IRC log of swbp on 2005-09-20
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 13:56:01 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #swbp
- 13:56:02 [RRSAgent]
- logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/09/20-swbp-irc
- 13:56:08 [RalphS]
- Meeting: SWBPD RDF-in-XHTML TF
- 13:58:18 [Steven]
- Steven has joined #swbp
- 14:00:36 [Zakim]
- SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)10:00AM has now started
- 14:00:44 [Zakim]
- +Ralph
- 14:02:00 [Steven]
- zakim, dial steven-617
- 14:02:00 [Zakim]
- ok, Steven; the call is being made
- 14:02:01 [Zakim]
- +Steven
- 14:06:16 [Zakim]
- +??P6
- 14:06:32 [MarkB_]
- MarkB_ has joined #swbp
- 14:06:43 [Steven]
- zakim, ? is Jeremy
- 14:06:43 [Zakim]
- +Jeremy; got it
- 14:07:17 [Zakim]
- +CraigN
- 14:07:29 [RalphS]
- zakim, craig is really MarkB
- 14:07:29 [Zakim]
- +MarkB; got it
- 14:08:11 [RalphS]
- zakim, who's on the call?
- 14:08:11 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Ralph, Steven, Jeremy, MarkB
- 14:08:46 [RalphS]
- Topic: Convene, Review records
- 14:08:48 [jjc]
- jjc has joined #swbp
- 14:11:11 [RalphS]
- Ralph: only TF participants who are WG participants are _expected_ to attend the Galway f2f but I expect that if Mark and Steven were interested in attending we wouldl make them welcome
- 14:11:32 [RalphS]
- Previous: 2005-08-16 http://www.w3.org/2005/08/16-swbp-minutes.html
- 14:11:34 [RalphS]
- Chair: Ralph
- 14:12:45 [RalphS]
- Topic: Issues walkthrough
- 14:12:58 [RalphS]
- -> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2005-current-issues issues list
- 14:13:44 [RalphS]
- -- QNames in href and about
- 14:14:07 [RalphS]
- Steven: add bnodes issue to current-issues
- 14:14:47 [RalphS]
- ... from Hypertext CG, the suggestion came (from Bert Bos perhaps) to invent a URN to represent QNames
- 14:15:06 [RalphS]
- Mark: we discussed this before. IPTC folk were not impressed by this solution
- 14:15:20 [RalphS]
- ... IPTC wants to keep the identifiers as short as possible
- 14:15:36 [RalphS]
- ... ideally they'd like to be able to carry forward their current identifiers unchanged
- 14:16:12 [RalphS]
- ... ease-of-use is the foremost concern
- 14:16:58 [RalphS]
- Steven: how can we know what really will be barriers to adoption?
- 14:17:29 [RalphS]
- Mark: we'd need to register a naming authority for URN
- 14:17:41 [RalphS]
- Steven: could do urn:iptc:...
- 14:19:03 [RalphS]
- Ralph: so the RDF community would like IPTC to run a resolution service that essentially reinvents the http: resolution service
- 14:19:16 [RalphS]
- Jeremy: there would also be an issue with name collision
- 14:19:29 [RalphS]
- ... qnames allow relatively long URIs to be used in a concise way
- 14:19:55 [RalphS]
- ... whereas URN or any other URI scheme has to deal with the fact that you're sharing a global identifier space hence URIs need to be long
- 14:20:35 [RalphS]
- Mark: I came to the conclusion that we shouldn't touch qnames; that it's naughtly to use them in this way to represent every possible URI
- 14:21:19 [RalphS]
- ... so rather than trying to make URIs and QNames co-exist in the same attribute and to loosen the syntax constraints on QNames, I proposed a new datatype CURI -- conmpact URI
- 14:21:40 [RalphS]
- ... doesn't make any clames to be like a QName
- 14:21:50 [RalphS]
- ... have discussed this with IPTC and they are supportive
- 14:22:12 [RalphS]
- ... CURI syntax similar to common Wiki usage
- 14:22:56 [RalphS]
- ... we would need two attributes to support such a mechanism; i.e. not squeeze both URI and QName into a single attribute
- 14:24:03 [Steven]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Jul/0019.html
- 14:25:28 [RalphS]
- Ralph: has this proposal been discussed in any other forum?
