15:19:25 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rif
15:19:25 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/10/31-rif-irc
15:20:20 <ChrisW> zakim, this will be rif
15:20:20 <Zakim> ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 40 minutes
15:21:36 <ChrisW> Meeting: RIF Telecon 31 Oct 06
15:21:36 <ChrisW> Chair: Christian de Sainte-Marie
15:21:36 <ChrisW> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Oct/0112.html
15:21:36 <ChrisW> Scribe: Gerd Wagner
15:22:01 <ChrisW> Zakim, read agenda from http://www.w3.org/2006/10/17-rif-agenda.rdf
15:22:01 <Zakim> working on it, ChrisW
15:22:02 <Zakim> done reading agenda, ChrisW
15:23:21 <ChrisW> agenda+ Admin
15:23:44 <ChrisW> agenda+ F2F
15:23:52 <ChrisW> agenda+ Liason
15:24:00 <ChrisW> agenda+ Technical Design
15:24:10 <ChrisW> agenda+ RIF-RAF
15:24:19 <ChrisW> agenda+ UCR
15:24:22 <ChrisW> agenda+ AOB
15:26:12 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
15:26:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/10/31-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
15:27:50 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make logs public
15:29:54 <Harold> Harold has joined #rif
15:46:14 <agiurca> agiurca has joined #rif
15:54:17 <patranja> patranja has joined #rif
15:55:16 <DavidHirtle> DavidHirtle has joined #rif
15:55:44 <csma> csma has joined #rif
15:56:28 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:56:35 <Zakim> +??P4
15:56:45 <csma> zakim, ??P4 is me
15:56:45 <Zakim> +csma; got it
15:57:01 <Hassan> Hassan has joined #rif
15:57:29 <Zakim> +[NRCC]
15:58:01 <Harold> zakim, [NRCC] is me
15:58:01 <Zakim> +Harold; got it
15:58:30 <Zakim> +Hassan_Ait-Kaci
15:58:45 <ChrisW> Regrets: IgorMozetic MichaelKifer PaulVincent FrançoisBry MarkusKrötzsch MichaelSintek ElisaKendall
15:59:08 <Deborah_Nichols> Deborah_Nichols has joined #rif
15:59:25 <JeffP> JeffP has joined #rif
15:59:29 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:59:37 <ChrisW> zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:59:37 <Zakim> +ChrisW; got it
15:59:38 <Zakim> +Deborah_Nichols
16:00:00 <Zakim> +Gerd_Wagner
16:00:02 <Allen> Allen has joined #rif
16:00:26 <Zakim> +G
16:00:26 <GerdWagner> GerdWagner has joined #rif
16:00:32 <josb> josb has joined #rif
16:00:53 <csma> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:00:53 <Zakim> On the phone I see csma, Harold, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), ChrisW, Deborah_Nichols (muted), Gerd_Wagner, G
16:00:54 <ChrisW> zakim, Gerd_Wagner is GerdWagner
16:00:55 <Zakim> +GerdWagner; got it
16:00:58 <Zakim> + +22427aaaa
16:00:59 <Zakim> +Allen_Ginsberg
16:01:00 <Zakim> -GerdWagner
16:01:07 <ChrisW> scribenick: GerdWagner
16:01:12 <AlexKozlenkov> AlexKozlenkov has joined #rif
16:01:13 <Zakim> +[LMU]
16:01:16 <StellaMitchell> StellaMitchell has joined #rif
16:01:23 <Allen> zakim, mute me
16:01:23 <Zakim> Allen_Ginsberg should now be muted
16:01:26 <PaulaP> zakim, [LMU] is temporarily me
16:01:26 <Zakim> +PaulaP; got it
16:01:37 <LeoraMorgenstern> LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
16:01:44 <Zakim> +??P15
16:01:52 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #rif
16:02:00 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:02:00 <Zakim> On the phone I see csma, Harold, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), ChrisW, Deborah_Nichols (muted), G, JeffP, Allen_Ginsberg (muted), PaulaP (muted), ??P15
