IRC log of dawg on 2005-07-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:27:38 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #dawg

14:27:38 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/07/19-dawg-irc

14:27:39 [EliasT]

k.

14:27:44 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #dawg

14:27:48 [DanC]

Zakim, this will be dawg

14:27:48 [Zakim]

ok, DanC; I see SW_DAWG()10:30AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes

14:28:48 [Zakim]

SW_DAWG()10:30AM has now started

14:28:55 [Zakim]

+HowardK

14:28:57 [DanC]

agenda + Convene, take roll, review records and agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/0086.html

14:29:04 [Zakim]

+[IBMCambridge]

14:29:07 [DanC]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/0086.html

14:29:14 [DanC]

Meeting: RDF Data Access

14:29:15 [Zakim]

+ +1.617.906.aaaa

14:29:23 [DanC]

agenda + SPARQL results format booleans, datatypes

14:29:28 [LeeF]

zakim, 617.906.aaaa is LeeF

14:29:28 [Zakim]

sorry, LeeF, I do not recognize a party named '617.906.aaaa'

14:29:30 [Zakim]

+??P25

14:29:33 [DanC]

agenda + SPARQL QL publication

14:29:34 [AndyS]

zakim, ??P25 is AndyS

14:29:34 [Zakim]

+AndyS; got it

14:29:36 [EliasT]

Zakim, IBMCambridge is EliasT

14:29:36 [Zakim]

+EliasT; got it

14:29:41 [DanC]

agenda + Test suite maintenance

14:29:47 [Zakim]

+??P26

14:29:49 [LeeF]

zakim, +1.617.906.aaaa is LeeF

14:29:49 [Zakim]

+LeeF; got it

14:29:52 [DaveB]

Zakim, ??P26 is DaveB

14:29:52 [Zakim]

+DaveB; got it

14:30:09 [Zakim]

+DanC

14:30:22 [LeeF]

zakim, mute me

14:30:22 [Zakim]

LeeF should now be muted

14:30:24 [DanC]

Zakim, take up item 1

14:30:24 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "Convene, take roll, review records and agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/0086.html" taken up [from DanC]

14:30:27 [Zakim]

+Yoshio

14:30:30 [DanC]

RRSAgent, please draft minutes

14:30:30 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/07/19-dawg-minutes.html DanC

14:30:49 [Zakim]

+Jeen_Broekstra

14:31:06 [DanC]

Chair: DanC

14:31:08 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

14:31:11 [Zakim]

+Kevin

14:31:20 [SteveH]

Zakim, IPcaller is SteveH

14:31:20 [Zakim]

+SteveH; got it

14:31:22 [DanC]

Scribe: EliasT

14:31:25 [SteveH]

Zakim, mute me

14:31:25 [Zakim]

SteveH should now be muted

14:31:26 [DanC]

RRSAgent, please draft minutes

14:31:26 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/07/19-dawg-minutes.html DanC

14:32:08 [DanC]

Regrets: Janne Saarela, Hiroyuki Sato, Kendall Clark, Jos DeRoo

14:32:14 [DanC]

RRSAgent, please draft minutes

14:32:14 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/07/19-dawg-minutes.html DanC

14:32:24 [patH]

patH has joined #dawg

14:32:40 [Zakim]

+[MIT528]

14:32:41 [DanC]

Zakim, list attendees

14:32:41 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been HowardK, AndyS, EliasT, LeeF, DaveB, DanC, Yoshio, Jeen_Broekstra, Kevin, SteveH, [MIT528]

14:33:01 [Zakim]

+??P31

14:33:02 [Zakim]

+PatH

14:33:03 [DanC]

Zakim, MIT528 holds EricP

14:33:03 [Zakim]

+EricP; got it

14:33:23 [DanC]

Zakim, ??P31 is Souri

14:33:23 [Zakim]

+Souri; got it

14:33:56 [DanC]

Zakim, list attendees

14:33:56 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been HowardK, AndyS, EliasT, LeeF, DaveB, DanC, Yoshio, Jeen_Broekstra, Kevin, SteveH, PatH, EricP, Souri

14:34:44 [DanC]

Welcome Souri of Oracle

14:35:20 [EliasT]

http://www.w3.org/2005/07/12-dawg-minutes.html

14:35:56 [EliasT]

Next meeting, July 26th.

14:36:02 [EliasT]

Scribe for next meeting, EricP.

14:36:47 [DanC]

due to KC's regrets, I'm not adding Andy's protocol stuff today

14:36:49 [DanC]

Zakim, next agendum

14:36:49 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "SPARQL results format booleans, datatypes" taken up [from DanC]

14:36:52 [EliasT]

DanC, proposes to postpone protocol discussion until kendall meets again.

