IRC log of dawg on 2006-08-22
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 14:11:20 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #dawg
- 14:11:20 [RRSAgent]
- logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/08/22-dawg-irc
- 14:11:42 [kendallclark]
- zakim, this will be DAWG
- 14:11:42 [Zakim]
- ok, kendallclark; I see SW_DAWG()10:30AM scheduled to start in 19 minutes
- 14:13:27 [SimonR]
- Unless we have special knowledge (D-entailment) I don't see that named resources and datatyped literals act differently. Identical names indicate identical references; different names don't prove nonidentity of referents.
- 14:14:04 [bijan]
- Well, identical lexical forms don't indicate indentical references
- 14:14:17 [bijan]
- "001"^^xsd:string, "01"^^xsd:integer
- 14:14:24 [bijan]
- And yes, you need special knowledge
- 14:14:29 [bijan]
- But there is that special knowledge available
- 14:15:01 [bijan]
- Hence my worry that such simplifications complicate the overall picture
- 14:15:24 [SimonR]
- I'm considering the `name' in the case of a datatyped literal to comprise both the lexical form and type IRI.
- 14:16:03 [bijan]
- well,t hat's a bit of an arbitrary choice
- 14:16:14 [bijan]
- Why not the triple of lexical form, type URI and value?
- 14:16:53 [SimonR]
- Well, I see it as a much simpler picture. You have two types of atomic entitiy, and they're differentied by whether or not you can determine inequality of reference by inequality of name.
- 14:16:59 [bijan]
- Plus, I don't see the simplification. We are going to want those dataype theories
- 14:17:22 [bijan]
- So, there's a saying about simplicity
- 14:17:27 [bijan]
- Simple *with respect to what*
- 14:17:54 [bijan]
- So, we can reduce all propositional first order connective to ~ and v or even just the sheffer stroke
- 14:17:59 [bijan]
- And that is way simpler
- 14:18:02 [bijan]
- One truth table!
- 14:18:10 [bijan]
- But the formula are brutal
- 14:18:18 [bijan]
- So you trade one kind of simplicity for another
- 14:18:37 [bijan]
- So, let me just grant that your variant is simpler in some respect
- 14:18:40 [bijan]
- is taht a useful respect?
- 14:18:44 [bijan]
- What does it help us do?
- 14:18:52 [bijan]
- What does it, at least, clarify
- 14:20:02 [SimonR]
- This is how it would be useful -- it's entirely clear to everyone that unicode strings (in Normal Form C, just for pedantry's sake) are equal or different. It's never clear whether any of the four different RDF naming schemes are equal or not. Not *one* of them.
- 14:20:36 [bijan]
- Well, ok, but thus far it gets things wrong, afaict
- 14:20:44 [bijan]
- do bndoes have multiple nodeIDs?
- 14:20:46 [bijan]
- Just one?
- 14:20:48 [SimonR]
- How so?
- 14:20:58 [bijan]
- what affect does it have if two different bndoes have the same nodeID?
- 14:21:05 [bijan]
- effect
- 14:21:23 [SimonR]
- Yes, the same entity might be labeled with different bnode IDs in various serializations.
- 14:21:33 [bijan]
- But you didn't say, "various serializations"
- 14:21:36 [bijan]
- you made it a property of the node
- 14:21:54 [bijan]
- So is relative to a serialization/ Is that encoded in the graph too?
- 14:21:58 [SimonR]
- Right. That property is what you represent the scope with.
- 14:22:06 [bijan]
- How?
- 14:22:06 [kendallclark]
- zakim, agenda+ Convene, comments on agenda, fix scribe, roll call, approve minutes
- 14:22:06 [Zakim]
- agendum 1 added
- 14:22:09 [bijan]
- It's very unclear
- 14:22:31 [kendallclark]
- zakim agenda+ track action items
- 14:22:38 [kendallclark]
- zakim, agenda+ track action items
- 14:22:38 [Zakim]
- agendum 2 added
- 14:22:38 [bijan]
- """Because there are only two things in the universe now, existential variables whose equality behavior is consistent (known equal, or not known equal) and the set of unicode strings (known equal, or known different)."""