16:02:09 <Zakim> +GerdWagner
16:02:13 <Zakim> +Axel_Polleres
16:02:15 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has joined #rif
16:02:20 <Zakim> +[IBM]
16:02:23 <StellaMitchell> zakim, [ibm] is temporarily me
16:02:23 <Zakim> +StellaMitchell; got it
16:02:32 <Zakim> +Sandro
16:02:33 <agiurca> Zakim, mute me
16:02:34 <Zakim> sorry, agiurca, I do not see a party named 'agiurca'
16:02:38 <Zakim> +Leora_Morgenstern
16:02:44 <Zakim> +??P32
16:02:47 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, mute me
16:02:49 <AlexKozlenkov> zakim, ??P32 is me
16:02:54 <Zakim> Leora_Morgenstern should now be muted
16:02:58 <agiurca> Zakim, ??P15 is me
16:03:01 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:03:07 <Zakim> +AlexKozlenkov; got it
16:03:08 <csma> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:03:11 <Zakim> +??P34
16:03:15 <Zakim> I already had ??P15 as josb, agiurca
16:03:15 <AlexKozlenkov> zakim, please mute me
16:03:19 <Zakim> +Dave_Reynolds (was ??P34)
16:03:27 <Zakim> On the phone I see csma, Harold, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), ChrisW, Deborah_Nichols (muted), G, JeffP, Allen_Ginsberg (muted), PaulaP (muted), josb (muted), GerdWagner, Axel_Polleres
16:03:32 <Zakim> ... (muted), StellaMitchell, Sandro (muted), Leora_Morgenstern (muted), AlexKozlenkov, DavidHirtle, Dave_Reynolds
16:03:40 <Zakim> AlexKozlenkov should now be muted
16:03:41 <AlexKozlenkov> zakim, mute me
16:03:48 <Zakim> AlexKozlenkov was already muted, AlexKozlenkov
16:04:37 <csma> ack G
16:04:45 <JeffP> zakim, G is adrian
16:04:45 <Zakim> +adrian; got it
16:04:52 <agiurca> Zakim G is agiurca
16:05:21 <ChrisW> ChrisW has joined #rif
16:05:24 <Zakim> +Mike_Dean
16:05:27 <agiurca> Zakim, mute me
16:05:27 <Zakim> sorry, agiurca, I do not see a party named 'agiurca'
16:05:43 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:05:43 <Zakim> On the phone I see csma, Harold, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), ChrisW, Deborah_Nichols (muted), adrian, JeffP, Allen_Ginsberg (muted), PaulaP (muted), josb (muted), GerdWagner,
16:05:47 <Zakim> ... Axel_Polleres (muted), StellaMitchell (muted), Sandro (muted), Leora_Morgenstern (muted), AlexKozlenkov (muted), DavidHirtle, Dave_Reynolds, Mike_Dean
16:05:51 <JeffP> zakim, adrian is agiurca
16:05:52 <Zakim> +agiurca; got it
16:06:04 <SaidTabet> SaidTabet has joined #RIF
16:06:09 <agiurca> thanks
16:06:48 <agiurca> ok
16:06:56 <ChrisW> zakim, take up item 1
16:06:56 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:06:58 <pfps> pfps has joined #rif
16:06:58 <Zakim> +??P12
16:07:08 <SaidTabet> zakim, ??P12 is me
16:07:08 <Zakim> +SaidTabet; got it
16:07:13 <SaidTabet> zakim, mute me
16:07:13 <Zakim> SaidTabet should now be muted
16:07:50 <Zakim> +Peter_PS
16:08:23 <ChrisW> approved Oct 17 telecon minutes
16:09:10 <ChrisW> zakim, next agenudm
16:09:11 <Zakim> I don't understand 'next agenudm', ChrisW
16:09:16 <ChrisW> zakim, next agendum
16:09:16 <Zakim> agendum 2. "F2F" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:09:22 <Stella_Mitchell> Stella_Mitchell has joined #rif
16:09:27 <Hassan> q+
16:09:36 <ChrisWelty> ChrisWelty has joined #rif
16:09:58 <csma> ack hassan
16:10:39 <josb> http://www.georgiacenter.uga.edu/hotel/directions.phtml#Shuttle
16:10:41 <AxelPolleres> Can you post these alternatives to the list/wiki?
