IRC log of wai-wcag on 2004-10-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

02:36:50 [mikba]
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08:03:06 [wendy]
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08:03:29 [Zakim]
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08:03:38 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
08:03:38 [Zakim]
sorry, wendy, I don't know what conference this is
08:03:39 [Zakim]
On IRC I see wendy, Andi, sh1m, ben, Makoto, mikba, RRSAgent, sh1mmer
08:03:48 [wendy]
zakim, this will be wcagc
08:03:48 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled near this time, wendy
08:03:50 [wendy]
zakim, this will be wcag
08:03:50 [Zakim]
ok, wendy; I see WAI_WCAG(f2f)4:00AM scheduled to start 3 minutes ago
08:03:58 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG(f2f)4:00AM has now started
08:04:06 [Zakim]
+Mike_Barta
08:04:15 [wendy]
zakim, call wendy-617
08:04:15 [Zakim]
ok, wendy; the call is being made
08:04:16 [Zakim]
+Wendy
08:04:34 [wendy]
zakim, drop wendy
08:04:34 [Zakim]
Wendy is being disconnected
08:04:35 [Zakim]
-Wendy
08:04:53 [wendy]
zakim, call wendy-617
08:04:53 [Zakim]
ok, wendy; the call is being made
08:04:54 [Zakim]
-Mike_Barta
08:04:55 [Zakim]
+Mike_Barta
08:04:56 [Zakim]
+Wendy
08:05:14 [ben]
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08:05:32 [nabe]
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08:05:36 [David_MacDonald]
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08:05:57 [David_MacDonald]
Hidi Ho
08:06:55 [wendy]
present: matt may, tom croucher, andi snow-weaver, becky gibson, don evans, kerstin goldsmith, michael cooper, gez lemon, wendy chisholm, makoto ueki, takayuki watanabe, yvette hoitink, gregg vanderheiden, ben caldwell
08:07:04 [wendy]
(in the room)
08:07:05 [Michael]
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08:07:09 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
08:07:09 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Mike_Barta, Wendy
08:08:57 [Kerstin]
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08:09:12 [Zakim]
+??P1
08:09:18 [Kerstin]
Mornin' Mike
08:09:28 [wendy]
action: create wbs forms after november draft for css, html, scripting techniques to revote based on uaag as baseline discussion/proposal
08:10:13 [wendy]
zakim, action 3= wendy create wbs forms after november draft for css, html, scripting techniques to revote based on uaag as baseline discussion/proposa
08:10:13 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'action 3= wendy create wbs forms after november draft for css, html, scripting techniques to revote based on uaag as baseline discussion/proposa', wendy
08:10:23 [wendy]
action 3= wendy create wbs forms after november draft for css, html, scripting techniques to revote based on uaag as baseline discussion/proposa
08:10:36 [David_MacDonald]
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08:11:56 [Kerstin]
1am in Seattle for Mike, 4am for David -- very committed members ....
08:15:32 [David_MacDonald]
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08:16:00 [Kerstin]
MC's suggestion is to talk in IRC and listen on the phone --
08:16:46 [ben]
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08:16:49 [David_MacDonald]
My mother has been trying to keep me from speaking for years
08:17:06 [Kerstin]
:-)
08:17:18 [Kerstin]
talk all you want right here!
08:17:27 [Kerstin]
We are looking at JIS comments
08:17:31 [ben]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-comments-wcag20/2004Sep/0008.html
08:17:47 [wendy]
since we have comments from 3 groups (DRC, JIS, and RNID) what if we broke into 3 groups to create proposals to close?
08:18:16 [Kerstin]
Propose -- sounds good to me.
08:18:53 [MattDUB]
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08:19:49 [Kerstin]
GV: very close to closing on some language items -- because guests are here from Ja, wanted to go through those that are specific to culture -- then, we can break up and go over the rest
08:20:00 [Kerstin]
gv: very concerned about the ones dealing with lang and cult.
08:20:27 [Kerstin]
guys on the phone, can you hear Gregg?
08:20:33 [David_MacDonald]
yup
08:20:50 [Kerstin]
cool
08:21:29 [Kerstin]
gv: comment about AT not all having java accessible APIs
08:21:58 [Kerstin]
andi: ja version of jaws does not support java?
08:22:08 [Kerstin]
gv: access bridge support is not good
08:22:51 [Kerstin]
tak: jaws is very expensive in ja, and could be that AB support is minimal, or possibly not at all
08:23:20 [Kerstin]
q+ yvette
08:23:31 [Kerstin]
ack yvett
08:23:46 [Kerstin]
yh: will there be support for AB in future?
08:23:52 [Kerstin]
q+ kerstin
08:23:56 [gregg]
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08:24:03 [Kerstin]
tak: possibility is very low
08:24:55 [Kerstin]
gv: AB support for java is so important -- but it may not be as easy as it sounds, in the US people have spent a lot of time and money making it work
08:25:06 [gregg]
q?
08:25:14 [Kerstin]
gv: if in ja, everyone is indicating this problem, may be harder ...
08:25:19 [Kerstin]
q+ andi
08:25:22 [Kerstin]
ack andi
08:25:36 [Kerstin]
andi: applet is ua, right?
08:25:52 [Kerstin]
yh: but must interoperate with screenreader ... if there is nothing to pick up the hooks?
08:26:34 [Kerstin]
gv: what we don't want is to say we are going to make commodore computers, and therefore everyone must make self-voicing ...
08:26:50 [Kerstin]
gv: the user is the fourth leg on the stool, as yvette said ..
08:27:27 [Kerstin]
gv: if in other countries the AT is not going to support it, then we have to figure some way to work this ....
08:29:34 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
08:29:34 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Mike_Barta, Wendy, David_MacDonald
08:29:40 [Kerstin]
ack kersitn
08:29:45 [Kerstin]
ack kerstin
08:30:39 [Kerstin]
andi: FS owns ja jaws
08:31:25 [Kerstin]
gv: is there something in uaag that addresses Asst. Tch?
08:31:42 [Kerstin]
matt: it does, yes -- says support acc
08:31:56 [Kerstin]
gv: we are adopting standards for commercial ua, as well as AT
08:32:10 [Kerstin]
gv: assuming AT has baseline to handle ..
08:33:20 [Kerstin]
wendy: we are assuming that AT has the resp. to support acc features, assuming resp. does not belong with content dev's
08:33:40 [Kerstin]
gv: we do have the question that if we assume that the world is only as good as it is today, then loadis on author
08:34:05 [Kerstin]
gv: if we assume ideal, everyone has to do their own thing, if anyone falls down, then users fall in the bottom of the gully
08:34:16 [wendy]
q+ yvette
08:34:35 [Kerstin]
gv: users losing is the worst evil, so we put resp. on the developers of content
08:35:07 [Kerstin]
gv: standards say X, but ... "until user agents ..." in a separate gap analysis document
08:35:40 [wendy]
q+ to say, "'interim' techniques?"
08:35:52 [wendy]
ack yvette
08:35:53 [Kerstin]
ack yv
08:36:23 [gregg]
q+
08:36:29 [Kerstin]
yv: authors can do this to bridge the gap, maybe it's a third party job to do that -- we make guidelines that authors implement
08:36:38 [wendy]
ack wendy
08:36:38 [Zakim]
wendy, you wanted to say, "'interim' techniques?"
08:36:40 [Kerstin]
yv: without all the burden -- maybe it's legislation
08:36:49 [Kerstin]
wendy: are you concerned about it being in the sc?
08:36:52 [David_MacDonald]
louder wedy
08:37:25 [Kerstin]
yv: no, even if it were a note -- if we set up a "how you bridge the gap" people will interpret W3C as saying "you should do this"
08:37:40 [Kerstin]
yv: people will think w3c says bridge the gap
08:37:44 [Kerstin]
wendy: interum techniques
08:37:53 [sh1m]
q+ tom
08:38:10 [Kerstin]
wc: today, here are the user agent issues we know about, therefore do XYZ
08:38:25 [Kerstin]
yh: if it's not in guidelines, then fine
08:38:31 [Kerstin]
q+ kerstin
08:39:21 [Kerstin]
gv: it would be in a separate document -- interum techniques
08:39:26 [Michael]
q+
08:39:27 [Kerstin]
ack gre
08:39:50 [Kerstin]
gv: if we put them in checklist, they become normative
08:40:07 [Kerstin]
gv: oh, by the way, here is a summary of interum techniques that you ought to consider ...
08:40:10 [Kerstin]
ack tom
08:40:24 [Kerstin]
tom: this was what I was suggesting, but now disagree
08:40:39 [Kerstin]
tom: anything with w3c will be taken as endorsement
08:40:45 [Kerstin]
tom: taken as part of the overall solution
08:41:01 [gregg]
q+
08:41:13 [Kerstin]
tom: list of known issues -- we doc gap guidelines versue uaag
08:41:29 [Kerstin]
tom: w3c is not going to give you solutions, but we will heavily doc the problem
08:41:35 [wendy]
q+ gez
08:41:43 [sh1m]
ack tom
08:41:57 [Michael]
ack kerstin
08:42:42 [Andi]
q+
08:42:48 [wendy]
kg i share tom's concern, when you put "w3c" on it, even if it is in techniques....we have found that anything related to guidelines are looked at as "law" - they take the non-normative and make it the law.
08:43:22 [wendy]
kg is using the term "law" loosely - not legislative
08:44:06 [wendy]
kg fine to make the analysis, but our job is to say, "you have html here is what you have to make it accessible to user agents that are doing what they are supposed to be doing"
08:44:13 [wendy]
q- gez
08:44:18 [Kerstin]
mc: wendy said on irc what I was going to say
08:44:37 [Kerstin]
mc: if you build a temp bridge, you'll never get a permanent bridge
08:44:57 [Kerstin]
mc: i am concerned that if we do not advocate STRONGLY "the right way" noone will see the need to get there
08:45:11 [Kerstin]
mc: I am concerned about present day acc, which is why I feel split
08:45:16 [David_MacDonald]
+q
08:45:17 [sh1m]
q+ Tom to say that if we document the gap and link to good resource sites then we will go a lot of the way to helping developers fix the gap
08:45:26 [Kerstin]
mc: my job is to tell people 'here is what you need to do'
08:45:27 [sh1m]
q+ David
08:45:49 [Kerstin]
mc: I have that same desire to see real support, but the temp bridge will continue the trend of "it's good enough"
08:46:23 [wendy]
"until user agents.... use wcag 1.0" ;)
08:46:31 [Kerstin]
mc: one idea, wcag 2.0 is future support with uaag compliant browser, with strong message from w3c as rec, wag 1.0 is for temp
08:47:57 [Kerstin]
mc's opinion is setting of fireworks outside in DUblin
08:48:00 [Kerstin]
:-)
08:48:43 [Kerstin]
mc cont.: coming to the perspective that the w3c needs to make a rec., wcag 1.0 exists as interum support
08:48:49 [ben]
q+
08:49:02 [wendy]
q+ to say "until user agents...use wcag 1.0. :) we can update the wcag 1.0 techniques. probably implies need to publish edited rec"
08:49:11 [Kerstin]
mc: one of the things we are doing with 2.0 is us disassociating ourselves with the problems
08:49:15 [Kerstin]
ack M
08:49:28 [Kerstin]
gv: I was the one who said if we build a temp bridge ....