- 14:22:42 [SimonR]
- If my database invents a new property for each transaction, that quite accurates indicates when it's okay to share bnode IDs and when it isn't.
- 14:22:48 [kendallclark]
- zakim, agenda+ approve new value tests
- 14:22:48 [Zakim]
- agendum 3 added
- 14:22:51 [bijan]
- This doesn't handle that differenent URIs with the same denotation
- 14:22:54 [kendallclark]
- zakim, LeeF's review of rq24
- 14:22:54 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'LeeF's review of rq24', kendallclark
- 14:22:55 [SimonR]
- accurate+ly
- 14:22:59 [kendallclark]
- zakim, agenda+ LeeF's review of rq24
- 14:22:59 [Zakim]
- agendum 4 added
- 14:23:03 [bijan]
- But do these get serialized?
- 14:23:13 [bijan]
- I mean,a re they normal propreties or not?
- 14:23:21 [bijan]
- If so, then you have a bit of regress problem
- 14:23:30 [bijan]
- And I dont' see this is easier than normal lexical approaches
- 14:23:38 [kendallclark]
- zakim, agenda+ datatype and lang tests
- 14:23:38 [Zakim]
- agendum 5 added
- 14:23:51 [bijan]
- I mean, my prolbem iwth pat's last email is that it means that RDF *is* quite non-standard
- 14:24:05 [bijan]
- I don't find adding even *more* nonstandardness clarifying
- 14:24:08 [bijan]
- I like reading textbooks :)
- 14:24:25 [SimonR]
- Yes, regress is a problem. I think there has to be at least one distinguised property to break that regress. It should probably be the property that associates the IRI of the named resource with the string of that IRI.
- 14:25:15 [bijan]
- I don't feel the simplicity joy here
- 14:25:22 [bijan]
- I dread the proofs
- 14:25:51 [bijan]
- Well, you can produce the pudding
- 14:25:55 [bijan]
- That contains the proof
- 14:25:57 [SimonR]
- It'd be easier written out.
- 14:26:02 [bijan]
- Rewrite some part of the rdf semantics along these lines
- 14:26:19 [bijan]
- Simple interpretations, for example
- 14:26:33 [bijan]
- heck just do ground graphs
- 14:26:42 [LeeF]
- LeeF has joined #dawg
- 14:26:44 [bijan]
- To start
- 14:26:50 [AndyS]
- Kendall, the URL spliting issue.
- 14:27:16 [kendallclark]
- andy?
- 14:27:19 [SimonR]
- It'd end up as a layer below simple interpretation. Then you'd layer simple interpretation with all RDFs different naming schemes, and then RDF interpretation on top of that.
- 14:27:31 [AndyS]
- If the emails I receive are anything to go by, it might be because the email sent has long lines + "format=flowed"
- 14:27:57 [AndyS]
- The agenda has some long text lines split in strange places. Might be related.
- 14:28:03 [bijan]
- simonr, so, if its' going to simplify, it should simplify those layers
- 14:28:05 [bijan]
- Hack at it!
- 14:28:17 [kendallclark]
- ah, yeah, it's so weird how they split differently this time...
- 14:28:17 [SimonR]
- Shall do. :)
- 14:28:26 [kendallclark]
- and i don't think i have per-header control over Mail.app :(
- 14:29:04 [Zakim]
- SW_DAWG()10:30AM has now started
- 14:29:04 [AndyS]
- Something has changed - they didn't used to get split. Upgrade recently?
- 14:29:11 [Zakim]
- +Elias_Torres
- 14:29:14 [libby]
- libby has joined #dawg
- 14:29:19 [kendallclark]
- no, actually...
- 14:29:34 [Zakim]
- +[IBMCambridge]
- 14:29:36 [LeeF]
- zakim, IBMCambridge is me
- 14:29:36 [Zakim]
- +LeeF; got it
- 14:29:55 [Zakim]
- +??P26
- 14:29:58 [AndyS]
- zakim, ??P26 is me
- 14:29:58 [Zakim]
- +AndyS; got it
- 14:30:00 [bijan]
- Hey, can we put a little time on heartbeat issues/doc status? I take it we're ok becasue we've pubbed *something* yes?