14:37:09 [ericP]

ericP has changed the topic to: RDF Data Access Telecon (agenda: <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/0086>)

14:37:28 [Zakim]

-SteveH

14:37:39 [LeeF]

zakim, unmute me

14:37:39 [Zakim]

LeeF should no longer be muted

14:37:59 [DaveB]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/0067.html

14:38:20 [DanC]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/0067.html 2 points remaining

14:38:43 [DanC]

+1 just a bool

14:39:07 [EliasT]

DaveB: We don't need to keep index="number", indicate that results are indexed via a boolean and to indicate distinctness.

14:39:26 [DanC]

(hmm... what would it be like to record all the solution modifier stuff? maybe that should get postponed along with XMLAbstractSyntax)

14:40:11 [EliasT]

ericP, Andy, Jeen in favor of boolean indicating ordered results.

14:40:21 [EliasT]

attribute name is "ordered=true"

14:40:37 [EliasT]

DaveB: what should the default be?

14:40:45 [EliasT]

ericP: should default to false.

14:41:26 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

14:41:33 [SteveH]

Zakim, IPcaller is SteveH

14:41:33 [Zakim]

+SteveH; got it

14:41:40 [EliasT]

unknown: ordered attribute should be mandatory.

14:41:42 [ericP]

ericP now in favor of mandatory

14:41:48 [Zakim]

-SteveH

14:42:02 [ericP]

+1

14:42:05 [EliasT]

LeeF: should be an error to have an ORDER BY query without ordered="true" in the results.

14:42:10 [patH]

unknown was Pat Hayes

14:42:16 [SteveH]

+1 to mandatory

14:42:19 [EliasT]

patH: ordered attribute should be mandatory.

14:43:37 [EliasT]

ericP: the reason for DISTINCT when someone is consuming a results via a stream.

14:44:29 [swh_]

swh_ has joined #dawg

14:44:41 [EliasT]

AndyS: we need to find a principle for adding distinct to the results.

14:45:03 [DanC]

q+ to suggest optinal distinct="true" attribute

14:45:03 [EliasT]

DanC: wonders why is adding ordered different than adding distinct.

14:45:14 [EliasT]

AndyS: ordered useful for XSLT presentation of results, can't see the same for distinct

14:45:15 [DanC]

ack danc

14:45:15 [Zakim]

DanC, you wanted to suggest optinal distinct="true" attribute

14:45:43 [EliasT]

ericP: in favor of both ordered and distinct being parallel.

14:45:57 [EliasT]

DanC: any real scenarios for using ordered/distinct.

14:46:05 [EliasT]

AndyS: He has a use for ordered.

14:46:13 [Yoshio]

q+ to ask if the result receiver knows something about query

14:46:55 [DanC]

ack yoshio

14:46:55 [Zakim]

Yoshio, you wanted to ask if the result receiver knows something about query

14:47:44 [Zakim]

+??P9

14:47:48 [ericP]

Yoshio: if you user knows about the orginal query...

14:47:56 [swh_]

Zakim, ??P9 is SteveH

14:47:56 [Zakim]

+SteveH; got it

14:48:06 [SteveH]

Zakim, mute me

14:48:06 [Zakim]

SteveH should now be muted

14:48:33 [EliasT]

DanC: as per Andy, sometimes yes, sometimes no

14:49:23 [EliasT]

Yoshio: in the results format we have the variables used, but not their relationship in the query.

14:50:18 [EliasT]

DaveB: the results should not further describe the query.

14:51:26 [patH]

Yoshio, I think it is up to the querying agent to keep track of such relationships, if it wishes to do so.

14:52:44 [EliasT]

Souri: What are the negatives having also distinct?

14:53:45 [EliasT]

DaveB: it makes it inconsistent to have ordered mandatory and distinct optional.

14:54:18 [ericP]

Yoshio, patH, a generic XML Results Set to HTML converter would care about @ordered and @distinct but not the query

14:54:22 [Yoshio]

my concern is if a query receiver will be happy if he/she just part of the information of the original query

14:54:41 [Yoshio]

s/just/just get/

14:55:30 [EliasT]

DanC: DaveB, did you take care of the xsi:type issue.

14:55:36 [EliasT]

DaveB: yes, I did so via email.

14:55:37 [DaveB]

yeah, gone see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/0058.html

14:55:41 [LeeF]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/0058.html

14:56:15 [DanC]

ACTION: DaveB integrate advice on ordered and distinct and propose last call candidate for results set spect

14:56:41 [SteveH]

I can review it

14:57:08 [EliasT]

ACTION: LeeF, SteveH and Jeen to review XML results set format.