08:49:32 [sh1m]
ack gregg
08:49:34 [wendy]
ack gregg
08:49:36 [Kerstin]
gv: I am in the same place that Mc is
08:49:52 [Kerstin]
gv: I don't think we can just say 'this is the way it should be ....'
08:50:13 [Kerstin]
gv: academics are accused of this all the time ... people who live in the real world suffer.
08:50:24 [Kerstin]
q+ kerstin
08:50:46 [Kerstin]
q+ kerstin to say that the analysis of what it means to use uaag as the baseline, true impact on users today, and the KNOWN tomorrow, is
08:50:49 [wendy]
q+ to say, "other work going on about support for WCAG 1.0. esp alistair's work. until user agents...use wcag 1.0. :) we can update the wcag 1.0 techniques. probably implies need to publish edited rec. they helping to make the bridge."
08:51:34 [wendy]
have to make our assumptions clear to policy makers so they have a good idea of when to cross the bridge
08:51:51 [Kerstin]
wendy, can you minute for two minutes? :)
08:51:54 [Kerstin]
coffee .....
08:52:37 [wendy]
gv wcag 1.0 could cover the gap. what about contradictions in wcag 1.0 and wcag 2.0? could say which one to choose, but not that you must do both.
08:52:58 [wendy]
gv we have to figure out politically what woiuld happen. think we need to be careful or we could perpetuate the issue and not get the user agents to do what they need.
08:53:10 [wendy]
gv in some countries it may not be able to get user agents as powerful as uaag suggests.
08:53:17 [wendy]
yh then they could follow wcag 1.0
08:53:20 [Michael]
q+ to say yes, WCAG 1.0 and 2.0 do contradict in certain small ways at the techniques level but maybe there can be support materials (not necessarily from WCAG WG or even WAI) to help with that?
08:53:28 [wendy]
gv an interesting solution is to examine if wcag 1.0 meets all of the needs that we have.
08:53:45 [wendy]
gv those countries could say, "for materials prepared for our consituents..."
08:54:04 [wendy]
gv we all need to be looking at wcag 1.0, especially internationally to see if it addresses the issues."
08:54:54 [wendy]
ack andi
08:55:02 [Kerstin]
wendy, I can minute again?
08:55:14 [wendy]
asw the gap analysis is good, but why would we assume that if there is a gap then authors need to do it.
08:55:23 [wendy]
no (ha). yes please.
08:55:43 [Kerstin]
andi: maybe gov's can help to push these needs
08:56:01 [Zakim]
+John_Slatin
08:56:18 [Kerstin]
gv: these are not in the "have to" they are in the "you could do these"
08:57:22 [Kerstin]
andi: if the w3c identifies the gap, and puts it into author's lap, then it might/will get into legislation as "must" not "may":
08:57:41 [sh1m]
ack Tom
08:57:41 [Zakim]
Tom, you wanted to say that if we document the gap and link to good resource sites then we will go a lot of the way to helping developers fix the gap
08:57:43 [Kerstin]
gv: tom suggested someone else does the doc-ing of the issue ... could be useful
08:58:18 [Kerstin]
tom: solutions: first off, Andi's point is really, really good -- if w3c's emphasizes that the opinion of the wg is that the resp. is on the ua
08:58:46 [Kerstin]
tom: on the other hand, we don't want to leave the users in the lurch.
08:59:23 [Kerstin]
tom: valid to find some way to bridge the gap on developers, because they are used to this because of browser wars that exist outside of acc anyway
08:59:52 [Kerstin]
tom: if we say 'this is what will be missing between wcag and uaag' with a list of quality sites that bridge the gap outside of w3c
09:00:17 [Kerstin]
tom: solution to allowing content dev's to bridge gap, space is properly doc-ed, if not, they will miss things
09:00:50 [Kerstin]
gv: possibly, we should be using the word GAP, and use the phrase "UA shortfall"
09:01:19 [Kerstin]
gv: and possibly two shortfall doc's - one for authors and one for ua
09:01:34 [DonEvans]
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09:01:45 [Kerstin]
talking points
09:02:09 [Kerstin]
we are all safer because ....
09:02:14 [Kerstin]
political joke
09:02:21 [Kerstin]
US political jok
09:02:25 [David_MacDonald]
I'm hoping the Guidelines are generic enough that we don't have to get tripped in the technical shortcomings of the environment. Normative. I'm hoping that we can address these problem and interim issues in the technical docs which are hopfully "flexible" (evergreen) and can adapt to the environment as it evolves.
09:02:45 [ben]
ack David
09:03:11 [Kerstin]
mc gave you the "rock on!" symbol
09:04:12 [Kerstin]
ack be
09:04:25 [Kerstin]
ben: temp bridge
09:05:04 [Kerstin]
ben: is it true? less to do with delivering a consistent message over the course of time
09:05:55 [Kerstin]
gv: long discussions don't get anywhere, but this one is coming together in a really good way ... LONGDESC, if properly phrased and properly encouraged, we can possibly do both with shortfall analyses
09:06:05 [Kerstin]
ack endy
09:06:06 [wendy]
ack wendy
09:06:06 [Zakim]
wendy, you wanted to say "until user agents...use wcag 1.0. :) we can update the wcag 1.0 techniques. probably implies need to publish edited rec" and to say, "other work going on
09:06:08 [Kerstin]
ack wendy
09:06:10 [Zakim]
... about support for WCAG 1.0. esp alistair's work. until user agents...use wcag 1.0. :) we can update the wcag 1.0 techniques. probably implies need to publish edited rec. they
09:06:14 [Zakim]
... helping to make the bridge."
09:06:46 [gregg]
q+
09:06:53 [Kerstin]
wc: alistair is doing some good work, looking at 1.0 tech and mapping to 2.0 tech
09:07:01 [Kerstin]
wc: which helps provide that bridge
09:07:15 [Kerstin]
wc: knowing that this is going on, allows us to move on with our work --
09:07:37 [Kerstin]
wc: we need to bridge that gap, the work that folks in eu are doing and the work we are doing
09:07:59 [Kerstin]
wc: we need to send this around for review to everyone in november draft
09:08:11 [Kerstin]
wc: highlight work lisa is doing
09:08:12 [bengt]
bengt has joined #wai-wcag
09:08:37 [bengt]
zakim, who is on the phone ?
09:08:37 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Mike_Barta, Wendy, David_MacDonald, John_Slatin
09:08:41 [Kerstin]
wc: server side AT is being created by lisa, if we push the market, we will see more of this developing
09:09:00 [Zakim]
+??P3
09:09:04 [Kerstin]
wc: last thing: if needed, we can update wcag 1.0, and this might imply publishing an edited rec for 1.0
09:09:16 [bengt]
zakim, ??P3 is bengt
09:09:16 [Zakim]
+bengt; got it
09:09:25 [Kerstin]
wc: we may want to consider how all the pieces fit together ...
09:09:33 [Kerstin]
ack kerstin
09:09:33 [Zakim]
kerstin, you wanted to say that the analysis of what it means to use uaag as the baseline, true impact on users today, and the KNOWN tomorrow, is
09:09:50 [wendy]
kg wanted to reiterate what we talked about yesterday.
09:10:20 [wendy]
kg i hear people saying, we are afraid of leaving disabled users behind. there is a delta between wcag 2.0 and uaag.
09:10:40 [wendy]
kg we talked of an analysis of where people would be if uaag isn't followed.
09:11:14 [wendy]
kg difficult to do that analysis for the world, but it is important to lookk at the shortfall.
09:11:23 [wendy]
kg so we can document, this is where people will have difficulty.
09:11:30 [wendy]
kg perhaps it is not as big of an impact as we think.
09:11:36 [wendy]
kg data is gooood
09:11:38 [Michael]
ack michael
09:11:38 [Zakim]
Michael, you wanted to say yes, WCAG 1.0 and 2.0 do contradict in certain small ways at the techniques level but maybe there can be support materials (not necessarily from WCAG WG
09:11:41 [Zakim]
... or even WAI) to help with that?
09:11:57 [Kerstin]
mc: this is way back (wai back)
09:11:59 [Kerstin]
ha ha
09:12:56 [Kerstin]
mc: if there are contradictions, there can be support materials around this ... we don't have to believe that we have to create the support materials ..
09:13:22 [Kerstin]
mc: someone else could provide those materials.
09:13:28 [Kerstin]
ack gre
09:13:38 [Kerstin]
gv: wendy said some really good things
09:13:42 [Kerstin]
gv: we should vote
09:14:15 [Kerstin]
gv: on november draft -- this is where we are going, but this is not fully reflected in the draft ..
09:14:24 [Kerstin]
gv: put it in as a BIG EDITOR'S NOTE.
09:14:33 [Kerstin]
q+ yvette
09:14:43 [Kerstin]
gv: think about it, we will vote later
09:15:10 [Kerstin]
gv: analysis for matt and ben should be done to ensure no hole in the back of our boat.
09:15:25 [Kerstin]
gv: adoption in other countries might lag, but that might not be bad ...
09:16:24 [Kerstin]
gv: if you want wcag 2.0, then get the user agents up to snuff.
09:16:34 [Kerstin]
gv: it might delay adoption, but in a healthy way
09:16:47 [Kerstin]
gv: help the world get up to speed so we CAN adopt 2.0
09:17:06 [Kerstin]
gv: we all agree that we need to get the load off the authors to bridge the shortfull (not! gap)
09:17:24 [Kerstin]
gv: UBAccess, what is their business model?
09:18:15 [Kerstin]
gv: I keep saying free, but I don't know that.
09:18:52 [Kerstin]
gv: it's probably harder for big companies to do transcoding work than smaller companies -- copyright issues have been hit in the past
09:19:59 [Kerstin]
mc: UBAccess -- they add acc features ..
09:20:28 [Kerstin]
yvette: UBAccess is ensuring that the author shortfall is bridged
09:20:36 [Kerstin]
wc: also AT shortfalls, though --
09:20:58 [Kerstin]
* kerstin thinks that we should have a good demo of Lisa's work
09:22:10 [Kerstin]
John Slatin: would someone send me the references for UBAccess
09:22:18 [Kerstin]
q+ yvette
09:22:33 [Kerstin]
q- yvette
09:22:37 [Kerstin]
ack J
09:23:16 [Kerstin]
action= yvette will investigate the Netherlands' uaag analysis impact
09:23:44 [Kerstin]
action yvette will investiage the Netherlands' uaag analysis impact
09:24:00 [Kerstin]
wendy, how do you do action items in irc?
