IRC log of wai-wcag on 2005-01-12
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 15:01:08 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
- 15:01:13 [Michael]
- rrsagent, make log world
- 15:01:42 [Zakim]
- WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has now started
- 15:01:49 [Zakim]
- +Michael_Cooper
- 15:02:06 [Zakim]
- +[IPcaller]
- 15:02:12 [Zakim]
- +Don_Evans
- 15:02:15 [Zakim]
- +Tim_Boland
- 15:02:19 [Michael]
- zakim, [IPcaller is Chris_Ridpath
- 15:02:19 [Zakim]
- +Chris_Ridpath; got it
- 15:02:39 [DonFEvans]
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- 15:02:48 [Michael]
- agenda+ Planning for tech plenary
- 15:02:53 [Zakim]
- +??P13
- 15:02:59 [ben]
- zakim, ??P13 is Ben
- 15:02:59 [Zakim]
- +Ben; got it
- 15:03:06 [Michael]
- agenda+ Continue assigning techniques from http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2004/11/19-sc-techniques-mapping.html
- 15:03:11 [ben]
- zakim, I am Ben
- 15:03:11 [Zakim]
- ok, ben, I now associate you with Ben
- 15:03:15 [Michael]
- agenda+ Test files
- 15:03:32 [wendy]
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- 15:03:47 [wendy]
- michael - i will be a few minutes late today.
- 15:03:50 [Michael]
- ok
- 15:04:06 [Zakim]
- +John_Slatin
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- +Ken_Kipnes
- 15:04:56 [ken]
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- 15:07:42 [DonFEvans]
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- 15:08:08 [shadi]
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- 15:08:12 [shadi]
- zakim, code
- 15:08:12 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'code', shadi
- 15:08:15 [shadi]
- zakim, code?
- 15:08:15 [Zakim]
- the conference code is 92248 (tel:+1.617.761.6200), shadi
- 15:08:24 [Zakim]
- +Shadi
- 15:08:39 [Zakim]
- +[IPcaller]
- 15:08:50 [Michael]
- zakim, [IP is Alistair_Garrison
- 15:08:50 [Zakim]
- +Alistair_Garrison; got it
- 15:10:11 [DonFEvans]
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- 15:10:29 [DonFEvans]
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- 15:11:20 [Michael]
- zakim, take up agendum 2
- 15:11:20 [Zakim]
- agendum 2. "Continue assigning techniques from http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2004/11/19-sc-techniques-mapping.html" taken up [from Michael]
- 15:11:59 [DonFEvans]
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- 15:12:16 [Michael]
- action: Ben write up stuff from work at Dublin for 2.5.2.1
- 15:12:23 [DonFEvans]
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- 15:13:32 [Zakim]
- +Wendy
- 15:15:20 [wendy]
- bc: Guideline 2.5 - almost all feel like scripting or General.
- 15:15:30 [wendy]
- mc: should be something General for all of these.
- 15:16:06 [wendy]
- js: maybe next step is for bc to draft more from dublin meeting and send to me or use the tech submission form or...
- 15:16:37 [Michael]
- action 1 = Ben write up stuff from work at Dublin for guidelines 2.5 for General Techniques
- 15:16:41 [wendy]
- js: aim for inclusion in the february internet draft
- 15:17:42 [Michael]
- action: John work on 3.1.3.3
- 15:17:59 [wendy]
- ben - fyi notes from general techs discussion at dublin mtg are at: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2004/10/f2f-summary.html#Detailed
- 15:18:07 [wendy]
- oops, http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2004/10/f2f-summary.html#Detailed
- 15:18:24 [wendy]
- 3.1 - john is working on
- 15:19:22 [wendy]
- 3.2.2.2 "All user interface components should be able to receive focus without causing activation."
- 15:19:36 [wendy]
- js: assuming need a general technique for everything.
- 15:19:47 [wendy]
- js: perhaps a separate agenda item to talk about requirements for general techniques.
- 15:19:52 [wendy]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 15:19:52 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Michael_Cooper, Chris_Ridpath, Don_Evans, Tim_Boland, Ben, John_Slatin, Ken_Kipnes, Shadi, Alistair_Garrison, Wendy
- 15:21:30 [Michael]
- action: Michael do HTML and / or script techniques for 3.2.2.2
- 15:22:36 [Michael]
- action: John take 3.2.2.5
- 15:23:40 [wendy]
- eep - "text equivalent" shows up in one of those level 3 criterion.
- 15:24:10 [wendy]
- that seems to be the only one.
