21:02:40 RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag 21:02:44 chris ridpath, my voice is not coming through 21:02:45 rrsagent, make logs world 21:02:58 I'll dial back in and try again 21:03:03 -fyergeau 21:03:26 zakim, who's on the phone? 21:03:26 On the phone I see Avi, Yvette_Hoitink, Alex_Li, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Michael_Cooper, Bengt_farre 21:03:48 +[Microsoft] 21:03:54 +fyergeau 21:04:10 Today I cannot use dialpad, I will follow only with irc 21:04:10 +John_Slatin 21:04:12 zakim, [Microsoft] is MikeBarta 21:04:12 +MikeBarta; got it 21:04:21 ben has joined #wai-wcag 21:04:26 +Becky_Gibson 21:04:30 zakim, fyergaeu is Chris_Ridpath 21:04:30 sorry, Yvette_Hoitink, I do not recognize a party named 'fyergaeu' 21:04:51 Becky_Gibson has joined #wai-wcag 21:04:56 zakim, who's on the phone? 21:04:56 On the phone I see Avi, Yvette_Hoitink, Alex_Li, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Michael_Cooper, Bengt_farre, MikeBarta, fyergeau, John_Slatin, Becky_Gibson 21:05:24 +??P11 21:05:33 zakim, ??P11 is Gregg_and_Ben 21:05:33 +Gregg_and_Ben; got it 21:06:20 zakim, who is here? 21:06:20 On the phone I see Avi, Yvette_Hoitink, Alex_Li, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Michael_Cooper, Bengt_farre, MikeBarta, fyergeau, John_Slatin, Becky_Gibson, Gregg_and_Ben 21:06:23 On IRC I see Becky_Gibson, ben, RRSAgent, ChrisR, Michael, rellero, Zakim, bengt, Yvette_Hoitink 21:06:25 -Michael_Cooper 21:06:26 I was here, 21:06:32 usability issues on my phone 21:06:33 I'll redial 21:07:14 thought i was unmuting and I hung up 21:07:45 +??P6 21:07:54 zakim, ??P6 is Michael 21:07:54 +Michael; got it 21:08:01 zakim, mute me 21:08:01 Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted 21:08:07 zakim, Michael is Michael_Cooper 21:08:07 +Michael_Cooper; got it 21:08:17 zakim, I am Michael_Cooper 21:08:17 ok, Michael, I now associate you with Michael_Cooper 21:08:26 zakim, unmute me 21:08:26 Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted 21:08:47 scribe: me 21:09:09 zakim, fyergeau is Chris_Ridpath 21:09:09 +Chris_Ridpath; got it 21:09:16 zakim, fyergeau is Chris 21:09:16 sorry, ben, I do not recognize a party named 'fyergeau' 21:09:25 gregg has joined #wai-wcag 21:09:30 MC: yesterdays tech call 21:09:45 mc: checklists & test suite 21:10:07 test suites have been moved into W3C space 21:10:12 weren't ready to take poll yet 21:10:33 in the end they decided that test suites only have test that are necessary and sufficient to meet the guidelines 21:10:41 no optional tests in test suite for now 21:10:54 the checklists should be driven by the test suits 21:10:57 s/suits/suites 21:11:22 the items in the suites would lead to the items on the check lists, the ones you check off 21:11:34 ready to go forward and start on that work 21:11:57 we have a test suite for HTML but need suites for other techs too 21:13:46 discussion about tasks, they used to be checklists items. 21:14:02 we found that they were not granular/specific enough to become checklists 21:14:18 so we changed them from checklist items into tasks 21:15:00 gv: It will be good to figure out what the role of tasks is 21:15:11 in current document it isn't clear 21:15:25 you have guidelines, sc, and now checklist items, techniques 21:15:39 techniques speak to tasks, not clear how all of that relates 21:15:46 need a model of how everything fits together 21:16:14 GV: we need a direct correlation between tasks and checklists 21:16:24 both guide each other, not only one direction 21:17:02 don't want to delete items from checklists because we don't yet have a test for it 21:17:44 you might want to generate the checklists and the test suite from the same source document. 21:18:22 gv: could generate other stuff from same source as well 21:18:46 If empty tests are generated, we know where we need to work on 21:18:57 compliment the group on the format, setting up procedures 21:19:07 gv: questions? 