IRC log of i18ncore on 2006-04-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:50:30 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #i18ncore
13:50:30 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/04/11-i18ncore-irc
13:50:33 [fsasaki]
meeting: i18n core working group
13:50:36 [fsasaki]
chair: Francois
13:50:39 [fsasaki]
scribe: Felix
13:50:46 [fsasaki]
scribeNick: fsasaki
13:51:00 [fsasaki]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2006Apr/0028.html
14:00:41 [fsasaki]
zakim, dial felix-home
14:00:41 [Zakim]
ok, fsasaki; the call is being made
14:00:42 [Zakim]
I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM has now started
14:00:43 [Zakim]
+Felix
14:01:48 [fyergeau]
fyergeau has joined #i18ncore
14:02:02 [fsasaki]
hi Francois
14:02:50 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
14:02:51 [fyergeau]
zakim, [ is fyergeau
14:02:51 [Zakim]
+fyergeau; got it
14:04:33 [r12a]
r12a has joined #i18ncore
14:04:41 [r12a]
zakim, dial ishida-home
14:04:41 [Zakim]
ok, r12a; the call is being made
14:04:43 [Zakim]
+Ishida
14:05:03 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
14:05:12 [r12a]
zakim, mute ishida
14:05:12 [Zakim]
Ishida should now be muted
14:05:17 [fyergeau]
zakim, [ is Mary
14:05:18 [Zakim]
+Mary; got it
14:06:07 [fsasaki]
topic: action items
14:06:13 [r12a]
i'd like to add an agenda item: new home page proposal
14:06:37 [fsasaki]
action: all to look at the TAG issue (DONE)
14:07:09 [fsasaki]
felix: karl said he will not bring the issue to the TAG
14:07:14 [fsasaki]
.. for now
14:07:47 [fsasaki]
action: everybody to look at the mail about charmod+voicexml (DONE)
14:08:07 [fsasaki]
action: Felix ask Max if he can join next week's i18n core call (DONE)
14:08:37 [fsasaki]
felix: max and kazuyuki will join us later about this
14:08:51 [fsasaki]
action: Felix to write an IRI implementation report (DONE)
14:09:02 [fsasaki]
action: Felix to find out where the tests from Martin are located (ONGOING)
14:09:12 [fsasaki]
yves: need to follow up on that
14:09:36 [fsasaki]
s/yves/francois
14:10:01 [fsasaki]
action: felix to go trough LTLI within the next 2 weeks (DONE)
14:10:14 [fsasaki]
action: Francois to build a current issues list on charmod (PENDING)
14:10:24 [fsasaki]
action: Mary to look at WS Addr (DONE)
14:10:30 [fsasaki]
mary: looked at it
14:10:39 [fsasaki]
.. they don't need really comments, it seemed to be o.k.
14:10:43 [fsasaki]
.. they use IRIs
14:10:54 [fsasaki]
francois: good
14:11:26 [fsasaki]
.. so we just forget about it for now
14:11:40 [fsasaki]
action: Mary will make the updates discussed in Mandelieu on ws i18n (ONGOING)
14:12:03 [fsasaki]
topic: charmod + voice xml 2.1
14:12:27 [r12a]
zakim, unmute ishida
14:12:27 [Zakim]
Ishida should no longer be muted
14:12:33 [fsasaki]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2006Apr/0019.html
14:12:37 [fsasaki]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2006Apr/0020.html
14:16:07 [fsasaki]
francois: it is a problem with IPA
14:16:31 [fsasaki]
.. but "sounds" in charmod is the sounds as human understand it
14:16:35 [r12a]
zakim, unmute ishida
14:16:35 [Zakim]
Ishida was not muted, r12a
14:16:37 [fsasaki]
.. which IPA is designed for
14:17:36 [fsasaki]
richard: if you deal with phonemes
14:17:57 [fsasaki]
.. the same phonetic symbol may be pronounced differently, in relation to language
14:18:14 [fsasaki]
