See also: IRC log
<scribe> scribe: sandro
Christian: My objective is to
finalize discussion on use cases. If we can't do then, that we
need to agree on what to publish.
... We're obvsiously starting late. The agenda may need to
shift.
(long line at registration, although really only about 10 minutes.)
Christian: We might or might not
do the split sessions
... One of the objectives of this meeting is to have people
talk to each other, including in small groups. Thus the long
lunch break.
<mdean> can someone dial in to Zakim?
We seem to not have a speakerphone, Mike. Sorry. I'll try to figure it out during the break.
<mdean> ok - thanks
(We were supposed to have one, and are paying for one.)
Christian: Scribes! One scribe for short sessions, two for long. Not much more than one hour or maybe 1.5 hours.
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/ScribesList
First session scribe: Gary, then Giorgos Stamou
Attendance
* Sandro Hawke <sandro@w3.org> (W3C/MIT) : attending monday, tuesday
* Peter F. Patel-Schneider <pfps@inf.unibz.it> (Free University of Bozen-Bolzano) : attending monday, tuesday
* François Bry <bry@ifi.lmu.de> (REWERSE) : attending monday, tuesday
* Jos de Bruijn <jos.debruijn@deri.org> (DERI Innsbruck at the Leopold-Franzens-Universität Innsbruck, Austria) : attending monday, tuesday
* Igor Mozetic <igor.mozetic@ijs.si> (Jozef Stefan Institute) : attending monday, tuesday
* Axel Polleres <axel.polleres@uibk.ac.at> (DERI Innsbruck at the Leopold-Franzens-Universität Innsbruck, Austria) : attending monday, tuesday
* John Hall <john.hall@modelsys.com> (Object Management Group, Inc. (OMG)) : attending monday, tuesday
* Paula-Lavinia Patranjan <paula.patranjan@ifi.lmu.de> (REWERSE) : attending monday, tuesday
* Michael Sintek <sintek@dfki.uni-kl.de> (German Research Center for Artificial Intelligence (DFKI) Gmbh) : attending monday, tuesday
* Giorgos Stamou <gstam@softlab.ntua.gr> (Image Video & Multimedia Systems Laboratory of National Technical University of Athens (IVML-NTUA)) : attending monday, tuesday
* Hassan Ait-Kaci <hak@ilog.com> (ILOG, S.A.) : attending monday, tuesday
* Francis McCabe <frank.mccabe@us.fujitsu.com> (Fujitsu Limited) : attending monday, tuesday
(Frank)
* Jos De Roo <jos.deroo@agfa.com> (Agfa-Gevaert N. V.) : attending monday, tuesday
* Christian de Sainte Marie <csma@ilog.fr> (ILOG, S.A.) : attending monday, tuesday
* Gary Hallmark <gary.hallmark@oracle.com> (Oracle Corporation) : attending monday, tuesday
* Markus Krötzsch <mak@aifb.uni-karlsruhe.de> (Forschungszentrum Informatik (FZI)) : attending monday, tuesday
coming late: * Andreas Harth <andreas.harth@deri.org> (DERI Galway at the National University of Ireland, Galway, Ireland) : attending monday, tuesday
not here: * Sergio Tessaris <tessaris@inf.unibz.it> (Free University of Bozen-Bolzano) : attending monday, tuesday
* Allen Ginsberg <aginsberg@imc.mitre.org> (MITRE Corporation) : attending monday, tuesday
mistake: * Eric Miller <em@w3.org> (W3C/MIT) : attending monday, tuesday
* Uli Sattler <Ulrike.Sattler@manchester.ac.uk> (University of Manchester) : attending monday, tuesday
* Paul Vincent <paulvincent@fairisaac.com> (Fair Isaac Corporation) : attending monday, tuesday
* Michael Kifer <kifer@cs.sunysb.edu> (W3C Invited Experts) : attending monday, tuesday
* Donald Chapin <Donald.Chapin@btinternet.com> (Object Management Group, Inc. (OMG)) : attending monday, tuesday
* Deepali Khushraj <deepali.khushraj@nokia.com> (Nokia Corporation) : attending monday, tuesday
* Harold Boley <Harold.Boley@nrc-cnrc.gc.ca> (National Research Council Canada) : attending monday, tuesday
* Giorgos Stoilos <gstoil@image.ntua.gr> (Image Video & Multimedia Systems Laboratory of National Technical University of Athens (IVML-NTUA)) : attending monday, tuesday
Not coming: * Dieter Fensel <dieter.fensel@deri.ie> (DERI Galway at the National University of Ireland, Galway, Ireland) : attending monday, tuesday
* Darko Anicic <darko.anicic@deri.org> (DERI Innsbruck at the Leopold-Franzens-Universität Innsbruck, Austria) : attending monday, tuesday
* Mala Mehrotra <mm@pragati-inc.com> (Pragati Synergetic Research Inc.) : attending monday, tuesday
* Jeff Pan <pan@cs.man.ac.uk> (University of Manchester) : attending monday, tuesday
* Jeremy Carroll <Jeremy.Carroll@hp.com> (Hewlett Packard Company) : attending monday, tuesday
coming late: * Christopher Welty <cawelty@frontiernet.net> (IBM Corporation) : attending monday, tuesday
* Vassilis Tzouvaras
(not yet registered)
Observers:
* Christine Golbreich <Christine.Golbreich@univ-rennes1.fr> (<strong>not affiliated to a W3C Member</strong>) : attending monday, tuesday
(not here) Eric Miller
(not here) Danny Weitzner
(not here) * Thomas Roessler <roessler@w3.org> (W3C/ERCIM) : attending monday, tuesday