21:19:17 all: (silence) 21:19:51 +??P12 21:20:06 gv: next: test suites & checklist discussion 21:21:18 gv: technologies used would be used to generate the checklists 21:21:32 even simple HTML page often has multiple technologies 21:21:41 zakim, ??P12 is Kerstin 21:21:41 +Kerstin; got it 21:21:53 lots of 'orphan' items that do not relate to a success criteria 21:22:16 talked about moving them to a seperate place 21:23:05 for example: alt.text.length >= X, that's not in our guidelines or sc so we need to decide what to do with them 21:23:21 gv: I understand that we moved them for now, correct? 21:23:23 +??P13 21:23:24 mc: yes 21:24:01 gv: it's strange to have W3 tests for things that W3 doesn't require. Needs thought 21:24:12 gv: "test procedures" or "test suite"? 21:24:37 suite = stimuli that you run to see if it meets. Currently, we have procedures with some sample code 21:25:00 You could use suite to test _tools_ 21:25:29 should we have two types of tests suites? 21:25:36 zakim, ??P13 is David_MacDonald 21:25:36 +David_MacDonald; got it 21:25:43 zakim, who's making noise? 21:25:54 Yvette_Hoitink, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Chris_Ridpath (39%), Yvette_Hoitink (50%), Alex_Li (9%), Gregg_and_Ben (34%) 21:26:33 gv: other issues with tests suites/checklists? 21:27:03 all: (silence) 21:27:32 gv: Q for Chris: do you prefer "test suite" or "test procedures"/"test methods"? 21:27:42 delete last line 21:28:04 gv: test procedures for what is currently test suite, and 'test suite' to test tools 21:28:15 CR: I think test suite is good term for what it is 21:28:23 CR: purpose is to test content 21:28:43 CR: test suite can be used to check document, similar to checklists 21:28:57 gv: checklists tells you the true/false questions 21:29:04 test suites tells you how to determine that 21:29:23 CR: If your content passes all tests in test suite, your content passes the guidelines 21:29:39 gv: test procedure/test methods might be easier to translate 21:29:49 gv: we can leave this as an open issue 21:29:56 CR: no problem with name change 21:30:13 CR: it's still not clear to people that this is the way to test conformance 21:30:36 CR: more interested in function of the suite than title 21:31:07 JS: If 'test suite' is the correct term for this thing, is it the correct term for the other pages that Gregg mentioned and if not what should we call them? 21:32:21 CR: Chose term because W3 uses the term 'suite' a lot 21:32:26 http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/tests/ 21:32:33 gv: we'll discuss this with Shawn and EO 21:33:34 gv: it seems we're clear of what the test suites and checklists are 21:33:45 gv: superb idea to derive both of them from the same source 21:34:06 gv: techniques also have direct correlation with checklists and test suite 21:34:29 gv: people are interested in "how do I meet the checklists" so suite is important 21:35:19 gv: BTW: if we talk about measuring things in words, have to take Japanese-like languages into account which don't have words as such 21:35:25 gv: other comments? 21:35:59 David has joined #wai-wcag 21:36:15 Becky has joined #wai-wcag 21:36:28 CR: some of the tests are language-specific for example the alt-text word limit 21:36:44 Gage Dictionary meaning #3) Suite: any set or series of like things 21:37:32 CR: Some tests are optional, you could have tests like the alt-length where human testing can be prompted if too long 21:38:15 BeckyG has joined #wai-wcag 21:38:24 GV: we have no SC that alt-text has to be short. have to be careful that we don't contrain them just because it's easy to test 21:38:46 CR: That's the whole point of bottom-up working, we have to hope to meet in the middle 21:38:57 Becky_Gibson has joined #wai-wcag 21:38:59 GV: top-down is normative, bottom-up is not 21:39:24 gv: next topic: John's 18 November proposed change to guideline 1.1 21:39:37 http://tinyurl.com/4pf37 21:40:07 q+ 21:40:16 GV: changes from 'identifying' to 'providing' the function 21:40:23 ack John 21:41:15 gv: if you have an unchecked box, you want "unchecked box" as alt, not "this box tells you whether the statement is true or not" 21:41:58 JS: quick update: Mike Barta responded that he had problem with "provides the same function" 21:42:12 JS: new proposal: "serves the same function" instead 21:42:22 "serves the same purpose as" 21:42:50 BG: That helps clarify for me, "function" sounded to active for