14:55:55 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #swbp
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14:57:01 <RalphS> Meeting: SWBPD RDF-in-HTML TF
14:59:45 <benadida> benadida has joined #swbp
15:00:13 <RalphS> Chair: Ben
15:00:52 <Zakim> SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)10:00AM has now started
15:00:57 <RalphS> Previous: 2005-11-15 http://www.w3.org/2005/11/15-swbp-minutes
15:00:57 <Zakim> +Ben_Adida
15:01:07 <RalphS> rrsagent, please make this log public
15:01:56 <Zakim> +Ralph
15:02:12 <RalphS> Regrets: Mark
15:03:24 <RalphS> Regrets+ Steven
15:03:59 <RalphS> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Nov/0031.html Mark's comments
15:05:15 <benadida> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2005-current-issues
15:06:34 <RalphS> Ralph: do you have a use case for plain literals?
15:06:39 <RalphS> Ben: Jeremy suggested this
15:06:49 <RalphS> ... he implied it had been done before
15:07:30 <RalphS> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Nov/0025.html
15:07:39 <benadida> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Oct/0057.html
15:07:43 <benadida> issue #8
15:09:44 <RalphS> -> http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-rdf-concepts-20040210/#dfn-plain-literal Plain Literals in RDF/XML
15:10:34 <RalphS> Ben: this feature allows you to avoid some data duplication
15:13:26 <Zakim> +??P2
15:13:28 <RalphS> zakim, ??p2 is Jeremy
15:13:28 <Zakim> +Jeremy; got it
15:14:33 <RalphS> Ralph: do we have a strong requirement for plain literals -- the concatenation example in the issues list?
15:15:09 <RalphS> Jeremy: the goal was to have inline content just once and many RDF Schemas would expect this text to be a plain literal
15:16:14 <RalphS> ... plain literals would be more natural to the RDF Community than XML literals
15:17:19 <RalphS> Ben: the idea of concatenating the content of the child elements also appears in Ian Davis' Embeddable RDF proposal
15:18:00 <RalphS> Jeremy: it's appealing to invent a pseudo-datatype in our syntax but it would have special syntactic rules
15:18:10 <RalphS> ... special rules would be annoying from an implementation point of view
15:19:02 <RalphS> Ben: it feels to me like a small enough impact on the syntax to be worth the positive result
15:20:30 <RalphS> ... see 5.1.2.1 in RDF/A syntax
15:21:34 <RalphS> -> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2005-rdfa-syntax#id0x056eca88 5.1.2.1 Literal from string value of meta
15:22:35 <RalphS> Ben: if 5.1.2.1 stays then we'd have to add a special datatype to make plain literals
15:22:54 <RalphS> Jeremy: the complication of a special datatype is that plain literals are not a datatype
15:23:01 <RalphS> ... second complication related to xml:lang
15:23:14 <RalphS> ... in 5.1.2.1 if there were an xml:lang attribute it would be discarded
15:23:23 <RalphS> ... as typed literals do not have language information
15:24:00 <RalphS> ... it becomes horrendously complicated in 5.1.2.1 if we add plain literal support and there are multiple xml:lang attributes
15:24:24 <RalphS> ... we'd likely need to specify that xml:lang must be discarded if there is contradictory data
15:27:37 <RalphS> Ralph: language handling in literals was a very contentious issue for internationalization
15:27:50 <RalphS> ... we should approach this area with caution
15:28:00 <RalphS> Jeremy: xsd:string does not contain language information
15:28:49 <RalphS> ... in an XHTML document we have textual data that is natural language data and may be marked up with language information
15:29:25 <RalphS> ... if in the process of constructing metadata from this -- converting from the presentation format to the RDF format -- we loose language information in a way that is cavalier, I would expect the I18N people to complain
15:29:45 <RalphS> ... I don't think it is cavalier to discard language information on data that is explicitly typed
15:30:22 <RalphS> ... e.g. when explicitly datatyped as datatype="xsd:string"
15:30:57 <RalphS> ... if we have a plain literal pseudo-datatype then it would be cavalier to discard language information
15:31:21 <RalphS> ... so I think plain literals should behave differently from typed literals even though the syntax is similar
15:32:21 <RalphS> ... XHTML2 is intended to be a means to transport natural language text
15:33:01 <RalphS> ... so it may be more important to preserve language information in XHTML2 literals than in XML literals
15:33:52 <RalphS> Ben: so issue 13 is really just a plain literal issue and I've been generalizing it
15:34:44 <RalphS> Jeremy: the issue list should include discussion of discarding xml:lang
15:35:10 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben update issues list to add discarding of xml:lang information
15:35:53 <RalphS> Jeremy: xml:lang attributes on child elements that contradict xml:lang on the parent create a problem
15:36:01 <RalphS> ... we'll have to make an arbitrary choice
15:36:23 <RalphS> ... whatever choice we make isn't likely to cause much fuss
15:37:19 <RalphS> Ben: what problems would we introduce if we defined a pseudo-type
15:37:29 <RalphS> ... ?