09:24:07 [Michael]
action: yvette will investigate the Netherlands' uaag analysis impact
09:24:48 [wendy]
kerstin type, "action: [name] [action]"
09:25:05 [Kerstin]
yv: some people actually use DE screenreaders
09:25:37 [Kerstin]
yv: no screenreader for Dutch (or Flemmish)
09:27:57 [wendy]
q+ to say, "not only wcag 1.0 as helping the shortfall, but also 508 and jis guidelines"
09:28:08 [Kerstin]
gv: is the general consensus that we should (a) do the uaag analysis, and unless we turn up some big issue, that we should plan on this being included (wcag 2.0 looks to the future, based on uaag, we will be doing shortfall anal. -- wcag 1.0 can be what people are looking at if they feel that wcag 2.0 is not support enough)
09:28:30 [Kerstin]
ack D
09:28:31 [wendy]
ack david
09:28:43 [Kerstin]
David: HAL supports Dutch
09:28:59 [Kerstin]
Andi: text to speech, FLUENTDUTCH, presumably there is an engine
09:29:02 [Kerstin]
ack wendy
09:29:02 [Zakim]
wendy, you wanted to say, "not only wcag 1.0 as helping the shortfall, but also 508 and jis guidelines"
09:29:22 [Kerstin]
wc: it's not only wcag 1.0, but 508 and JIS
09:29:44 [Kerstin]
wc: maybe we are not addressing Takayuki's concerns with 2.0 (layout tables, etc..)?
09:29:51 [Kerstin]
wc: think so -- but ...?
09:29:57 [Kerstin]
q+ takayuki
09:30:01 [Kerstin]
ack tak
09:31:08 [Kerstin]
wc: our discussion started with JIS comments -- want to make sure that you feel, takayuki, that using wcag 1.0 would help with the concerns that you have?
09:31:28 [Kerstin]
wc: because of JIS and wcag 1.0 covering those concerns?
09:31:49 [Kerstin]
tak: I am ok - I think it's also important that ja and international situation is important ..
09:32:23 [Kerstin]
wc: because JIS covers layout tables and frames and language issues, do you feel that JIS can help bridge the gap between 1.0 and 2.0?
09:32:59 [Kerstin]
2.0 will not cover the issues you address in your comments, do you feel that using JIS and wcag 1.0 in the interim would work?
09:33:05 [Andi]
From http://www.magnifiers.org/speech.html, the Dutch company Kompagne is developing interfaces for the screen magnifier ZoomText Xtra and the screen reader Window-Eyes, Jaws for Windows and ouSPOKEN For Windows.
09:33:06 [Andi]
Users of these accessibility feature, who want Dutch speech support, can take advantage of these interfaces soon.
09:34:19 [Kerstin]
gv: JIS can be what JA works with today -- we can move to 2.0 when we have the tools and ua that allow us to move from JIS and wcag 1.0 to wcag 2.0?
09:35:27 [Kerstin]
gv: big companies can invest time and effort in getting tools to be better ....
09:38:30 [Kerstin]
tak: yes, this helps to resolve our concerns, but
09:39:01 [Kerstin]
tak: harmonization, what Judy Brewer says, we should have only one standard -- I am afraid that this is not moving toward the one standard concern
09:39:50 [Kerstin]
gv: the way that we have restructured wcag 2.0, in JA the techniques and checklists could be JA specific
09:40:35 [Kerstin]
gv: on the techniques level, we could say that there might be lang-specific issues addressed
09:40:44 [sh1m]
q?
09:40:48 [Kerstin]
q+ kerstin
09:41:11 [wendy]
q+ to ask, "add issue for language/culture/region-specific checklists and what that means for test suite"
09:41:39 [Kerstin]
q+ kerstin to say that I don't think that was Takayuki's question -- I think he is asking "what is the impact on harmonization of one standard worldwide in the present and future?"
09:41:44 [Kerstin]
ack J
09:42:58 [Kerstin]
js: wcag 2.0 as the future: just want clarification
09:43:16 [Kerstin]
js: but I don't want you to have to repeat your whole morning
09:43:22 [Kerstin]
gv: go ahead, John:
09:44:18 [Kerstin]
js: wacg 2.0 pointing towards the future, with wcag 1.0 as interum
09:44:39 [Kerstin]
gv: repeat question: in order for our standard to be adopted, we have to have 2 examples of successful implementations
09:44:44 [Michael]
q+ to say implementations can be other things besides UAs - eval, model sites, etc.
09:45:04 [Kerstin]
if it's a standard for the future, and there is no UA
09:45:20 [Kerstin]
gv: we don't have to pass the UA, we just have to have successful impl. of our guidelines
09:45:44 [Kerstin]
gv: we would be able to have 2 implementations, and a set of UA to analyze all of the aspects.
09:46:03 [Kerstin]
gv: shortfalls: author shortfalls we would not have, UA shortfalls are not our issue.
09:46:21 [Michael]
q-
09:46:28 [nabe]
q+ to say that Wendy's suggestion makes Japan easy to adjust our Techniques and Checklists locally.
09:46:57 [Kerstin]
q- kerstin
09:47:03 [wendy]
ack wendy
09:47:03 [Zakim]
wendy, you wanted to ask, "add issue for language/culture/region-specific checklists and what that means for test suite"
09:48:47 [Kerstin]
gv: conc. speech, multi-lingual speech, that is including orphaned in the past like Hebrew
09:50:08 [Kerstin]
wc: gregg's response was about lang checklist -- we have a lot of work to do on checklists, we need to be considering this in our checklist dicsussion
09:50:21 [Kerstin]
wc; concern on what is the impact on test suites?
09:51:41 [Kerstin]
watanabe-san: there is no specific sc in guidelines to address lang issues for ja
09:53:02 [Kerstin]
tw: I would be happy if there were some sc that we could drop our phrase into?
09:53:02 [Kerstin]
(phrase about lang-spec issues)
09:53:02 [Kerstin]
gv: lang-specific variations of all of our documents may be problematic
09:53:02 [Kerstin]
gv: lang-spec should be in the checklist - if the site is ja, then .... xyz
09:53:40 [Kerstin]
gv: site has (a) html, (b) css, (c) japanese, or multi-lingual -- and then the checklist would list the needs for those aspects of a site
09:54:38 [Kerstin]
gv: if it's really important to do, then what is the principle that it falls into -- if the principle is missing, then we need to add it to the guidelines/sc
09:55:02 [Kerstin]
gv: I want to retract my statement about several variations of checklists
09:55:35 [Kerstin]
gv: does everyone agree 1) analysis, then step 2) approach for uaag, and 3) language specific checklist ITEMS ..
09:55:36 [Kerstin]
YES!
09:55:40 [Kerstin]
we are breaking.
09:55:58 [Kerstin]
we are spelling
09:56:01 [Zakim]
-Mike_Barta
09:56:04 [Zakim]
-John_Slatin
09:57:17 [Zakim]
-bengt
09:58:01 [Zakim]
-David_MacDonald
10:12:17 [Michael]
Michael has joined #wai-wcag
10:13:52 [gregg]
we are back
10:17:15 [Michael]
in spirit if not in body
10:19:01 [wendy]
shawn worked up a redesign prototype based on WAI site redesign work and on our prototype from july f2f: http://www.w3.org/2004/10/wcag2-nav/wcag20cover.html
10:19:11 [Zakim]
+??P0
10:19:12 [Zakim]
-??P0
10:19:13 [Zakim]
+??P0
10:19:30 [bengt]
zakim, ??P0 is bengt
10:19:30 [Zakim]
+bengt; got it
10:19:41 [Zakim]
+??P1
10:19:47 [Zakim]
+Mike_Barta
10:19:54 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phonoe?
10:19:54 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, wendy.
10:20:00 [David_MacDonald]
zakim, ??P1 is David_MacDonald
10:20:00 [Zakim]
+David_MacDonald; got it
10:20:00 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
10:20:01 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Wendy, bengt, David_MacDonald, Mike_Barta
10:20:48 [Kerstin]
in exchange for laundry, I will minute ALL DAY, Wendy.
10:22:14 [wendy]
i will do laundry more often! thanks kerstin
10:23:04 [Kerstin]
continuing with JIS comments on wcag 2.0
10:23:13 [Kerstin]
robust is difficult in ja
10:23:27 [Kerstin]
the word 'robust'
10:24:00 [Kerstin]
gv: 'robust' means something that can handle things that are not up to spec ....
10:24:29 [Kerstin]
yvette: another word in Dutch means 'it won't break no matter what you do'
10:24:57 [Kerstin]
wc: the goal is interoperable
10:25:25 [Kerstin]
gv: "easily compatible" was changed to 'robust'
10:26:01 [Kerstin]
gv: maybe we just put this under advisement .... since 4.1 and 4.2 have alwyas been our problem children ..
10:26:12 [Kerstin]
gv: in light of our newer uaag discussion, we should revisit 4
10:26:40 [Kerstin]
gv: we need to think about it
10:27:10 [Kerstin]
'robust' is under advisement as not working in several languages
10:28:32 [Kerstin]
wc: we need better summary word for that section == bottom up, 4.1 & 4.2 clarification, then 'robust' work
10:30:58 [wendy]
it is trying to say, "when content is updated often, people with physical disabilities (using scanning software) may not have time to complete a task or finish reading before the content is updated again" i.e., sometimes it takes people longer because of the tools they are using and that's why time limits need to be extended. when they are extended, people have enough time to complete tasks.
10:31:35 [Zakim]
+John_Slatin
10:31:36 [Kerstin]
gv: recommend that we change the guideline, take all detail out
10:31:36 [Kerstin]
gv: it should not do things that are provocative
10:31:36 [Kerstin]
gv: to people with photo-sensitive epilepsy
10:31:38 [Kerstin]
andi: guideline should not specify a tool
10:32:07 [Kerstin]
gv: should not supercede country health requirements ...
10:32:35 [gregg]
q?
10:32:44 [gregg]
ack nabe
10:32:44 [Zakim]
nabe, you wanted to say that Wendy's suggestion makes Japan easy to adjust our Techniques and Checklists locally.
10:34:54 [Andi]
q+
10:35:00 [Kerstin]
gv: as we go forward, we can use exp. and research ....
10:35:54 [Kerstin]
gv: we don't do things that are provocative, and then we let research and health guidelines work that out
10:36:00 [Kerstin]
ack A
10:36:11 [Kerstin]
andi: if we do what you suggest, is the sc still testable
10:37:15 [Kerstin]
good question, andi
10:37:15 [Kerstin]
gv: yes, because there are established principles about what is provocative.
10:37:17 [Kerstin]
andi: can we make it more specific -- "does not violate known thresholds ...."
10:37:28 [Kerstin]
gv: checklist could include this specificity?
10:37:53 [Kerstin]
gv: checklists might need to be normative.
10:38:11 [Kerstin]
gv: good point, if specificity is removed, is it still testable --
10:38:38 [Kerstin]
gv: we might be able to say, 'as determined by the joint international such-and-such ...'
