14:23:13 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dawg
14:23:13 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/02/15-dawg-irc
14:25:08 <DaveB> DaveB has joined #dawg
14:26:17 <HiroyukiS> HiroyukiS has joined #DAWG
14:26:34 <kendall> kendall has joined #dawg
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14:29:15 <Zakim> SW_DAWG()9:30AM has now started
14:29:21 <Zakim> +HowardK
14:29:58 <Zakim> +Kendall_Clark
14:30:00 <Zakim> +??P4
14:30:03 <Zakim> +??P3
14:30:07 <Zakim> +DanC
14:30:07 <ericP> zakim, please dial ericP-617
14:30:09 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made
14:30:11 <Zakim> +EricP
14:30:13 <DaveB> Zakim, ??P4 is DaveB
14:30:13 <Zakim> +DaveB; got it
14:30:17 <Zakim> +??P5
14:30:38 <JosD> JosD has joined #dawg
14:30:52 <Zakim> +[ASemantics]
14:31:23 <HiroyukiS> Hi
14:31:23 <Zakim> +SteveH
14:31:41 <Zakim> +??P8
14:32:35 <DanC> Zakim, take up agendum 1
14:32:35 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Convene, take roll, review records and agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/0125.html" taken up [from DanC]
14:32:42 <afs_> afs_ has joined #dawg
14:32:55 <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
14:32:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see HowardK, Kendall_Clark, DaveB, HiroyukiS, DanC, EricP, AndyS, [ASemantics], SteveH, JosD
14:33:18 <DanC> Minutes of 2005-02-08 Telecon for review
14:33:18 <DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/0115.html
14:33:36 <db-scribe> approved
14:33:39 <db-scribe> DONM
14:33:45 <DanC> Zakim, pick a scribe
14:33:45 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose HowardK
14:33:54 <db-scribe> 22 Feb meeting
14:33:55 <Zakim> +??P9
14:33:57 <db-scribe> scribe howard
14:34:11 <DanC> Zakim, ??P9 is JanneS
14:34:11 <Zakim> +JanneS; got it
14:34:33 <db-scribe> Actions review
14:35:00 <db-scribe> all continued
14:35:05 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
14:35:05 <Zakim> agendum 2. "ftf6" taken up [from DanC]
14:35:22 <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TP2005/registrants#dawg
14:35:51 <DanC> aka ftf5
14:36:33 <kendall> zakim, mute me
14:36:34 <Zakim> Kendall_Clark should now be muted
14:36:49 <DanC> 27 February - 1 March 2005 Cambridge, MA
14:36:49 <DanC>     WG meeting, part of W3C Technical plenary 
14:36:57 <SteveH> zakim, mute me
14:36:57 <Zakim> SteveH should now be muted
14:36:58 <DanC> regrets Alberto
14:37:08 <kendall> zakim, unmute me
14:37:08 <Zakim> Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
14:37:20 <DanC> regrets DaveB
14:37:43 <DanC> (oops; I should do something about Enrico Franconi)
14:37:54 <db-scribe> (looking at the registration page above0
14:37:56 <db-scribe> )
14:38:16 <DanC> tentative/indirect regrets from Bryan Thompson
14:38:29 <DanC> (hmm... Jean-François Baget ?)
14:39:10 <DanC> KC: partial conflict; presenting NASA interop in SWIG
14:39:30 <DanC> (Network Inference ?)
14:40:07 <DanC> Janne: trying...
14:40:53 <DanC> (hmm.. .Farrukh Najmi?)
14:41:14 <DanC> (hmm... Pat Hayes?)
14:41:21 <DanC> regrets Howard Katz
14:42:14 <db-scribe> av requirements...
14:42:20 <db-scribe> e.g. remote dialin
14:42:31 <AlbertoR> yes please
14:42:57 <SteveH> zakim, unmute me
14:42:57 <Zakim> SteveH should no longer be muted
14:43:05 <AlbertoR> time no prob for me - before midnight here possibly :)
14:43:23 <db-scribe> maybe 2-3 hour slot max on eachh day, to be decided - DanC
14:43:31 <db-scribe> above re f2f5
14:43:34 <kendall> +q can we see observer reqests on the web somewhere?
14:43:38 <db-scribe> DanC has 1/2day conflict
14:43:40 <kendall> q+ can we see observer reqests on the web somewhere?