- 15:24:23 [wendy]
- (guideline 3.2, level 3 #1)
- 15:24:48 [Michael]
- action: John work w/ Joe Clark on 3.2.3.3
- 15:25:58 [Michael]
- action: John "borrow" from 508 for 3.2.3.1
- 15:27:21 [Michael]
- action: Don take 3.2.3.2
- 15:32:01 [Michael]
- action: Michael do HTML tech for 3.2.3.4
- 15:32:37 [Michael]
- action: John do general tech for 3.2.3.4
- 15:34:57 [Michael]
- action: Ben do general tech for 4.2.1.2
- 15:39:50 [wendy]
- for "Users who do not have one or more of these technologies can still access and use the resource, though the experience may be degraded."
- 15:41:00 [Michael]
- action: Wendy work with Becky on 4.2.3.2
- 15:41:39 [wendy]
- for 4.2.3.2 - reuse techniques and examples that satisfy WCAG 1.0 Checkpoint 6.3 (or lots of guideline 6 http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/#gl-new-technologies)
- 15:42:33 [Michael]
- action: Tim take 4.2.3.3
- 15:43:00 [wendy]
- mc: Reminder: lots of people have action items from last call and this call.
- 15:43:02 [wendy]
- agenda?
- 15:43:04 [Michael]
- zakim, take up agendum 1
- 15:43:08 [Zakim]
- agendum 1. "Planning for tech plenary" taken up [from Michael]
- 15:43:10 [wendy]
- zakim, take up item 1
- 15:43:10 [Zakim]
- agendum 1. "Planning for tech plenary" taken up [from Michael]
- 15:45:12 [wendy]
- CSS - if have issues want to discuss, would be good. they may move meeting to the end of the week.
- 15:46:27 [wendy]
- "Compound Document Formats Working Group" - PFWG meet with to ask about "alternatives" ala MathML discussion on the list this week.
- 15:49:24 [wendy]
- show a face in I18N. also overlap between i18n and 3.1.
- 15:49:31 [wendy]
- synchronized markup - need techs for 1.2
- 15:53:17 [wendy]
- mc: like someone sitting in on DIWG, ERT WG, timed text, QA, PFWG
- 15:53:23 [wendy]
- tb: plan to attend QA
- 15:54:34 [wendy]
- saz: thursday afternoon, ert likely meeting with eo. friday may be better.
- 15:54:52 [wendy]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 15:54:52 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Michael_Cooper, Chris_Ridpath, Don_Evans, Tim_Boland, Ben, John_Slatin, Ken_Kipnes, Shadi, Alistair_Garrison, Wendy
- 15:55:31 [wendy]
- who will be there all week? michael, john,
- 15:55:38 [wendy]
- chris and don, not likely.
- 15:55:51 [wendy]
- all week: ben, tim, wendy, shadi
- 15:56:01 [wendy]
- ken: planning monday,tuesday, wednesday, could try others
- 15:56:58 [wendy]
- alistair: planning mtw could probably extend
- 15:57:14 [wendy]
- ertwg and wcag wg likely to meet on friday.
- 15:58:59 [wendy]
- timed text: michael
- 15:59:52 [wendy]
- js: attend eo on thursday
- 16:00:00 [wendy]
- bc: uaag on thursday
- 16:00:35 [Zakim]
- -Tim_Boland
- 16:01:14 [wendy]
- js and maybe michael attend i18n geo
- 16:02:24 [wendy]
- jenae with QA
- 16:03:20 [wendy]
- voice browser - meet with WAI? who do they mean?
- 16:03:46 [wendy]
- will have most of monday/tuesday just ourselves to work on techniques
- 16:04:10 [wendy]
- break
- 16:04:14 [Zakim]
- -John_Slatin
- 16:08:54 [Zakim]
- +John_Slatin
- 16:10:08 [wendy]
- agenda?
- 16:10:33 [Michael]
- zakim, close agendum 2
- 16:10:33 [Zakim]
- agendum 2 closed
- 16:10:34 [Zakim]
- I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
- 16:10:35 [Zakim]
- 1. Planning for tech plenary [from Michael]
- 16:10:38 [Michael]
- zakim, close agendum 1
- 16:10:38 [Zakim]
- agendum 1 closed
- 16:10:41 [Zakim]
- I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
- 16:10:43 [Zakim]
- 3. Test files [from Michael]
- 16:10:47 [Michael]
- zakim, take up agendum 3
- 16:10:47 [Zakim]
- agendum 3. "Test files" taken up [from Michael]
- 16:14:52 [wendy]
- mc: by t.p. will have had 2 internal drafts and prepping for public.
