IRC log of tagmem on 2006-08-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:59:27 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/08/08-tagmem-irc
16:59:31 [Zakim]
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16:59:47 [DanC]
Zakim, this will be tag
16:59:47 [Zakim]
ok, DanC; I see TAG_Weekly()12:30PM scheduled to start 29 minutes ago
17:01:02 [Zakim]
TAG_Weekly()12:30PM has now started
17:01:09 [Zakim]
+Noah_Mendelsohn
17:01:54 [Zakim]
-Noah_Mendelsohn
17:01:55 [Zakim]
+Noah_Mendelsohn
17:01:57 [Zakim]
+DanC
17:02:26 [DanC]
agenda + Convene, take roll, review records and agenda
17:02:37 [DanC]
agenda + issue genericResources-53
17:02:44 [DanC]
agenda + issue URNsAndRegistries-50
17:02:50 [DanC]
agenda + issue XMLVersioning-41
17:02:57 [DanC]
agenda + medata in URI
17:03:45 [Noah]
s/medata/metadata/
17:04:17 [Zakim]
+DOrchard
17:04:24 [DanC]
agenda 5 = issue metadataInURI-31
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17:08:54 [EdR]
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17:09:05 [Zakim]
+Ed_Rice
17:10:00 [ht]
ht has joined #tagmem
17:10:23 [ht]
I'm having audio/telephone pblms, will call as soon as I can sort them
17:10:33 [DanC]
ah. ok
17:10:37 [DanC]
Zakim, take up item 1
17:10:37 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Convene, take roll, review records and agenda" taken up [from DanC]
17:11:15 [DanC]
Zakim, agenda order is 1, 4, 2, 3, 5
17:11:15 [Zakim]
ok, DanC
17:11:18 [DanC]
Zakim, agenda?
17:11:18 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
17:11:19 [Zakim]
1. Convene, take roll, review records and agenda [from DanC]
17:11:20 [Zakim]
4. issue XMLVersioning-41 [from DanC]
17:11:21 [Zakim]
2. issue genericResources-53 [from DanC]
17:11:23 [Zakim]
3. issue URNsAndRegistries-50 [from DanC]
17:11:25 [Zakim]
5. issue metadataInURI-31
17:12:02 [DanC]
-> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2006/07/18-tagmem-minutes.html minutes 18 July
17:12:21 [DanC]
Meeting: TAG Teleconference of 8 August 2006
17:12:30 [DanC]
agenda: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2006/08/08-agenda
17:12:32 [DanC]
Scribe: Ed
17:12:32 [Noah]
agenda: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2006/08/08-agenda
17:12:46 [EdR]
Topic: Minutes 18 july.
17:12:53 [Noah]
scribenick: EdR
17:13:19 [DanC]
RESOLVED: to approve minutes 18 July
17:13:46 [EdR]
RESOLUTION: Minutes 18 july approved.
17:13:49 [DanC]
"
17:13:49 [DanC]
Note some actions done: VQ sent quarterly summary; Noah sent reply to AB on Use of Unregistered Media Types in W3C Recommendations"
17:14:10 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
17:14:10 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "issue XMLVersioning-41" taken up [from DanC]
17:14:20 [ht]
zakim, what is the code?
17:14:20 [Zakim]
the conference code is 0824 (tel:+1.617.761.6200), ht
17:14:22 [dorchard]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/versioning-20060726.html
17:14:43 [EdR]
issue XMLVersioning-41
17:15:26 [DanC]
partial understanding bit is new http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/versioning-20060726.html#div437044120
17:15:26 [EdR]
Dave: would like to run through some additions that I've made.
17:15:41 [EdR]
DO: if you take a look at section 1.1.1 compatibility
17:15:50 [EdR]
do: I've added a section called partial understanding.
17:15:57 [DanC]
hmm... "Partial Understanding a language is the creation of a language" looks wierd. understanding is creation?
17:16:06 [Noah]
I had the same problem
17:16:38 [Zakim]
+ +1.207.449.aaaa
17:17:10 [EdR]
DO: defining backwards compatible
17:17:56 [ht]
zakim, +1 is ht
17:17:56 [Zakim]
+ht; got it
17:18:23 [EdR]
discussion on the definiation of backwards compatible.
17:19:21 [EdR]
DO: I think there will be some tweeking of the definitions, but I want to make progress on the notion of capatibility.
17:20:40 [DanC]
I think the backward/fwd compatibility definitions need to refer to the mapping from syntax to semantics, which seems to be called "Act of Interpretatin" in http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/ext-vers-generic-uml-v4.png
17:22:08 [ht]
q+
17:24:08 [Noah]
q+ to say that forward and backward compatibility should be symmetric wrt both syntax and meaning
17:24:56 [EdR]
Ack Noah
17:24:56 [Zakim]
Noah, you wanted to say that forward and backward compatibility should be symmetric wrt both syntax and meaning
17:25:07 [DanC]
ack ht
17:26:17 [Noah]
My preferred approach, as I've said before, is to start with partial compatibility, and view full forward and backward as the interesting special cases.