14:43:43 <db-scribe> kendall: see form results above
14:43:47 <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TP2005/registrants#dawg
14:44:16 <db-scribe> f2f6 proposals
14:44:21 <db-scribe> continued actions
14:44:35 <db-scribe> (: add pointer to alberto's proposal to minutes)
14:44:51 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
14:44:51 <Zakim> agendum 3. "valueTesting, XSCH" taken up [from DanC]
14:45:02 <AlbertoR> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/0072.html offer to host
14:45:17 <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/XSCH/xsch-sw-20050127/
14:45:44 <db-scribe> swbpd wants feedback at (before?) tech plenary
14:46:05 <db-scribe> ... we think they want to decide to publish at swbpd wg f2f
14:46:17 <db-scribe> eric, path actions continued
14:46:52 <db-scribe> steve review at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/0114.html
14:47:09 <db-scribe> ericp - found some things need to go over, via email pref
14:47:42 <JosD> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/0127.html
14:48:14 <db-scribe> josd review continued
14:49:16 <db-scribe> josd: triple constraints easier than AND ... constraints
14:49:27 <kendall> zakim, mute me
14:49:27 <Zakim> Kendall_Clark should now be muted
14:49:40 <kendall> okay, thx
14:49:41 <db-scribe> josD - not convinced by need for BOUND
14:49:45 <kendall> zakim, unmute me
14:49:45 <Zakim> Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
14:49:50 <DanC> (Jos the one thing that makes AND constraints special, to me, is that you can compute their negation in all cases.)
14:50:18 <db-scribe> DaveB - having problems thinkng about these constraints as triples
14:50:45 <db-scribe> ericP - maybe things you can't (easily) express as triples in the language
14:51:43 <db-scribe> ericP - you could take sparql and turn it into n3 + ... and use xslt [?]
14:53:26 <AndyS> I observe literals as subjects in Jos's examples
14:53:47 <AlbertoR> we got some ical/RDF-cal samples using contraints into triple-patterns (e.g. dates comparinsons) - see http://demo.asemantics.com/zparqler/examples/example8.html 
14:54:01 <db-scribe> ACTION DaveB: sketch tests on operators as predicates (aka constraints as triples)
14:54:02 <AlbertoR> e.g.     (?dtstart op:dateTime-greater-than "2000-06-00T00:00:00A")
14:54:31 <DanC> [[[
14:54:32 <DanC> PREFIX ical: <http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/ical#>
14:54:32 <DanC> SELECT ?uri ?summary ?dtstart
14:54:32 <DanC> FROM <rdfstore://localhost:1234/xannouncements>
14:54:32 <DanC> WHERE 
14:54:32 <DanC>     (?uri ical:summary ?summary)
14:54:34 <DanC>     (?uri ical:dtstart ?dtstart)
14:54:40 <DanC>     (?dtstart op:dateTime-greater-than "2000-06-00T00:00:00A")
14:54:42 <DanC> ]]]
14:55:43 <DanC> ack danc
14:56:02 <db-scribe> ericP - set of predicates that sparql engines must understand
14:56:14 <db-scribe> as operators and supported
14:57:00 <db-scribe> AndyS - will fails as the triple has a subject as literal
14:57:11 <db-scribe> and the object value isn't an xsd:date
14:57:19 <kendall> zakim, mute me
14:57:19 <Zakim> Kendall_Clark should now be muted
14:57:36 <db-scribe> EricP - spec does not recognise op:... in the triple pattern
14:58:43 <db-scribe> AndyS - removed this from the spec
14:58:47 <AlbertoR> I found it usefvul though (e.g. easier query optimization) - without processing the whole AND contraints clause
14:59:04 <kendall> zakim, unmute me
14:59:04 <Zakim> Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
15:00:41 <db-scribe> suggest to make 2 tests with same query,differnet intput
15:00:48 <db-scribe> one has no op;dateTime pred, one does
15:01:13 <SteveH> zakim, mute me
15:01:13 <Zakim> SteveH should now be muted
15:01:14 <kendall> does turtle allow variables?
15:01:16 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #dawg
15:01:36 <db-scribe> ACTION JosD: make test with op:dateTime predicate /without it 
15:01:53 <db-scribe> ACTION -1
15:02:11 <db-scribe> kendall: no, it's just an rdf syntax
15:02:15 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
15:02:15 <Zakim> agendum 4. "SPARQL QL pub" taken up [from DanC]
15:02:42 <db-scribe> EricP bound - done
15:02:49 <kendall> db-scribe: yeah, that's what i thought (another reason why i didn't want to change the triple pattern syntax to be the "turtle part of n3")
15:02:55 <db-scribe> EricP inline issue - continued
15:03:16 <SteveH> zakim, unmute me
15:03:16 <Zakim> SteveH should no longer be muted
15:03:26 <DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/thread.html#118
15:03:49 <db-scribe> discussions of concrete syntax changes ongoing
15:05:52 <db-scribe> discussions of syntax - where and how
15:07:45 <db-scribe> rq23 9.1 has a bunch of FROM/WITH which probably need unifying to WITH
15:08:44 <AndyS> Will check and fix ASAP
15:09:09 <AndyS> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#optionals
15:10:09 <db-scribe> OPTIONAL and [] both allowed at present in rq23
15:10:29 <db-scribe> AndyS preference for just OPTIONAL keyword
15:11:08 <AlbertoR> would an optional block then be OPTIONAL { ...... } ?
