:49 [Francois]: zakim, ??P10 is me.
16:38:49 [Zakim]: +Francois; got it
16:39:38 [sandro]: MichaelKifer: Yes, the Herband Universe includes relations. This is a generalization of FO logic. By introducing the notion of sorts, you allow yourself to define FO logic.
16:39:57 [sandro]: FrankMcCabe: If you're putting relations into the domain of discourse, this is not First Order logic.
16:40:08 [Francois]: soterd logic is syntacally not first-order but the translation in first-order logic is trivial.
16:40:19 [sandro]: MichaelKifer: You just define a "sort" of predicates, boolean, which gives you FO logic.
16:40:56 [csma]: q?
16:41:04 [Harold]: Frank, you can split the universe into just the the common sorts of 1st order logic: Con, Fun, and Rel.
16:41:06 [sandro]: FrankMcCabe: we don't WANT to generalize FO Logic. We don't need to do that.
16:41:13 [Francois]: sorted logic is ***NOT*** hiher-order.
16:42:06 [AlexKozlenkov]: It is not HO logic
16:42:09 [Francois]: Higher-order required that ones quantifies over all possibnle sets - what Michael proposes is not of this kind.
16:42:10 [csma]: ack hassan
16:42:41 [Francois]: +1 with Hassan's explanations.
16:42:52 [sandro]: Hassan: as long as you never synthesize relations, it's not Higher Order.
16:44:02 [Harold]: Even if we allow Hilog/RDF-like querying of Rels, it's still only a conservative extension of 1st order logic.
16:44:14 [sandro]: MichaelKifer: The semantics remains first order because it can be mapped into First Order Logic.
16:44:27 [FrankMcCabe]: action: to explain in email his concern
16:44:27 [rifbot]: Sorry, couldn't find user - to
16:44:38 [FrankMcCabe]: action: frankmccabe to explain in email his concern
16:44:38 [rifbot]: Sorry, couldn't find user - frankmccabe
16:44:43 [ChrisW]: action: francis to clarify problem with sorts
16:44:43 [rifbot]: Created ACTION-191 - Clarify problem with sorts [on Francis McCabe - due 2006-12-12].
16:44:47 [Harold]: Semantically, even Hilog is still 1st order logic.
16:44:55 [ChrisW]: rrsagent, remove action 1
16:44:55 [RRSAgent]: I'm logging. I don't understand 'remove action 1', ChrisW. Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:45:13 [FrankMcCabe]: csma: is this the right way to web-ize the syntax?
16:45:26 [FrankMcCabe]: is it enough?
16:45:34 [Francois]: zakim, please mute me.
16:45:34 [Zakim]: Francois should now be muted
16:45:39 [AlexKozlenkov]: q+
16:45:46 [csma]: q?
16:45:47 [FrankMcCabe]: chrisw: it allows us to web-ize the syntax, it still needs to be done
16:46:00 [FrankMcCabe]: we need to define the rules
16:46:01 [DaveReynolds]: q+
16:46:06 [FrankMcCabe]: michael: we need to define the rules
16:46:23 [FrankMcCabe]: csma: is this at the abstract syntax level, or concrete syntax level?
16:46:41 [FrankMcCabe]: michael: probably at both levels
16:46:43 [DaveReynolds]: q-
16:47:10 [csma]: ack alex
16:47:12 [AlexKozlenkov]: zakim, unmute me
16:47:12 [Zakim]: AlexKozlenkov was not muted, AlexKozlenkov
16:47:13 [ChrisW]: action- 1
16:47:22 [ChrisW]: action- 2
16:47:56 [FrankMcCabe]: alexK: need to remind you that we handle java to rif also
16:48:19 [csma]: zakim, who is speaking?
16:48:29 [Zakim]: csma, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: MichaelKifer (59%), AlexKozlenkov (53%)
16:48:30 [FrankMcCabe]: rule set may be completely defined wrt local namespaces
16:49:16 [FrankMcCabe]: csma: no word yet on mapping
16:49:25 [FrankMcCabe]: alexK: mappings needed
16:49:31 [AlexKozlenkov]: zakim, mute me
16:49:31 [Zakim]: AlexKozlenkov should now be muted
16:49:33 [csma]: q?
16:50:06 [FrankMcCabe]: csma: we will continue with approach for now
16:50:20 [FrankMcCabe]: michael: concerns should be noted in email
16:51:06 [ChrisW]: action: harold to update CORE document with multi-sorted appraoch
16:51:06 [rifbot]: Created ACTION-192 - Update CORE document with multi-sorted appraoch [on Harold Boley - due 2006-12-12].