- 14:31:00 [patH]
- patH has joined #dawg
- 14:31:51 [Zakim]
- +PatH
- 14:32:06 [Zakim]
- +??P30
- 14:32:16 [Zakim]
- +[IPcaller]
- 14:32:22 [SimonR]
- Zakim, P30 is SimonR
- 14:32:22 [Zakim]
- sorry, SimonR, I do not recognize a party named 'P30'
- 14:32:39 [SimonR]
- Zakim, +??P30 is SimonR
- 14:32:39 [Zakim]
- sorry, SimonR, I do not recognize a party named '+??P30'
- 14:32:55 [bijan]
- zakim, mute me
- 14:32:55 [Zakim]
- sorry, bijan, I do not see a party named 'bijan'
- 14:33:24 [bijan]
- zakim, [IPcaller] is me
- 14:33:24 [Zakim]
- +bijan; got it
- 14:33:30 [bijan]
- zakim, mute me
- 14:33:30 [Zakim]
- bijan should now be muted
- 14:33:54 [SimonR]
- Zakim, ??P30 is me
- 14:33:54 [Zakim]
- +SimonR; got it
- 14:34:01 [Zakim]
- +[IPcaller]
- 14:34:02 [Zakim]
- +Kendall_Clark
- 14:34:10 [libby]
- zakim, mute me
- 14:34:10 [Zakim]
- sorry, libby, I do not see a party named 'libby'
- 14:34:12 [Zakim]
- +??P32
- 14:34:26 [LeeF]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 14:34:26 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Elias_Torres, LeeF, AndyS, PatH, SimonR, bijan (muted), [IPcaller], Kendall_Clark, ??P32
- 14:34:27 [libby]
- zakim, [IPcaller] is me
- 14:34:29 [Zakim]
- +libby; got it
- 14:34:36 [libby]
- zakim, mute me
- 14:34:36 [Zakim]
- libby should now be muted
- 14:34:43 [LeeF]
- PatH
- 14:34:49 [Zakim]
- -PatH
- 14:34:59 [patH]
- it was me, but Im having cell phone trouyble.
- 14:35:34 [Zakim]
- +PatH
- 14:35:41 [patH]
- thanx.
- 14:35:45 [kendallclark]
- zakim, who's on the phone
- 14:35:45 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'who's on the phone', kendallclark
- 14:35:47 [kendallclark]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 14:35:47 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Elias_Torres, LeeF, AndyS, SimonR, bijan (muted), libby (muted), Kendall_Clark, ericP, PatH
- 14:36:01 [kendallclark]
- Regrets from FredZ
- 14:36:09 [LeeF]
- Regrets: FredZ, SteveH
- 14:36:31 [LeeF]
- Regrets: FredZ, SteveH, JeenB
- 14:36:33 [AndyS]
- Regrets
- 14:36:37 [kendallclark]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JulSep/0117.html
- 14:36:43 [AndyS]
- for next week from me
- 14:37:28 [kendallclark]
- PROPOSED to approve those minutes, 2nd, so resolved
- 14:37:37 [LeeF]
- RESOLVED
- 14:38:05 [bijan]
- zakim, unmute me
- 14:38:05 [Zakim]
- bijan should no longer be muted
- 14:38:12 [kendallclark]
- *[NEW]* *ACTION:* bijan to show that the "strong" version of DISTNCT
- 14:38:12 [kendallclark]
- doesn't interfere with intermittent algebraic operations [recorded in
- 14:38:13 [kendallclark]
- http://www.w3.org/2006/08/15-dawg-minutes.html#action01]
- 14:38:24 [LeeF]
- ACTION: bijan to show that the "strong" version of DISTNCT
- 14:38:25 [LeeF]
- DONE
- 14:38:36 [kendallclark]
- *[NEW]* *ACTION:* Bijan to describe reduction algorithm [recorded in
- 14:38:36 [kendallclark]
- http://www.w3.org/2006/08/15-dawg-minutes.html#action02]
- 14:39:08 [LeeF]
- zakim, agenda?
