14:36:33 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ws-desc
14:36:33 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/09/15-ws-desc-irc
14:36:39 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #ws-desc
14:36:48 <Marsh> Zakim, this will be WS
14:36:48 <Zakim> "WS" matches I18N_Core_WG(WS-I18N)11:00AM, and WS_DescWG()11:00AM, Marsh
14:37:00 <Marsh> Zakim, this will be Desc
14:37:00 <Zakim> ok, Marsh; I see WS_DescWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 23 minutes
14:37:10 <Marsh> RRSAgent, set log member
14:39:09 <Marsh> I will probably be about 5 min late...
14:54:22 <Allen> Allen has joined #ws-desc
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14:57:52 <Zakim> WS_DescWG()11:00AM has now started
14:57:59 <Zakim> +Bijan_Parsia
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14:59:23 <Zakim> +??P3
14:59:34 <TonyR> zakim, ??p3 is me
14:59:34 <Zakim> +TonyR; got it
14:59:53 <Zakim> +Amelia_Lewis
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15:01:01 <Zakim> +JacekK
15:01:20 <Zakim> +Allen_Brookes
15:01:45 <Zakim> +T_Jordahl
15:01:53 <Zakim> +Charlton_Barreto
15:02:05 <Tomj> Tomj has joined #ws-desc
15:02:17 <Zakim> +A_Ryman
15:02:23 <Arthur> Arthur has joined #ws-desc
15:02:48 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
15:03:00 <Zakim> +Hugo
15:03:05 <Roberto> Roberto has joined #ws-desc
15:03:37 <Zakim> + +1.415.268.aaaa
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15:04:23 <Zakim> +??P29
15:04:40 <pauld> zakim, P29 is me
15:04:40 <Zakim> sorry, pauld, I do not recognize a party named 'P29'
15:04:50 <Zakim> +GlenD
15:04:53 <pauld> zakim, ??P29 is probably me
15:04:53 <Zakim> +pauld?; got it
15:06:13 <pauld_> pauld_ has joined #ws-desc
15:07:11 <Zakim> +Jonathan_Marsh
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15:08:03 <Zakim> +??P6
15:08:07 <GlenD> Meeting: WSDL Concall
15:08:11 <GlenD> Chair: Jonathan Marsh
15:08:14 <GlenD> Scribe: GlenD
15:08:20 <Marsh> Zakim, ? is Umit
15:08:20 <Zakim> +Umit; got it
15:08:32 <GlenD> Approval of minutes
15:08:34 <GlenD> APPROVED
15:08:43 <GlenD> Action Items
15:09:01 <uyalcina> zakim, mute Umit
15:09:01 <Zakim> Umit should now be muted
15:09:40 <GlenD> Amy to provide test cases for MEPs not described in part 2 - PENDING
15:09:49 <GlenD> DOrchard to respond to commenter on keeping mustUnderstand - PENDING
15:10:11 <Zakim> +Canon
15:10:33 <GlenD> pauld to write schema evolution proposal - PENDING
15:11:14 <GlenD> Hugo : talked to Michael S.McQ re: ignoreUnknowns, and I may have finished your AI :)
15:11:19 <youenn> youenn has joined #ws-desc
15:11:20 <Zakim> +DOrchard
15:12:04 <dorchard> dorchard has joined #ws-desc
15:13:12 <GlenD> DaveO: Will get that AI re: mustUnderstand done today if possible
15:13:28 <GlenD> Marsh to propose some text to address LC305 - DONE
15:13:34 <Arthur> Arthur has joined #ws-desc
15:13:37 <GlenD> Kevin Liu to propose text for talking about IRIs - PENDING
15:13:45 <GlenD> Marsh to write up LC315 proposal - DONE
15:13:52 <GlenD> Asir to put such an LC321 proposal together - DONE
15:13:59 <GlenD> Topic: Administrivia
15:14:06 <jjm> jjm has joined #ws-desc
15:14:23 <GlenD> discussion of f2f 
15:14:44 <GlenD> Marsh: no call during F2F - short call next week
15:14:57 <Zakim> +Rebecca
15:15:13 <GlenD> Logistics for November F2F are up, more on the way re: transportation
15:15:17 <jjm2> jjm2 has joined #ws-desc
15:15:40 <RebeccaB> RebeccaB has joined #ws-desc
15:15:42 <pauld> it's been moved fromTokyo to Yokohama ..