- 14:25:49 [RalphS]
- Steven: no, the HTML WG would likely think it outside their scope
- 14:25:54 [RalphS]
- ... it could go to the Hypertext CG
- 14:26:40 [RalphS]
- ... Bert Bos' comment came when I mentioned the CURI idea
- 14:26:54 [RalphS]
- Jeremy: URNs do involve some sort of registry
- 14:27:44 [RalphS]
- ... a compact URI scheme could have a short scheme component followed by a string to be substituted according to some application context
- 14:27:57 [RalphS]
- ... could give the power of QNames without the syntactic overhead of it being an XML thing
- 14:28:17 [RalphS]
- ... feels do-able but it would be a stretch to get a new URI scheme
- 14:28:40 [RalphS]
- Steven: CURI doesn't propose a new URI scheme but rather a new datatype that is interpreted in a new way to produce a URI
- 14:29:18 [RalphS]
- Mark: CURI doesn't solve the problem of making URIs and QNames coexist
- 14:30:41 [RalphS]
- ... I'd like to see CURI along with square brackets used
- 14:30:57 [RalphS]
- ... '[ ]' would denote CURIs so that legacy code stays the same
- 14:31:24 [RalphS]
- Steven: perhaps this could be added in XHTML2; we're in control of our own datatypes
- 14:31:33 [RalphS]
- ... as long as URIs are a subset it is backwards compatible
- 14:32:11 [RalphS]
- ... and we add an interpretation rule for the attribute value enclosed in [..]
- 14:32:31 [RalphS]
- Mark: there may be a precedent for something like this; an attribute that can take one of 2 values
- 14:32:54 [RalphS]
- ... IPTC might not be happy even with square brackets
- 14:33:06 [RalphS]
- Jeremy: could do just a leading character, e.g. '^'
- 14:33:58 [RalphS]
- Mark: note that a CURI starting with a ':' is one without string substitution, so any URI becomes a CURI with a ':' prefix
- 14:34:27 [RalphS]
- Steven: as long as old content looks the same and is interpreted the same we can add rules for new syntax
- 14:34:45 [RalphS]
- Jeremy: all the URI schemes in the registry could be defined as builtins
- 14:35:11 [RalphS]
- ... any new URI schemes could be required to follow additional contraints
- 14:35:36 [jjc]
- xmlns:skype="skype:"
- 14:36:04 [RalphS]
- Steven: I think we're best-off if we say only that new content is indicated in a different way
- 14:36:24 [RalphS]
- Jeremy: I've recently been testing URI code and have found that it is difficult to write an illegal URI
- 14:36:52 [RalphS]
- ... it's surprisingly tricky to break the URI syntax
- 14:37:42 [RalphS]
- Mark: [our product] uses '{}' in some URIs and only recently I discovered a URI parser that throws these out
- 14:40:07 [RalphS]
- ... if we went with Jeremy's leading-character proposal it could be viewed as a new class of URI schemes
- 14:40:39 [RalphS]
- Jeremy: no, better to make the leading character indicate datatype
- 14:42:44 [RalphS]
- Ralph: do you think IPTC would be more receptive to this leading-character proposal than to additional attributes?
- 14:42:48 [RalphS]
- Mark: perhaps so
- 14:42:48 [Steven]
- I think the colon looks good as initial character: href=":iptc:12345"
- 14:43:02 [Steven]
- It also suggests an empty scheme
- 14:46:52 [jjc]
- ":iptc:12345" is not a URI and hence is appropriate as a compact URI format
- 14:47:03 [RalphS]
- Mark: looking at the examples in my 19 July email, the CURI proposal effectively codifies some existing practice
- 14:47:21 [RalphS]
- ... whereas a new leading character is new practice
- 14:48:04 [RalphS]
- ... e.g. anyone who uses joseki will be comfortable with joseki: being interpreted as a substitution
- 14:49:30 [RalphS]
- Jeremy: I'm not advocating leading-character versus surrounding '[ ]
- 14:49:45 [RalphS]
- ... strongly; just describing alternatives
- 14:50:03 [Zakim]
- This conference is scheduled to end in 10 minutes; all ports must be freed
- 14:51:30 [RalphS]
- -- bnodes
- 14:51:35 [Steven]
- Topic: Bnodes
- 14:52:09 [RalphS]
- Jeremy: adopting the direction of the CURI idea; we could say that '_' is one of those schemes that denotes bnodes
- 14:52:21 [RalphS]
- Mark: we still need to identify the node
- 14:52:33 [Steven]
- s/Topic: Bnodes//
- 14:52:52 [RalphS]
- Jeremy: the ID suffices to identify the bnode
- 14:53:38 [jjc]
- :_:1 vs [_:1]
- 14:54:11 [Steven]
- I think href=":_:foo" looks fine
- 14:54:56 [MarkB_]
- I think it looks too much like a 'scheme'.