16:11:03 <JosD> JosD has joined #rif
16:11:51 <Zakim> +Jos_De_Roo
16:13:22 <ChrisWelty> pfps: no remote support planned
16:14:02 <Zakim> -josb
16:14:10 <ChrisWelty> csma: no one has indicated interested in remote participation
16:14:35 <Zakim> +josb
16:14:42 <csma> q?
16:14:45 <Stella-Mitchell> Stella-Mitchell has joined #rif
16:15:47 <ChrisWelty> zakim, next agendum
16:15:47 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:16:22 <ChrisWelty> zakim, close item 3
16:16:22 <Zakim> agendum 3, Liason, closed
16:16:23 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:16:24 <Zakim> 4. Technical Design [from ChrisW]
16:16:27 <ChrisWelty> zakim, next agendum
16:16:27 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Technical Design" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:16:31 <Zakim> +Gary_Hallmark
16:16:54 <pfps> http://www.georgiacenter.uga.edu/conferences/about/directions.phtml has information on ground transport to and from Atlanta
16:16:58 <ChrisWelty> action 120 complete
16:17:13 <ChrisWelty> action 141 complete
16:17:24 <ChrisWelty> action 142 continued
16:17:35 <Allen> zakim, unmute me
16:17:35 <Zakim> Allen_Ginsberg should no longer be muted
16:17:39 <PaulaP> CONTINUED
16:17:42 <pfps> http://www.aaaairportexpress.com/routes/athens.html has the AAA express schedule and phone numbers
16:18:04 <GaryHallmark> GaryHallmark has joined #rif
16:18:12 <ChrisWelty> action 161 complete
16:18:34 <ChrisWelty> action 162 complete
16:19:00 <JeffP> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/UC7_Worked_Example
16:21:21 <ChrisWelty> action 155 complete
16:21:29 <DaveReynolds> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/UC8_Worked_Example
16:22:47 <Allen> zakim, mute me
16:22:47 <Zakim> Allen_Ginsberg should now be muted
16:24:42 <GerdWagner> csma: there are now several alternative proposals for the condition language
16:25:05 <ChrisWelty> hassan's proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Oct/0083.html
16:25:46 <GerdWagner> hassan: my proposal is compatible but slightly more abstract than the Boley et al proposal
16:26:05 <ChrisWelty> q?
16:27:30 <GerdWagner> hassan: separate "data model" and rules
16:28:03 <csma> q?
16:29:26 <Harold> q+
16:29:37 <csma> ack harold
16:30:26 <GerdWagner> harold: feature terms would be an important addition
16:30:42 <Harold> Slotted syntax: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/charter#xml-syntax
16:32:34 <Harold> "In order to allow interoperability with RDF and object-oriented systems, the syntax must support named arguments (also called "role" or "slot" names), allowing n-ary facts, rules, and queries to be provided through property/value interfaces."
16:33:16 <ChrisWelty> action: harold to work with Hassan to reconcile two proposals
16:33:17 <rifbot> Created ACTION-163 - Work with Hassan to reconcile two proposals [on Harold Boley - due 2006-11-07].
16:33:28 <csma> q?
16:35:45 <GerdWagner> csma: the purpose of my proposal is to trigger thinking about a RIF that is different than Harold et al's
16:36:58 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:37:17 <GerdWagner> csma: RIF should allow the interchange of PRs and LP rules where possible
16:37:30 <ChrisWelty> zakim, who is talking?
16:37:41 <Zakim> ChrisWelty, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: csma (27%), Peter_PS (18%)
16:37:57 <MoZ> MoZ has joined #rif
16:38:24 <Harold> Christian, are we talking about semantics or about 'pragmatics', then?
16:38:44 <ChrisWelty> zakim, who is talking?
16:38:54 <Zakim> ChrisWelty, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Peter_PS (27%)
16:39:42 <Harold> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pragmatics
16:40:04 <ChrisWelty> zakim, who is talking?