15:11:19 <db-scribe> sigh I see BASE still exists in the grammar only
15:11:25 <DanC> typo "teh optional"
15:11:44 <SteveH> typo in 5.1 "One the dat aabove, they return the query result:"
15:11:52 <kendall> AndyS: fwiw, i like the idea of considering "merely" syntax issues all at once... it's hard to do them piece meal
15:12:35 <AlbertoR> q+
15:14:03 <DanC> ack AlbertoR 
15:14:53 <db-scribe> DanC - will stick with plan to pub thu/fri
15:15:37 <kendall> what's the status quo about BOUND today?
15:15:47 <kendall> i can't find anything in 1.205...
15:16:06 <SteveH> kendall, BOUND ?x v's BOUNT(?x) etc.
15:16:11 <db-scribe> AndyS summarises current thoughts - delete [] for optiona,s kep AND, keep functions the same, keep BOUND(?x)
15:16:39 <DanC> broken link "(see the bound test)."
15:16:41 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/TR/xquery/#mapping connectes the grammar to an operator
15:16:55 <DanC> 11.2.1.2 sop:bound
15:17:27 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
15:17:28 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Service Descriptions" taken up [from DanC]
15:17:39 <AlbertoR> is there a namespace for sop: prefix?
15:17:52 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#func-isBound defines the behavoir of op:bound
15:18:10 <DanC> steve svc description http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/0113.html
15:18:16 <db-scribe> done
15:19:06 <db-scribe> steve - usesOntology unsure about the 'O' word
15:19:17 <db-scribe> "vocabs used in that document"
15:19:47 <db-scribe> might work for rdfs, but maybe not for owl which has a more formal defn
15:21:03 <db-scribe> discussion of dawg:usesOntology - "does this thing know about foaf?"
15:21:11 <db-scribe> or "understand" (handwave)
15:22:06 <db-scribe> steve - useful but not particularly happy about this either hte predicate name or the semantics
15:22:57 <db-scribe> could indirect via another node to allow multiple points to hang off the usesOntology, supprotsDataType 
15:23:10 <db-scribe> ... so different interfaces/service access points
15:23:16 <AndyS> +1 to Steve's point about some properties about the data not the service
15:23:23 <db-scribe> other actions continued
15:24:24 <db-scribe> DanC did some of the wsdl/soap encodings action, asking PLH
15:25:11 <db-scribe> got some way through then ran into wsdl2.0 requirement for tools
15:25:23 <db-scribe> continues
15:25:29 <db-scribe> all kendall actions continued
15:25:53 <db-scribe> Documents to read at F2F meeting
15:26:25 <db-scribe> re Protocol, http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/proto-wd/ a week before meeting
15:27:09 <db-scribe> last substantive change before helsinki f2f, more stuff not yet commited
15:27:11 <db-scribe> and todo
15:27:37 <db-scribe> 1 week before meeeting - 21st
15:27:45 <db-scribe> for docs to read, to be available
15:28:52 <db-scribe> VBR draft not expected to be avail 21st
15:29:58 <db-scribe> DaveB to try to deliver updated VBR by 28th Feb
15:30:17 <db-scribe> sparql query wd - pub this week, natural for f2f
15:30:40 <db-scribe> DanC - trying to put turtle out as an interest group note
15:31:22 <db-scribe> turtle used as our test case format
15:31:32 <db-scribe> and in specs
15:31:54 <db-scribe> appendix in query lang docs
15:32:03 <db-scribe> on n3ish alternatives
15:32:12 <db-scribe> at risk due to time
15:32:27 <db-scribe> ericP can work on this tomorrow
15:32:38 <db-scribe> s/this/n3 appendix/  - maybe
15:32:52 <db-scribe> adjourned
15:32:58 <DanC> RRSAgent, make logs world-access
15:33:14 <Zakim> -DaveB
15:33:15 <Zakim> -JanneS
15:33:16 <Zakim> -JosD
15:33:17 <Zakim> -Kendall_Clark
15:33:17 <Zakim> -[ASemantics]
15:33:18 <Zakim> -DanC
15:33:20 <Zakim> -HowardK
15:33:26 <Zakim> -HiroyukiS
15:33:33 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:33:33 <Zakim> On the phone I see EricP, AndyS, SteveH
15:38:25 <DaveB> DaveB has joined #dawg
15:45:37 <ericP> PREFIX foaf: &lt;http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/&gt;
15:45:37 <ericP> SELECT ?name1 ?name2
15:45:37 <ericP>  WHERE ( ?x foaf:name  ?name1 )
15:45:37 <ericP>        ( ?x foaf:mbox  ?mbox1 )
15:45:37 <ericP>        ( ?y foaf:name  ?name2 )
15:45:40 <ericP>        ( ?y foaf:mbox  ?mbox2 )
15:45:42 <ericP>    AND ?mbox1 == ?mbox2 && ?name1 NE ?name2
15:48:45 <AndyS> Typo : op:numeric-add(xs:float(7) + xs:float(6.5))  - the + should be ","
15:50:36 <SteveH> typo in 5.1 "One the dat aabove, they return the query result:"
15:51:03 <Zakim> -SteveH
16:12:36 <ericP> Used in conjunction with optional, it can be used to test whether triple with a variable has been asserted.