10:39:15 [Kerstin]
gv: england has a lot of focus, japan has a lot of cartoons like the one that caused the big problem with kids, eu because of 50 H
10:39:39 [Kerstin]
ack J
10:41:29 [Kerstin]
gv: 8 or more links ... not lang specific
10:41:41 [Kerstin]
gv: we'll let that one go.
10:41:59 [Kerstin]
q+ yvette
10:42:19 [Kerstin]
gv: skipping over JIS comments that are not lang-specific, so we can address them with other comments from other groups
10:43:06 [wendy]
ah, right, the use of "perceived pages" would not be helped by the DIWG definition for perceivable units.
10:43:42 [Kerstin]
gv: we have hit all items that we don't already understand, the ones that are global we will put into bugzilla ..
10:43:49 [wendy]
In documents greater than 50,000 words or sites larger than 50 perceived pages, at least one of the following is provided.
10:43:55 [Kerstin]
ack y
10:44:28 [Kerstin]
yh: ja you assume a higher level of intelligence, where we lead people by the nose in the west and tell them exactly.
10:45:29 [Kerstin]
yh: when I looked at JIS just now, I read a lot of things that seem untestable, but seem to me very logical for people who know what they are doing. do you feel like wcag 2.0 is so specific that it would be insulting ja intelligence, and might be perceived as culturally insensitive?
10:45:41 [Kerstin]
nabe: no, it's the format
10:45:56 [Kerstin]
nabe: that is difficult for me
10:47:23 [Kerstin]
wc: page 20, point c, where there is info about using words that might not be interpretable by all people ....
10:47:36 [Kerstin]
ack J
10:47:49 [Kerstin]
js: is JIS translation online?
10:48:57 [Kerstin]
js: can I get the spec. information about the provisions that relate to 3.1
10:49:07 [Kerstin]
wc: will send you what you need, and Lisa's stuff.
10:49:33 [wendy]
fyi: english information about JIS guidelines and how relate to wai - http://www.comm.twcu.ac.jp/~nabe/data/JIS-WAI/
10:49:37 [Kerstin]
tw: it is available on our web store for E100
10:49:54 [Kerstin]
andi: revenue from JIS translations can maybe go to UA shortfalls? :-)
10:50:34 [Kerstin]
tw: I took action item to show some usability-related acc issues, should we discuss.
10:51:01 [wendy]
if want to buy an english copy: http://www.webstore.jsa.or.jp/webstore/Top/indexEn.jsp
10:51:34 [wendy]
(info from Watanabe-san's CSUN presentation)
10:53:00 [wendy]
action: editors write proposal for paragraph for november WD that summarizes resolutions/proposals related to UAAG baseline
10:53:14 [sh1m]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004OctDec/0122.html Watanabe-san's email
10:53:36 [wendy]
action: wendy in november WD request for review, include question about uaag baseline (higlight ednote in intro), and send that request to UAWG and AC reps who build browsers (coord with Matt)
10:54:40 [wendy]
oooh! bugzilla could scan w3.org rdf files for action items!
10:55:30 [sh1m]
heh
10:55:40 [sh1m]
I could write a bot to do that for us
10:55:47 [Kerstin]
gv: if the lang of the page requires it, you need to insert pronunciation hints ... this needs to be added into the guidelines somehow --again, the issue is that bottom-up (techniques first and then guidelines and sc)
10:55:57 [sh1m]
It's not like sh1mmer doesn't live in here anyway :)
10:56:29 [wendy]
http://www.w3.org/2004/10/21-wai-wcag-irc.rdf
10:56:30 [Kerstin]
gv: is showing us that techniques are superceding the guidelines and we will need to adjust -- ja comments need to be added to this bottom-up analysis.
10:56:47 [Kerstin]
gv: this is the same with hebrew, too -- contractions, etc.. -- screenreaders cannot get it from context.
10:57:02 [Kerstin]
gv: investigate whether pages need markup, or better screenreaders ..
10:57:59 [Kerstin]
yh: dutch too has pron. from context
10:58:59 [Kerstin]
gv: if it mis-pronounces, what is the impact on user -- even english screenreaders mispronounce common words ...
10:59:05 [Kerstin]
john: readable font?
11:00:31 [Kerstin]
js: tw had mentioned readable fonts, we spend time about structure being readable, maybe we need to add something about readable fonts .. at some level, then that allows techniques to suggest what that means
11:01:14 [Kerstin]
gv: want to close on JIS, wendy can you post Shawn URI?
11:01:18 [wendy]
http://www.w3.org/2004/10/wcag2-nav/wcag20cover.html
11:02:51 [Kerstin]
gv: we are looking at it here, so we can provide feedback to SHawn
11:03:32 [Kerstin]
wc: also builds on Andi's prototype (with becky) from f2f in July -- which was very similar to the re-design of the wai site
11:03:42 [Kerstin]
gv: this is the wcag part of the wai sit
11:03:42 [Kerstin]
e
11:03:57 [nabe]
Thank you very much for spending so much time discussing JIS comments
11:04:29 [Kerstin]
you're welcome!
11:04:30 [Kerstin]
:-)
11:07:59 [DonEvans]
DonEvans has joined #wai-wcag
11:09:05 [Kerstin]
gv: be good to hear from john about screenreader about expanding outline
11:09:31 [Kerstin]
gv: some people find it really easy, some people find it hard ....
11:10:20 [Kerstin]
kerstin: add parent-child relationship in the markup somehow ... it's possible to do -- is it there?
11:11:55 [Kerstin]
gv: a comment on logic, things that need to be tested
11:13:28 [wendy]
q+ yvette
11:13:28 [Kerstin]
q+ yvette
11:13:51 [Kerstin]
js: volunteering to help with usability testing with Shawn
11:13:52 [wendy]
ack john
11:14:01 [gregg]
ack yve
11:14:02 [Kerstin]
ack yvette
11:15:22 [Kerstin]
yvette: make sure that plus and minus work to expand and collapse
11:15:32 [Kerstin]
wc: this would be the suite of documents
11:15:40 [Kerstin]
wc: this would be considered a compound document
11:16:34 [Kerstin]
gv: tr docs can just be one-peice doc, this could just be a view
11:17:37 [Kerstin]
wc: this could be primary rec, other formats available (html, pdf, printable view, etc..)
11:18:32 [Kerstin]
gv: two topics: using this to show suite, and .... wendy, would the homepage for the gl be like this?
11:18:42 [Kerstin]
wc: re-design WOULD be affecting the gl homepage ....
11:19:25 [Kerstin]
q+ yvette
11:19:41 [Kerstin]
yh: for the record, this is much better.
11:19:41 [Kerstin]
ack y
11:20:09 [mikba]
mikba has joined #wai-wcag
11:20:16 [Kerstin]
q+ kerstin
11:21:04 [Kerstin]
what about breadcrumbs, top navigation?
11:21:24 [Kerstin]
matt: needed to map with the map in people's heads, and in this situation it didn't map very well
11:21:34 [Kerstin]
gv: another positive comment -- continuity with other documents ...
11:22:24 [Kerstin]
gv: other docs meaning techniques, checklists, etc.. -- all works as a suite, which is apparent in this design
11:22:49 [Kerstin]
tom: at one point, we talked about an amazon.com process - might still be useful
11:23:20 [wendy]
tom - do you mean a process for rating? sorry, i missed it.
11:23:51 [Kerstin]
ack k
11:24:11 [ben]
q+
11:24:28 [Kerstin]
ack b
11:25:04 [Kerstin]
ben: question related to publishing slices: where do we talk about such-and-such an element -- have we talked about searching in an online format
11:25:59 [wendy]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/sketchpad/home-8-layout.png
11:26:09 [Kerstin]
js: if we had a search engine would allow us to conform to our own guidelines, as search would allow multiple navigation ...
11:26:20 [wendy]
q+ gez
11:26:48 [Kerstin]
matt: we have w3 google server, but not live yet, and there are issues
11:27:06 [wendy]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/sketchpad/subpage-7-layout.png
11:27:08 [wendy]
ack gez
11:27:15 [wendy]
q+ wendy to show 2 exampels
11:27:26 [wendy]
q+ to say "2 exampls:
11:27:31 [wendy]
q+ to say "2 exampls"
11:27:48 [Kerstin]
jez: alistair mentioned something during techniques about having a search thing ...
11:29:18 [Kerstin]
ack w
11:29:18 [Zakim]
wendy, you wanted to show 2 exampels and to say "2 exampls: and to say "2 exampls"
11:31:58 [wendy]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/components.html
11:33:32 [Kerstin]
yh: take into consideration what people will access MOST frequently -- too hard to get to guidelines and techniques -- need to move them up from level 4 to at least level 2
11:34:18 [wendy]
action: wendy give feedback to shawn on site design and wcag 2.0
11:34:30 [Kerstin]
yh: it's logical, but does not reflect quick access to most frequently accessed
11:34:47 [Kerstin]
andi: quicklinks -- I can show the IBM site for examples of multiple quick nav
11:35:11 [shawn]
shawn has joined #wai-wcag
11:36:35 [Kerstin]
wc: the image and text explain how the user, browser, at, content dev's,e tc.. all fit together -- and how when one piece is broken, it can all break
11:36:49 [Kerstin]
it also shows the chicken and egg issue ....
11:36:51 [Kerstin]
js: cool!
11:37:02 [shawn]
zakim, code?
11:37:02 [Zakim]
the conference code is 9224 (tel:+1.617.761.6200), shawn
11:37:12 [Kerstin]
David -- can you type what you are saying into IRC?
11:37:22 [Zakim]
+Shawn
11:37:36 [Kerstin]
it was hard to hear you ....
11:38:03 [Kerstin]
shawn you have to speak very slowly
11:38:40 [Kerstin]
gv: feedback, quick -- to the site design and wcag 2.0 prototype
11:38:46 [Kerstin]
wendy made some notes -- they are also in IRC
11:38:47 [David_MacDonald]
I think it is very good to have these supporting documents and that they should be front and center in our EO to help overcome the problems of user confusion
11:38:51 [Zakim]
-bengt
11:39:13 [wendy]
shawn - showed your wcag 2.0 mockup, the site redeisgn (8.png), the subpage (7.png), and components
11:39:34 [wendy]
i.e., http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/sketchpad/home-8-layout.png
11:41:47 [wendy]
we all applaud for shawn
11:41:59 [wendy]
shawn - do you have any questions for us?
11:42:21 [Kerstin]
slower, shawn
11:42:37 [Kerstin]
very slowly
11:42:39 [wendy]
vonage is breaking up. didn't understand. can you type?
11:42:54 [Kerstin]
Shawn, can you repeat
11:43:25 [Kerstin]
shawn: appreciate the feedback -- we are thinking of doing images throughout the site, good to get different perspectives on that,
11:43:53 [Kerstin]
shawn: and as you saw, we are thinking of doing hierch. nav throughout site, so additional feedback at any point, I would love to get that soon
11:44:01 [Kerstin]
we heard all of that!!