15:16:01 <uyalcina> zakim, unmute Umit
15:16:01 <Zakim> Umit should no longer be muted
15:16:37 <asir> if you are looking for japanese rail passes, read http://www.nta.co.jp/english/rail/ - you have to buy this before you arrive in Japan
15:17:23 <Marsh> ACTION: Marsh to check with Bob on closing date for hotel registration.
15:17:48 <GlenD> Topic: Z-notation in Part 2.
15:18:04 <Marsh> ACTION 1-
15:18:12 <Marsh> ACTION: 1=
15:18:17 <Marsh> I give up
15:18:29 <uyalcina> zakim, mute Umit
15:18:29 <Zakim> Umit should now be muted
15:18:51 <JacekK> ACTION1-
15:18:57 <JacekK> ACTION- 1
15:18:59 <JacekK> ACTION- 2
15:19:06 <GlenD> Marsh: Lack of formal notation for part 2 may have contributed to # of issues... maybe more Zed is the answer?
15:20:11 <GlenD> Hugo: Many more comments on part 2 than part 1 - spent a lot of time on part 1 partly due to Z-notation (finding issues, etc).  Might help part 2.
15:20:34 <GlenD> Marsh: Any volunteers for moving this forward?
15:20:56 <GlenD> Arthur: will work with anyone to help with this
15:21:32 <GlenD> (lots of interest, but no cycles)
15:22:45 <GlenD> Marsh: when can we do this?  Would be good to get it done ASAP, esp if it's going to raise issues...
15:23:21 <GlenD> Arthur: I'll take a crack at it, but no guarantees
15:24:25 <GlenD> (discussion of a Z-notation session at the F2F)
15:24:36 <pauld> a Z tutorial session / workshop would be cool!
15:26:10 <GlenD> Marsh: Should we just do the bindings?
15:26:26 <GlenD> Arthur: MEPs too, perhaps even abstract description of MEP
15:27:26 <GlenD> Arthur describes Z authoring process (pretty easy with right tools)
15:27:33 <GlenD> Topic: Issue LC301: {soap action} granularity
15:27:46 <GlenD> No response from Addr WG yet
15:27:53 <GlenD> Topic: Issue LC303: Mention IRIs in the primer 
15:27:57 <GlenD> Deferred
15:28:08 <GlenD> Topic: Issue LC304: Definition of a IANA media type token 
15:28:11 <Arthur> yes, there is a good zed url
15:28:25 <Arthur> google zed mike spivey
15:29:00 <Arthur> http://spivey.oriel.ox.ac.uk/~mike/zrm/
15:29:18 <GlenD> Hugo: Value of this required property must be an IANA media type token, but we don't say what that is
15:29:29 <Arthur> the zrm site has a pdf of the Z Reference Manual and the fuzz type checker
15:29:43 <GlenD> ...only other use of that phrase is the media types note.  We should define it...
15:30:33 <Arthur> To learn Zed, there is a short tutorial in http://spivey.oriel.ox.ac.uk/~mike/zrm/zrm.pdf
15:30:48 <GlenD> Marsh: Any objections to adopting Hugo's proposal? (http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/5/lc-issues/#LC304)
15:31:49 <GlenD> (discussion of whether we need parameters)
15:32:14 <uyalcina> zakim, unmute Umit
15:32:14 <Zakim> Umit should no longer be muted
15:32:36 <Arthur> you can download the fuzz type checker from http://spivey.oriel.ox.ac.uk/~mike/fuzz/
15:32:59 <GlenD> Umit: No mention of "token" in the media types doc currently...
15:34:20 <pauld> zakim, who is making noise? noise? noise?
15:34:20 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, pauld.
15:34:30 <GlenD> Hugo: originally just wanted to allow quality parameter, then wondered why restrict ourselves to just one?  
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15:35:54 <GlenD> Tom: Why allow parameters?  What do they mean?
15:36:13 <GlenD> Marsh: Does this appear in the HTTP envelope, and allow params there if so?
15:36:38 <GlenD> Tom: Example of input serialization?  "text/xml"?  
15:38:40 <GlenD> Hugo: Wondering if we're envisioning different kinds of XML serialization, and if so how would they get declared?
15:39:20 <GlenD> Hugo: Maybe we should say serialization corresponds to MIME type for HTTP response?  Not sure about allowing parameters or not...
15:40:49 <uyalcina> zakim, mute Umit
15:40:49 <Zakim> Umit should now be muted
15:40:49 <GlenD> Marsh: Sounds like the peanut gallery likes keeping things simple (no params), but if Hugo comes back with a good reason would they be acceptable?
15:41:25 <GlenD> Tom: We should say what a token is, but not do more stuff (params).  Keep it simple.
