IRC log of rif on 2006-10-31

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:19:25 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #rif
15:19:25 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/10/31-rif-irc
15:20:20 [ChrisW]: zakim, this will be rif
15:20:20 [Zakim]: ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 40 minutes
15:21:36 [ChrisW]: Meeting: RIF Telecon 31 Oct 06
15:21:36 [ChrisW]: Chair: Christian de Sainte-Marie
15:21:36 [ChrisW]: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Oct/0112.html
15:21:36 [ChrisW]: Scribe: Gerd Wagner
15:22:01 [ChrisW]: Zakim, read agenda from http://www.w3.org/2006/10/17-rif-agenda.rdf
15:22:01 [Zakim]: working on it, ChrisW
15:22:02 [Zakim]: done reading agenda, ChrisW
15:23:21 [ChrisW]: agenda+ Admin
15:23:44 [ChrisW]: agenda+ F2F
15:23:52 [ChrisW]: agenda+ Liason
15:24:00 [ChrisW]: agenda+ Technical Design
15:24:10 [ChrisW]: agenda+ RIF-RAF
15:24:19 [ChrisW]: agenda+ UCR
15:24:22 [ChrisW]: agenda+ AOB
15:26:12 [ChrisW]: rrsagent, make minutes
15:26:12 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/10/31-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
15:27:50 [ChrisW]: rrsagent, make logs public
15:29:54 [Harold]: Harold has joined #rif
15:46:14 [agiurca]: agiurca has joined #rif
15:54:17 [patranja]: patranja has joined #rif
15:55:16 [DavidHirtle]: DavidHirtle has joined #rif
15:55:44 [csma]: csma has joined #rif
15:56:28 [Zakim]: SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:56:35 [Zakim]: +??P4
15:56:45 [csma]: zakim, ??P4 is me
15:56:45 [Zakim]: +csma; got it
15:57:01 [Hassan]: Hassan has joined #rif
15:57:29 [Zakim]: +[NRCC]
15:58:01 [Harold]: zakim, [NRCC] is me
15:58:01 [Zakim]: +Harold; got it
15:58:30 [Zakim]: +Hassan_Ait-Kaci
15:58:45 [ChrisW]: Regrets: IgorMozetic MichaelKifer PaulVincent Fran�oisBry MarkusKr�tzsch MichaelSintek ElisaKendall
15:59:08 [Deborah_Nichols]: Deborah_Nichols has joined #rif
15:59:25 [JeffP]: JeffP has joined #rif
15:59:29 [Zakim]: +[IBM]
15:59:37 [ChrisW]: zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:59:37 [Zakim]: +ChrisW; got it
15:59:38 [Zakim]: +Deborah_Nichols
16:00:00 [Zakim]: +Gerd_Wagner
16:00:02 [Allen]: Allen has joined #rif
16:00:26 [Zakim]: +G
16:00:26 [GerdWagner]: GerdWagner has joined #rif
16:00:32 [josb]: josb has joined #rif
16:00:53 [csma]: zakim, who is on the phone?
16:00:53 [Zakim]: On the phone I see csma, Harold, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), ChrisW, Deborah_Nichols (muted), Gerd_Wagner, G
16:00:54 [ChrisW]: zakim, Gerd_Wagner is GerdWagner
16:00:55 [Zakim]: +GerdWagner; got it
16:00:58 [Zakim]: + +22427aaaa
16:00:59 [Zakim]: +Allen_Ginsberg
16:01:00 [Zakim]: -GerdWagner
16:01:07 [ChrisW]: scribenick: GerdWagner
16:01:12 [AlexKozlenkov]: AlexKozlenkov has joined #rif
16:01:13 [Zakim]: +[LMU]
16:01:16 [StellaMitchell]: StellaMitchell has joined #rif
16:01:23 [Allen]: zakim, mute me
16:01:23 [Zakim]: Allen_Ginsberg should now be muted
16:01:26 [PaulaP]: zakim, [LMU] is temporarily me
16:01:26 [Zakim]: +PaulaP; got it
16:01:37 [LeoraMorgenstern]: LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
16:01:44 [Zakim]: +??P15
16:01:52 [AxelPolleres]: AxelPolleres has joined #rif
16:02:00 [ChrisW]: zakim, who is on the phone?