16:14:37 <ericP> Used in conjunction with optional, it can be used to test whether a graph pattern with at least one variable in it has been matched.
16:26:16 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone
16:26:16 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', AndyS
16:26:21 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:26:21 <Zakim> On the phone I see EricP, AndyS
16:28:25 <Zakim> -EricP
16:28:26 <Zakim> -AndyS
16:28:27 <Zakim> SW_DAWG()9:30AM has ended
16:28:28 <Zakim> Attendees were HowardK, Kendall_Clark, DanC, EricP, DaveB, [ASemantics], SteveH, JosD, AndyS, HiroyukiS, JanneS
16:29:25 <DaveB> and I got the minutes out http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/0133.html
16:29:35 <DaveB> which will refer to this very irc log
16:31:28 <ericP> daveb, good circularity!
16:57:31 <AndyS> Changes to rq23 made - v1.209
17:27:07 <DanC> ericp, andy, you are the only candidates for filling in as chair while I'm in the TAG meeting.
17:27:28 <DanC> that I know of
17:27:46 <DanC> and I might be stretching it to interpret Andy's comments as offering to chair
17:28:28 <ericP> i reckon i can do it.
17:29:15 <ericP> i note thta i'm better moderating discussion than coercing WG decisions
17:33:20 <DanC> I'm trying to find a half-day of business that I'm not interested in ;-)
17:33:53 <DanC> hmm... fromUnionQuery ... dunno if you're suficiently disinterested to chair that
17:34:10 <DanC> (looking at http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/ftf5-bos.html#agenda )
17:36:15 <DanC> I tried to scare away the observers, but it didn't work.
17:36:47 <DanC> i.e. I sent a "if you really want to attend, you need to prove it by writing yet another mail message to me" and they did
17:37:10 <ericP> i don't think i can do fromUnionQuery
17:37:31 <ericP> all? i just saw one insistence
17:40:19 <DanC> I got 4 "no" answers to my "go away?" message
17:40:59 <DanC> Marja, Jacek, Larry.Levy@semagix.com, balaji.prasad@eds.com
17:41:50 <DanC> ok, I think I have my ducks sufficiently lined up that I can ask the admin folks what size room they're giving us
17:44:50 <AndyS> I can chair if you want - best if that session is not about rq23 issues.
17:47:58 <AndyS> If Eric wants to get involved in protocol, I can chair a protocol session.
17:48:18 <AndyS> DanC - what do you want to miss?
17:48:39 <DanC> I think I want to miss fromUnionQuery
17:48:59 <DanC> and maybe ftf6 scheduling, though I dunno if I can
17:49:20 <ericP> I don't hink y ouhae that option. you're two candidate chairs are involved in it
17:49:27 <ericP> (re missing fromUnionQuery)
17:51:10 <DanC> hmm
17:51:18 <DanC> how about nestedOptionals?
17:51:57 <DanC> it needs a WG decision, coerced or otherwise
17:52:22 <DanC> hmm... maybe I could do that in the telcon 22 Feb
17:52:46 <DanC> maybe the best way to spend Monday AM is joint with SWIG
18:53:55 <Zakim> Zakim has left #dawg
19:14:53 <DanC> RRSAgent, stop