- 14:39:08 [Zakim]
- I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
- 14:39:10 [Zakim]
- 1. Convene, comments on agenda, fix scribe, roll call, approve minutes [from kendallclark]
- 14:39:12 [Zakim]
- 2. track action items [from kendallclark]
- 14:39:13 [Zakim]
- 3. approve new value tests [from kendallclark]
- 14:39:14 [Zakim]
- 4. LeeF's review of rq24 [from kendallclark]
- 14:39:15 [Zakim]
- 5. datatype and lang tests [from kendallclark]
- 14:39:38 [kendallclark]
- zakim, take up agendum 2
- 14:39:38 [Zakim]
- agendum 2. "track action items" taken up [from kendallclark]
- 14:40:45 [AndyS]
- This one? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JulSep/0151.html
- 14:41:15 [LeeF]
- ACTION: Bijan to describe reduction algorithm
- 14:41:16 [LeeF]
- DONE
- 14:41:30 [kendallclark]
- *[NEW]* *ACTION:* EricP to redraft section 11 to support extensible
- 14:41:30 [kendallclark]
- datatypes [recorded in
- 14:41:31 [kendallclark]
- http://www.w3.org/2006/08/08-dawg-minutes.html#action08]
- 14:41:36 [bijan]
- Andy, yes
- 14:41:43 [bijan]
- Thx
- 14:42:04 [kendallclark]
- zakim, close agendum 2
- 14:42:04 [Zakim]
- agendum 2, track action items, closed
- 14:42:05 [Zakim]
- I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
- 14:42:06 [Zakim]
- 1. Convene, comments on agenda, fix scribe, roll call, approve minutes [from kendallclark]
- 14:42:12 [kendallclark]
- zakim, take up agendum 3
- 14:42:12 [Zakim]
- agendum 3. "approve new value tests" taken up [from kendallclark]
- 14:43:40 [bijan]
- zakim, mute me
- 14:43:40 [Zakim]
- bijan should now be muted
- 14:44:32 [ericP]
- -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JulSep/0117 head of extensibility thread
- 14:45:16 [ericP]
- -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JulSep/0112 head of extensibility thread
- 14:45:27 [SimonR]
- Zakim, mute me
- 14:45:27 [Zakim]
- SimonR should now be muted
- 14:46:28 [bijan]
- zakim, unmute me
- 14:46:28 [Zakim]
- bijan should no longer be muted
- 14:46:29 [bijan]
- q+
- 14:48:00 [kendallclark]
- ack bijan
- 14:49:18 [kendallclark]
- EricP summarizes the monotonicity and datatypes discussion that's ongoing
- 14:50:03 [LeeF]
- ericP: to preserve monotonicity in the face of unknown datatypes, inequality tests involving unknown datatypes should be errors
- 14:50:47 [bijan]
- zakim, mute me
- 14:50:47 [Zakim]
- bijan should now be muted
- 14:51:25 [AndyS]
- PatH: can say two things are equal but not conclude two other things are unequal (unknown types).
- 14:51:25 [kendallclark]
- did you hear me, andy?