16:02:00 [Zakim]: On the phone I see csma, Harold, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), ChrisW, Deborah_Nichols (muted), G, JeffP, Allen_Ginsberg (muted), PaulaP (muted), ??P15
16:02:09 [Zakim]: +GerdWagner
16:02:13 [Zakim]: +Axel_Polleres
16:02:15 [DaveReynolds]: DaveReynolds has joined #rif
16:02:20 [Zakim]: +[IBM]
16:02:23 [StellaMitchell]: zakim, [ibm] is temporarily me
16:02:23 [Zakim]: +StellaMitchell; got it
16:02:32 [Zakim]: +Sandro
16:02:33 [agiurca]: Zakim, mute me
16:02:34 [Zakim]: sorry, agiurca, I do not see a party named 'agiurca'
16:02:38 [Zakim]: +Leora_Morgenstern
16:02:44 [Zakim]: +??P32
16:02:47 [LeoraMorgenstern]: zakim, mute me
16:02:49 [AlexKozlenkov]: zakim, ??P32 is me
16:02:54 [Zakim]: Leora_Morgenstern should now be muted
16:02:58 [agiurca]: Zakim, ??P15 is me
16:03:01 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
16:03:07 [Zakim]: +AlexKozlenkov; got it
16:03:08 [csma]: zakim, who is on the phone?
16:03:11 [Zakim]: +??P34
16:03:15 [Zakim]: I already had ??P15 as josb, agiurca
16:03:15 [AlexKozlenkov]: zakim, please mute me
16:03:19 [Zakim]: +Dave_Reynolds (was ??P34)
16:03:27 [Zakim]: On the phone I see csma, Harold, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), ChrisW, Deborah_Nichols (muted), G, JeffP, Allen_Ginsberg (muted), PaulaP (muted), josb (muted), GerdWagner, Axel_Polleres
16:03:32 [Zakim]: ... (muted), StellaMitchell, Sandro (muted), Leora_Morgenstern (muted), AlexKozlenkov, DavidHirtle, Dave_Reynolds
16:03:40 [Zakim]: AlexKozlenkov should now be muted
16:03:41 [AlexKozlenkov]: zakim, mute me
16:03:48 [Zakim]: AlexKozlenkov was already muted, AlexKozlenkov
16:04:37 [csma]: ack G
16:04:45 [JeffP]: zakim, G is adrian
16:04:45 [Zakim]: +adrian; got it
16:04:52 [agiurca]: Zakim G is agiurca
16:05:21 [ChrisW]: ChrisW has joined #rif
16:05:24 [Zakim]: +Mike_Dean
16:05:27 [agiurca]: Zakim, mute me
16:05:27 [Zakim]: sorry, agiurca, I do not see a party named 'agiurca'
16:05:43 [ChrisW]: zakim, who is on the phone?
16:05:43 [Zakim]: On the phone I see csma, Harold, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), ChrisW, Deborah_Nichols (muted), adrian, JeffP, Allen_Ginsberg (muted), PaulaP (muted), josb (muted), GerdWagner,
16:05:47 [Zakim]: ... Axel_Polleres (muted), StellaMitchell (muted), Sandro (muted), Leora_Morgenstern (muted), AlexKozlenkov (muted), DavidHirtle, Dave_Reynolds, Mike_Dean
16:05:51 [JeffP]: zakim, adrian is agiurca
16:05:52 [Zakim]: +agiurca; got it
16:06:04 [SaidTabet]: SaidTabet has joined #RIF
16:06:09 [agiurca]: thanks
16:06:48 [agiurca]: ok
16:06:56 [ChrisW]: zakim, take up item 1
16:06:56 [Zakim]: agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:06:58 [pfps]: pfps has joined #rif
16:06:58 [Zakim]: +??P12
16:07:08 [SaidTabet]: zakim, ??P12 is me
16:07:08 [Zakim]: +SaidTabet; got it
16:07:13 [SaidTabet]: zakim, mute me
16:07:13 [Zakim]: SaidTabet should now be muted
16:07:50 [Zakim]: +Peter_PS
16:08:23 [ChrisW]: approved Oct 17 telecon minutes
16:09:10 [ChrisW]: zakim, next agenudm
16:09:11 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'next agenudm', ChrisW
16:09:16 [ChrisW]: zakim, next agendum
16:09:16 [Zakim]: agendum 2. "F2F" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:09:22 [Stella_Mitchell]: Stella_Mitchell has joined #rif
16:09:27 [Hassan]: q+
16:09:36 [ChrisWelty]: ChrisWelty has joined #rif
16:09:58 [csma]: ack hassan
16:10:39 [josb]: http://www.georgiacenter.uga.edu/hotel/directions.phtml#Shuttle
16:10:41 [AxelPolleres]: Can you post these alternatives to the list/wiki?