11:44:04 [Kerstin]
thanks!!
11:44:31 [Kerstin]
feedback can go directly to shawn at shawn@w3.org, yes?
11:45:56 [Kerstin]
shawn: we are doing acc testing, probably not for a couple weeks, john can ....
11:45:58 [wendy]
slh we will be doing usability testing soon
11:46:15 [wendy]
shawn? you are breaking up so badly, we can't hear you.
11:46:21 [wendy]
can you type?
11:46:28 [shawn]
feedback to shawn@w3.org. or if you want it archived, then
11:46:39 [David_MacDonald]
can we come back on analogue
11:46:59 [Kerstin]
shawn, can you type into irc and we can read it?
11:46:59 [Kerstin]
gv: maybe we invite shawn to weekly call to get feedbcak ...
11:47:01 [wendy]
:)
11:47:23 [shawn]
wai-eo-editors@w3.org (and I can forward to appropriate place)
11:47:24 [wendy]
action: gregg/wendy invite shawn to weekly telecon to discuss redesign
11:47:31 [Kerstin]
break
11:47:33 [Kerstin]
for lunch
11:47:39 [shawn]
byw
11:47:41 [shawn]
byw
11:47:44 [David_MacDonald]
can I have some food
11:47:44 [shawn]
bye
11:47:54 [Zakim]
-Mike_Barta
11:47:59 [Zakim]
-John_Slatin
11:48:00 [Zakim]
-Wendy
11:48:01 [Zakim]
-Shawn
11:48:03 [Zakim]
-David_MacDonald
11:48:04 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG(f2f)4:00AM has ended
11:48:05 [Zakim]
Attendees were Mike_Barta, Wendy, David_MacDonald, John_Slatin, bengt, Shawn
12:43:31 [jslatin]
jslatin has joined #wai-wcag
12:52:06 [bcaldwell]
bcaldwell has joined #wai-wcag
12:54:34 [bcaldwell]
hi guys - we're calling back in now (on an analog line)
12:56:11 [sh1m]
wc: few weeks ago we had an action item to talk to the DI group about different devices
12:56:22 [sh1m]
wc: we agreed that our view could be similar
12:56:31 [sh1m]
wc: tue/wed metadata for content
12:57:26 [sh1m]
wc: view from image in component document, user use client tools to access tools, authors using authoring tools to create content. uaag for clients, wcag for authors
12:58:06 [sh1m]
wc: moved to model which supports renogociation
12:58:20 [sh1m]
wc: fit what we discussed into the model from the workshop
12:59:15 [sh1m]
wc: UA can include some adapation services as can the author
12:59:41 [sh1m]
wc: as long as is what is author responsible is authored unit
13:00:54 [Andi]
Andi has joined #wai-wcag
13:01:11 [sh1m]
wc: delivery unit gets sent to the user space it becomes delivery unit, can be made of multiple authored units
13:01:51 [sh1m]
wc: percievable unit is what ends up at the user, after transformation done by things at the client tools
13:02:44 [sh1m]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
13:02:44 [Zakim]
I notice WAI_WCAG(f2f)4:00AM has restarted
13:02:45 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P11, John_Slatin
13:03:56 [sh1m]
q+
13:04:38 [sh1m]
ack sh1m
13:06:10 [sh1m]
tc: will WCAG work with content negociation?
13:06:53 [sh1m]
wc: what we are saying is that if your delivered units work with WCAG then your percieved units should probably be accessible
13:07:19 [sh1m]
wc: some authored units could be intended not to be delivered alone
13:08:10 [Kerstin]
Kerstin has joined #wai-wcag
13:08:12 [sh1m]
gvh: one point to emhpasis, you could have a server running a transcoding service, and if it is something considered by the author, you ask for a more accessible unit and it gets routed to some other server
13:08:52 [sh1m]
gvh: those would both be delivered units, if a consumer then it becomes a user agent
13:12:38 [sh1m]
yh: I would wondering if it would be useful to do a state transition diagram
13:12:47 [sh1m]
wc: wanted to do that wasn't sure how
13:12:57 [sh1m]
action: make state transition diagram
13:13:20 [MattDUB]
rrsagent, drop action 9
13:13:42 [MattDUB]
action: yvette, wendy make state transition diagram
13:14:34 [jslatin]
micropohone is picking up side conversations
13:16:05 [sh1m]
tc: will WCAG say anything about the content negocition of the delivered unit?
13:19:07 [jslatin]
ack me
13:19:36 [sh1m]
wc: IMS have some metadata which deals with this and difing the process is out of our scope
13:19:39 [sh1m]
ack John
13:20:32 [sh1m]
tc: can we say that it is ok that people can ask for something other than a WCAG delivery unit and that is ok?
13:20:49 [sh1m]
gvh: yes that could be either a sub, side or super set of WCAG
13:22:32 [sh1m]
js: looking at the relationships between mutliple authored units becoming delivery units, and delivery units becoming percieved units and how there might be more complex things than have actually been described
13:24:08 [Zakim]
+??P15
13:24:27 [David_MacDonald]
zakim, ??P15 is David_MacDonald
13:24:27 [Zakim]
+David_MacDonald; got it
13:24:31 [sh1m]
action: JS, GVH, DE, WAC to work on terms within authored units
13:26:56 [sh1m]
gvh: Next item checklist
13:27:03 [sh1m]
gvh: Also 1.1 and 1.2
13:28:05 [sh1m]
gvh: complex item, and the decsion the regarding UAAG as a baseline reflects on that.
13:28:13 [sh1m]
Also horizontal and vertical scoping
13:28:36 [sh1m]
gvh: external and internal scoping
13:28:43 [wendyout]
wendyout has joined #wai-wcag
13:29:37 [David_MacDonald]
me too wendy please befree@magma.ca
13:29:53 [wendy]
w3.org/2004/10/wcag-media-equiv2.html
13:29:56 [wendy]
oops:
13:30:00 [wendy]
http://www.w3.org/2004/10/wcag-media-equiv2.html
13:30:07 [wendy]
john and david? get that?
13:30:22 [sh1m]
gvh: horizontal and verticle scoping, sections of your web
13:30:42 [sh1m]
verticle scoping means, "this part of my website conforms at level a"
13:31:24 [Kerstin]
Kerstin has joined #wai-wcag
13:32:36 [Kerstin]
tom, just give me 5 more minutes, and I can minute ....
13:32:46 [Kerstin]
sorry, connectivity issues - thanks for covering
13:33:45 [bcaldwell]
horizontal scoping example, "my site conforms except for images"
13:35:26 [Kerstin]
gv: wendy, take it away ..... then we will take comments till 3:15, then take stock
13:35:48 [Michael]
q+
13:35:55 [sh1m]
q+ Gez
13:35:57 [Kerstin]
q+ jez
13:36:05 [Kerstin]
q- jez
13:36:05 [sh1m]
q+ Yvette
13:36:09 [Kerstin]
q+ yvette
13:36:11 [David_MacDonald]
can the mike go beside wendy
13:36:50 [Kerstin]
wc: gregg comments: we don't need or's
13:37:07 [Kerstin]
cont.: why doesn't audio description show up at level 1? one of big contentions
13:37:36 [Kerstin]
wc: audio desc's are much harder, require high skill, dep. on content, might not be as needed as captions.
13:37:50 [Kerstin]
wc: also, level 1 says we will not change the primary content -- audio desc would change that.
13:38:29 [Kerstin]
wc: time and skills make it really hard -- make it level 2, see what outrage that would create.
13:38:40 [Kerstin]
yh: audio desc?
13:38:50 [Kerstin]
wc: narration
13:39:22 [Kerstin]
wc: there are captions, audio desc -- what is ext. audio description -- pause the video track to make a more extensive desc.
13:40:02 [Kerstin]
yh: thought it was the opposite -- Dutch translation made it hard ..
13:40:28 [Kerstin]
wc: I know it's contentious, but what we have heard from designers may upset the disability community
13:40:46 [Kerstin]
wc: realtime vs. pre-recorded -- time difference is there for pre-recorded ...
13:40:54 [Kerstin]
wc: costs involved are also very diff.
13:41:07 [nabe]
nabe has joined #wai-wcag
13:41:09 [Kerstin]
wc: it is an attempt to combine 1.1 and 1.2
13:41:40 [Kerstin]
wc: it's not perfect, open issues exist
13:42:04 [Kerstin]
wc: 40-some issues logged against both, this is an attempt to address these -- rewrote all the examples to be more based on REAL content
13:42:12 [Kerstin]
wc: I also incl. definitions
13:42:23 [David_MacDonald]
+q
13:42:24 [Kerstin]
wc: from audio desc. int'l, joe clark, etc.
13:42:27 [bengtf]
bengtf has joined #wai-wcag
13:42:31 [Kerstin]
q+ dave
13:42:48 [Kerstin]
wc: scripting should be moved into 4
13:43:07 [Kerstin]
wc: remove from this area of the guidelines
13:43:10 [gregg]
q+
13:43:28 [Andi]
q+
13:44:13 [Kerstin]
mc: overall looks good - minor sugg: I can just pass on, or just go over non-editorial ones . realtime captions for live multimedia at level 2 is tough, possibly should be 3
13:44:15 [Zakim]
+??P9
13:44:16 [Kerstin]
q- Mi
13:44:39 [wendy]
zakim, ??P9 is Bengt
13:44:39 [Zakim]
+Bengt; got it
13:45:14 [Kerstin]
Gez: def. of non-text content: flash -- purpose is to provide an image, but could be defined as prog. obj.
13:45:19 [Kerstin]
wc: good example ...
13:45:23 [Kerstin]
q- G
13:45:34 [Kerstin]
q- Gez
13:45:55 [bcaldwell]
q+
13:46:37 [Kerstin]
wc: what about if creating image with flash, versus if creating more movie ...
13:46:52 [Kerstin]
andi: what about images or animation?
13:47:49 [Kerstin]
bc: maybe in this one we require a label, but in 4.2 we talk about func. equiv.
13:47:56 [Kerstin]
bc: we need to id the content
13:48:10 [Kerstin]
gv: we need to think of a way to separate presentational and interactive
13:49:55 [ben]
wc: once you get into the application box, that's an application
13:50:26 [ben]
? how does UAAG address what we otherwise cover in WCAG for interface?
13:50:46 [ben]
gv: if you have flash that plays a movie, but the flash has stop/pause/turn captions on/off etc.
13:50:49 [Kerstin]
THX, Ben.
13:51:11 [ben]
... if a movie, it's a movie, are requirements there in UAAG for what is presented?
13:51:19 [Kerstin]
gv: when you have a flash presentation, some is presentational, some is interactional, and it might be covered in both areas ...
13:51:34 [Kerstin]
gv: we can't take whole technologies and push all of them to 4
13:51:40 [wendy]
q?
