See also: IRC log
<AndyS> zakim ??P1 is AndyS
<scribe> Scribe: LeeF
<ericP> oops
<DanC> record 13 Dec
APPROVED http://www.w3.org/2005/12/13-dawg-irc as true record of 13 Dec
RESOLVED to cancel 27 Dec
<DanC> 3Jan regrets JanneS
<ericP> 3Jan regrets EricP
<DanC> RESOLVED to cancel 3 Jan
<DanC> RESOLVED: to meet 10 Jan, JanneS to scribe
<DanC> PROPOSED: to adopt option C 'collapsed' from Jeen's msg of 13 Dec, elaborated 14 Dec, along with ammendment to drop sorting constraint from Lee
<DanC> RESOLVED, EricP abstaining.
<DanC> ACTION: Jeen to edit results format per C 'collapsed' ; drop sorting constraint [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action01]
<DanC> ACTION: Lee to review XSLT in results format update [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action02]
<DanC> ACTION: [DONE] DanC to notifty DAWG of WSDL response to our WSDL comments. PaulD 15 Nov. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action03]
<DanC> query by reference
<DanC> DanC: I gather there's support, modulo detail concerns
<DanC> AndyS: actually, I don't find sufficient motivation
ericP: would adding support for query by reference mean adding a use case in uc&r?
DanC: not necessarily
<scribe> ACTION: KendallC to propose revised WSDL descripton of SPARQL protocol [CONTINUES] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action04]
<scribe> ACTION: KC to review sparql-types for xs:any weirdness, w.r.t. WSDL 2.0 constraints [CONTINUES] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action05]
EliasT: I should have time to finish protocol test suite in the coming weeks
<DanC> ACTION: EliasT to recruit somebody to try out the protocol test harness, perhaps from the -comments list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action06]
<scribe> ACTION: Jeen try to reproduces EliasT's protocol testing results [CONTINUES] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action07]
<DanC> seen opera, govtrack http://esw.w3.org/topic/DawgShows
<DanC> DanC: when was last release? 14 September 2005. just over 3 monts. ripe for another.
<DanC> more when Kendall returns.
<DanC> Zakimm, close this item
<scribe> ACTION: KendallC to add a modified version of http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#security to protocol editor's draft, as well as a pointer to the section in rq23 itself [CONTINUES] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action08]
<scribe> ACTION: KendallC to remove uses of "my" in URIs in protocol spec [CONTINUES] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action09]
<DanC> andy on construct *
<Zakim> ericP, you wanted to mention annotea experience
<DanC> noodling on poll options: (a) action ppl to sketch tests (pref EricP, JeenB) (b) decide it's not worth the bother, and that it should wait for rules, perhaps
<SteveH> steve
jeen: SeRQL does Andy's option 2 - ???
(missed the extra explanation, sorry)
ericP: prefers to leave it as LC
patH: no opionion; +.5 A
EliasT: +1 b
<jeen> (lee, yeah, that's what it does: just compile a single graph (without context information) from the union of all graph patterns)
(thanks, jeen)
<AndyS> ARQ used to do sort of 1-ish and 2-ish - took it out when "CONSTRUCT *" removed
JanneS: +1 a , needs more study
AndyS: +.5 a
DanC: +1 b (schedule grounds)
jeen: +1 a
<SteveH> +0.5 b
ericP: +1 b
<SteveH> (no voice)
SteveH: +.5 b
JosD: +1 b
<DanC> PROPOSED: to leave out CONSTRUCT *, as the cost of delaying the SPARQL spec to work out the design details, and the risk of conflict with rules designs, outweighs the convenience of adding it
ericP: convenience method for reproducing query is at odds with if you have a graph with non-RDF knowledge, finding a way to incorporate it as RDF in the result
RESOLVED
<DanC> ACTION: AndyS to respond re CONSTRUCT * [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action10]
<scribe> DONE: ACTION PatH: suggest where "simple entailment" should go, re rdfSemantics. progress/done -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/0340.html
AndyS: thinks that everyone is in agreement in the non-told-bnodes case of rdfSemantics
<DanC> postponed told bnodes 12 July http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#bnodeRef
AndyS: working group has decided to postpone bnode issue http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#bnodeRef
DanC: all design options i can see exceed our charter. i'd need a strong use case and requirement to consider this...