.. at the phonemic level, there are not fine distinctions
14:19:15 [fsasaki]
francois: the full range of a phoneme is language dependent
14:19:24 [fsasaki]
.. but SSML is speech synthesis
14:19:42 [fsasaki]
.. i.e., you create the IPA character and create a sound which is not language dependend at all
14:20:28 [fsasaki]
.. we wrote this MUST because of "normal" writing systems
14:20:39 [fsasaki]
.. where is no 1:1 relation between writing and speech
14:20:56 [fsasaki]
.. but IPA exists exactly for that
14:22:15 [fsasaki]
.. so the MUST NOT needs an exception clause like
14:22:26 [fsasaki]
.. "except in the case of phonetic alphabets"
14:23:03 [fsasaki]
.. we could integrate this as an errata in charmod
14:23:53 [fsasaki]
.. next issue: C013
14:23:56 [fsasaki]
.. I agree
14:24:08 [fsasaki]
Richard: they don't use the term "encoding" in the same way
14:24:25 [fsasaki]
.. they mean a format for representing data, not "character encoding" as we do
14:25:30 [fsasaki]
francois: just a misunderstanding, no breaking
14:26:00 [fsasaki]
.. next issue: C043:
14:26:04 [fsasaki]
.. no breakage
14:26:23 [fsasaki]
.. C010: easy to fix
14:27:34 [fsasaki]
.. C067:
14:27:55 [fsasaki]
.. they should use a different term, it' possible without breaking anything in their specs
14:28:32 [fsasaki]
.. C014:
14:29:04 [fsasaki]
.. I don't understand the issue
14:29:37 [fsasaki]
richard: I don't see that as an issue
14:29:48 [fsasaki]
francois: it is not explicit, that's all
14:30:40 [fsasaki]
topic: home page
14:30:44 [r12a]
http://www.w3.org/blog/I18NBlog.php
14:31:10 [fsasaki]
richard: it is blog based
14:31:31 [fsasaki]
.. this will make it much easier to keep the home page up to date
14:31:42 [fsasaki]
.. I used to run XSLT processes and a lot of copying
14:31:58 [fsasaki]
.. now if you have the permisson to write to the blog, you can do it yourself
14:32:10 [fsasaki]
francois: so it is a content management system?
14:32:52 [fsasaki]
richard: it is a blog software called D2Evolution
14:33:16 [fsasaki]
francois: that sounds good
14:33:34 [fsasaki]
.. does it also do excerpting of news items?
14:33:41 [fsasaki]
richard: yes
14:34:33 [fsasaki]
francois: a good CMS is wonderful
14:34:42 [fsasaki]
.. so this would be the HP for the activity
14:34:58 [fsasaki]
.. I'm not sure if they are needed for the working group HPs
14:35:05 [fsasaki]
.. it is a way of handling news
14:35:28 [fsasaki]
richard: you can put other things in as well
14:35:51 [fsasaki]
.. it is basically the same page, but with other stuff for handling news
14:35:56 [fsasaki]
francois: very nice
14:36:04 [fsasaki]
.. it is permisson based?
14:36:07 [fsasaki]
richard: yes
14:36:50 [fsasaki]
richard: any problems with this?
14:37:22 [fsasaki]
everybody likes the idea
14:37:44 [fsasaki]
richard: it will be mapped to the normal /International/Overview.html
14:37:55 [fsasaki]
.. an internal mapping, you won't see it
14:37:59 [fsasaki]
francois: very good
14:38:35 [Kazuyuki]
Kazuyuki has joined #i18ncore
14:39:21 [Kazuyuki]
think so
14:39:42 [Kazuyuki]
I let him know about this channel
14:39:43 [maxf]
maxf has joined #i18ncore
14:40:14 [maxf]
zakim, dial maxf-skype
14:40:14 [Zakim]
ok, maxf; the call is being made
14:40:16 [Zakim]
+Maxf
14:40:33 [r12a]
maxf, voicemail
14:40:40 [maxf]
zakim, drop me
14:40:40 [Zakim]
Maxf is being disconnected
14:40:41 [Zakim]
-Maxf
14:40:53 [maxf]
sorry, forgot to leave other call...