13:51:44 [Kerstin]
q- Y
13:51:46 [ben]
q-
13:51:48 [Kerstin]
yh:
13:52:13 [ben]
q- bcaldwell
13:52:43 [gregg]
q+
13:52:52 [Kerstin]
q+ Yvette
13:54:44 [Kerstin]
Gregg, sorry I did take you out of line when I was trying to take Gez out -- the capital G did it. yh: if we can hold the same bar to any technologies -- if you have an applet, it should be able to use the same checklist -- if image, then alt, if control, then keyboard, etc..
13:55:39 [Kerstin]
gv: it's not covered in UAAG -- we do not say follow IBM checklist --
13:55:45 [Kerstin]
andi: the java acc is in there
13:55:58 [Kerstin]
java acc api (Correction) is in UAAG
13:56:02 [Kerstin]
reference
13:56:08 [Zakim]
-Bengt
13:56:29 [Zakim]
+bengt
13:56:38 [Kerstin]
wc: when multimedia creates its own interface elements, then follow 4.2
13:56:44 [Kerstin]
yh: but it's already there.
13:56:50 [Kerstin]
wc: but you cannot use it alone
13:57:02 [Kerstin]
yh: but it also has to follow all the other guidelines
13:57:08 [Kerstin]
wc: concerned about video games
13:57:26 [bengtf]
bengtf has joined #wai-wcag
13:57:37 [bengtf]
zakim, who is on the phone ?
13:57:37 [Zakim]
On the phone I see WG, John_Slatin, David_MacDonald, bengt
13:57:57 [Kerstin]
4.2 where it references UAAG -- 2.5, 3.6, 3.2 --
13:58:32 [Kerstin]
gv: so 6 can be dropped ....
13:58:50 [Kerstin]
wc: an example would be video game:
14:00:27 [Kerstin]
andi; if I have a java applet on a webpage, then I have to check twice.
14:01:57 [Kerstin]
* kerstin, michael think that this is not going to get resolved today, it's stalling us, we have 10 more minutes ....
14:04:06 [Kerstin]
andi -- cannot be deleted, but if we can reword to make it clearer that it's the content that needs to be evaluated and not the entire prog. interface ...
14:04:36 [Kerstin]
action: wendy and andi, research a little bit more, and move on?
14:04:37 [David_MacDonald]
Wendy I support your suggestion that descriptions belong well in Level 2 because I think descriptions can be confusing to (sighted) people with cognitive disabilities. I found the audio descriptions during the video (about Northridge Disability Center) at the CSUN breakfast opening distracting. For sure users should be able to shut them off.
14:05:10 [Kerstin]
q?
14:05:24 [David_MacDonald]
q- dave
14:05:33 [sh1m]
ack John
14:06:39 [Kerstin]
js: agree with david's last comment about audio desc, I agree that it should be toggle-able (noone should have to listen who doesn't want to, or would be confused by it); in a great deal of video
14:07:28 [Kerstin]
js: when there are no req for desc, there are lengthy patches of only audio, very disconcerting to the viewing by blind, with just music and no voice-over
14:07:40 [Kerstin]
js: that's why it's important to provide audio desc.
14:08:23 [Kerstin]
correction: john DISAGREES with David's comment
14:09:30 [Kerstin]
js: difficulty issue -- because it's controversial, I wanted to strongly suggest that it remain at level one, strongly register my opinion
14:09:44 [Kerstin]
wc: sometimes audio desc are more important than others ...
14:11:07 [Kerstin]
js: difficulty issue: it is diff to do audio desc well -- it's also diff to do captioning well. captioning is a huge stumbling block in a lot of places, because process of producing accurate transcr. for conversion is expensive and time-consuming. but I don't think it's more diff. than doing captioning well
14:11:39 [Kerstin]
wc: in all the research, captioning is accurately capturing what is said, where audio desc is more like writing a poem, where more
14:11:55 [Kerstin]
wc: processing is being done -- short timeframe, short but descr. words
14:12:29 [Kerstin]
gv: difference betw production video and informal (home movie, webcam) -- what Wendy was describing
14:12:33 [Kerstin]
q?
14:13:06 [Kerstin]
js:
14:13:53 [Kerstin]
js: if you have control over the captions, you can more easily provide audio desc -- it can be built into the script -- recorded at production of video
14:14:03 [Kerstin]
js: it doesn't solve all problems
14:14:09 [Kerstin]
gv: too much detail for today
14:14:23 [Kerstin]
gv: can we pick out points we agree on, and then points that need more discussion
14:15:08 [Kerstin]
gv: john and wendy go off and look at bifercation, trifercation (sp?) of content -- scoping -- clear that some thing would be just onerous ...
14:15:28 [Kerstin]
gv: separate these kinds of issues
14:15:30 [wendy]
action: wendy and john look at what audio descrfiption could be level 1, others could be level 2 and 3
14:16:00 [Kerstin]
yh: audio desc is technique than a requirement -- make sure that a blind person is provided with description ofthe visual display ....
14:16:04 [Kerstin]
js: synch.
14:16:32 [Kerstin]
yh: yes, but there are other options like high speed brailled, or something ...
14:16:41 [Kerstin]
wc: that sounds like How to make audio desc
14:17:12 [Kerstin]
yh: could also be a text stream that can be rendered with screenreader or braille, or some other ua ...
14:17:19 [Kerstin]
wc: or the signing avatar --
14:17:43 [Kerstin]
yh: perhaps we say 'describe the visual events to the user and the sound events to the user:"
14:18:23 [Kerstin]
gv: the visual is provided in non-visual, and the audio in non-auditory -- leave the techniques to say how
14:18:46 [ben]
q+ to say, "What happens with a real-time event that is simultaneously broadcast over the web and another medium, is this covered?"
14:19:19 [Kerstin]
michael: 'synchronized text alternative'
14:19:42 [Kerstin]
yh: you need to deliver a description of what is happening -- text stream or audio stream ...
14:20:24 [Kerstin]
wc: if uaag is our baseline, which requires captions ....
14:20:34 [Kerstin]
gv: if we just take the word "audio" out ....
14:21:04 [jslatin]
i agree with term "audio description"
14:21:35 [David_MacDonald]
i.e., Many of my Blind friends can comprehend english at a very fast speed. (ie JAWS AT 200 wpm) Much more efficient for those people if they can play descriptions quickly.
14:22:02 [jslatin]
<idiom> tag...
14:22:47 [Kerstin]
gv: if we really follow strictly the pattern, we would not say audio, we would just say description. wendy is saying ok, but we are supporting uaag, there is nothing but audio for ua, therefore it would have to be audio to match.
14:23:05 [Kerstin]
gv: when do you think in our lifetime that we could just send text, why not just call it audio?
14:23:18 [Kerstin]
gv: wendy was saying that this could be more confusing
14:23:28 [Kerstin]
gv: one is purer and one is pragmatic
14:23:35 [Kerstin]
gv:we should not answer today, because it's new
14:24:05 [Kerstin]
gv: audio is a technique for description is what yvette was saying
14:24:22 [Kerstin]
gv: in 5 years it might be easier to stream text .... rather than audio
14:24:35 [Kerstin]
gv: most of the cost is the talent, for recording actual voices
14:25:06 [Kerstin]
consistency versus pragmatism
14:25:49 [jslatin]
SMIL cd stream text & user agent cd run it thru mp3 conversion & play audio
14:26:20 [Kerstin]
john, wanna say that out loud -- david, your point too?
14:26:34 [Kerstin]
wc: I want it to be pragmatic and acceptable ...
14:27:23 [David_MacDonald]
hmm my comment is an aside
14:27:33 [Kerstin]
ok
14:27:37 [wendy]
1.3 Until user agents can automatically read aloud the text equivalent of a visual track, provide an auditory description of the important information of the visual track of a multimedia presentation. [Priority 1]
14:27:38 [Kerstin]
too late now -- gotta move on
14:28:10 [Kerstin]
Wendy, you got a hands-up support vote from John. :-)
14:28:18 [Kerstin]
q?
14:28:21 [wendy]
:)
14:28:31 [jslatin]
gen techs will talk abt when audio desc is NOT required
14:29:02 [Michael]
Michael has joined #wai-wcag
14:29:05 [Kerstin]
andi: I like being specific -- not sure multimedia is the right term, because it might be one or the other of audio or video
14:29:34 [Kerstin]
wc: comments suggest use of the term
14:30:00 [Kerstin]
andi: keeping them separate -- images, versus multimedia
14:30:12 [Kerstin]
wc: images, audio only, video only, and then multimedia?
14:30:19 [Kerstin]
andi: gotta think about that ...
14:30:31 [Kerstin]
wc: what we had before was ALL non-text content
14:32:28 [Kerstin]
andi: under pt. 2 "and captions" -- I think it should be enough to provide just one, not both captions and transcipt at level one
14:33:48 [Kerstin]
wc: for deaf-blind, but also in policy you may say a transcript is easier to provide, so you may provide a transcr immediately with presentation with live, and captions later
14:34:41 [Kerstin]
andi: don't think both should be req. at level 1
14:38:27 [Kerstin]
time delay is what is missing
14:38:46 [Kerstin]
you might not have realtime captioning, but very soon after you have a transcript
14:39:26 [shawn]
shawn has left #wai-wcag
14:42:03 [Kerstin]
wc: what I hear yvette saying is that this is a policy decision to differentiate between what is that important and what can just stay at level 2
14:43:01 [Kerstin]
I need a jumping jacks break -- I am losing concentration
14:43:07 [sh1m]
sh1m has joined #wai-wcag
14:43:27 [Kerstin]
andi still has more comments
14:43:52 [sh1m]
gvh: lvl 1 bullet 2 "transcript" and "and" are deleted
14:43:54 [sh1m]
ack andi
14:44:25 [sh1m]
gvh: concerns about live multimedia, and if captop and transcripts at lvl 1
14:45:01 [sh1m]
asw: lot of multimedia content, that could would be on web sites that won't ever been consumed by a PwD at lvl 1 there has to be a way to get it captioned.
14:45:17 [sh1m]
asw: After a while it would come back captioned
14:45:25 [sh1m]
asw: for a lot of things its not time dependent
14:45:54 [sh1m]
asw: npr is in the business of radio, they do not provide transcriptions of all their programs but you can get them
14:46:06 [sh1m]
asw: there is other content that really has to be because it is timely
14:46:31 [sh1m]
asw: have at lvl 1 to be able to get the text through the site
14:46:44 [sh1m]
lvl 2 captioning
14:46:49 [Kerstin]
q- Y
14:46:53 [sh1m]
lvl collated text transcripts
14:46:57 [sh1m]
ack Gregg
14:47:09 [sh1m]
gvh: Strategy that we have been talking about doing for all archieval
14:47:30 [sh1m]
gvh: there are concerns
14:48:19 [sh1m]
ack john
14:48:27 [sh1m]
q- ben
14:48:30 [sh1m]
q+ Gregg
14:48:36 [sh1m]
q+ Ben
14:49:11 [sh1m]
js: the reason we are talking about web content in the way we are talking about it, is to make it available to anyone at any time whenever they are
14:49:29 [sh1m]
js: we dont want to have to predict when or who those users are and when they want content
14:50:13 [sh1m]
js: there may be a user who wants content and doesn't want to wait three days even if it isn't time dependent
14:50:30 [sh1m]
js: that ideal when everyone has lots of money
14:50:37 [sh1m]
to do it in 24 hours
14:51:16 [Kerstin]
tom: concur with john here -- do I want to id myself as a disabled user, privacy concerns, etc..