16:11:03 [JosD]: JosD has joined #rif
16:11:51 [Zakim]: +Jos_De_Roo
16:13:22 [ChrisWelty]: pfps: no remote support planned
16:14:02 [Zakim]: -josb
16:14:10 [ChrisWelty]: csma: no one has indicated interested in remote participation
16:14:35 [Zakim]: +josb
16:14:42 [csma]: q?
16:14:45 [Stella-Mitchell]: Stella-Mitchell has joined #rif
16:15:47 [ChrisWelty]: zakim, next agendum
16:15:47 [Zakim]: agendum 3. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:16:22 [ChrisWelty]: zakim, close item 3
16:16:22 [Zakim]: agendum 3, Liason, closed
16:16:23 [Zakim]: I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:16:24 [Zakim]: 4. Technical Design [from ChrisW]
16:16:27 [ChrisWelty]: zakim, next agendum
16:16:27 [Zakim]: agendum 4. "Technical Design" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:16:31 [Zakim]: +Gary_Hallmark
16:16:54 [pfps]: http://www.georgiacenter.uga.edu/conferences/about/directions.phtml has information on ground transport to and from Atlanta
16:16:58 [ChrisWelty]: action 120 complete
16:17:13 [ChrisWelty]: action 141 complete
16:17:24 [ChrisWelty]: action 142 continued
16:17:35 [Allen]: zakim, unmute me
16:17:35 [Zakim]: Allen_Ginsberg should no longer be muted
16:17:39 [PaulaP]: CONTINUED
16:17:42 [pfps]: http://www.aaaairportexpress.com/routes/athens.html has the AAA express schedule and phone numbers
16:18:04 [GaryHallmark]: GaryHallmark has joined #rif
16:18:12 [ChrisWelty]: action 161 complete
16:18:34 [ChrisWelty]: action 162 complete
16:19:00 [JeffP]: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/UC7_Worked_Example
16:21:21 [ChrisWelty]: action 155 complete
16:21:29 [DaveReynolds]: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/UC8_Worked_Example
16:22:47 [Allen]: zakim, mute me
16:22:47 [Zakim]: Allen_Ginsberg should now be muted
16:24:42 [GerdWagner]: csma: there are now several alternative proposals for the condition language
16:25:05 [ChrisWelty]: hassan's proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Oct/0083.html
16:25:46 [GerdWagner]: hassan: my proposal is compatible but slightly more abstract than the Boley et al proposal
16:26:05 [ChrisWelty]: q?
16:27:30 [GerdWagner]: hassan: separate "data model" and rules
16:28:03 [csma]: q?
16:29:26 [Harold]: q+
16:29:37 [csma]: ack harold
16:30:26 [GerdWagner]: harold: feature terms would be an important addition
16:30:42 [Harold]: Slotted syntax: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/charter#xml-syntax
16:32:34 [Harold]: "In order to allow interoperability with RDF and object-oriented systems, the syntax must support named arguments (also called "role" or "slot" names), allowing n-ary facts, rules, and queries to be provided through property/value interfaces."
16:33:16 [ChrisWelty]: action: harold to work with Hassan to reconcile two proposals
16:33:17 [rifbot]: Created ACTION-163 - Work with Hassan to reconcile two proposals [on Harold Boley - due 2006-11-07].
16:33:28 [csma]: q?
16:35:45 [GerdWagner]: csma: the purpose of my proposal is to trigger thinking about a RIF that is different than Harold et al's
16:36:58 [Zakim]: -Sandro
16:37:17 [GerdWagner]: csma: RIF should allow the interchange of PRs and LP rules where possible
16:37:30 [ChrisWelty]: zakim, who is talking?
16:37:41 [Zakim]: ChrisWelty, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: csma (27%), Peter_PS (18%)
16:37:57 [MoZ]: MoZ has joined #rif
16:38:24 [Harold]: Christian, are we talking about semantics or about 'pragmatics', then?
16:38:44 [ChrisWelty]: zakim, who is talking?
16:38:54 [Zakim]: ChrisWelty, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Peter_PS (27%)
16:39:42 [Harold]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pragmatics
16:40:04 [ChrisWelty]: zakim, who is talking?
16:40:14 [Zakim]: ChrisWelty, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 22 (28%), csma (61%), Peter_PS (43%)
16:40:16 [ChrisWelty]: zakim, mute Peter_PS
16:40:17 [Zakim]: Peter_PS should now be muted
16:40:50 [ChrisWelty]: zakim, who is on the phone?