* Lee Feigenbaum <feigenbl@us.ibm.com> (IBM Corporation) : attending monday, tuesday
* Elias Torres <eliast@us.ibm.com> (IBM Corporation) : attending monday, tuesday
(not here) * Susan Lesch <lesch@w3.org> (W3C/MIT) : attending monday
(not here) * Andy Seaborne <andy.seaborne@hp.com> (Hewlett Packard Company) : attending monday, tuesday
(not here) * Fabien Gandon <Fabien.Gandon@sophia.inria.fr> (Institut National de Recherche en Informatique et en Automatique) : attending monday, tuesday
* Carine Bournez <carine@w3.org> (W3C/ERCIM) : attending monday, tuesday
* Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org> (W3C/ERCIM) : attending monday
* Alistair Miles <a.j.miles@rl.ac.uk> (Council for the Central Laboratory of the Research Councils (CCL)) : attending monday, tuesday
* Eric Prud'hommeaux <eric@w3.org> (W3C/ERCIM) : attending monday, tuesday
* Brian McBride
Attendees complete.
<mdean> Mike Dean on IRC and phone
<GaryHallmark> ScribeNick: GaryHallmark
<scribe> ScribeNick: GaryHallmark
christian: focus on the purpose
of rule interchange
... e.g. it could be compliance
... or negotiation to refine the rule
... or to extend a published ontology
<ericP> sandro, would you like me to chekc on the speaker phone?
christian: RIF could be used without interchange, e.g. persistence
<sandro> Sure, EricP, but coordinate with Carine, who might be checking as well.
<sandro> Christian: 1. Purpose of Publish/Interchange of Rule
<sandro> Christian: 2. Purpose of Translating the Rules into RIF
christian: look for gaps and overlaps in UCs
allen: would like OWL use cases
as a model for ours
... uses cases should drive design requirements but not be
over-analyzed
<sandro> +1 on Frank & Allen (don't worry about UC's being idiosyncratic -- just use them to drive Goals/Requirements.)
allen: use case names should catch people's interest
frank: look for fundamental drivers and issues rather than more cases
sandro: use cases should drive design decisions
<ericP> in the DAWG, use cases lead directly to requirements
<ericP> the two were cross-ref'd, which allowed us to drop redundant use cases
allen: now named business process
design
... rif would help redesign or improve biz process
frank: tried to make the case more compelling
<sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/UCR/Information_Integration
frank: driver: dynamic
integration of information
... explore synergy of biz processes and rules
<sandro> Uli: is this about integrating data (via rules), or integrating rules?
frank: about integrating rules, not using rules to integrate data
<sandro> Frank: integrating rules.
<sandro> Frank: We need access to business rules of supply chain partners.
francois: ruleset integration should be a central theme of several use cases
<sandro> Francois: "Integrating rule sets"
<sandro> Jeremy: HP wants integration of data!
<josb> +1 agree with Jeremy; RIF should support information integration
<sandro> Christian: Yes -- if this section turns into Ruleset Integration, we need data mapping somewhere else.
frank: Hendler argues that RIF is for rule interchange, not information integration
francois: rif is for both
information integration and rule set integration
... rule sets will need to be integrated sometime after they
exist
... because the rule sets are developed in parallel
<sandro> Christian: if each user does the data mapping rules on their own, ... that doesn't scale.
<sandro> ... I need to import that rules.
<sandro> Jeremy: If I can publish my mappings in a publically understanding format, then it *does* scale.
<sandro> ...: But Jena rules doesn't solve the problem -- we need RIF so people can publish the rules for re-use.
<sandro> Frank: Is RIF yet another rule language for describing mappings.
francois: porting rules is
hard
... but we can enable publishing
sandro: would like more concrete details about possible data mapping use case
<sandro> sandro: I specifically heard Frank say "We need access to business rules of supply chain partners" -- and I like that as a concrete, motivated use case
<sandro> sandro: And Jeremy seems to be motivated on data mapping.
frank: familiar with product that uses rules to map biz terms to IT term, but it doesn't involve rule exchange
<sandro> Jeremy: Is enterpirse information integration problem done in one giant leap (millions paid to SAP), or does one do it in a distributed small-steps manner? The latter requires publishing rules.
<sandro> sandro: Call that "Grassroots Data Integration"
<sandro> sandro: I'm hearing two use cases here : ruleset integration (eg for supply chain); grassroots data integration (eg vocabulary mapping business -to- IT vocabularies)
<sandro> "access to business rules of supply chain partners"
frank: supplier and customer relationships are different
<sandro> christian: do you need to execute the rules?