AndyS: URI solution has a drawback -- dealing with someone else's date who has, for example, a lot of lists in it
DanC: Understood -- our responsibility is the ?var part that gets to the list; RDF Core's job for the rest of it
patH: disagreement with Sergio over whether querying an axiom against an empty graph which supports RDF-S entailment should succeed (patH - no, Sergio - yes)
<SteveH> hard to say
<AndyS> SELECT * { ?s ?p ?o }
<DanC> rdfs:Class rdfs:subClassOf rdfs:Resource # an RDFS axiom
ASK {rdfs:Class rdfs:subClassOf ?x}
true or false?
against an empty graph
<SteveH> 3store doesnt allow rdfs queries against empty graphs, it adds the axiomatic triples when you create the kb
<AndyS> So 3Store just does not have empty graphs? - i.e. query is always against the logical closure
JosD: in this case it will be empty but if you ask about rdf:containerMembershipProperty than you would get an answer (?? couldn't hear clearly)
<AndyS> Thx - that's clear. The name-of-logical-closure seems relevant here.
<DanC> SELECT ?P WHERE { ?V rdf:type rdfs:ContainerMembershipProperty } # pat asks JosD, against empty graph
(thanks, DanC)
<ericP> PatH, does this affect both FROM empty:graph ASK {?s ?p ?o} and FROM rdfs:closure(empty:graph) ASK {?s ?p ?o}
JosD: If you ask about a particular rdfs:ContainerMembershipProperty then you will get an answer
patH: Debate is only about variable bindings
AndyS: sounds like a feature to me
<JosD> ELECT ?P WHERE { ?P rdf:type rdfs:ContainerMembershipProperty } no answer
<AndyS> ELECT? Update proposal? :-)
<JosD> :)
DanC: Does this design postpone OWL Disjunction issue?
<DanC> ... in a tasteful way?
AndyS: I think it allows OWL Disjunction...
patH: Allows the little house example when extended to OWL entailment
<ericP> ASK { [] rdf:type rdfs:ContainerMembershipProperty }
<ericP> ASK { ?V rdf:type rdfs:ContainerMembershipProperty }
ericP: first one is true, second is false?
patH: yes -- there's nothing to bind ?V to in the seccond case
ericP: are you wrong if those aren't your answers?
AndyS: No, then you'd only be using simple entailment [not RDF-S entailment]
ericP: are we acting against the virtual graph?
<ericP> ASK { [] [] [] }
patH: we're acting against an intelligent closure -- doesn't add in infinitely many unnecessary triples
<DanC> PROPOSED: that http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/ 1.596 addresses rdfSemantics, and that it's sufficient to postpone owlDisjunction, contingent on acceptance (including silence) by UMD and Free University of Bozen-Bolzano by this Friday
patH: 10 01ASK { [] [] [] } fails with simple entailment, succeeds with any entailment that adds axiomatic triples
<DanC> PROPOSED: that http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/ 1.596 addresses rdfSemantics, and that it's sufficient to postpone owlDisjunction, contingent on acceptance (including silence) by UMD and Free University of Bozen-Bolzano by this Friday. ACTION PatH, DanC to respond to PFPS, Horrocks, et. al.
patH: little house example is a counter-example to the idea of using OWL closures. works with OWL entailment
DanC: ...at which point we're no longer in the SPARQL spec
<AndyS> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#BasicGraphPatternMatching
<DanC> PROPOSED: that http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/ 1.596 (@@NO TOLD BNODES options) addresses rdfSemantics, and that it's sufficient to postpone owlDisjunction, contingent on acceptance (including silence) by UMD and Free University of Bozen-Bolzano by this Friday. ACTION PatH, DanC to respond to PFPS, Horrocks, et. al.
<ericP> is [] an alluded-to bNode?
<DanC> PROPOSED: that http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/ 1.596 (section 2, @@NO TOLD BNODES options) addresses rdfSemantics, and that it's sufficient to postpone owlDisjunction, contingent on acceptance (including silence) by UMD and Free University of Bozen-Bolzano by this Friday. ACTION PatH, DanC to respond to PFPS, Horrocks, et. al.
<DanC> PROPOSED: that http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/ 1.596 (section 2, @@NO TOLD BNODES options) addresses rdfSemantics, and that it's sufficient to postpone owlDisjunction, contingent on acceptance (including silence) by UMD and Free University of Bozen-Bolzano in a week (by 27 Dec). ACTION PatH, DanC to respond to PFPS, Horrocks, et. al.