16:40:50 [Zakim]: On the phone I see csma, Harold, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), ChrisW, Deborah_Nichols (muted), agiurca, JeffP, Allen_Ginsberg (muted), PaulaP (muted), GerdWagner, Axel_Polleres
16:40:53 [Zakim]: ... (muted), Stella-Mitchell (muted), Leora_Morgenstern (muted), AlexKozlenkov (muted), DavidHirtle, Dave_Reynolds, Mike_Dean, SaidTabet (muted), Peter_PS (muted), Jos_De_Roo
16:40:55 [Zakim]: ... (muted), josb, Gary_Hallmark
16:41:07 [GerdWagner]: csma: the same rule could be formalized/used as a LP rule with stable model emantics of as a PR with a different semantics
16:41:37 [ChrisWelty]: q?
16:41:43 [Harold]: Pragmatics is also a bit in the RIFRAF, but not quite enough. Interoperation can be seen as part of it.
16:41:57 [Zakim]: +Sandro
16:43:21 [DaveReynolds]: q+
16:43:33 [GerdWagner]: q+
16:43:58 [GerdWagner]: dave: how are going to capture meaning without formal semantics?
16:44:38 [ChrisWelty]: ack dave
16:44:48 [GerdWagner]: csma: the extreme would be to leave semantics outside of RIF
16:45:11 [pfps_]: pfps_ has joined #rif
16:45:39 [ChrisWelty]: zakim, ChrisW is me
16:45:39 [Zakim]: +ChrisWelty; got it
16:47:02 [josb]: q+
16:47:17 [GerdWagner]: csma: in many practical cases you do not care about the precise meaning of a rule
16:47:37 [ChrisWelty]: ack gerd
16:48:12 [ChrisWelty]: gerd: the current core proposal is for the condition language, but csma proposal is not
16:48:16 [Hassan]: +1 with Gerd
16:48:29 [Zakim]: -Peter_PS
16:48:36 [ChrisWelty]: ack jos
16:49:10 [GerdWagner]: josb: csma, if you don't specify the semantic of rules how can you interchange?
16:49:38 [sandro]: q+ to ask about test cases, and their differences
16:49:40 [Zakim]: +Peter_PS
16:50:01 [ChrisWelty]: zakim, mute Peter_PS
16:50:01 [Zakim]: Peter_PS should now be muted
16:50:50 [ChrisWelty]: q?
16:51:06 [AxelPolleres]: +1 to that model-theoretic semantics is the way to capture the agreed minimal smeantics.
16:51:11 [ChrisWelty]: zakim, Peter_PS is pfps
16:51:11 [Zakim]: +pfps; got it
16:52:11 [GerdWagner]: csma: even in phase 1 we should be able to interchange not only Horn rules but also PRs
16:52:30 [sandro]: ack sandro
16:52:30 [Zakim]: sandro, you wanted to ask about test cases, and their differences
16:53:44 [Hassan]: q+
16:53:44 [GerdWagner]: sandro: would csma's proposla give us different test cases than Harold et al's?
16:54:06 [DaveReynolds]: q+ to respond to Sandro's point on test cases
16:54:07 [AxelPolleres]: q+
16:55:04 [sandro]: sandro: so you're not TRYING to achieve any different test-case results?
16:55:29 [ChrisWelty]: q?
16:55:50 [sandro]: csma: Right -- It's not clear to me from the current proposal how it's possible to interchange the kind of rules we need
16:55:55 [ChrisWelty]: ack hassan
16:55:58 [GerdWagner]: csma: LP semantics may not capture interchange
16:57:38 [AxelPolleres]: I think this is what we do with the current use cases mapping to th RCL?!????!?!????
16:57:45 [DaveReynolds]: ack me
16:57:45 [Zakim]: DaveReynolds, you wanted to respond to Sandro's point on test cases
16:57:49 [Hassan]: q-
16:57:49 [GerdWagner]: hassan: everyone may provide test cases
16:59:24 [ChrisWelty]: ack hassan
16:59:40 [sandro]: q?
16:59:43 [sandro]: ack AxelPolleres
17:00:22 [GerdWagner]: axel: is your proposal an alternative or an extension?
17:01:08 [GerdWagner]: csma: my point is I have some kind of test cases in mind and the are not covered
17:01:57 [csma]: q?
17:03:34 [csma]: q+
17:03:58 [GerdWagner]: dave: I didn't view my proposal as an alternative
17:04:40 [GerdWagner]: dave: rdf would help with extensibility
17:04:46 [sandro]: silence?