16:40:14 <Zakim> ChrisWelty, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 22 (28%), csma (61%), Peter_PS (43%)
16:40:16 <ChrisWelty> zakim, mute Peter_PS
16:40:17 <Zakim> Peter_PS should now be muted
16:40:50 <ChrisWelty> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:40:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see csma, Harold, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), ChrisW, Deborah_Nichols (muted), agiurca, JeffP, Allen_Ginsberg (muted), PaulaP (muted), GerdWagner, Axel_Polleres
16:40:53 <Zakim> ... (muted), Stella-Mitchell (muted), Leora_Morgenstern (muted), AlexKozlenkov (muted), DavidHirtle, Dave_Reynolds, Mike_Dean, SaidTabet (muted), Peter_PS (muted), Jos_De_Roo
16:40:55 <Zakim> ... (muted), josb, Gary_Hallmark
16:41:07 <GerdWagner> csma: the same rule could be formalized/used as a LP rule with stable model emantics of as a PR with a different semantics
16:41:37 <ChrisWelty> q?
16:41:43 <Harold> Pragmatics is also a bit in the RIFRAF, but not quite enough. Interoperation can be seen as part of it.
16:41:57 <Zakim> +Sandro
16:43:21 <DaveReynolds> q+
16:43:33 <GerdWagner> q+
16:43:58 <GerdWagner> dave: how are going to capture meaning without formal semantics?
16:44:38 <ChrisWelty> ack dave
16:44:48 <GerdWagner> csma: the extreme would be to leave semantics outside of RIF
16:45:11 <pfps_> pfps_ has joined #rif
16:45:39 <ChrisWelty> zakim, ChrisW is me
16:45:39 <Zakim> +ChrisWelty; got it
16:47:02 <josb> q+
16:47:17 <GerdWagner> csma: in many practical cases you do not care about the precise meaning of a rule
16:47:37 <ChrisWelty> ack gerd
16:48:12 <ChrisWelty> gerd: the current core proposal is for the condition language, but csma proposal is not
16:48:16 <Hassan> +1 with Gerd
16:48:29 <Zakim> -Peter_PS
16:48:36 <ChrisWelty> ack jos
16:49:10 <GerdWagner> josb: csma, if you don't specify the semantic of rules how can you interchange?
16:49:38 <sandro> q+ to ask about test cases, and their differences
16:49:40 <Zakim> +Peter_PS
16:50:01 <ChrisWelty> zakim, mute Peter_PS
16:50:01 <Zakim> Peter_PS should now be muted
16:50:50 <ChrisWelty> q?
16:51:06 <AxelPolleres> +1 to that model-theoretic semantics is the way to capture the agreed minimal smeantics.
16:51:11 <ChrisWelty> zakim, Peter_PS is pfps
16:51:11 <Zakim> +pfps; got it
16:52:11 <GerdWagner> csma: even in phase 1 we should be able to interchange not only Horn rules but also PRs
16:52:30 <sandro> ack sandro
16:52:30 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to ask about test cases, and their differences
16:53:44 <Hassan> q+
16:53:44 <GerdWagner> sandro: would csma's proposla give us different test cases than Harold et al's?
16:54:06 <DaveReynolds> q+ to respond to Sandro's point on test cases
16:54:07 <AxelPolleres> q+
16:55:04 <sandro> sandro: so you're not TRYING to achieve any different test-case results?
16:55:29 <ChrisWelty> q?
16:55:50 <sandro> csma: Right -- It's not clear to me from the current proposal how it's possible to interchange the kind of rules we need
16:55:55 <ChrisWelty> ack hassan
16:55:58 <GerdWagner> csma: LP semantics may not capture interchange
16:57:38 <AxelPolleres> I think this is what we do with the current use cases mapping to th RCL?!????!?!????
16:57:45 <DaveReynolds> ack me
16:57:45 <Zakim> DaveReynolds, you wanted to respond to Sandro's point on test cases
16:57:49 <Hassan> q-
16:57:49 <GerdWagner> hassan: everyone may provide test cases
16:59:24 <ChrisWelty> ack hassan
16:59:40 <sandro> q?
16:59:43 <sandro> ack AxelPolleres 
17:00:22 <GerdWagner> axel: is your proposal an alternative or an extension?
17:01:08 <GerdWagner> csma: my point is I have some kind of test cases in mind and the are not covered
17:01:57 <csma> q?
17:03:34 <csma> q+
17:03:58 <GerdWagner> dave: I didn't view my proposal as an alternative
17:04:40 <GerdWagner> dave: rdf would help with extensibility
17:04:46 <sandro> silence?
17:04:56 <sandro> q?