me. "serves the same purpose" is better 21:43:04 GV: I had issues too, that are addressed by this new proposal 21:43:24 GV: Unanimous consent to change the phrasing to "serves the same purpose as" 21:43:33 GV: Next topic: Misc issues 21:43:51 GV: Issue 292 21:44:05 gv: active/passive voice, addressed by John's rewrite 21:44:16 JS: I will continue to address this as I go along 21:44:55 GV: no objections to closing this item -> item closed 21:45:11 GV: Next issue: 376 21:46:48 GV: If you mark up the text, determining how to show it to the user is user-agent issue 21:47:23 GV: closed because covered by UAAG 21:47:40 GV: Next issue: 392 - 21:47:58 GV: complaint was that we should define target audience 21:48:20 GV: What are target audiences? 21:48:25 JS: Web developers! 21:48:47 BG: This ties in with Tom's work on personas 21:48:55 GV: we need a list for our requirements docs 21:49:16 JS: Policy makers 21:49:30 YH: Website owners/managers 21:49:39 BG: User agent developers 21:49:42 users 21:49:45 tool makers 21:50:01 JS: people who write contracts 21:50:06 purchasing agents 21:50:19 gv: how would a user use the guidelines? 21:50:50 BG: because they want to address inaccessible website and want to know what can be done 21:50:57 GV: consumers / advocates 21:51:21 GV: authoring tool developers, testing tool developers 21:51:26 BG: lawyers 21:51:40 YH: content managers 21:52:17 GV: so we have website owners/managers and web content managers 21:52:26 UI designers 21:54:51 individuals and organizations 21:54:55 teachers 21:55:01 trainers 21:55:11 consultants 21:55:37 rehabilitation specialists 21:56:17 gv: anything else, you can send it on 21:56:31 GV: next issue: 317 - 21:57:01 gv: presenting information with color 21:57:53 gv: we wrote "in color" but we meant only if the color IS presenting the information 21:58:06 gv: our current wording can be read wrong. 21:58:23 BG: Joe Clark thought we were against color, because he misunderstood 22:00:48 GV: I think this is a very good point, but have two problems with proposed formulation by BG 22:02:36 bengt_ has joined #wai-wcag 22:02:57 GV: "information differentiated by hue"? 22:03:42 have to make clear that you can present information using color, but the color shouldn't be informative in tiself 22:03:49 s/tiself/itself 22:04:20 zakim, kick bengt_farre 22:04:20 I don't understand 'kick bengt_farre', bengt_ 22:04:44 YH: Perhaps we can swap: "If color is used to convey information..." 22:04:45 -Bengt_farre 22:05:18 +??P2 22:05:23 BG: If I make a label red, that's acceptable at level 1? 22:05:29 zakim, ??P2 is Bengt_Farre 22:05:29 +Bengt_Farre; got it 22:05:32 GV: Yes, because it is available in markup 22:06:03 -Kerstin 22:06:10 BG: So a screenreader user would have to instruct the reader to read aloud the attributes to know it's red? 22:06:16 gV: At level 1, that is correct 22:06:20 q+ 22:06:41 JS: I can tell Jaws to give me color information 22:06:54 +??P12 22:07:00 JS: Adds significantly to the time it takes 22:07:29 zakim, ??P12 is Kerstin 22:07:29 +Kerstin; got it 22:07:31 zakim, ??P12 is Kerstin 22:07:31 I already had ??P12 as Kerstin, Becky_Gibson 22:07:34 :-) 22:08:20 GV: is a result because we choose at level 1 we wouldn't require visual changes, so that's why the use of color is at level 2 22:08:25 without markup, that is 22:09:24 GV: Old wording used different words for level 1 and 2, one said "through color", other said "using color" 22:10:18 GV: L1 "any information conveyed through color can also be programmatically determined" 22:13:24 YH: Many web developers use hex to denote color: #FFAABB, etc 22:13:41 GV: User agent should determine which color that is. But oops, UAAG doesn't require that so we can't either 22:14:10 JS: We need to make sure information like "this field is required" should be available 22:15:16 YH: A technique could be to use a 22:15:55 BC: At the moment, title is many times optional and read on request 22:16:25 JS: I think the wording does work with our intent 22:16:54 GV: L2: "Any information that is conveyed through color is also available without having to interpret color or markup" 22:17:15 JS: That might be problematic because all content requires