17:26:21 [DanC]
(hmm... I'm trying to figure out whether to have Dave present and defend each definition, especially since Dave said he doesn't claim the defns are all right.)
17:26:39 [Noah]
I think we should be asking: when someone with knowledge of language 2 receives a document sent with knowledge of language 1:
17:26:48 [dorchard]
(would prefer to go through the doc, then return. allows me to get to some interesting conclusions)
17:26:51 [Noah]
a) Which if any such texts will be rejected as illegal syntax
17:26:57 [EdR]
I think the definitions in the doc may add too much complexity to an otherwise easy topic.
17:27:20 [Noah]
b) Which will be accepted and yield information which is clearly different, perhaps dangerously different, from that which the sender intended (e.g. I sent true, you read false)
17:27:41 [Noah]
c) Which information will be conveyed exactly as intended (family name is Smith)
17:27:57 [Noah]
d) Which information is partially conveyed (this guy has a last name, but I can't grok what)
17:28:08 [Zakim]
+Raman
17:28:10 [Noah]
I would build the story >starting< with that.
17:28:24 [raman]
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17:28:37 [EdR]
DO: I think it would be useful to go through the partial understanding.. and then return.
17:28:44 [Noah]
Full backward compatibility is then the special case: a) all texts legal, b) never a dangerous misconclusion c) all information conveyed exactly as intended.
17:30:03 [Noah]
Partial understanding should be explained as degrees of the above, with the goal being to do what meets the needs of the application, which may vary with circumstance (this application may be OK just knowing reliably that the person has a given name)
17:33:19 [ht]
Wrt the current discussion, I highly recommend an ancient document by Eve Maler, written as input to the Schema WG work on open content models, "Substitutability Requirements for Different Applications": http://www.w3.org/XML/Group/1999/08/s14y-paper
17:33:26 [Noah]
q?
17:33:35 [ht]
q+ to mention this old work
17:33:47 [Noah]
q+ to go through my proposed model of partial understanding as logged above
17:34:05 [ht]
Also "Refinement Task Force Report": http://www.w3.org/XML/Group/1999/07/schema-refine/refinement-taskforce-report.htm#AEN731
17:35:12 [DanC]
q+ to ask if the good practice notes under "This leads us to two versioning practices" argues in any particular direction about whether css documents should contain version indicators
17:35:26 [Noah]
BTW: Filling in the formulation I started above, Full Forward Compatibility would be exactly the same as backward, but with the documents sent from someone with knowledge of newer language to older.
17:37:14 [DanC]
q + later to give a counterpoint to "use least understanding" cuz it leaves no spare bandwidth
17:37:19 [DanC]
q+ later to give a counterpoint to "use least understanding" cuz it leaves no spare bandwidth
17:37:45 [DanC]
ack ht
17:37:45 [Zakim]
ht, you wanted to mention this old work
17:38:21 [dorchard]
ht, I really liked Eve's paper
17:39:00 [Noah]
I'm starting to feel that our process for discussing this isn't quite as effective as it could be. For future telcons, I suggest that we try to review only drafts that have been out for a week or so, and that if a roadmap is needed, that they should be sent in accompanying email. That way, we can just ensure that everyone on the call has read drafts and roadmaps, and start discussion from there.
17:39:04 [DanC]
(is it world-readable now? the /Group/ suggests not)
17:39:57 [DanC]
ack Noah
17:39:57 [Zakim]
Noah, you wanted to go through my proposed model of partial understanding as logged above
17:40:34 [DanC]
[[
17:40:34 [DanC]
$ HEAD http://www.w3.org/XML/Group/1999/08/s14y-paper
17:40:34 [DanC]
Enter username for W3CACL at www.w3.org:80:
17:40:35 [DanC]
]
17:40:37 [DanC]
]
17:40:40 [ht]
That paper is member only
17:40:51 [ht]
DO, did Eve put it elsewheree
17:40:56 [dorchard]
let me check
17:41:29 [ht]
http://www.pacificspirit.com/Authoring/Compatibility/s14y-paper.htm
17:41:38 [ht]
You already did it!
17:41:45 [dorchard]
exactly!
17:44:45 [DanC]
(the question of whether to go general-to-specific or specific-to-general is an art form. I lean toward the way Dave's got it written currently, though I need to read it more closely.)
17:51:00 [EdR]
Noah: I would have said 'given one language, there are many other languages that for some of the instances
17:51:18 [EdR]
there is partial understanding.. I'm trying to say that a language is not an understanding.
17:51:57 [EdR]
Noah: to me, this partial understanding is a more symentric relationship.