16:51:09 [DaveReynolds]: What "current document"?
16:51:30 [ChrisW]: current doc: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/CORE
16:51:48 [Zakim]: -MichaelKifer
16:51:57 [FrankMcCabe]: csma: rif conditional language in core document
16:52:09 [FrankMcCabe]: csma: slotted syntax
16:52:22 [FrankMcCabe]: what is the meaning on the slots
16:52:29 [csma]: ack hassan
16:52:52 [FrankMcCabe]: hassan: I was trying to make it tutorial
16:53:46 [FrankMcCabe]: can re-express regular unification in terms of constraints
16:54:13 [FrankMcCabe]: e.g. CLP gives you logic with added benefits
16:54:36 [FrankMcCabe]: also put in a lot of references to handle objects with constraints
16:54:47 [FrankMcCabe]: next week?
16:54:56 [FrankMcCabe]: csma: a little late
16:55:06 [ChrisW]: action: hassan to circulate document explaining CLP
16:55:06 [rifbot]: Created ACTION-193 - Circulate document explaining CLP [on Hassan Ait-Kaci - due 2006-12-12].
16:55:08 [FrankMcCabe]: hassan: do my best
16:56:19 [FrankMcCabe]: slotted notation is a notation for constraints
16:56:43 [FrankMcCabe]: confusion between domains and data models
16:57:07 [FrankMcCabe]: can use constraints to represent domains, terms, graphs etc.
16:57:24 [Francois]: Francois has joined #rif
16:57:27 [FrankMcCabe]: any data model can be represented using constraints
16:57:36 [csma]: q?
16:57:40 [FrankMcCabe]: slotted notation is a notation for constraints
16:58:36 [FrankMcCabe]: csma: if you use constraints to represent a data model can it be re-interpreted as pattern matching and contraint solving
16:58:45 [ChrisW]: zakim, who is on the phone?
16:58:46 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Hassan_Ait-Kaci, FrankMcCabe, Harold, csma, ChrisW, Dave_Reynolds, josb (muted), Deborah_Nichols (muted), Leora_Morgenstern (muted), PaulaP (muted), MoZ,
16:58:50 [Zakim]: ... Allen_Ginsberg (muted), JeffP, Sandro, AlexKozlenkov (muted), agiurca (muted), PaulVincent, GiorgosStoilos, igor (muted), Gary_Hallmark, Francois (muted)
16:59:07 [FrankMcCabe]: hassan: constraints allows you to capture the semantics of data models etc.
16:59:27 [FrankMcCabe]: unifying formalism
17:00:12 [FrankMcCabe]: csma: will using constraint mech to isolate the data model allow rules intoerchange between e.g. Prolog and e.g. object model language like ilog
17:00:18 [FrankMcCabe]: hassan: yes
17:00:25 [AlexKozlenkov]: q+
17:00:33 [FrankMcCabe]: csma: would like an example
17:01:05 [AlexKozlenkov]: zakim, unmute me
17:01:05 [Zakim]: AlexKozlenkov should no longer be muted
17:01:25 [csma]: ack alex
17:01:43 [FrankMcCabe]: alexK: rountripping between f-logic and herbrand?
17:01:57 [FrankMcCabe]: alexK: roundtripping between production rules and prolog also?
17:02:31 [FrankMcCabe]: gerd wegner's approach allows roundtripping
17:02:35 [ChrisW]: zakim, list agenda
17:02:35 [Zakim]: I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
17:02:36 [Zakim]: 2. F2F [from ChrisW]
17:02:37 [Zakim]: 3. Liason [from ChrisW]
17:02:38 [Zakim]: 4. Technical Design [from ChrisW]
17:02:39 [Zakim]: 5. UC&R [from ChrisW]
17:02:40 [Zakim]: 6. RIF-RAF [from ChrisW]
17:02:41 [Zakim]: 7. AOB [from ChrisW]
17:02:42 [FrankMcCabe]: hassan: constraint also allows it
17:02:44 [AlexKozlenkov]: zakim, mute me
17:02:44 [Zakim]: AlexKozlenkov should now be muted
17:02:57 [Zakim]: -MoZ
17:03:03 [ChrisW]: zakim, close item 4
17:03:03 [Zakim]: agendum 4, Technical Design, closed
17:03:04 [Zakim]: I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:03:05 [Zakim]: 2. F2F [from ChrisW]
17:03:30 [csma]: q?