- 16:17:28 [wendy]
- wac: new things (goals) for next public drafts - test files and checklists.
- 16:17:58 [wendy]
- ag: is there a format/wording style for test files? then, if people want to write tests, they could write tests for you.
- 16:18:15 [wendy]
- cr: there is a schema. could write a doc that summarizes the format.
- 16:19:29 [wendy]
- wac: we could set up a submission form for test files, similar to the one that we have for techniqeus.
- 16:19:39 [wendy]
- ag: concern about wording of testable statements.
- 16:21:20 [wendy]
- ag: if had applicability condition, then could go through list and easily check if something is applicable or not and get a list of what is applicable or not.
- 16:21:42 [wendy]
- ag: e.g., going through general techniques, "does the pg contain a non-text element" using keywords that have been pulled out.
- 16:22:02 [wendy]
- ag: this is a basis behind a checklist.
- 16:22:22 [wendy]
- ag: then use techniques and test suites that are applicable.
- 16:22:56 [Zakim]
- -Don_Evans
- 16:23:07 [wendy]
- ag: a paragraph in the techniques, "it is applicable in this condition"
- 16:23:40 [wendy]
- mc: test files, checklists - high priorities. general techs, script, css, and html techs. coord with other groups.
- 16:24:04 [wendy]
- zakim, take up item 3
- 16:24:04 [Zakim]
- agendum 3. "Test files" taken up [from Michael]
- 16:24:26 [wendy]
- mc: how we're going to vote on test files.
- 16:25:08 [wendy]
- ag: each test should collectively support eh technique, not the SC.
- 16:25:26 [wendy]
- cr: each test is mapped to a SC.
- 16:26:28 [wendy]
- ag: looking at the mapping you want to achieve (the "end-to-end"). looking that each level supports the level above in terms of testability.
- 16:26:57 [wendy]
- ag: if there was a tech for data tables, and collectively answered whether that techniue had been implemented. want to ensure that each test does 100% of what it is intended to do.
- 16:27:11 [wendy]
- wac: how determine if 100% or not.
- 16:27:28 [wendy]
- ag: need a good idea of what technique is trying to achieve. map test to the testable statements.
- 16:27:45 [wendy]
- cr: tests may not cover every SC. some tests may not apply to every technology.
- 16:27:57 [wendy]
- cr: don't think we can say that we will fulfill 100% of each SC for every technology.
- 16:28:10 [wendy]
- ag: but should be able to split each technique into a variety of testable statements.
- 16:28:33 [wendy]
- ag: may not be able to solve automatically, some may need human
- 16:28:44 [wendy]
- cr: many of the tests are fitting into how people are evaluating content now.
- 16:28:52 [wendy]
- cr: did not systematically work our way down.
- 16:29:00 [wendy]
- ag: will need to make changes to test suite to meet in the middle.
- 16:29:06 [wendy]
- ag: will need to define each stage carefully.
- 16:29:16 [wendy]
- ag: have to do it from the top down since the SC have been written.
- 16:29:27 [wendy]
- cr: there may be SC that don't have techniques or test files.
- 16:29:33 [wendy]
- ag:not yet, but they will have to exist.
- 16:29:38 [wendy]
- cr: yes, but not for every technology.
- 16:29:45 [wendy]
- bc: we've talked about covering that issue with the checklist.
- 16:29:59 [wendy]
- bc: even if no technique for a technology, the chekclist will include a notation about that.
- 16:30:16 [wendy]
- cr: think that css might not have alt-text.
- 16:30:24 [wendy]
- bc: right. so a css-checklist couldn't meet the guidelines.
- 16:30:45 [wendy]
- bc: if a technology is incapable of meeting a technology, then can't make a wcag 2.0 conformance claim.
- 16:30:50 [wendy]
- bc: the checklist should say that.
- 16:31:41 [wendy]
- ag: you've got to write techniues for each technology that support a SC
- 16:32:45 [wendy]
- cr: it might map to a SC and SC are mapped to a level, but the level of tecnique and test may not match what in guidelines.
- 16:32:56 [wendy]
- q+ to say, "specgl examples"
- 16:33:27 [Michael]
- ack wendy
- 16:33:27 [Zakim]
- wendy, you wanted to say, "specgl examples"
- 16:36:22 [wendy]
- bc: have already dont that. have said that some techs are optional.
- 16:36:44 [wendy]
- ag: saying "best practice" would confuse people. people only want to see what they have to do, not what would be nice to do.
- 16:36:53 [wendy]
- ack john
- 16:37:44 [wendy]
- js: thought we had discussed and agreed that the techs would focus on techs that are necessary and sufficient for conformance, or jsut test files?