- 14:52:13 [ericP]
- -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JulSep/0167 higher level write-up of trade-offs in dwag:mon
- 14:52:17 [AndyS]
- ACTION AndyS: Write some tests for value testing (unknown types and extensibility) to add to 2006/JulSep0086
- 14:54:48 [kendallclark]
- zakim, close agendum 3
- 14:54:48 [Zakim]
- agendum 3, approve new value tests, closed
- 14:54:49 [Zakim]
- I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
- 14:54:50 [Zakim]
- 1. Convene, comments on agenda, fix scribe, roll call, approve minutes [from kendallclark]
- 14:54:58 [kendallclark]
- zakim, close agendum 1
- 14:54:58 [Zakim]
- agendum 1, Convene, comments on agenda, fix scribe, roll call, approve minutes, closed
- 14:55:01 [Zakim]
- I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
- 14:55:03 [Zakim]
- 4. LeeF's review of rq24 [from kendallclark]
- 14:55:04 [kendallclark]
- zakim, take up next agendum
- 14:55:05 [Zakim]
- agendum 4. "LeeF's review of rq24" taken up [from kendallclark]
- 14:58:36 [bijan]
- zakim, unmute me
- 14:58:36 [Zakim]
- bijan should no longer be muted
- 14:58:38 [bijan]
- q+
- 14:59:40 [bijan]
- zakim, mute me
- 14:59:47 [Zakim]
- bijan should now be muted
- 15:00:07 [kendallclark]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 15:00:11 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Elias_Torres, LeeF, AndyS, SimonR (muted), bijan (muted), libby (muted), Kendall_Clark, ericP, PatH
- 15:00:43 [SimonR]
- Zakim, unmute me
- 15:00:43 [Zakim]
- SimonR should no longer be muted
- 15:01:32 [AndyS]
- This is rq23 vs rq24.
- 15:01:50 [EliasT]
- EliasT has joined #dawg
- 15:01:59 [AndyS]
- That's less than full review
- 15:02:49 [ericP]
- -> http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=35463 Tucanna is not on the list
- 15:03:24 [AndyS]
- SimonR is not in the DB records.
- 15:03:27 [kendallclark]
- ACTION SimonR: to review rq24
- 15:03:42 [AndyS]
- rq24 is http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/rq24.html
- 15:03:51 [AndyS]
- rq23 is http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/
- 15:04:29 [kendallclark]
- zakim, next agendum?
- 15:04:29 [Zakim]
- I don't understand your question, kendallclark.
- 15:04:34 [kendallclark]
- zakim, take up next agendum?
- 15:04:34 [Zakim]
- I don't understand your question, kendallclark.
- 15:04:36 [kendallclark]
- zakim, take up next agendum
- 15:04:36 [Zakim]
- agendum 5. "datatype and lang tests" taken up [from kendallclark]
- 15:06:43 [SimonR]
- Zakim, mute me
- 15:06:43 [Zakim]
- SimonR should now be muted
- 15:06:45 [kendallclark]
- it's good for you :
- 15:06:46 [kendallclark]
- )
- 15:08:29 [AndyS]
- example: datatype("plain string")
- 15:09:10 [AndyS]
- c.f. RDF MT rules xsd1a and xsd1b
- 15:11:01 [kendallclark]
- ADJOURNED
- 15:11:03 [Zakim]
- -Elias_Torres
- 15:11:06 [SimonR]
- Zakim, unmute me
- 15:11:06 [Zakim]
- SimonR should no longer be muted
- 15:11:36 [bijan]
- zakim, unmute me
- 15:11:36 [Zakim]
- bijan should no longer be muted
- 15:12:05 [kendallclark]
- EricP: can you do the pub minutes magic?
- 15:13:31 [ericP]
- RRSAgent, please draft minutes
- 15:13:31 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/08/22-dawg-minutes.html ericP
- 15:13:41 [ericP]
- RRSAgent, please make minutes public
- 15:13:41 [RRSAgent]
- I'm logging. I don't understand 'please make minutes public', ericP. Try /msg RRSAgent help
- 15:13:42 [kendallclark]
- thanks, eric
- 15:13:57 [ericP]
- i've never gotten that last one right
- 15:14:06 [kendallclark]
- yr not the only one :)
- 15:14:46 [AndyS]
- rrsagent, stop logging
- 15:14:46 [RRSAgent]
- I'm logging. I don't understand 'stop logging', AndyS. Try /msg RRSAgent help
- 15:15:06 [kendallclark]
- rrsagent: piss off!
- 15:15:06 [RRSAgent]
- I'm logging. I don't understand 'piss off!', kendallclark. Try /msg RRSAgent help
- 15:15:25 [AndyS]
- rrsagent, stop