<sandro> frank: not clear
frank: i.e. the rules are not
aggregated
... relationships are dynamic - data may come from you or
partner, rules may be executed by you or partner
<sandro> portability vs publication
sandro: need to move to another use case
<sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/UCR/Decision_Support
<sandro> ScribeNick: deepalik
<sandro> Christian: 15 minutes on Decision Support use case
<sandro> ... note Leora is not here
<sandro> ... Decision Support -> Integrating Rules from Multiple Knowledge Sources for Decision Support
csma: key focus of use case is integrating rules from multiple knowledge sources for decision support
<MarkusK> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/UCR/Decision_Support
Uli Sattler: Uli Sattler: might" want to distinguish between interoperation and integration
<sandro> csma: will anyone argue for keeping the E-Learning use cases?
csma: this is clearly a use case of aggregation-- the E-learning use case scenario does not add value to this. Hence, might want to drop this
<josb> +1 on Sandro's comment; use case descriptions should be concise
this section needs some review to cover important points covered in straw poll comments
csma: what are the key dimensions of this use case?
<sandro> suggested: 2.2 Ruleset Integration for Medical Decision Support
<sandro> suggested: 2.* Interative User Training Via Reactive Rules
<sandro> Francois: Main title as one axies, subtitle as another axis -- doesn't really matter which is which.
Need to rename this section with maybe a subtitle.
<sandro> Uli: another heading: added value from RIF
<sandro> Francois: Give me an appplication based on Rules, and half a day, and I'll show you how you'll end up with rule interchange!
<sandro> +1
<josb> +1 agree with last comment Francois
<sandro> sandro: does the WG agree that aggregating rules for decision support -- eg for drug proscribing -- is in scope for us, something to do.
sandro: vote on who thinks that aggregating rules for decision support systems is in scope
<sandro> paul: are they cases where you do the integration by hand now?
<sandro> Christine: you need to aggregate onotologies (as in Charter use case) as well as rules.
<sandro> accessing and integrating rules from many sources to support decision -- is this a RIF Use Case?
<sandro> resolved: in scope
<sandro> Christian: different from Frank's case in that you're integrating the rules here.
<sandro> Hassan: Digest the rules.
different from integration use case is you take ownership on rules
<sandro> Gary: really want a few simple examples of rules in each use case!!
<sandro> (widely seconded)
2-3 people don't think it should be done
<sandro> why not: Peter -- examples could be another source of contention, or could be wrong, or could concentrate attention on things that don't matter.
<sandro> Peter: eg endless arguments about the service syntax.
<sandro> Allen: as long as it's clear, examples not needed. Might even be offputting.
Allen: Did not support it because it is not crucial to formalize them
Rules don't have to use a formal syntax-- it could be in natural language
<sandro> josb: rules can be in pseudocode
<sandro> josb: this is rule 1: (in english)
<sandro> Francois: be careful that people might read too much into examples -- like that this is the syntax we'll be using!
<sandro> (I wonder if each example could be captioned "Pseudo-code example")
mala: the interchange aspects are not brought out by examples.
csma: examples could be more like protocols (?)
<sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/ucr/diff-20060215-20060227.html
<Vassilis> \me, Hello
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.127 of Date: 2005/08/16 15:12:03 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/then/that/ Succeeded: s/(not here)// Succeeded: s/and/an/ Succeeded: s/an/a/ Succeeded: s/forus/focus/ Succeeded: s/persitance/persistence/ Succeeded: s/rule/ruleset/ Succeeded: s/someone/somewhere/ Succeeded: s/;/:/ Succeeded: s/might/Uli Sattler: might"/ Succeeded: s/might/Uli Sattler: might/ Succeeded: s/doctore/doctor/ Succeeded: s/doctor/E-learning use case/ Succeeded: s/Use/Rules/ Found Scribe: sandro Inferring ScribeNick: sandro Found ScribeNick: GaryHallmark Found ScribeNick: GaryHallmark Found ScribeNick: deepalik ScribeNicks: sandro, GaryHallmark, deepalik WARNING: No "Present: ... " found! Possibly Present: AxelPolleres Christian Christine Darko DaveReynolds Dave_Reynolds EliasT Francois Frank FrankMcCabe Gary GaryHallmark GiorgosStamou Harold Hassan JeffP JeremyCarroll JosDeRoo LeeF MalaMehrotra MarkusK Mike_Dean Observers P3 P4 PaulaP Peter ScribeNick Uli Vassilis aharth aliman allen bwm csma deepalik ericP igor ivan ivan_ jeremy joined josb mala mdean mistake msintek patranja paul rif sandro suggested tlr was You can indicate people for the Present list like this: <dbooth> Present: dbooth jonathan mary <dbooth> Present+ amy WARNING: No meeting title found! You should specify the meeting title like this: <dbooth> Meeting: Weekly Baking Club Meeting Got date from IRC log name: 27 Feb 2006 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2006/02/27-rif-minutes.html People with action items:[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]