interpreting markup 22:17:31 JS: We don't want PEOPLE to look at markup 22:17:45 s/People/require people 22:18:17 BC: "without color" 22:18:27 -Chris_Ridpath 22:18:35 GV: No, that would require black and white which is not how we want people to read 22:19:55 "in a manner that does not rely on color alone" 22:22:26 GV: "Any information that is conveyed through color is presented in a manner that does not rely on color or markup" 22:23:01 YH: problem with that, relying on markup might be a good alternative to color, for example + red 22:24:52 GV: We don't want to pass at level 2, because that still requires special AT 22:25:29 YH: Is title covered in UAAG? 22:25:47 GV: It is, but at lvl 2 we don't want people to hover over every form element to see what's required 22:31:09 Is color just a special case of 'visual modality'? For example, do we also want to address people who can't perceive a 2 pt font difference? 22:32:56 GV: You could use light and dark and be ok 22:35:05 YH: I thought the color issue was for two audiences: blind + colorblind, not just colorblind 22:35:11 GV: blind are covered at level 1 22:35:28 YH: disagree, at level 2 blind people shouldn't have to interpret markup 22:36:33 GV: "any information that is conveyed through color must also be conveyed through text" 22:36:47 JS: Cannot do that because some things don't have text, like graphics 22:37:29 GV: we could have two items: 'without having to interpret color' and 'by using characters or text' 22:38:11 GV: if you have a subway map with two colors, wouldn't it be great if one was dotted? that was covered in our original proposal 22:39:26 MB: Could you make the requirement to use character/text at level 3? 22:39:40 -Michael_Cooper 22:40:28 David has joined #wai-wcag 22:40:47 test 22:40:59 GV: unless we require at level 1 something that AT should handle, we need to patch it at level 2 22:41:34 Am I in? 22:41:55 Thx I'm in the Matrix 22:43:10 GV: we could say "it must be evident without having to interpret color, e.g. through context or characters that accompany the color coding or through patterns" 22:43:49 Level 1 Any information conveyed through color can also be programmatically determined 22:44:11 -MikeBarta 22:44:34 Level 2 Any informtiaont that is conveyed through color must also be visually evident without havingt to interpret color. 22:44:57 (for example through context or or characters 22:44:57 or symbols that accompany the color coding 22:45:37 or through pattern difference such as dotted red and solid green line in a graph. 22:47:33 -Avi 22:47:50 Level 1 also has similar examples 22:48:43 GV: For level 1, example: "For example through markup or unique characters or symbols that accompany the coding" 22:49:09 GV: we will specify in techniques what markup we want 22:49:23 GV: Should we use this language and post it to the list? 22:49:56 -Alex_Li 22:49:57 -Becky_Gibson 22:49:57 -Loretta_Guarino_Reid 22:49:58 -Yvette_Hoitink 22:49:59 -David_MacDonald 22:50:00 -John_Slatin 22:50:00 -Kerstin 22:50:01 -Bengt_Farre 22:50:03 WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has ended 22:50:05 Attendees were Avi, Yvette_Hoitink, Alex_Li, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Michael_Cooper, Bengt_farre, John_Slatin, MikeBarta, Becky_Gibson, Gregg_and_Ben, Chris_Ridpath, Kerstin, 22:50:07 GV: no objections to not talking about this anymore today 22:50:08 ... David_MacDonald 22:50:14 :-) 22:50:15 bengt_ has left #wai-wcag 22:50:24 Ben, can you do the log-thingy? 22:50:37 I think the RRSagent needs some commands now 22:50:56 RRSagent, make log world 22:51:02 something like that, IIRC 22:51:10 RRSagent, help 22:52:17 BEN? 22:52:29 anyone? 22:52:38 zakim, who's on the phone? 22:52:38 sorry, Yvette_Hoitink, I don't know what conference this is; apparently WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has ended 22:52:40 On IRC I see David, ben, RRSAgent, ChrisR, rellero, Zakim, Yvette_Hoitink 22:53:06 DOES ANYONE KNOW if I need to give the RRSagent any more commands? 22:53:22 ------------------------------------------------------------- 22:53:33 earth to Ben 22:54:13 RRSAgent, make log world 22:54:19 RRSAgent, bye 22:54:19 I see no action items