14:51:56 [Kerstin]
tom: websites that req registration I don't go to -- people with disabilities do not want to have to stand up and be counted
14:52:39 [David_MacDonald]
q+
14:53:01 [sh1m]
gvh: to respond to andy, you could say nothing on the web has to be accessible except on request
14:53:25 [sh1m]
gvh: that can go in at a policy level
14:55:13 [sh1m]
yh: an alternative at level 1 might be better than something at level 1 which is really really hard
14:55:29 [sh1m]
wc: joe clark agreed with what you said
14:55:55 [sh1m]
asw: right we dont want to make it prohibitive for place like ncr
14:56:14 [Kerstin]
q?
14:56:23 [sh1m]
gvh: we have concerns about live, and even for preproduced there seems to be some issues
14:56:27 [Kerstin]
david -- do you want to speak to this item?
14:56:27 [sh1m]
q+
14:56:35 [David_MacDonald]
yes
14:57:48 [sh1m]
gvh: it either seems to be all at lvl 1 which is hard for content providers or split at higher lvls
14:57:53 [Kerstin]
ack Dav
14:57:55 [MattDUB]
q+
14:59:30 [Zakim]
-John_Slatin
14:59:30 [sh1m]
dmd: We have this on demand issue in Canada. We have two languages and someone asked if we could make things accessible on demand, and then we pointed out how difficult it would be if we only provided one language
14:59:32 [Zakim]
-David_MacDonald
14:59:40 [Zakim]
-WG
15:00:50 [Zakim]
-bengt
15:00:51 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG(f2f)4:00AM has ended
15:00:52 [Zakim]
Attendees were John_Slatin, WG, David_MacDonald, Bengt
15:10:27 [wendy]
zakim, call wendy-617
15:10:27 [Zakim]
sorry, wendy, I don't know what conference this is
15:10:36 [wendy]
zakim, this will be wcag
15:10:36 [Zakim]
ok, wendy; I see WAI_WCAG(f2f)4:00AM scheduled to start 430 minutes ago
15:10:41 [wendy]
zakim, call wendy-617
15:10:41 [Zakim]
ok, wendy; the call is being made
15:10:42 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG(f2f)4:00AM has now started
15:10:42 [Zakim]
+Wendy
15:10:58 [wendy]
david and john - we're back
15:12:40 [Zakim]
+John_Slatin
15:12:41 [Zakim]
-John_Slatin
15:12:42 [Zakim]
+John_Slatin
15:13:39 [sh1m]
action: Everyone email Scott Adams about alt text
15:15:21 [Zakim]
+??P18
15:15:36 [David_MacDonald]
zakim, ??P18 is David_MacDonald
15:15:36 [Zakim]
+David_MacDonald; got it
15:16:45 [Zakim]
+??P0
15:17:00 [David_MacDonald]
q+
15:17:04 [bengtf]
zakim, ??P0 is bengtf
15:17:04 [Zakim]
+bengtf; got it
15:18:55 [wendy]
from the 22 August 2002 WD: captions and Audio descriptions are provided for all live broadcasts that are professionally produced.
15:19:02 [wendy]
got rid of "professional" because it was not testable.
15:19:22 [wendy]
http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/WD-WCAG20-20020822/#time-based
15:19:58 [wendy]
all significant dialogue and sounds are captioned
15:20:00 [wendy]
exception: if the Web content is real-time audio-only, if not time-sensitive (news, emergency, etc.), and not interactive, a transcript or other non-audio equivalent is sufficient.
15:21:39 [sh1m]
yh: why cant we leave it upto policy makers based on economics?
15:21:59 [sh1m]
gvh: well that would put it at lvl 3 which would make it non ideal for accesibility
15:23:15 [David_MacDonald]
do we have a queue
15:23:26 [ben]
q?
15:23:55 [sh1m]
tc: why can't we have it at varying lvls?
15:25:13 [sh1m]
gvh: that is what I was suggesting, we cant have it at a fixed lvl as YH was suggesting otherwise it would either be too hard for authors and so it should be variable
15:26:17 [Kerstin]
david slow down
15:26:30 [wendy]
q+ to ask, "what about combining? want to poll people. heard from andi, wonder about others"
15:26:41 [sh1m]
gvh: if cnn have a CNN webcam in bagdad versus some camera pointed at a window
15:27:00 [sh1m]
gvh: maybe call them all live streams and use formal and informal
15:27:53 [ben]
q+
15:28:00 [sh1m]
dmd: profesional is perhaps not the best word since there are varying lvls of profesional and a single person vs a corporation is not that same
15:28:01 [David_MacDonald]
q-
15:28:02 [sh1m]
ack David
15:28:45 [sh1m]
gvh: the presentation aspect of it is irelevent in terms of which technology is used. ie java or html
15:29:33 [wendy]
ack wendy
15:29:33 [Zakim]
wendy, you wanted to ask, "what about combining? want to poll people. heard from andi, wonder about others"
15:29:35 [sh1m]
gvh: so if you make custom controls then it should be 4.2
15:29:39 [David_MacDonald]
just add to Dmd comment above. The different levels of professional affect the "ability to pay" (undue burden concept)
15:29:55 [sh1m]
wac: would like to take a poll about direction
15:30:38 [sh1m]
q?
15:30:47 [sh1m]
q+ Yvette
15:30:58 [sh1m]
q+ Matt
15:31:20 [sh1m]
q+ Wendy to say question about bification
15:31:22 [wendy]
q+ to ask, "what about combining? want to poll people. heard from andi, wonder about others"
15:31:45 [sh1m]
bc: similar about straw poll to wac
15:31:56 [bengtf]
zakim, who is making noise ?
15:32:09 [Zakim]
bengtf, listening for 11 seconds I could not identify any sounds
15:32:18 [sh1m]
bc: also ASW had good point about the lack of use of multimedia, and having different bars muddies the water
15:32:30 [sh1m]
bc: so they cant set the multimedia points aside
15:32:47 [sh1m]
bc: what happens about mixed medium events which are done simultaniously
15:33:58 [sh1m]
gvh: rebroadcast might be redifined as rebroadcast and live
15:34:08 [sh1m]
sorry live similtanious
15:35:46 [sh1m]
mcm: jumping back to conformance lvls
15:36:13 [sh1m]
mcm: it seems to me that we used to have as our lvls of conformance that a was what was required and you worked your way up
15:36:33 [sh1m]
mcm: the problem that we are having here is that accessibility in nontext media is 5 years behind everythign else
15:36:54 [sh1m]
mcm: the vast majority of things we have on the web, webcams, the vast majority are content free
15:37:53 [sh1m]
mcm: these are toy implementations, lvl A is for text content the lvl AA is for multimedia too
15:37:57 [wendy]
talking about rebroadcast w/captions, here's a quote from joe clark about his project with CBC: I had a project with CBC last year (it?s still online) that simply decoded TV closed captions. Dirt cheap, anyone could watch, technically simple. Of course, there?s still the problem of picking and choosing which programming will be captioned. For any broadcast program with TV captions, you can immediately reuse them, which is something nobody is doing.
15:38:02 [wendy]
http://www.digital-web.com/articles/joe_clark/
15:39:41 [sh1m]
tc: I don't think that is fair to the users
15:40:02 [ben]
q- ben
15:40:17 [ben]
q- Matt
15:40:23 [sh1m]
mcm: you aren't talking about doubling the number of hours, its like 20 times more time effort expenditure to do that
15:40:34 [sh1m]
mcm: three times as much time
15:40:44 [sh1m]
mcm: it makes sense to say that you can't do this
15:40:52 [sh1m]
gvh: its like undue burden
15:41:33 [sh1m]
gvh: to capture the concept, maybe what we are trying to make judgements based on ratio of effort
15:42:15 [sh1m]
gvh: adding alt text is not that much more, doing that for an informal webcam is enormous, doing that for a production movie its not that much
15:42:25 [sh1m]
gvh: maybe that ratio is something worth considering
15:44:23 [sh1m]
tc: not objecting to that idea, asking if we can start with accessiblity for users according to UAAG and then water down sensibly
15:44:40 [sh1m]
js: a lot of the discussion about captioning and its difficulty is based on its context
15:45:26 [sh1m]
js: I think it is at least reasonable to speculate that in 2 or 3 years captioning may not be easy but certainly a lot easier
15:47:16 [sh1m]
js: when trying to figure out where trying to put this stuff, lvl 3 maybe a place to put things which are applicable to not all sites
15:47:21 [sh1m]
ack john
15:47:23 [sh1m]
ack y
15:47:43 [sh1m]
yh: I was looking through this and we need to specifically address live images
15:48:37 [wendy]
http://www.w3.org/2004/08/wcag-media-equiv.html
15:48:46 [sh1m]
yh: for example satelitte images which are refreshed every few seconds and you couldn't just update the alt text every few seconds
15:48:56 [wendy]
http://broadband.motorola.com/dvr/dct6208_multimedia_demo.asp
15:49:11 [sh1m]
gvh: treat them as slow movies
15:49:19 [sh1m]
wc: but they are interactive!
15:49:36 [sh1m]
gvh: interactive with any media or multimedia fall into the same category
15:49:36 [wendy]
http://www.ghcc.msfc.nasa.gov/GOES/goeswestpacus.html
15:51:30 [sh1m]
yh: suggested you use metadata to make an alternative
15:52:55 [sh1m]
wac: using the pramaeters to create the alt based on what it is doing not the content
15:53:05 [sh1m]
gvh: consensus of the group
15:53:40 [sh1m]
yh: more alternatives than what it was, maybe consider ben's point about two guidelines for multimedia and image, split but not back to how it was
15:53:48 [sh1m]
gvh: one or split into more than one
15:54:05 [sh1m]
gvh: images, multimedia, or other non text content
15:54:39 [sh1m]
gvh: if you wanted to do dipping, ie moving lvls around, its easier to do with seperate guidelines
15:55:15 [Kerstin]
wendy - are you going to state what the joining of the two would be for us to vote on?
15:56:08 [wendy]
currently: provide alternatives for non-text content
15:56:19 [sh1m]
q?