14:40:56 [maxf]
Zakim, dial maxf-skype
14:40:57 [Zakim]
ok, maxf; the call is being made
14:40:58 [Zakim]
+Maxf
14:43:09 [Kazuyuki]
zakim, call kazuyuki-home
14:43:09 [Zakim]
ok, Kazuyuki; the call is being made
14:43:11 [Zakim]
+Kazuyuki
14:43:15 [Zakim]
-Kazuyuki
14:43:19 [Kazuyuki]
zakim, call kazuyuki-home
14:43:19 [Zakim]
ok, Kazuyuki; the call is being made
14:43:21 [Zakim]
+Kazuyuki
14:43:25 [Zakim]
-Kazuyuki
14:43:32 [Kazuyuki]
why...
14:43:35 [Kazuyuki]
zakim, call kazuyuki-home
14:43:35 [Zakim]
ok, Kazuyuki; the call is being made
14:43:37 [Zakim]
+Kazuyuki
14:43:41 [Zakim]
-Kazuyuki
14:43:46 [Kazuyuki]
hmm
14:44:03 [fyergeau]
zakim, who is making noise?
14:44:09 [Kazuyuki]
zakim, call Kazuyuki-Home
14:44:09 [Zakim]
ok, Kazuyuki; the call is being made
14:44:11 [Zakim]
+Kazuyuki
14:44:16 [Zakim]
fyergeau, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: fyergeau (24%)
14:44:42 [Kazuyuki]
zakim, who is here?
14:44:42 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Felix, fyergeau, Ishida, Mary, Maxf, Kazuyuki
14:44:43 [Zakim]
On IRC I see maxf, Kazuyuki, r12a, fyergeau, RRSAgent, Zakim, fsasaki
14:44:47 [fsasaki]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2006Apr/0020.html
14:44:52 [Kazuyuki]
zakim, mute me
14:44:52 [Zakim]
Kazuyuki should now be muted
14:45:23 [maxf]
Zakim, mute me
14:45:23 [Zakim]
Maxf should now be muted
14:46:36 [maxf]
Zakim, unmute me
14:46:36 [Zakim]
Maxf should no longer be muted
14:46:46 [maxf]
Zakim, mute me
14:46:46 [Zakim]
Maxf should now be muted
14:47:03 [maxf]
Zakim, unmute me
14:47:03 [Zakim]
Maxf should no longer be muted
14:47:32 [Kazuyuki]
max: C001?
14:47:55 [Kazuyuki]
hmm. there is terrible echo...
14:47:55 [r12a]
"C001 [S] [I] [C] Specifications, software and content MUST NOT
14:47:55 [r12a]
> require or depend on a one-to-one correspondence between characters
14:47:55 [r12a]
> and the sounds of a language."
14:48:10 [r12a]
+1 to terrible echo
14:48:32 [maxf]
Zakim, mute me
14:48:32 [Zakim]
Maxf should now be muted
14:48:36 [maxf]
echo is me :(
14:48:49 [fsasaki]
francois: the don't think that this is an error of charmod, but we need to make clear that the scope of this statement are other languages than IPA
14:49:05 [maxf]
Zakim, unmute me
14:49:05 [Zakim]
Maxf should no longer be muted
14:49:10 [maxf]
Zakim, mute me
14:49:10 [Zakim]
Maxf should now be muted
14:49:20 [fsasaki]
felix: max, do you want to reply?
14:49:26 [maxf]
I just did...
14:49:34 [r12a]
we didn't hear you
14:49:37 [maxf]
zakim, drop me
14:49:37 [Zakim]
Maxf is being disconnected
14:49:39 [Zakim]
-Maxf
14:50:24 [Kazuyuki]
sorry, max's skype seems bad today...
14:51:26 [maxf]
I'll be back in a minute
14:51:29 [fyergeau]
...or the phase of the moon!
14:51:47 [Kazuyuki]
heh
14:52:09 [Zakim]
+MaxF
14:52:31 [Kazuyuki]
zakim, who's here?