- 16:38:06 [wendy]
- js: think there is slippage between what levels mean in WCAG 2.0 and priorities in WCAG 1.0.
- 16:38:30 [wendy]
- js: a level 3 criterion is not something that is less important, it is something that may not apply across all web content.
- 16:39:23 [wendy]
- q+ to say, "next sorting - into optional techniques, clearly label. then mark test files as such as well. will need for the checklist."
- 16:39:38 [wendy]
- ack wendy
- 16:39:38 [Zakim]
- wendy, you wanted to say, "next sorting - into optional techniques, clearly label. then mark test files as such as well. will need for the checklist."
- 16:40:18 [AliG]
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- 16:40:29 [AliG]
- q+
- 16:41:22 [Michael]
- ack ali
- 16:42:13 [wendy]
- action: wendy create questionnaire for techniques. choose required, optional or other (please explain) for each technique.
- 16:44:24 [wendy]
- discussion of the meaning of the levels in wcag 2.0
- 16:45:01 [wendy]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 16:45:01 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Michael_Cooper, Chris_Ridpath, Ben, Ken_Kipnes, Shadi, Alistair_Garrison, Wendy, John_Slatin
- 16:58:55 [wendy]
- discussion about how technology-agnostic the general techniques are/should be
- 17:05:08 [wendy]
- action: ben, alistair, chris talk about checklists.
- 17:06:52 [wendy]
- action: js draft a short requirments for general techniques
- 17:07:24 [Zakim]
- -Michael_Cooper
- 17:07:25 [Zakim]
- -Chris_Ridpath
- 17:07:26 [ChrisR]
- ChrisR has left #wai-wcag
- 17:07:26 [Zakim]
- -Wendy
- 17:07:28 [Zakim]
- -John_Slatin
- 17:07:29 [Zakim]
- -Ken_Kipnes
- 17:07:34 [Zakim]
- -Alistair_Garrison
- 17:07:39 [Zakim]
- -Ben
- 17:07:41 [Michael]
- rrsagent, bye
- 17:07:41 [RRSAgent]
- I see 15 open action items:
- 17:07:41 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Ben write up stuff from work at Dublin for guidelines 2.5 for General Techniques [1]
- 17:07:41 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/01/12-wai-wcag-irc#T15-12-16
- 17:07:41 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: John work on 3.1.3.3 [2]
- 17:07:41 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/01/12-wai-wcag-irc#T15-17-42
- 17:07:41 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Michael do HTML and / or script techniques for 3.2.2.2 [3]
- 17:07:41 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/01/12-wai-wcag-irc#T15-21-30
- 17:07:41 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: John take 3.2.2.5 [4]
- 17:07:41 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/01/12-wai-wcag-irc#T15-22-36
- 17:07:41 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: John work w/ Joe Clark on 3.2.3.3 [5]
- 17:07:41 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/01/12-wai-wcag-irc#T15-24-48
- 17:07:41 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: John "borrow" from 508 for 3.2.3.1 [6]
- 17:07:41 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/01/12-wai-wcag-irc#T15-25-58
- 17:07:41 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Don take 3.2.3.2 [7]
- 17:07:41 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/01/12-wai-wcag-irc#T15-27-21
- 17:07:41 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Michael do HTML tech for 3.2.3.4 [8]
- 17:07:41 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/01/12-wai-wcag-irc#T15-32-01
- 17:07:41 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: John do general tech for 3.2.3.4 [9]
- 17:07:41 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/01/12-wai-wcag-irc#T15-32-37
- 17:07:41 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Ben do general tech for 4.2.1.2 [10]
- 17:07:41 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/01/12-wai-wcag-irc#T15-34-57
- 17:07:41 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Wendy work with Becky on 4.2.3.2 [11]
- 17:07:41 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/01/12-wai-wcag-irc#T15-41-00
- 17:07:41 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Tim take 4.2.3.3 [12]
- 17:07:41 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/01/12-wai-wcag-irc#T15-42-33
- 17:07:41 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: wendy create questionnaire for techniques. choose required, optional or other (please explain) for each technique. [13]
- 17:07:41 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/01/12-wai-wcag-irc#T16-42-13
- 17:07:41 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: ben, alistair, chris talk about checklists. [14]
- 17:07:41 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/01/12-wai-wcag-irc#T17-05-08
- 17:07:41 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: js draft a short requirments for general techniques [15]
- 17:07:41 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/01/12-wai-wcag-irc#T17-06-52
- 17:07:46 [AliG]
- AliG has left #wai-wcag