17:03:34 [FrankMcCabe]: csma: will continue discussion of extensibility by email
17:03:39 [ChrisW]: zakim, next item
17:03:39 [Zakim]: agendum 2. "F2F" taken up [from ChrisW]
17:04:04 [FrankMcCabe]: csma: we have no alternate proposals for f2f 5
17:04:15 [FrankMcCabe]: f2f 5 will be at Mitre in last week of feb
17:04:33 [sandro]: PLEASE ANSWER THIS SURVEY: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/38457/f2f5-schedule/
17:05:17 [FrankMcCabe]: csma: will you attend if it is two or three days
17:06:03 [ChrisW]: zakim, next item
17:06:03 [Zakim]: agendum 3. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]
17:06:23 [PaulVincent]: PRR liaison: no news
17:06:30 [FrankMcCabe]: csma: Paul Vincent will be new liaison for PRR
17:06:57 [FrankMcCabe]: csma: Thankyou to Axel for study on sparql and rif
17:07:09 [ChrisW]: zakim, close item 3
17:07:09 [Zakim]: agendum 3, Liason, closed
17:07:10 [Zakim]: I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:07:11 [Zakim]: 5. UC&R [from ChrisW]
17:07:13 [ChrisW]: zakim, next item
17:07:14 [Zakim]: agendum 5. "UC&R" taken up [from ChrisW]
17:07:33 [ChrisW]: action 144 continued
17:09:14 [ChrisW]: action 72 continued
17:09:55 [Zakim]: -Leora_Morgenstern
17:10:11 [Allen]: zakim, unmute me
17:10:11 [Zakim]: Allen_Ginsberg should no longer be muted
17:11:13 [FrankMcCabe]: allenG: whether or not we include concept of translation should be equivalent
17:11:24 [FrankMcCabe]: csma: equivalence is implied already
17:11:36 [Zakim]: +Leora_Morgenstern
17:11:42 [FrankMcCabe]: allenG: why not may it clearer
17:12:22 [FrankMcCabe]: allenG: you can say something is equivalent without writing hte software
17:12:48 [FrankMcCabe]: csma: action is continued
17:13:05 [FrankMcCabe]: allenG: cannot see an exit strategy at the moment
17:13:31 [csma]: q?
17:13:51 [FrankMcCabe]: chrisw: how many proposals are there
17:13:59 [FrankMcCabe]: what are the proposals?
17:14:31 [FrankMcCabe]: paulV: let us review again next week
17:14:52 [FrankMcCabe]: action 167 continued
17:14:56 [FrankMcCabe]: action 168 continued
17:14:59 [FrankMcCabe]: action 169 continued
17:15:14 [FrankMcCabe]: action 181 continued
17:15:38 [FrankMcCabe]: csma: what is the statu of the UCR document?
17:15:47 [FrankMcCabe]: csma: what is the status of the UCR document?
17:16:12 [FrankMcCabe]: allenG: sent out an email to editors to revise sections according to f2f
17:16:50 [FrankMcCabe]: allenG: issue wrt what phase I, II requirements mean
17:17:54 [FrankMcCabe]: allenG: on track to have UCR done early next year
17:18:37 [FrankMcCabe]: csma: Do we need to map to specific actions for specific people?
17:19:04 [PaulVincent]: Qu: where are the use cases numbered?
17:19:27 [DaveReynolds]: q+
17:19:28 [FrankMcCabe]: csma: people already agreed at the f2f
17:19:36 [Francois]: bye
17:19:44 [Zakim]: -Francois
17:20:35 [FrankMcCabe]: actions on people who did requirements on use cases
17:20:37 [DaveReynolds]: q-
17:21:06 [FrankMcCabe]: csma: they are listed in the minutes
17:21:14 [csma]: ack dave
17:21:23 [DaveReynolds]: What about open issues for UCR?
17:21:29 [FrankMcCabe]: zakim, next item
17:21:29 [Zakim]: agendum 6. "RIF-RAF" taken up [from ChrisW]
17:21:59 [FrankMcCabe]: action 148 continued
17:22:02 [PaulVincent]: Continued
17:22:05 [FrankMcCabe]: action 149 continued
17:22:26 [FrankMcCabe]: action 172 continued
17:22:28 [LeoraMorgenstern]: continued
17:22:42 [FrankMcCabe]: action 173 continued
17:22:47 [FrankMcCabe]: action 174 continued
17:22:51 [FrankMcCabe]: action 175 continued
17:23:01 [FrankMcCabe]: action 176 continued
17:23:11 [FrankMcCabe]: action 177 continued
17:23:23 [PaulaP]: continued
17:23:26 [FrankMcCabe]: action 179 continued
17:23:42 [FrankMcCabe]: action 187 continued
17:24:36 [FrankMcCabe]: need to make more progress on actions
17:25:24 [Hassan]: perhaps should we be less prompt to bestow actions without realistic deadlines?