15:37:40 <RalphS> Jeremy: confusion if someone attempted to use that pseudo-type in RDF/XML
15:39:22 <benadida> RalphS: I'd like to see a use case for this
15:39:30 <RalphS> <dc:title><b>This</b> is a book</dc:title>
15:40:04 <RalphS> <meta property="dc:title"><b>This</b> is a book</meta>
15:42:00 <RalphS> Jeremy: in terms of document size, specifying the pseudo-type will be just as much space as repeating the text
15:42:46 <RalphS> ... different argument is that RDF tools should support natural language information expressed in XHTML2 documents
15:43:41 <benadida> <meta xml:lang="en" property="dc:title"><b>This</b> is a book</meta>
15:45:25 <RalphS> Jeremy: xml:lang attribute on meta would be ignored under current RDF/A syntax spec
15:45:51 <RalphS> ... but an xml:lang on <b> should be preserved
15:46:32 <RalphS> ... the XML literal is required to be canonicalized
15:46:53 <RalphS> ... via the XML exclusive canonicalization algorithm
15:48:08 <RalphS> Ben: seems to be an oversight if xml:lang on the element containing a property attribute is ignored
15:48:20 <RalphS> Jeremy: not an oversight; there's no place to put this language information
15:49:26 <RalphS> ... consider the example in issue 13; the XML literal has 4 children; two element nodes and two text nodes
15:49:54 <RalphS> ... on the element nodes we can hang language information but we'd have to invent some new node type to hang language on the text
15:50:43 <RalphS> ... the decision to drop xml:lang information was contentious in the RDF Core WG
15:51:07 <RalphS> ... but the resolution relied on saying that with an RDF/XML document, RDF could specify the handling of xml:lange
15:51:27 <RalphS> ... this resolution would not carry over to an XHTML document
15:52:37 <RalphS> ... during RDF Core deliberations I proposed a design in which XML literals had a wrapper node but that design was rejected by the WG
15:53:32 <RalphS> Ralph: yeah, we need to treat XHTML document content with more respect
15:54:17 <RalphS> Jeremy: I prefer the option of adding spans
15:56:15 <RalphS> [Jeremy proposed that option in his point 7 of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Oct/0057.html ]
15:57:21 <RalphS> Jeremy: it would be a bad thing to encourage RDF apps to use just xsd:string
15:57:57 <RalphS> ... when extracting metadata from XHTML2, we should encourage preservation of language informatoin
15:58:03 <RalphS> s/toin/tion/
15:59:03 <RalphS> Ben: so tentatively we'll say 'no' to issue 13
16:00:04 <RalphS> Topic: issue 9. Making link content clickable
16:00:12 <RalphS> Ben: I'd like to make this kind of link clickable
16:00:51 <RalphS> ... Mark agreed but proposed some additions
16:01:55 <RalphS> Ralph: seems reasonable but I would leave this to the HTML WG to decide
16:02:05 <RalphS> ... I would not want to strongly advocate either way from an RDF perspective
16:02:13 <RalphS> ... you're asking for behavior from XHTML2 processors
16:02:22 <RalphS> Ben: do we see any complications?
16:03:23 <RalphS> Ralph: making link act a lot like anchors?  I can't see a complication but I've never written a browser
16:03:43 <RalphS> Jeremy: in XHTML2 anchor is more superfluous; it's the presence of href that matters
16:05:00 <RalphS> Ben: if the Task Force does not express an opinon we give up one of our requirements
16:05:19 <RalphS> ... in the current XHTML2 syntax the example in issue 9 does not make a clickable link
16:05:39 <RalphS> ... this example is something we might want to express
16:05:56 <RalphS> Ralph: regrets if we meet next week (29 Nov)
16:06:08 <RalphS> Jeremy: I expect to be available on the 29th
16:06:25 <Zakim> -Ralph
16:06:27 <Zakim> -Jeremy
16:06:28 <Zakim> SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)10:00AM has ended
16:06:29 <Zakim> Attendees were Ben_Adida, Ralph, Jeremy
16:06:35 <RalphS> rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:06:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/11/22-swbp-minutes.html RalphS
16:06:51 <benadida> benadida has left #swbp
17:33:49 <Zakim> Zakim has left #swbp
17:57:19 <RalphS> rrsagent, bye
17:57:19 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2005/11/22-swbp-actions.rdf :
17:57:19 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben update issues list to add discarding of xml:lang information [1]
17:57:19 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/11/22-swbp-irc#T15-35-10