15:56:26 [wendy]
ack wendy
15:56:26 [Zakim]
Wendy, you wanted to say question about bification and to ask, "what about combining? want to poll people. heard from andi, wonder about others"
15:56:37 [David_MacDonald]
i vote to devide
15:56:41 [David_MacDonald]
divide
15:58:30 [wendy]
10 to divide and 3 to stay one
15:58:38 [sh1m]
to consider dividing
16:00:46 [bengtf]
bengtf has joined #wai-wcag
16:02:59 [Andi]
gv> planning the issues summary - how do we get through all the issues?
16:04:03 [Zakim]
-bengtf
16:04:51 [Andi]
wc proposes a vacation as a reward for getting to Final Recommendation by a certain date
16:05:20 [Andi]
wc: next public draft 8th November, review period ending 3rd December
16:05:38 [Kerstin]
oh my guiness!
16:07:12 [Andi]
wc: propose we take the last two weeks of December off, plan on publishing next internal draft at the end of January
16:07:28 [bengtf]
bengtf has joined #wai-wcag
16:08:35 [bengtf]
zakim, what conference
16:08:35 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'what conference', bengtf
16:08:37 [Andi]
wc: last call in February
16:08:38 [bengtf]
zakim, what conference ?
16:08:38 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, bengtf.
16:09:21 [Michael]
zakim, list conferences
16:09:21 [Zakim]
I see XML_SchemaWG()11:00AM, WAI_WCAG(f2f)4:00AM active
16:09:22 [Zakim]
also scheduled at this time is SW_SWAD()12:00PM
16:10:17 [Andi]
if go into technical plenary with last call, could be actively soliciting implementations
16:10:24 [Michael]
I think that's because we're officially at the end of the scheduled time...
16:10:41 [bengtf]
yeah, think so too ..
16:10:43 [Andi]
last call more likely in March
16:10:57 [Andi]
gv: need to have a plan to get to this.
16:11:16 [Michael]
let me see if we're gonna be a while and get a new conf code, when I can interrupt
16:11:31 [Andi]
gv: suggests we go back to something that worked very well in the past - divide up guidelines and issues and make proprosals
16:12:16 [David_MacDonald]
phone line sound like underwater all of a sudden
16:12:33 [wendy]
zakim, room for 5?
16:12:34 [Zakim]
ok, wendy; conference Team_(wai-wcag)16:12Z scheduled with code 83261 (TEAM1) for 60 minutes until 1712Z
16:12:51 [wendy]
zakim, drop wendy
16:12:51 [Zakim]
Wendy is being disconnected
16:12:51 [Michael]
everyone dial back in with that code
16:12:52 [Zakim]
-Wendy
16:12:57 [Zakim]
-John_Slatin
16:12:59 [Zakim]
-David_MacDonald
16:13:00 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG(f2f)4:00AM has ended
16:13:01 [Zakim]
Attendees were Wendy, John_Slatin, David_MacDonald, bengtf
16:13:10 [Zakim]
Team_(wai-wcag)16:12Z has now started
16:13:17 [Zakim]
+John_Slatin
16:13:23 [Michael]
zakim, this is Team_(wai-wcag)
16:13:23 [Zakim]
Michael, this was already Team_(wai-wcag)16:12Z
16:13:24 [Zakim]
ok, Michael; that matches Team_(wai-wcag)16:12Z
16:13:33 [Zakim]
+??P9
16:13:36 [jslatin]
i'm in 83261 now, come on in! water's fine
16:13:54 [Michael]
takes us a while to figure out the phone system
16:14:11 [Zakim]
+bengt
16:14:21 [David_MacDonald]
zakim, ??p9 is David_MacDonald
16:14:21 [Zakim]
+David_MacDonald; got it
16:15:00 [wendy]
zakim, call wendy
16:15:00 [Zakim]
I am sorry, wendy; I do not know a number for wendy
16:15:18 [wendy]
zakim, call Wendy
16:15:18 [Zakim]
I am sorry, wendy; I do not know a number for Wendy
16:15:30 [gregg]
a number for wendy?
16:15:53 [gregg]
zakim call wendy 617
16:16:14 [gregg]
zakim, call wendy 617
16:16:14 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'call wendy 617', gregg
16:16:20 [wendy]
zakim, call wendy-617
16:16:20 [Zakim]
ok, wendy; the call is being made
16:16:21 [Zakim]
+Wendy
16:17:45 [Andi]
gv: guidelines have all been assigned
16:17:54 [Andi]
gv: have 100 points to address
16:18:47 [Andi]
bc: issues related to conformance, general, glossary, introduction, mapping, how the guideline is presented and structured, translation, quality assurance are not assigned
16:19:18 [Andi]
action: John Slatin to work on Introduction but thinks it can't really be completed until the rest of the doc is more "done"
16:20:16 [Andi]
guidelines assignments are in last week's minutes
16:21:01 [wendy]
http://www.w3.org/2004/10/14-wai-wcag-irc.html#T21-53-31
16:21:19 [Andi]
1.1, 1.2 Wendy
16:21:28 [Andi]
1.3 Yvette
16:21:31 [Andi]
1.4 David
16:21:39 [Andi]
2.1 Mike
16:21:52 [Andi]
2.2 Roberto Costaldo
16:21:55 [Andi]
2.3 Gregg
16:21:58 [Andi]
2.4 Yvette
16:23:00 [jslatin]
breaking up badly
16:23:08 [David_MacDonald]
you guys are under the ocean again
16:23:45 [wendy]
it's vonage. there's nothing we can fix.
16:23:50 [wendy]
is it worth keeping us all on the phone?
16:24:01 [David_MacDonald]
yup
16:24:12 [Andi]
gv: is to read all the issues, summarize, close what you can, make proposals for rest
16:24:25 [David_MacDonald]
it may clear up
16:24:26 [jslatin]
thanks
16:25:24 [David_MacDonald]
do we close them after addressing them or do we wait for group to close it
16:25:35 [Andi]
3.1 John Slatin
16:25:56 [Andi]
4.1 Ben
16:26:04 [Andi]
4.2 Jason
16:27:03 [Andi]
2.5 Andi
16:27:26 [Andi]
Mapping - Andi
16:28:41 [Andi]
3.2 Kerstin
16:28:47 [Andi]
Translations - Kerstin
16:28:58 [David_MacDonald]
the quality is good agai
16:29:35 [Andi]
Presentation and Structure - Ben
16:30:32 [Andi]
General - Ben and Wendy will make a first pass to see what can be handled or closed quickly then try to divide the rest up into chunks
16:30:38 [sh1m]
and Tom
16:30:39 [wendy]
ben? 29 October at 11 am your time?
16:31:19 [sh1m]
-Tom
16:31:33 [Andi]
quality assurance - Gregg
16:31:35 [bengtf]
anything for me ?
16:32:39 [Andi]
Conformance - Gregg
16:34:26 [Andi]
Glossary - Don
16:35:25 [Kerstin]
quality assurance, with just 1 issue, is going to Gregg :-)
16:36:48 [Andi]
gv: summaries have already been done if items are still open include recommendations in new summary
16:37:52 [Andi]
bc: if something has been resolved, put description to the mailing list, put link to the mailing list post in Bugzilla and mark "pending"
16:37:59 [Andi]
in Bugzilla
16:39:17 [Andi]
gv: divide summaries into editorial, proposals we need to discuss, and things you don't know what to do about
16:40:23 [Andi]
gv: post the complete guideline with all the changes being suggested, with list of all the changes made after it.
16:41:10 [Andi]
as: what are we issuing as the 8th November draft
16:41:25 [Andi]
?
16:41:49 [Andi]
wc: wanted to have 1.1 and 1.2 done
16:43:21 [Andi]
priority is to have Ben and Matt complete their UAAG evaluation before we put it in the draft
16:44:08 [Michael]
Michael has joined #wai-wcag
16:45:49 [Andi]
bc & as: perhaps we should delay the public draft until we have substantive changes
16:46:20 [Andi]
wc proposes 17th November but there is a publishing freeze then
16:46:47 [Kerstin]
either January or November 17thy
16:47:15 [Andi]
gv: have to do evaluations ASAP
16:48:30 [Andi]
wc: if we aim to publish on Friday, 18th November, have to be finished by Monday, 15th November
16:48:55 [Kerstin]
approvals on Thursday the 11th
16:49:51 [jslatin]
i'll have gen techs for 2.4 and proposed rewording for GL 2.4, plus issues & a start on 3.1
16:51:05 [Kerstin]
this is two weeks from today, which will never work
16:51:14 [Kerstin]
because several people are out for all of next week
16:51:37 [Andi]
Kerstin, are you taking over the minutes?
16:51:40 [Kerstin]
gv: summaries done as soon as possible -- for those in next week, and let's knock off a few guidelines
16:51:42 [Kerstin]
I can
16:51:47 [Andi]
ok
16:51:59 [Kerstin]
unless you really WANNA do minutes ...
16:52:01 [Kerstin]
:-)
16:52:06 [Kerstin]
long meetings?
16:52:40 [Kerstin]
ben: we just assigned priority to guideline review, but earlier in the week, we assigned priority to techniques ...
16:52:53 [Kerstin]
gv: clean out low hanging fruit from issue lists
16:54:14 [Kerstin]
only public comments have the process associated with it
16:54:19 [Kerstin]
q+ yvette
16:54:45 [Kerstin]
js: can we send the same email to everyone ... 'your issue is addressed in the list below'
16:54:58 [gregg]
ack j
16:55:08 [Kerstin]
wc: no, individual responses are required
16:55:19 [Kerstin]
wc: we want to practise and get in shape for last call ....
16:58:04 [Kerstin]
wc: we have the overview of wcag 2, shawn has been working very hard to get something there for next public draft -- introduction, overview ...
16:58:29 [Kerstin]
js: working on techniques for 2.4 -- just about done -- will allow me to re-word sc for 2.4 ...
17:00:07 [Kerstin]
wc: 1.1/1.2, uaag baseline, authored unit/delivered unit relation to conformance, definitions of text, nontext content, progr object, and unicode ..., general techniques for 2.4 and rewording -- final piece, overview
17:00:30 [Kerstin]
wc: lots of people have not seen techniques docs
17:00:42 [Kerstin]
wc: overview will be a huge change
17:02:16 [gregg]
ack y
17:02:18 [Kerstin]
q?
17:04:45 [Andi]
bye bye
17:04:48 [Andi]
Andi has left #wai-wcag
17:04:49 [Kerstin]
bye Andi!
17:05:36 [Kerstin]
we have the hit the end of the agenda ....
17:05:38 [Kerstin]
gv
17:07:14 [nabe]
nabe has left #wai-wcag
17:07:27 [David_MacDonald]
by everyone
17:07:31 [Zakim]
-Wendy
17:07:32 [Zakim]
-John_Slatin
17:07:35 [Zakim]
-David_MacDonald
17:07:40 [Zakim]
-bengt
17:07:41 [Zakim]
Team_(wai-wcag)16:12Z has ended
17:07:42 [Zakim]
Attendees were John_Slatin, bengt, David_MacDonald, Wendy
17:28:25 [David_MacDonald]
David_MacDonald has joined #wai-wcag