<SteveH> yes
<EliasT> second
<DanC> so RESOLVED.
RESOLVED
<AndyS> ACTION: AndyS to Revise rq23 to reflect the decison (remove told bnode text) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action11]
<scribe> DONE: ACTION PatH: to get Enrico's feedback on PatH's proposal to stick to the Last Call design
<DanC> ACTION: DanC to with PatH to respond to PFPS, Horrocks, et. al. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action12]
<scribe> ACTION: [WITHDRAWN] Bijan to take a pass through the editor's draft, listing what will change with the new semantics understanding, and what will not [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action13]
<scribe> ACTION: [WITHDRAWN] Enrico to take a pass through the editor's draft, listing what will change with the new semantics understanding ... [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action14]
<scribe> WITHDRAWN: ACTION Bijan: estimate impact of "abstract syntax entailment" etc. on WG test harness
<DanC> PROPOSED: to postpone http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#update
<SteveH> +1
<DanC> so RESOLVED.
<DanC> anybody seen http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#nameValueForms
<DanC> andy on double/decimal tests
<SteveH> html should be updated
<AndyS> ta
<DanC> revision 1.2 date: 2005/12/13 14:14:56DataAccess/tests/data/ExprEquals/query-eq-graph-2.rq
<SteveH> yes, but i think i fail them
<ericP> agenda request: f2f at TP
<scribe> ACTION: [DONE] AndyS to Make the decimal/double test changes for later WG approval -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/0335.html [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action15]
<scribe> ACTION: [CONTINUES] EricP to fix test schema to match manifest with negative tests [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/27-dawg-minutes.html#action16 ]
<scribe> ACTION: [CONTINUES] DanC to follow up re optional test based on op:dateTime triple [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action17]
<scribe> CONTINUES: ACTION DaveB: add to test suite the temperature case from comment on truth tables in commentor's message -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2005Aug/0030.html
<JanneS> wed+thu same time 1430utc works for me - the earlier the better. Have to go for tonight. cheers
cheers, JanneS
<DanC> PROPOSED: to have telcons Thursdays, 11amET 5, 12, 19, 26 Jan
<SteveH> whats that in utc?
<DanC> PROPOSED: to have telcons Thursdays, 11amET/1600UTC 5, 12, 19, 26 Jan
<SteveH> i will be 15mins late
and keep Tuesdays at 14:30UTC?
<DanC> yes, and keep 14:30 UTC
<EliasT> I can too..
<DanC> RESOLVED: to have telcons Thursdays, 11amET/1600UTC for 1 hour, 5, 12, 19, 26 Jan, and to keep Tuesdays at 14:30UTC, 60 to 90 minutes (hoping for more like 60)
<SteveH> yes to meeting
<AndyS> and discuss LC comments. LC may be closed by then.
<DanC> possible goals: * organizing CR test work * outreach, dev support * future work, postponed issues (overlap with rules)
<DanC> TP2006 Working Groups f2f and Room Allocation [ACL?]
<EliasT> me too
<SteveH> y
<DanC> (andy, I'm having serious 2nd thoughts about whether to have a 2nd last call or not)
<DanC> PROPOSED: to meet 2-3Mar 2006 in the W3C Technical Plenary in the south of France [noting this goes beyond current 31 Jan 2006 charter duration]
<AndyS> (DanC, that's cool)
<DanC> so RESOLVED.
<DanC> ADJOURN
<AndyS> Horray! #rdfSemantics
<SteveH> bye
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.127 of Date: 2005/08/16 15:12:03 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/nothing/noting/ Found Scribe: LeeF Inferring ScribeNick: LeeF WARNING: No "Present: ... " found! Possibly Present: AndyS CONTINUES DanC EliasT IPcaller JanneS JosD LeeF P3 P6 PROPOSED PatH SouriD SteveH aaaa aabb ericP inserted jeen rdfs You can indicate people for the Present list like this: <dbooth> Present: dbooth jonathan mary <dbooth> Present+ amy Regrets: Miller Clark WARNING: No meeting title found! You should specify the meeting title like this: <dbooth> Meeting: Weekly Baking Club Meeting Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/weekly-agenda Got date from IRC log name: 20 Dec 2005 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html People with action items: andys danc eliast ericp jeen kc kendallc lee try WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]