17:52:19 [EdR]
Noah: between a sender/receiver and two languages.
17:52:53 [EdR]
Noah: to me it would be very useful to see that layed out in some kind of firm way and explain in ways that people can understand.
17:53:02 [DanC]
Zakim, danc
17:53:02 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'danc', DanC
17:53:09 [EdR]
ack Danc
17:53:09 [Zakim]
DanC, you wanted to ask if the good practice notes under "This leads us to two versioning practices" argues in any particular direction about whether css documents should contain
17:53:12 [Zakim]
... version indicators
17:54:37 [EdR]
Dan: is this relevant to the discussion of if CSS documents should have version indicators.
17:55:06 [Noah]
FWIW: I also think the advice on conservative in what you produce and liberal in what you consume is NOT in all cases good advice. Take XML for example, it does NOT encourage accepting (MYTAG) as a substitue for <MYTAG>, and for good reason
17:55:16 [EdR]
Dave: I dont know if thats relevant.. because I dont know what they're using the version indicator for.
17:55:29 [EdR]
Dave: they dont use the version indicator in CSS.
17:55:35 [Noah]
The liberal/conservative stuff is a tough tradeoff, between the liklihood that the system will keep doing something, and whether it will in some sense behaive reliably
17:55:59 [EdR]
(Ed thinks CSS should have a version indicator for the very reasons of compatibility)
17:56:15 [Noah]
I tend to buy the be conservative in what you send/flexible in what you consume mainly when humans (or some other agent) is there to pick up the pieces when mistakes are made
17:56:43 [DanC]
ack danc
17:56:43 [Zakim]
DanC, you wanted to give a counterpoint to "use least understanding" cuz it leaves no spare bandwidth
17:56:48 [dorchard]
henry, I use the term subsitutability because of Eve's paper
17:56:55 [EdR]
TV: The moment you go down the 'people are flexible in what they consume' so I can be flexible in what I produce than this creates a potential hole.
17:57:32 [EdR]
TV: We've always had this problem on the web and it appears to be getting worse.
17:57:38 [Noah]
DC: Being liberal in what you accept can dig a hole, because it can make it hard to later give a particular meaning to a TAG that's been "liberally" accepted.
17:58:01 [EdR]
DO: I think the partial understanding and advising people to use the least power is great on the 'consuming side' but we should be conservative in what we produce.
18:00:35 [dorchard]
q+
18:00:48 [dorchard]
q+ to mention TCP has nothing to do with humans
18:00:58 [DanC]
ack dorchard
18:00:58 [Zakim]
dorchard, you wanted to mention TCP has nothing to do with humans
18:03:13 [dorchard]
liberal in accepting works when there's a feedback loop to fix the instances back to the "conservative"
18:04:23 [DanC]
(holy grail: explain the interaction of The Internet Robustness principle with "people will take the shortest path to victory" and "follow the money" from micro to macro economics)
18:04:32 [dorchard]
(lol!)
18:08:49 [dorchard]
TVR: there is a difference between languages designed by humans for humans vs protocols between machines
18:08:50 [DanC]
ACTION DanC: review definitions of partial understanding, backward compatible, and forward compatible
18:10:07 [dorchard]
Noah: I don't believe there's a bumper sticker, there are trade-offs
18:11:26 [Noah]
Exactly.
18:11:54 [EdR]
DO: I'll observe that Noah is pushing back on the bumper-sticker but I've been trying to use the bumper-sticker because I think its useful to think about partial understanding.
18:13:30 [EdR]
Dan: Do we want to take the whole call on this?
18:13:35 [EdR]
DO: this is usefull
18:13:49 [ht]
q+ to say something about DI vs DD and Raman's draft
18:13:50 [dorchard]
TVR, I posted a blog entry on protocols
18:13:52 [dorchard]
http://www.pacificspirit.com/blog/2004/06/14/protocol_extensibility_and_versioning
18:14:04 [EdR]
TV: Dave, how do you see the scope of this document? Is is language only or machine read or machine consumed.
18:14:44 [EdR]
TV: it could be 1) purely talking about language versioning (machine to machine)
18:14:54 [Noah]
My concern is that, if you take one side of a tradeoff and make it a bumper sticker, then one has to ask how people learn about the tradeoffs.
18:15:05 [EdR]
2) Purely web (produced by machines, but also consumed by people.
18:15:08 [Noah]
If this really isn't a tradeoff, or mostly isn't, then fine: keep the story simple.
18:15:12 [EdR]
DO: its both.
18:15:28 [DanC]
(I didn't hear a clear 2nd bumper sticker; I'm inclined to ask Noah to draft it.)
18:15:29 [Noah]
If this really is a tradeoff, then oversimplifying it isn't educating our audience to the truth.