15:42:16 <GlenD> ACTION: Hugo to write revised proposal with clear direction on params (LC304)
15:42:29 <GlenD> Topic: Issue LC305: Notational conventions 
15:43:00 <GlenD> Marsh's proposal http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2005Sep/0010.html
15:43:43 <GlenD> Marsh: Our usage is quite consistent with WSA already.  We do illustrate extensions when needed, even though we don't show all extensibility points.
15:45:00 <uyalcina> it is good enough. 
15:45:11 <RebeccaB> ship it!
15:45:12 <asir> Looks good
15:45:17 <GlenD> Marsh: mixed content is a single case where we use italicized text, don't need to add that to the general description
15:45:26 <GlenD> Marsh: Any objections to proposal?
15:45:33 <GlenD> (no objections)
15:45:49 <GlenD> RESOLVED to accept Jonathan's proposal for LC305
15:45:56 <Zakim> -Allen_Brookes
15:46:33 <Marsh> ACTION: Marsh to ask WS-A for the changes re LC305
15:47:04 <GlenD> Topic: Issue LC315: HTTP binding: HTTP Header component's {element} property declaration
15:47:25 <GlenD> Marsh's proposal - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2005Sep/0008.html
15:48:28 <GlenD> +1 to simple content
15:49:23 <GlenD> Marsh: could toss out structure for complex/mixed content
15:50:09 <JacekK> +1 to simple content
15:50:17 <charlton> +1 to simple content
15:50:26 <GlenD> (discussion of definition of simple type / simple content)
15:50:48 <uyalcina> zakim, unmute Umit
15:50:48 <Zakim> Umit should no longer be muted
15:51:08 <Marsh> Proposal: "The element information item MUST be declared as a simple type or having simple content."
15:51:13 <GlenD> Umit: concerned about attributes - why shouldn't we worry about them?
15:51:56 <GlenD> Marsh: good to be able to add things like xml:id, but that doesn't change the actual value of the element...
15:52:34 <GlenD> Umit: Can we say attrs have no bearing here like we do with RPC method signatures?
15:52:56 <Zakim> -Bijan_Parsia
15:53:55 <GlenD> Umit: If it's already ignored, that's cool
15:55:29 <GlenD> (discussion of the origin of the text (ADD feature))
15:56:09 <Zakim> +Bijan_Parsia
15:56:16 <GlenD> Marsh: so what would we do with attributes if trying to turn an element into an HTTP header?
15:56:21 <RebeccaB_> RebeccaB_ has joined #ws-desc
15:56:34 <charlton> got to nash for now - see you next week and at the F2F
15:56:44 <Zakim> -Charlton_Barreto
15:57:39 <GlenD> Roberto: easy if we allow existing element decls and drop the attributes, although of course writing elements for this purpose wouldn't include them
15:58:53 <GlenD> Asir doubts anyone is going to use this feature
15:59:08 <GlenD> (scribe agrees)
15:59:56 <GlenD> Marsh: two proposals.  Allow more types, and Hugo's "strict" proposal, which must be simple type (no attrs, no complex types)
16:01:07 <GlenD> PROPOSAL : elements must be simple types.
16:01:33 <GlenD> Jacek: Change name of property from element to type?
16:01:37 <uyalcina> zakim, mute Umit
16:01:37 <Zakim> Umit should now be muted
16:01:50 <GlenD> Marsh: symmetrical with soap:header, which has element...
16:02:00 <GlenD> Arthur: yes, but SOAP *is* XML, HTTP ain't
16:02:32 <GlenD> Marsh: Reason for structure that maps to both?
16:03:04 <GlenD> Glen: Part of what DaveO wanted from ADD - abstract sideband application data?
16:03:40 <GlenD> (discussion of encoding/escaping)
16:05:03 <GlenD> Marsh: Do we really want arbitrary data or are simple types OK?
16:05:45 <GlenD> DaveO: content-location and WebDAV depth headers are interesting... maybe not arbitrary XML...
16:06:32 <GlenD> Marsh: use type instead of element?
16:06:41 <GlenD> Jacek/Glen: Then how do you name it?
16:07:00 <GlenD> Someone: use name of type?
16:07:07 <GlenD> Arthur: why not just an attribute name=""?
16:07:10 <bijan> bijan has joined #ws-desc
16:07:27 <GlenD> Jacek: we were already forcing people to make elements, now we can have them make types
16:07:55 <GlenD> Jacek: name="foo" type="simpleType" seems good
16:08:14 <GlenD> Marsh: seems like a new proposal would be good at this point...