17:04:56 [sandro]: q?
17:05:16 [pfps]: i'm not convinced about the utility of RDF with respect to this sort of extensibility
17:05:40 [Hassan]: q+
17:05:51 [ChrisWelty]: ack csma
17:06:17 [Harold]: Peter, didn't you also work on a unified data model, bringing together RDF's OO modeling with XML's positional one?
17:06:39 [GerdWagner]: csma: your proposal seems to contain some elements where it goes beyond the Boley et al proposal
17:07:12 [ChrisWelty]: ack hassan
17:07:25 [pfps]: Yes, I did some work on allowing XML documents to be considered as RDF data
17:07:52 [GerdWagner]: hassan: rdf allows to represent any data models
17:08:09 [ChrisWelty]: q?
17:09:39 [Harold]: I was thinking of allowing both XML-like, positional Herbrand data terms and RDF-like, feature/slot data terms.
17:10:21 [Hassan]: q-
17:10:56 [GerdWagner]: csma: what about trial implementations?
17:11:02 [csma]: q?
17:11:05 [ChrisWelty]: zakim, next agendum
17:11:05 [Zakim]: agendum 5. "RIF-RAF" taken up [from ChrisW]
17:12:02 [ChrisWelty]: action: gary to fix typo in minutes
17:12:03 [rifbot]: Created ACTION-164 - Fix typo in minutes [on Gary Hallmark - due 2006-11-07].
17:12:25 [LeoraMorgenstern]: zakim, unmute me
17:12:25 [Zakim]: Leora_Morgenstern should no longer be muted
17:13:13 [LeoraMorgenstern]: zakim, mute me
17:13:13 [Zakim]: Leora_Morgenstern should now be muted
17:13:44 [ChrisWelty]: zakim, next agendum
17:13:44 [Zakim]: agendum 6. "UCR" taken up [from ChrisW]
17:13:48 [Zakim]: -SaidTabet
17:14:55 [GerdWagner]: csma: action x continued
17:14:56 [Allen]: done
17:15:23 [ChrisWelty]: action 143 complete
17:15:59 [GerdWagner]: action 144 cont
17:16:30 [GerdWagner]: action 147 completed
17:17:08 [Hassan]: +1 for adjourning
17:17:26 [sandro]: or we could talk about Saturday Morning's plans.....
17:17:35 [sandro]: or parties Friday night? L-)
17:17:42 [Hassan]: Or both?
17:17:46 [Zakim]: -AlexKozlenkov
17:18:10 [Zakim]: -Gary_Hallmark
17:18:11 [PaulaP]: +1
17:18:13 [JeffP]: +1
17:18:14 [Zakim]: -josb
17:18:19 [Zakim]: -Stella-Mitchell
17:18:20 [Allen]: bye
17:18:22 [PaulaP]: bye
17:18:23 [JeffP]: see you
17:18:23 [Zakim]: -pfps
17:18:24 [DavidHirtle]: DavidHirtle has left #rif
17:18:24 [Zakim]: -Deborah_Nichols
17:18:24 [Zakim]: -Hassan_Ait-Kaci
17:18:25 [DaveReynolds]: bye
17:18:25 [PaulaP]: PaulaP has left #rif
17:18:26 [Zakim]: -Axel_Polleres
17:18:27 [Zakim]: -Allen_Ginsberg
17:18:28 [Zakim]: -Harold
17:18:29 [Zakim]: -Jos_De_Roo
17:18:30 [Zakim]: -Dave_Reynolds
17:18:30 [Zakim]: -DavidHirtle
17:18:32 [Zakim]: -PaulaP
17:18:34 [Zakim]: -Leora_Morgenstern
17:18:36 [Zakim]: -Mike_Dean
17:18:38 [Zakim]: -JeffP
17:18:52 [ChrisWelty]: zakim, bye
17:18:52 [Zakim]: leaving. As of this point the attendees were csma, Harold, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, Deborah_Nichols, GerdWagner, Allen_Ginsberg, JeffP, PaulaP, Axel_Polleres, josb, Sandro,
17:18:53 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #rif
17:18:57 [Zakim]: ... Leora_Morgenstern, AlexKozlenkov, Dave_Reynolds, DavidHirtle, Mike_Dean, agiurca, SaidTabet, Jos_De_Roo, Gary_Hallmark, Stella-Mitchell, ChrisWelty, pfps
17:19:06 [ChrisWelty]: rrsagent, make minutes
17:19:06 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/10/31-rif-minutes.html ChrisWelty
18:04:37 [csma]: csma has left #rif