17:05:16 <pfps> i'm not convinced about the utility of RDF with respect to this sort of extensibility
17:05:40 <Hassan> q+
17:05:51 <ChrisWelty> ack csma
17:06:17 <Harold> Peter, didn't you also work on a unified data model, bringing together RDF's OO modeling with XML's positional one?
17:06:39 <GerdWagner> csma: your proposal seems to contain some elements where it goes beyond the Boley et al proposal 
17:07:12 <ChrisWelty> ack hassan
17:07:25 <pfps> Yes, I did some work on allowing XML documents to be considered as RDF data
17:07:52 <GerdWagner> hassan: rdf allows to represent any data models 
17:08:09 <ChrisWelty> q?
17:09:39 <Harold> I was thinking of allowing both XML-like, positional Herbrand data terms and RDF-like, feature/slot data terms.
17:10:21 <Hassan> q-
17:10:56 <GerdWagner> csma: what about trial implementations?
17:11:02 <csma> q?
17:11:05 <ChrisWelty> zakim, next agendum
17:11:05 <Zakim> agendum 5. "RIF-RAF" taken up [from ChrisW]
17:12:02 <ChrisWelty> action: gary to fix typo in minutes
17:12:03 <rifbot> Created ACTION-164 - Fix typo in minutes [on Gary Hallmark - due 2006-11-07].
17:12:25 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, unmute me
17:12:25 <Zakim> Leora_Morgenstern should no longer be muted
17:13:13 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, mute me
17:13:13 <Zakim> Leora_Morgenstern should now be muted
17:13:44 <ChrisWelty> zakim, next agendum
17:13:44 <Zakim> agendum 6. "UCR" taken up [from ChrisW]
17:13:48 <Zakim> -SaidTabet
17:14:55 <GerdWagner> csma: action x continued
17:14:56 <Allen> done
17:15:23 <ChrisWelty> action 143 complete
17:15:59 <GerdWagner> action 144 cont
17:16:30 <GerdWagner> action 147 completed
17:17:08 <Hassan> +1 for adjourning
17:17:26 <sandro> or we could talk about Saturday Morning's plans.....
17:17:35 <sandro> or parties Friday night?  L-)
17:17:42 <Hassan> Or both?
17:17:46 <Zakim> -AlexKozlenkov
17:18:10 <Zakim> -Gary_Hallmark
17:18:11 <PaulaP> +1
17:18:13 <JeffP> +1
17:18:14 <Zakim> -josb
17:18:19 <Zakim> -Stella-Mitchell
17:18:20 <Allen> bye
17:18:22 <PaulaP> bye
17:18:23 <JeffP> see you
17:18:23 <Zakim> -pfps
17:18:24 <DavidHirtle> DavidHirtle has left #rif
17:18:24 <Zakim> -Deborah_Nichols
17:18:24 <Zakim> -Hassan_Ait-Kaci
17:18:25 <DaveReynolds> bye
17:18:25 <PaulaP> PaulaP has left #rif
17:18:26 <Zakim> -Axel_Polleres
17:18:27 <Zakim> -Allen_Ginsberg
17:18:28 <Zakim> -Harold
17:18:29 <Zakim> -Jos_De_Roo
17:18:30 <Zakim> -Dave_Reynolds
17:18:30 <Zakim> -DavidHirtle
17:18:32 <Zakim> -PaulaP
17:18:34 <Zakim> -Leora_Morgenstern
17:18:36 <Zakim> -Mike_Dean
17:18:38 <Zakim> -JeffP
17:18:52 <ChrisWelty> zakim, bye
17:18:52 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were csma, Harold, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, Deborah_Nichols, GerdWagner, Allen_Ginsberg, JeffP, PaulaP, Axel_Polleres, josb, Sandro,
17:18:53 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rif
17:18:57 <Zakim> ... Leora_Morgenstern, AlexKozlenkov, Dave_Reynolds, DavidHirtle, Mike_Dean, agiurca, SaidTabet, Jos_De_Roo, Gary_Hallmark, Stella-Mitchell, ChrisWelty, pfps
17:19:06 <ChrisWelty> rrsagent, make minutes
17:19:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/10/31-rif-minutes.html ChrisWelty
18:04:37 <csma> csma has left #rif