14:52:31 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Felix (muted), fyergeau, Ishida, Mary, Kazuyuki (muted), MaxF
14:52:34 [Zakim]
On IRC I see maxf, Kazuyuki, r12a, fyergeau, RRSAgent, Zakim, fsasaki
14:53:07 [fsasaki]
maxf: I'm fine with amanding c001 that it is not about phonetic languages, but the other ones
14:53:28 [r12a]
zakim, mute ishida
14:53:28 [Zakim]
Ishida should now be muted
14:53:40 [fsasaki]
francois: explains C013
14:53:57 [fsasaki]
.. voice xml documents are XML, i.e. in a single character encoding
14:54:13 [fsasaki]
.. DTMF is another data object, we don't see a conflict with charmod
14:54:26 [fsasaki]
maxf: I misunderstood what was meant by "data object"
14:54:42 [fsasaki]
s/misunderstood/probably misunderstood
14:55:06 [fsasaki]
francois: if you use XML, you don't violate C013
14:55:22 [fsasaki]
.. C043 : XML breaks that, that is why it is a SHOULD
14:55:32 [fsasaki]
.. your spec does it on the virtue of XML
14:55:47 [fsasaki]
.. you cannot violate XML in your spec
14:56:07 [fsasaki]
maxf: does it make sense to say that documents should conform to charmod?
14:56:17 [fsasaki]
francois: yes, as much as it is applicable
14:56:28 [fsasaki]
maxf: so if it is XML, does it not come automatically?
14:56:57 [fsasaki]
francois: a lot does, but even then a lot of things need to be discussed
14:57:05 [fsasaki]
.. there are some charmod requirements about content
14:57:22 [fsasaki]
.. e.g. the 1:1: correspondence of sound and characters, which we will fix
14:57:38 [fsasaki]
maxf: another question:
14:57:49 [fsasaki]
.. if the first version of our spec did not mandate charmod
14:57:54 [fsasaki]
.. and if we mandate it now
14:58:03 [fsasaki]
.. do we loose backward compatibility?
14:58:18 [fsasaki]
francois: I don't know the spec to give an answer
14:58:32 [fsasaki]
maxf: it is more a question of QA
14:58:43 [fsasaki]
francois: you are 95% covered because of XML
14:58:52 [fsasaki]
maxf: yes, but what about the 5% left?
14:59:37 [fsasaki]
.. e.g. the two syntaxes for character escapes
14:59:56 [fsasaki]
francois: but that does not break XML
15:00:23 [fsasaki]
.. you encourage people not to break a SHOULD, but if you have good reasons, it is o.k.
15:00:47 [fsasaki]
.. C010:
15:01:09 [fsasaki]
.. if there is a problem about the term "character" in your spec, it should be fixed
15:01:26 [fsasaki]
.. I don't know where voice xml breaks, but can't you fix it?
15:01:33 [fsasaki]
maxf: voice xml 2.1 is a diff spec
15:01:40 [fsasaki]
.. it adds features on top of 2.0
15:01:49 [fsasaki]
.. we don't indent to change 2.0
15:02:12 [fsasaki]
francois: but you could add a definition saying what you mean by character in the 2.1 diff
15:02:26 [fsasaki]
.. if it is localized in a section, it is possible
15:03:08 [r12a]
zakim, unmute ishida
15:03:09 [Zakim]
Ishida should no longer be muted
15:03:14 [fsasaki]
maxf: we talk sometimes about DTMS "characters", not XML characters
15:03:30 [fsasaki]
francois: to me DTMS is tones, not characters
15:03:37 [fsasaki]
maxf: there is a mapping to characters
15:03:41 [Kazuyuki]
s/DTMS/DTMF/
15:03:53 [Kazuyuki]
:)
15:04:02 [fsasaki]
richard: as tones are mapped to characters
15:04:10 [fsasaki]
.. that are unicode characters, right?
15:04:19 [fsasaki]
maxf: in the voice xml spec, there is no mapping defined
15:04:35 [fsasaki]
.. looking for the part of the spec which talks about it
15:04:41 [maxf]
<choice dtmf="1" next="http://www.sports.example.com/vxml/start.vxml"/>
15:04:41 [maxf]
<choice dtmf="2" next="http://www.weather.example.com/intro.vxml"/>
15:04:42 [maxf]
<choice dtmf="3" next="http://www.stargazer.example.com/astronews.vxml"/>
15:05:21 [fsasaki]
francois: what is dtmf=1?