18:15:35 [ht]
+0 to the tradeoff approach
18:15:48 [EdR]
TV then I think we should spend time working on the two bumper-sticker idea (Noah's)
18:15:53 [EdR]
DO: yes, I really like that idea.
18:16:19 [EdR]
Dan: so what is the 2nd bumper sticker.
18:16:33 [EdR]
Be conservative in what you accept and conservative in what you produce.
18:16:42 [EdR]
Noah: stick to the speck.
18:16:55 [ht]
DanC once said "validate at trust boundaries"
18:17:10 [DanC]
yes, I think "stick to the spec; it promotes interop" is a good counterpoint to "be liberal..."
18:17:17 [ht]
That's a bumper sticker which amounts to "Be conservative in what you accept"
18:17:38 [ht]
zakim, unmute me
18:17:38 [Zakim]
ht should no longer be muted
18:18:40 [EdR]
Zakim, list participants
18:18:40 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Noah_Mendelsohn, DanC, DOrchard, Ed_Rice, +1.207.449.aaaa, ht, Raman
18:20:38 [EdR]
ht: one of the reasons xml has been so success is because its so strict.
18:20:38 [raman]
raman has left #tagmem
18:21:26 [ht]
zakim, mute me
18:21:26 [Zakim]
ht should now be muted
18:21:28 [EdR]
DO: I think this has been really useful
18:22:11 [ht]
me is already on the hook for reviewing. . .
18:22:17 [ht]
s/me/ht/
18:22:43 [EdR]
me can draft the agenda and chair on the 15th then..
18:23:06 [Noah]
HT: I think XML is an important example. It's acceptance seems to trace in part to the lack of flexibility in what's accepted.
18:23:08 [EdR]
Dave: I think I'd like to take another shot at it.
18:23:20 [Noah]
I have a strong +1 what what Henry said.
18:23:30 [DanC]
(nobody is precluded from sending comments/suggestions to www-tag, meanwhile)
18:24:03 [Noah]
I should note that I will around for the call next week, then gone for 2 or maybe 3 weeks
18:24:23 [DanC]
DO: ETA 3 weeks, i.e. 29 Aug
18:24:24 [EdR]
DO: I can try another revision 3 weeks from now. .. the 29th for publish.
18:24:48 [DanC]
DanC: friday before helps
18:24:58 [DanC]
DO: ok, I can prolly get it out for review Thu/Fri before
18:24:59 [EdR]
DO: I'll publish on the 24th/25th for review on the 29th.
18:25:07 [EdR]
Noah: I'm at risk for that date.
18:25:09 [DanC]
NM: I'm at risk for the 29 Aug call
18:25:29 [ht_]
ht_ has joined #tagmem
18:25:48 [ht_]
zakim, unmute ht
18:25:48 [Zakim]
ht should no longer be muted
18:25:51 [DanC]
Topic: next meeting
18:25:56 [DanC]
regrets 15 Aug: TBL, VQ
18:26:39 [DanC]
PROPOSED: to meet again 15 Aug, Ed to chair, Noah to scribe
18:26:47 [DanC]
so RESOLVED.
18:27:50 [DanC]
HT: the DI WG has indicated interest in the genericResources draft
18:29:50 [DanC]
ACTION HT: coordinate with Ed on involving DI WG participants on for genericResources-53 discussion 15 Aug
18:30:11 [EdR]
Meeting adjourned.
18:30:12 [DanC]
ADJOURN.
18:30:15 [Zakim]
-Raman
18:30:18 [Zakim]
-DOrchard
18:30:23 [Zakim]
-Noah_Mendelsohn
18:30:28 [DanC]
RRSAgent, make logs world-access
18:30:32 [Zakim]
-DanC
18:30:38 [Noah]
Dave: If you want to compare notes on versioning, I'm mostly around this week and next, then off at Schema meetings and vacation.
18:30:40 [Noah]
Your call.
18:30:55 [EdR]
RRSAgend, generate minutes
18:31:08 [DanC]
t
18:31:12 [Noah]
Doesn't seem like we need to talk about much right now, but if things come up while you're drafting, feel free to ping me.
18:31:18 [EdR]
RRSAgent, generate minutes
18:31:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/08/08-tagmem-minutes.html EdR
18:31:38 [EdR]
Zakim, bye
18:31:38 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Noah_Mendelsohn, DanC, DOrchard, Ed_Rice, +1.207.449.aaaa, ht, Raman
18:31:38 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #tagmem
18:31:47 [EdR]
RRSAgent, bye
18:31:47 [RRSAgent]
I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/08-tagmem-actions.rdf :
18:31:47 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: DanC to review definitions of partial understanding, backward compatible, and forward compatible [1]
18:31:47 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/08-tagmem-irc#T18-08-50
18:31:47 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: HT to coordinate with Ed on involving DI WG participants on for genericResources-53 discussion 15 Aug [2]
18:31:47 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/08-tagmem-irc#T18-29-50