17:26:29 [csma]: q?
17:26:38 [ChrisW]: Regrets: AxelPolleres, MichaelSintek, DavidHirtle
17:27:00 [Hassan]: q+
17:27:27 [csma]: ack hassan
17:27:48 [FrankMcCabe]: hassan: there should be priorities attached to action items
17:28:04 [FrankMcCabe]: deadline should be negotiated more realistically
17:29:12 [FrankMcCabe]: hassan: action deadlines should be carefully decided
17:29:53 [Harold]: How long will the seasonal break be? Dec 19 last telecon 2006? Jan 9th first telecon 2007?
17:29:58 [ChrisW]: zakim, next item
17:29:58 [Zakim]: agendum 7. "AOB" taken up [from ChrisW]
17:30:00 [FrankMcCabe]: people involved in technical design and rifraf and ucr should be prioritized
17:30:38 [Zakim]: -Dave_Reynolds
17:30:42 [FrankMcCabe]: what is a vacation
17:31:08 [FrankMcCabe]: what are the requirement for a vacation
17:31:14 [sandro]: +1 adjourn
17:31:17 [JeffP]: +1
17:31:18 [Zakim]: -Hassan_Ait-Kaci
17:31:19 [PaulaP]: +1
17:31:21 [igor]: bye
17:31:21 [Zakim]: -Harold
17:31:22 [Zakim]: -Gary_Hallmark
17:31:22 [Zakim]: -PaulVincent
17:31:23 [PaulVincent]: bye
17:31:23 [Zakim]: -AlexKozlenkov
17:31:23 [PaulaP]: bye
17:31:25 [Zakim]: -Leora_Morgenstern
17:31:26 [Zakim]: -Allen_Ginsberg
17:31:26 [Zakim]: -josb
17:31:27 [Zakim]: -JeffP
17:31:28 [Zakim]: -Deborah_Nichols
17:31:29 [PaulaP]: PaulaP has left #rif
17:31:30 [Zakim]: -igor
17:31:32 [Zakim]: -PaulaP
17:31:39 [Zakim]: -GiorgosStoilos
17:31:50 [ChrisW]: rrsagent, make minutes
17:31:50 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/12/05-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
17:32:01 [sandro]: RRSAgent, make record public
17:32:06 [Zakim]: -Sandro
17:32:10 [ChrisW]: rrsagent, make logs public
17:33:01 [ChrisW]: rrsagent, make logs public
17:33:36 [ChrisW]: SANDRO!!!!!
17:33:46 [ChrisW]: the log isn't public
17:34:37 [agiurca]: -agiurca
17:35:02 [agiurca]: quit
17:35:40 [agiurca]: zakim, quit me
17:35:40 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'quit me', agiurca
17:36:02 [Zakim]: -FrankMcCabe
17:36:13 [Zakim]: -agiurca
17:36:15 [Zakim]: -ChrisW
17:36:16 [Zakim]: -csma
17:36:17 [Zakim]: SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
17:36:19 [Zakim]: Attendees were Hassan_Ait-Kaci, FrankMcCabe, Harold, csma, ChrisW, Dave_Reynolds, +43.512.507.aaaa, MichaelKifer, Leora_Morgenstern, Deborah_Nichols, josb, PaulaP, Allen_Ginsberg,
17:36:23 [Zakim]: ... MoZ, +0122427aabb, Sandro, JeffP, AlexKozlenkov, +49.355.69.aacc, agiurca, PaulVincent, GiorgosStoilos, igor, Gary_Hallmark, Francois
17:36:27 [ChrisW]: rrsagent, make minutes
17:36:27 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/12/05-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
17:37:04 [ChrisW]: ok, they should be ready
17:37:09 [ChrisW]: rrsagent, make logs public
17:37:17 [ChrisW]: i still can't get to them
18:07:33 [csma]: csma has left #rif
20:03:39 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #rif
21:18:07 [sandro]: sandro has joined #rif