14:57:38 [DanC]

Note Well: possible last call decision next week.

14:58:01 [DanC]

Zakim, next agendum

14:58:01 [Zakim]

agendum 3. "SPARQL QL publication" taken up [from DanC]

14:58:41 [EliasT]

DanC: saw recent discussion on regex language.

14:59:20 [EliasT]

AndyS: Reg Exp language in XML Schema is not quite the same as XQuery - differences have to do with anchoring

14:59:48 [EliasT]

ericP: acknowledges Andy. Thanks.

15:00:19 [DanC]

ACTION: EricP clarify which regex lang [continues]

15:01:00 [EliasT]

DanC: proposes to withdraw CVS logs emailed to mailing list.

15:01:30 [EliasT]

ericP: in favor of withdrawing CVS logs action.

15:01:32 [DanC]

DONE: PatH to review new optionals definitions, if any.

15:01:40 [DanC]

ACTION: DanC to write SOTD; work with EricP to publish

15:01:48 [DanC]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/lc43

15:01:56 [DanC]

Zakim, who's talking?

15:02:03 [patH]

The echo is charming, charming.

15:02:07 [Zakim]

DanC, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: LeeF (4%)

15:02:42 [LeeF]

Zakim, stop trying to make me look bad.

15:02:42 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'stop trying to make me look bad', LeeF

15:05:14 [ericP]

re removing xsi:type, some relevent lessons in the XML Schema 1.0 User Experiences Workshop report [[

15:05:17 [ericP]

Constructs mentioned as falling outside the sweet spot for some or many data binding tools included mixed content, choice, substitution groups, and even simple-type restriction.

15:05:20 [ericP]

]]

15:05:23 [ericP]

-> http://www.w3.org/2005/06/21-schema-workshop/chairs-report XML Schema 1.0 User Experiences

15:05:36 [DanC]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues

15:05:54 [ericP]

i'll pass the word to C. M. Sperberg-McQueen anyways

15:06:21 [EliasT]

DanC: Need to start thinking about how to justify going to candidate recommendation despite existing objections such as Network Inference's

15:07:11 [EliasT]

DanC: we seems to be all systems go for publication.

15:07:55 [EliasT]

Andy, what was your last statement?

15:08:25 [AndyS]

I have some mods to make before LC

15:08:38 [EliasT]

Thanks.

15:09:30 [EliasT]

DanC: Everyone is welcome to review the LC, but we are obliged to get it reviews by certain people, such as W3C chairs.

15:09:33 [DanC]

optionals changes pending

15:10:18 [EliasT]

LeeF: there's a type in bNodeRef issue.

15:10:22 [Zakim]

-Yoshio

15:10:42 [Zakim]

+Yoshio

15:10:45 [DanC]

Zakim, next agendum

15:10:45 [Zakim]

agendum 4. "Test suite maintenance" taken up [from DanC]

15:11:33 [SteveH]

I can build the tests page again now too

15:11:51 [EliasT]

DONE: ericP and SteveH can build the tests page in HTML.

15:12:10 [EliasT]

DanC: Anybody wants to know how generate the HTML test results page?

15:12:39 [SteveH]

no

15:12:50 [SteveH]

Zakim, unmute me

15:12:53 [Zakim]

SteveH should no longer be muted

15:13:40 [EliasT]

ACTION: DanC to check after August on SteveH regarding test preparation for publication as WG Note

15:13:45 [jeen]

Zakim, mute me

15:13:45 [Zakim]

Jeen_Broekstra should now be muted

15:14:28 [EliasT]

AndyS: no progress on AndyS to add the above graph test cases.

15:15:54 [EliasT]

DanC: We have to be able to tell to the world that all of the feature of the spec have been implemented. I think that until we have tests with documented results, I won't feel comfortable saying so.

15:16:35 [EliasT]

DanC: the other option is to claim that some vendor X has done so, but in our WG's case it should be better to do it ourselves.

15:16:36 [jeen]

Zakim, unmute me

15:16:36 [Zakim]

Jeen_Broekstra should no longer be muted

15:17:03 [EliasT]

ACTION: DanC to follow up re optional test based on op:dateTime triple

15:17:15 [EliasT]

ACTION: DaveB to to propose source test to approve

15:17:20 [EliasT]

ACTION EricP: finish extendedType-eq-pass-result.n3 test

15:17:40 [EliasT]

Jeen: finished eating his cookie. (Reason for unmmuting himself)

15:17:56 [DanC]

ADJOURN.