15:05:42 [fsasaki]
maxf: it says "the DTMF recognizer has received a character '1"
15:05:48 [fsasaki]
francois: so there is a mapping
15:06:08 [fsasaki]
maxf: but the DTMF document don't say that, they are not explicit about it
15:06:35 [fsasaki]
richard: characters like "1" and "2" exist in Unicode, so there is a problem in Unicode
15:06:58 [fsasaki]
maxf: the problem is our wrong use of "character"
15:07:28 [fsasaki]
francois: so these are XML characters to match these characters
15:07:49 [fsasaki]
.. so the DTMF recognizer does the mapping, it is outside the voice xml spec
15:08:01 [fsasaki]
.. if there is a different DTMF version, the spec would just use that
15:08:08 [fsasaki]
maxf: yes
15:08:16 [fsasaki]
francois: that's no conflict with charmod
15:08:30 [fsasaki]
maxf: do you recommend that we change our wording?
15:08:54 [fsasaki]
francois: if you write s.t. like "if we say characters, we mean XML characters"
15:08:59 [fsasaki]
maxf: o.k.
15:09:15 [fsasaki]
francois: C014
15:09:21 [fsasaki]
.. no conflict as well
15:09:32 [fsasaki]
.. so all is left is C001
15:10:10 [Zakim]
-Mary
15:10:11 [Zakim]
-fyergeau
15:10:19 [Zakim]
-Ishida
15:10:31 [Zakim]
-Kazuyuki
15:10:51 [Zakim]
-Felix
15:11:26 [fsasaki]
rrsagent, make log public
15:11:39 [Zakim]
-MaxF
15:11:40 [Zakim]
I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM has ended
15:11:41 [Zakim]
Attendees were Felix, [IPcaller], fyergeau, Ishida, [IBM], Mary, Maxf, Kazuyuki
15:12:11 [fsasaki]
present: Felix, Francois, Kazuyuki, Mary, Max, Richard
15:12:50 [fsasaki]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:12:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/04/11-i18ncore-minutes.html fsasaki
15:13:13 [maxf]
maxf has left #i18ncore
15:14:50 [Kazuyuki]
thank you so much for your clarification ;-)
15:14:56 [fsasaki]
np
15:15:00 [fsasaki]
I hope it helped
15:15:16 [Kazuyuki]
very much
15:16:11 [Kazuyuki]
bye
15:16:15 [fsasaki]
bye
15:16:38 [Kazuyuki]
Kazuyuki has left #i18ncore
15:23:16 [r12a]
r12a has left #i18ncore
15:26:59 [fsasaki]
zakim, bye
15:26:59 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #i18ncore
15:27:03 [fsasaki]
rrsagent, bye
15:27:03 [RRSAgent]
I see 9 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/11-i18ncore-actions.rdf :
15:27:03 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: all to look at the TAG issue (DONE) [1]
15:27:03 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/11-i18ncore-irc#T14-06-37
15:27:03 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: everybody to look at the mail about charmod+voicexml (DONE) [2]
15:27:03 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/11-i18ncore-irc#T14-07-47
15:27:03 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Felix ask Max if he can join next week's i18n core call (DONE) [3]
15:27:03 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/11-i18ncore-irc#T14-08-07
15:27:03 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Felix to write an IRI implementation report (DONE) [4]
15:27:03 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/11-i18ncore-irc#T14-08-51
15:27:03 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Felix to find out where the tests from Martin are located (ONGOING) [5]
15:27:03 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/11-i18ncore-irc#T14-09-02
15:27:03 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: felix to go trough LTLI within the next 2 weeks (DONE) [6]
15:27:03 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/11-i18ncore-irc#T14-10-01
15:27:03 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Francois to build a current issues list on charmod (PENDING) [7]
15:27:03 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/11-i18ncore-irc#T14-10-14
15:27:03 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Mary to look at WS Addr (DONE) [8]
15:27:03 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/11-i18ncore-irc#T14-10-24
15:27:03 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Mary will make the updates discussed in Mandelieu on ws i18n (ONGOING) [9]
15:27:03 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/11-i18ncore-irc#T14-11-40
15:27:13 [fsasaki]
fsasaki has left #i18ncore