16:09:07 <GlenD> (discussion of header serialization, multiple lines, escaping...)
16:09:48 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Jonathan_Marsh
16:11:22 <GlenD> Marsh: Need a volunteer to write this up.  Just point to simpleType, not an element - anything else is an error.  Rename element property to type (or simpleType), and also introduce name property.
16:11:51 <GlenD> Hugo: Why not just use element with simple type restriction?
16:12:04 <GlenD> ...doesn't this make the mechanisms different?
16:12:38 <GlenD> ACTION: Jacek to look into escaping/serialization issue
16:12:47 <Marsh> ACTION: Hugo to propose simpleType/header name for LC315.
16:13:06 <GlenD> Topic: Issue LC318: SOAP and HTTP bindings: Editorial reorganization for defaultstype
16:13:56 <GlenD> (Hugo describes issue)
16:17:15 <GlenD> Asir: specifying defaults is at the markup level.  Default binding rules is more about interpreting the component model than constructing it.  That's the difference.
16:19:24 <GlenD> Hugo: ok to define default for method in a different way than the query param or transfer coding?
16:19:46 <GlenD> Marsh: Strong opinions?
16:19:57 <GlenD> DaveO: we should be consistent, agree w/Hugo
16:20:11 <GlenD> Asir: LC324 captures this
16:21:08 <GlenD> Hugo: 6.10 is a better example than 6.6
16:25:37 <GlenD> PROPOSAL : Reorg as necessary using 6.10 as a model
16:26:42 <GlenD> Two kinds of defaults - a) syntactic (default attrs), which is single value per property, and b) algorithms for setting a value of a property based on other conditions (MEP in use, etc)
16:27:03 <GlenD> We are specifically looking at (a)
16:27:59 <GlenD> no objections to proposal
16:28:31 <GlenD> ACTION: Hugo to reorg as necessary using 6.10 as a model (LC318)
16:29:36 <alewis> alewis has left #ws-desc
16:29:37 <Zakim> -A_Ryman
16:29:38 <Zakim> -pauld?
16:29:38 <GlenD> ADJOURN
16:29:39 <Zakim> -Canon
16:29:40 <Zakim> -TonyR
16:29:41 <Zakim> -Amelia_Lewis
16:29:43 <Zakim> -DOrchard
16:29:44 <Zakim> -Hugo
16:29:45 <Zakim> -Roberto
16:29:47 <Zakim> -Jonathan_Marsh
16:29:48 <GlenD> RRSAgent, make log public
16:29:48 <Zakim> -Bijan_Parsia
16:29:49 <Zakim> -Rebecca
16:29:51 <Zakim> -asir
16:29:52 <Zakim> -T_Jordahl
16:29:54 <Zakim> -Umit
16:29:56 <Zakim> -JacekK
16:29:57 <GlenD> RRSAgent, generate minutes
16:29:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/09/15-ws-desc-minutes.html GlenD
16:30:09 <Zakim> -GlenD
16:30:09 <TonyR> TonyR has left #ws-desc
16:30:12 <Tomj> Tomj has left #ws-desc
16:30:35 <Marsh> Thanks, Glen!
16:33:15 <GlenD> u bet!
17:08:40 <Marsh> RRSAgent, bye
17:08:40 <RRSAgent> I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/15-ws-desc-actions.rdf :
17:08:40 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Hugo to write revised proposal with clear direction on params (LC304) [3]
17:08:40 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/15-ws-desc-irc#T15-42-16
17:08:40 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Marsh to ask WS-A for the changes re LC305 [4]
17:08:40 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/15-ws-desc-irc#T15-46-33
17:08:40 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Jacek to look into escaping/serialization issue [5]
17:08:40 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/15-ws-desc-irc#T16-12-38
17:08:40 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Hugo to propose simpleType/header name for LC315. [6]
17:08:40 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/15-ws-desc-irc#T16-12-47
17:08:40 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Hugo to reorg as necessary using 6.10 as a model (LC318) [7]
17:08:40 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/15-ws-desc-irc#T16-28-31
17:08:45 <Marsh> zakim, bye
17:08:45 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Bijan_Parsia, TonyR, Amelia_Lewis, JacekK, Allen_Brookes, T_Jordahl, Charlton_Barreto, A_Ryman, [Microsoft], Hugo, +1.415.268.aaaa,
17:08:45 <Zakim> Zakim has left #ws-desc
17:08:48 <Zakim> ... Roberto, asir, GlenD, pauld?, Jonathan_Marsh, Umit, Canon, DOrchard, Rebecca