15:17:57 [Zakim]

-DaveB

15:17:59 [Zakim]

-Souri

15:18:00 [Zakim]

-HowardK

15:18:02 [Zakim]

-EliasT

15:18:03 [DanC]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

15:18:03 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/07/19-dawg-minutes.html DanC

15:18:06 [Zakim]

-Kevin

15:18:08 [Zakim]

-SteveH

15:18:09 [KevinW]

KevinW has left #DAWG

15:18:11 [Zakim]

-Jeen_Broekstra

15:18:27 [Zakim]

-Yoshio

15:18:29 [EliasT]

I have to reorg all of this into an email, correct DanC?

15:19:05 [DanC]

hmm... EliasT, the machine-generated minutes are pretty good... http://www.w3.org/2005/07/19-dawg-minutes.html

15:19:33 [EliasT]

excellent, btw, I readded the actions..

15:19:43 [EliasT]

that were not done. Do they stay from previous meeting?

15:19:57 [DanC]

I can take the -DRAFT- off... and it's traditional to have the full-text sent out in email (in case somebody POPs their mail and wants to read email on a plane)

15:20:19 [DaveB]

DaveB has left #dawg

15:20:25 [DanC]

yes, the minutes should include *all* oustanding action, both new and continued

15:20:50 [Zakim]

-[MIT528]

15:21:33 [EliasT]

when you say the full-text, you mean the IRC log and not the HTML from the generated log, right?

15:21:45 [DanC]

EliasT, how about this: hang on here in IRC for 10 minutes while I tidy up the minutes in HTTP space; then send them to the WG, both a pointer and an attachemnt. OK?

15:22:02 [EliasT]

oh ok, email attachment, sure.

15:22:10 [Zakim]

-DanC

15:23:10 [AndyS]

{ P1 optional(P2) optional(P3) }

15:25:19 [DaveB]

DaveB has joined #dawg

15:25:39 [AndyS]

{ (P1 optional(P2)) optional(P3) }

15:26:34 [DanC]

ok, EliasT 1.7 of http://www.w3.org/2005/07/19-dawg-minutes.html is ready

15:27:13 [EliasT]

k.

15:28:38 [EliasT]

done.

15:32:43 [EliasT]

EliasT has left #dawg

15:34:10 [Zakim]

-AndyS

15:34:11 [Zakim]

-PatH

15:34:56 [Zakim]

-LeeF

15:34:57 [Zakim]

SW_DAWG()10:30AM has ended

15:34:59 [Zakim]

Attendees were HowardK, AndyS, EliasT, LeeF, DaveB, DanC, Yoshio, Jeen_Broekstra, Kevin, SteveH, PatH, EricP, Souri

16:02:11 [DanC]

hmm... EliasT, I don't see the minutes.

16:02:48 [LeeF]

I'm talking to him -- try to find out what happened

16:02:54 [EliasT]

EliasT has joined #dawg

16:03:05 [EliasT]

DanC, I've sent the minutes already.

16:03:17 [DanC]

I don't see them in my inbox nor in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/thread.html

16:03:35 [EliasT]

I received a confirmation from the w3c mailing list manager regarding permission to post publicly.

16:03:44 [DanC]

hmm

16:03:50 [EliasT]

let me try again

16:04:04 [EliasT]

maybe the attachment is too bi?

16:04:05 [EliasT]

big

16:04:14 [EliasT]

and needs aproval by list-admin?

16:04:24 [LeeF]

Doubtful...

16:04:25 [DanC]

it's just a few K, no?

16:04:41 [DanC]

there's a message size limit, but it's more like 10MB

16:04:53 [ericP]

one of the mailhubs has been conjested in the past

16:05:04 [ericP]

i've waited up to 40 mins for distribution

16:05:06 [DanC]

it could just be in a queue somewhere

16:05:20 [EliasT]

I'll check later and resend if necessary

16:05:24 [DanC]

do you have the message-id of the one you sent, EliasT ?

16:05:28 [EliasT]

http://www.w3.org/Mail/review?id=22dba7ca1914c55cec21

16:05:37 [ericP]

s/mailhub/mailhub or list manager/

16:07:47 [DanC]

I guess I'll leave it be for a while.

16:16:48 [AndyS]

EricP - made changes to optional, makign sure the chnages are minimal

16:20:04 [AndyS]

It might be better to swap group and optional sections but no matter.

16:20:07 [AndyS]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#OptionalMatchingDefn

16:20:23 [AndyS]

Not pretty - but minimal :-)

17:00:48 [ericP]

weak, just about to talk to Andy

17:13:01 [Yoshio]

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17:30:49 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #dawg

19:09:47 [EliasT]

EliasT has left #dawg