- 14:55:01 [RalphS]
- ACTION: JJC to review rdf concepts and fragments
- 14:55:01 [RalphS]
- [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action10]
- 14:55:02 [Zakim]
- This conference is scheduled to end in 5 minutes; all ports must be freed
- 14:56:05 [jjc]
- Jeremy said that rdf:about and rdf:href with bnode ":_:aa" is sufficient
- 14:56:07 [RalphS]
- -- continued
- 14:56:44 [RalphS]
- ACTION: Mark to check edge cases of inheritance in RDF/A
- 14:56:44 [RalphS]
- [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action06]
- 14:56:55 [RalphS]
- -- continues
- 14:57:02 [RalphS]
- ACTION: All take a serious look at Mark's [3]bnode proposal summary
- 14:57:02 [RalphS]
- [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action07]
- 14:57:09 [RalphS]
- -- continues
- 14:57:15 [RalphS]
- ACTION: Ben to put together the "ACID" test for XHTML2 RDF/A
- 14:57:15 [RalphS]
- [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action02]
- 14:57:18 [RalphS]
- -- continues
- 14:58:02 [Zakim]
- This conference is scheduled to end in 2 minutes; all ports must be freed
- 14:58:58 [RalphS]
- Mark: IPTC has a big meeting the end of October (week ending 29th)
- 14:59:02 [Zakim]
- This conference is scheduled to end in 1 minute; all ports must be freed
- 14:59:08 [RalphS]
- ... they'll be discussing their metadata syntax there
- 14:59:21 [RalphS]
- ... I have a deadline of next Monday to produce a new RDF/A draft
- 14:59:23 [jjc]
- http://www.iptc.org/pages/index.php
- 14:59:27 [Steven]
- 24 - 27 Oct 2005 IPTC Autumn Meeting in Milan (Italy)
- 15:00:03 [Zakim]
- This conference is scheduled to end now; all ports must be freed immediately
- 15:00:04 [Zakim]
- The time reserved for this conference has been exceeded. 6 ports must be freed
- 15:00:36 [RalphS]
- Ralph: can you share that document with the TF?
- 15:01:48 [RalphS]
- next meeting: 27 Sep, 1400 UTC
- 15:01:49 [Zakim]
- -Jeremy
- 15:01:51 [Zakim]
- -Steven
- 15:01:52 [Zakim]
- -MarkB
- 15:01:52 [Zakim]
- -Ralph
- 15:01:53 [Zakim]
- SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)10:00AM has ended
- 15:01:57 [Zakim]
- Attendees were Ralph, Steven, Jeremy, CraigN, MarkB
- 15:02:20 [Steven]
- but not CraigN
- 15:02:37 [RalphS]
- [I thought I'd fixed that bug in Zakim]
- 15:03:10 [RalphS]
- rrsagent, please draft minutes
- 15:03:10 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/09/20-swbp-minutes.html RalphS
- 15:03:18 [RalphS]
- rrsagent, please make this record public
- 15:03:30 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #swbp
- 15:03:34 [RRSAgent]
- I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/20-swbp-actions.rdf :
- 15:03:34 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: JJC to review rdf concepts and fragments [1]
- 15:03:34 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/20-swbp-irc#T14-55-01
- 15:03:34 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Mark to check edge cases of inheritance in RDF/A [2]
- 15:03:34 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/20-swbp-irc#T14-56-44
- 15:03:34 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: All take a serious look at Mark's [3]bnode proposal summary [3]
- 15:03:34 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/20-swbp-irc#T14-57-02
- 15:03:34 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Ben to put together the "ACID" test for XHTML2 RDF/A [4]
- 15:03:34 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/20-swbp-irc#T14-57-15